The Mission Driven Mom Podcast
Audrey Rindlisbacher
For moms and women who want to increase their confidence, and discover and develop their unique gifts, while strengthening themselves and their families. *Over 50 5-Star Reviews*
Episodes
EP 176 Everything Right and Wrong
Thirty-two years ago I got married. And when I got married, I made a contract. It wasn't the marriage contract. (Of course I signed a marriage contract!) It was a contract with myself that I didn't realize I was making. It took me a long time to see that I had made a bargain with myself, a bargain with life, a bargain with God. And it went something like this: If I do X, then I'm going to get Y. Resources from the Episode: The Mission Driven Life: The 7 Laws of Life Mission and How to Live Them Episode 174: Why Am I Struggling? AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 176: Everything Right and Wrong A Contract I Didn't Know I Made Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Thank you for joining me today. Now, I want to tell you something that I did 32 years ago. I got married. And when I got married, I made a contract. And it wasn't the marriage contract. Of course, I signed a marriage contract. But I made a contract with myself that I didn't realize I was making. It took me a long time to realize that I had kind of made a bargain with myself, made a bargain with life, made a bargain with God. And it went something like this: "If I do X, then I'm going to get Y." And I put all the rules in place. Now, I didn't just do it blindly. There were people around me that had promised me that if I did certain things, I'd get certain outcomes. There were books by professionals that said, "Yes, we see that when XYZ happens in a home, or when parents do these certain things, then all of these certain outcomes happen." So for example: if I'm a loyal, dedicated wife, and faithful, and loving, then we will have a peaceful marriage. Things will go along blissfully and be great. That's one of the bargains I made with myself. One of the rules of life that I thought was real, or one of the outcomes I thought I could control. I told myself, if I live my faith and I take my kids to church every single week, and we pray all the time, and we read scripture, and we do all the things, then none of my children will struggle with their faith. [I made a deal with myself about our finances?] And if I stay home, if I work on my own education, if I homeschool them, then they'll all have perfectly beautiful relationships with each other, because they will have spent all this time together and they'll have all these shared memories, and then in their adulthood, they'll be super close. And if I teach them these certain things, then they won't have these certain problems, or we won't go through these certain pain points. It's so funny to think back on it now and to realize that I was doing that, but I really didn't understand what I was doing. I really didn't know I was doing that to myself. I just didn't realize how much I was doing. I guess looking back now, I can see that in my youthful exuberance, I was ready to make any sacrifice. I was ready to do whatever it took. I was ready to be the mom, be the wife, be the money manager, be the homeschool educator, be the friend, be the whatever. And I really thought that if I did my part, then things would go, not perfectly, but pretty great. They'd turn out pretty close to the picture that I developed in my own mind about who we were going to be 30 years from then. When Life Happened Audrey: Well, life happened and things got harder. The marriage was a struggle, and the finances were a struggle, and my children did go through hard things, because they're human and they're going to. [There was just all this pain?], and I didn't like it. And I'm a conscientious person, and I'm willing to do the work, and I'm willing to make the sacrifice, and I'm willing to say I'm sorry or regroup or read the book or whatever. And so I just figured, "Well, I must be the problem. I must have done something wrong." And I would go over my past, and I would beat myself up, and I would think about the things that I had done wrong. If we hadn't moved so much. You know, maybe if I hadn't homeschooled so much. Maybe, who knows? I don't know. A Wrong Belief Audrey: And what I didn't realize is that I was holding this really wrong belief. What was at the heart of all of this is the question that we're exploring today: "What if I do all the right things and things don't turn out right?" My belief was, if I'm a good person and I do all the right things, then we'll have this perfect outcome. Like, I will take on all of the mistakes and troubles that other people might have to have, if I need to, so that they can forgo that pain. But you know what? That's just not how life works. And what I've had to learn is that there are things that I do control and there are things that I don't control. And I know that sounds very basic. But what's hard, I think for us as moms especially, is that we have these little beings that come into our world, most often as babies, and they are completely helpless. And we have to have the wisdom to help them grow and become, and go from being 100% dependent on us to 100% self-reliant. And that is a big gap to bridge. Now, we have a lot of years to get there, but it's not always easy to know the best way to go about it. It's tough. But when I started to think about the fact that there are things I do control and things that I don't control, it really started to help me to parse out this wrong belief and make sense of it and start to acquaint myself better with the truth. What We Don't Control Audrey: Just think about all the things that we don't control. We don't control our spouse. We don't control our children. We don't control our friends. We don't control the people around us. We don't control anybody. They have their agency. No matter how old they are, they still have agency. Even if that agency is within stricter bounds, they can still choose. We don't control the circumstances that we're born into. We don't control the place, you know, the nation that we're born into, or many of the circumstances around us. We don't control the culture, the messaging, the government. There are so many things we don't control. What We Do Control Audrey: And when you think about that, and you start to really think about, "Well, okay, then what is it that I control?" the truth is really, I mostly just control me. I control my beliefs, my habits, my attitudes, my behaviors, my responses, my decisions, the way I think, the way I live, the example I set. I mostly just control me. Control Is Not the Same as Power Audrey: And this is why it's so important for us to realize this when we start thinking, because it's so easy to go down that rabbit hole. How is it that I'm doing everything right? Aren't I hitting the checklist? Didn't I have the children? Aren't I a loyal spouse? Don't I show up every day for the kids? And then things aren't working out right. Why does it look like this? Why does it look so messy? We have to remind ourselves that control is not the same as power. We don't control very much, but we have almost limitless power, because we have complete power over ourselves. And if we don't always have the power over ourselves and with ourselves that we want, we can grow into that. We can choose more of that. Why Even Bother? Audrey: And that's the answer to a question that we're tempted to ask ourselves sometimes. And that is: "Why even bother if I can't control the outcome?" And it goes back to the same point. It's because it matters immensely what you choose, because every single choice determines who you become. And who you are becoming matters immensely. It means whether or not your needs are met, the quality of life that you have every single day, the example that you're setting, the leader that you're being, the things that you're learning, the habits that you're establishing, the ways that you think and reason, the principles and truths that you live and exemplify. All of those things matter immensely. They matter to you, because when you do those things, when you develop gifts and use them in the service of others, you are the one that gets to experience the joy of that. You are the one that gets up every day and lives with yourself every moment of every day, your entire life. When you see that you have immense power and incredible potential, that is an incredible insight. And it answers that question: what do you do if you're doing all the things right and you're not getting the right outcomes? You can accept that there are things you don't control, and the outcomes are not often yours to make happen. But all the way along, you're learning. You're growing. You're becoming. Every time you make a decision and it doesn't turn out the way you want it to, you get to evaluate, and you get to grow and learn from it. Anytime you're presented with an opportunity to develop your abilities in any way, in how you think and your understanding, in new skills, new truths, new principles, you can embrace those opportunities. And then there's more of you. And then what happens is that you're taking loving actions towards yourself by deciding to discipline yourself in cooperation with God's laws, with those truths. And when you do that, you have tremendous power. And it's okay if things don't always go the way you want them to, because you always have the assurance that you are becoming through it all. And as you take those loving actions towards yourself, you're gaining in liking yourself, because you're living with you, and you really do deserve to love and like yourself. And you can remember that what you learn, and how you respond, and the quality of your relationships, and how you show up is yours: those beliefs, those actions, those responses. And what's not yours is [everybody else, and the culture, and the circumstances, and the past?]. This Week's Practice Audrey: Okay, I want you to try this this week. I want you to sit with yourself and think about some area that you're struggling with. And then I want you to actually take a couple of minutes and journal about this situation, and ask yourself what you can control and what you can't control. And I want you to try to release some of the things that you can't control. I want you to ask yourself this question: "Where in this situation do I still have power?" And when you do that, you're releasing control and you're reclaiming power. And you're reminding yourself that the outcome doesn't matter. It's really all about the fact that you still have power, even when you don't control everything or everyone. Coming Up Next Audrey: This leads us to an additional question. Even when we claim that power and we know what we need to do, why is it still sometimes hard to do that? That's a question that we'll be exploring next week. So join me then. Thank you for staying with me today. Please put in the comments what you're going to let go of and what power you're going to reclaim this week. And I will see you next time.
EP 175 Trusting Myself
Do you ever wish you just knew? Knew whether to keep your child home or send them to school. Knew whether to take the job or make the move. A lot of women tell me that's what self-trust is: if you really trusted yourself, you would just know. I don't think that's true. And I learned it sitting alone in my car on a cold afternoon, trying to make a really big decision for our family. Resources from the Episode: The Mission Driven Life: The 7 Laws of Life Mission and How to Live Them Episode 174: Why Am I Struggling? AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 175: Trusting Myself What Is Self-Trust? Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. You know what a lot of women will say self-trust is? "Well, if you trust yourself, then you just know. You know what you should do about your child. You know whether or not you should move. You know which job you should take. You know how to manage all the things. You just somehow magically, intuitively have good discernment and good judgment and good decision-making skills. You always know what you should do, and then you really trust yourself." I want to tell you a story about when I was in a difficult situation and I had to make a pretty big decision. A Decision About My Son Audrey: I have six children, and a few years ago, at this point in our family's journey, we had two that had left home. The oldest at home was doing a modified homeschooling. He was going to the public school for a couple of classes, doing some stuff on his own, and really busy with work and music and all of his things. The next child was doing half-time school at a private school. So they were both busy with their friends. They were in their teenage years. They had educational structure around what they were doing. And then there's a big gap, about a five-year gap, and then my son. The two at the end are about 18 months apart. They're really close. My youngest daughter had just been accepted onto a gymnastics team, and she was going to start getting up early in the morning and going to the gym and then doing some alternative school stuff later in the day. Well, this left my number five, my boy. And I had a decision to make. We weren't hardcore homeschoolers, in the sense that it wasn't everybody homeschooled every year, but we were definitely very much on the alternative path. There was some charter school, there was some private school, there was some public school, there was a lot of homeschool. Most of them were home most years, but there was any variety of that. I was just always trying to be open-minded and do what seemed like it would be best for them that school year. So we have this new situation where basically the teenagers are doing their thing. I'm checking in with them. I'm around for them. But then I have this one child, and it was going to be just me and him. Now, that could be a good thing. It depends on how you frame that. And I needed to decide if I was going to send him to school or not, or if he and I were just going to be home doing our thing. There were a lot of factors that played into that decision. There were a lot of things to consider. A Different Way of Deciding Audrey: Now, of course, I did the traditional things. I talked to my husband, I talked to him, I talked to friends, I prayed, I thought about it. But what I have to tell you about this decision is that it was a turning point for me in my life. By the time I got to this decision, I was self-aware enough to know that I was going through a different decision-making process than I had in the past. I now had enough of an education, an education for real life, an education that taught me to think in terms of truths and principles and fundamentals, that my decision-making around this situation was actually fundamentally different from the way I had made decisions previously. And it was recognizable to me, so it was like a turning point. I was like: "Wow, I am going about this so differently than I used to go about making these kinds of decisions and judgments about myself and my family." Can We Always Trust Our Feelings? Audrey: Now, our culture says that you should follow your heart, that you have your own truth, that you need to trust yourself and go with your gut. And I'm not saying there isn't something to be said for listening to your intuition, and definitely your conscience. But I want to push back on that narrative, because you and I both know that we can't always trust our feelings. We can't even always trust our thoughts. We don't always know what's right and what's best, and we don't always prove to ourselves that we do. When we're trying to make decisions, sometimes we lack information. Sometimes we're afraid. Sometimes our feelings get in the way. Sometimes we're just relinquishing responsibility by letting the expert make the decision. We're pretending it's our decision, but we're actually leaning on some expert from a book, from a video, from the doctor's office, whatever it is, instead of really owning that decision for ourselves and doing the hard work of discernment and judgment and decision-making. Because this whole concept of self-trust, of having confidence in ourselves and our ability to judge and discern, of being able to grow in trusting ourselves and our decisions, is not about making the best decision every time. It's not about doing this perfectly. It's about knowing how to judge and discern from fundamentals, and knowing how to think it through in a better, more productive way, and then trusting that even if you don't get the perfect result from the decision you make right now, you can take responsibility for that decision and you can learn from whatever the outcome is. You can't always control the outcome, but you can control the decision. Blaine and His First Teacher Audrey: If you listened to the podcast last week, you heard the story of my husband Blaine learning to play the viola. One of the things I didn't go into a lot of detail about when I told that story was the first [teacher he found?] a couple of years ago, here in the DFW area. She's a super duper nice lady, a very hard worker, a very great violist, and probably, to many of her students, a good teacher. But she was brought up in Poland, and she used to tell Blaine these stories all the time about how she was taught to play viola in Poland: how they would smack her hands with a ruler and tell her she was a loser and kind of just shame her, all of these really hard things that happened to her as she was being taught. And she started at a really young age. I mean, it's been her whole life. She's a professional violist. She's a professional teacher. She's really, really good. And she's had all this teaching and instruction all of her life. And so Blaine had every reason to just completely trust her judgment, to lean into "what she said goes." And he did that for a long time. She says this is what I need. She's put me on this piece of music. She says this is what I should practice this week. I mean, he even paid her extra to practice with him every day for a few months, and they would get on Zoom calls and try to practice together. He went way above and beyond, and it was hard not to think: "I must be the problem. I really must be a lost cause. There must be no way for me to ever get good at the viola." And he had those thoughts and he had those moments. But luckily, he came back to viola at a much older age, much more mature. And he's had a wonderful education and all of these experiences. And so he looked at this situation and was able to reason and think it through. It took him a while to get to the point where he started asking questions like, "Have I really actually been given the fundamentals?" But he was definitely looking at the fruits of this experience with her. And the fruits were that he constantly felt frustrated, overwhelmed, and unsuccessful, that she just kept telling him to do more of the same, and that he had tried that for well over a year. And so he had the wisdom and the life experience to ask himself better questions as he tried to make the decision about what he was going to do. Because he could have just given up again, and it was maybe tempting for a moment to do that. He could have just said, "I'm the common denominator here. I've had another professional teacher. I just can't figure this out." But instead he started asking himself better questions, like, "How could we do this differently? What other teachers are out there? What would other teachers do? Maybe I should compare her teaching to some other teachers." And because he took the time to do that, and, like I said last time, called all these viola [teachers?] and hired two new teachers and tried them all out, he was able to trust his judgment when it finally came to, "I now have the right teacher." The lack of fruits with one teacher and the fruits with the other teacher were a huge indication that this was the right teacher for him, this was the right education, and that, just from a principled and true standpoint, she was teaching him fundamentals, and that was making all the difference for him. Not What to Think, but How to Think Audrey: This is the way in which we learn not what to think but how to think. This is so important to our ability to grow in our capacity to trust our judgments and decisions, and to make the best decision that we can, and then let go of the outcomes and not just constantly judge ourselves. I mean, one of the things that we do is say, "Well, if I had a good outcome, then I made the right decision. If it has a bad outcome, I made the wrong decision." We can't live our lives that way. It's miserable. We have to gain the capacity to trust ourselves, and to trust, like we talked about last time, that when we slow down and think and we find a truth that we know, we can then start to build plans and decisions and our way forward around our capacity to make good decisions. A Three-Step Process Audrey: So I want to encourage you to try a three-step process this week. The first thing that I want you to do is think about this area where you feel frustrated or overwhelmed or you want a different outcome, just like Blaine was feeling with his viola. Maybe this is some expert you're working with and you're just not experiencing the fruits that they're promising you. Maybe it's something that you have tried to fix for a long time. I don't know what it is, but I want you to sit with yourself and get really honest about reality. This is something that Blaine and I both had to do. I'm looking at the situation with my son. Should I homeschool him this year? What's the best thing to do moving forward? And I needed to assess reality. What's my capacity? What's his capacity? Who am I? Who is he? What are the circumstances in our home? What are the opportunities outside our home that are available for him? And what do I know about our experiences in the past? What does that help me project upon the future? Really getting down to what's reality. Same with Blaine. What's the reality? "I'm not thriving. I have tried practicing three hours by myself. I have tried practicing like crazy with a professor. I have tried practicing like crazy with this viola professional. And in every case, I am not really progressing." So what's my reality? What are the fruits that I have? How can I be honest with myself about what's actually going on? And then the next thing I want you to do is try to identify the fundamentals. This goes a little bit back to last week, in terms of asking yourself, "What do I know to be true in this situation?" in order to stop just spinning your wheels with useless effort. The fundamentals can be truths. They can be principles. They can be other kind of hard-ish facts. And I'll give you a quick example in just a minute. I'll help you understand a little bit what I'm talking about on this point when I tell you the rest of the story about my son and homeschooling him. But you need to get at the fundamentals. You know what the reality is. What are the fundamentals that govern this thing? What are some things that you know to be true and real outside of just the moment that you're in? What could play into the decision? And then I want you to make the best decision that you can and let go of the outcome, and recognize that no matter what happens, you can learn from the outcome to make a better decision next time. You have done your due diligence on this, and you're going to trust yourself that this is the best decision that you can make, and you're going to let go of what happens next. And then, when faced with the new decision, you're going to do your best again. You're going to grow in your capacity to trust yourself. Homeschooling Is Not a Principle Audrey: So, going back to my experience with homeschooling this child. I assessed reality, like I explained with our circumstances. And then I looked at the fundamentals. What did I know? I actually sat with myself and I wrote down some core principles of education. What I didn't used to know, but what I knew by this point, was that homeschooling is not a true principle. It is an application. And because I knew that, I was able to recognize that because it was an application, I could choose it or not choose it, and it wasn't right or wrong. It was just a decision, and that helped me let go. I knew other educational principles. And of course, what I knew was the fundamental first principle was that I am responsible for the education of my child. So, starting at that first principle, I was able to write down some educational principles: classics, original writings, group discussion, great mentors, things like that that I knew that I wanted for my children. I wanted them for my son. And so I got clear on: what are the fundamental principles that govern this area? What are the principles of our relationship? Good, open communication, trust, honesty. What are some of those principles that govern our ability to work together and to kind of navigate whether or not we were going to homeschool? This decision in general was going to affect him profoundly. And then I also looked at things like values, which are not principles, but which are very important to the individual. Values are things like liberty or patience or loyalty or trust. And good values are just good values, but not everyone has the same values. And I knew enough about myself to know what my values were: that education was a top value, that the relationship was a top value, and hard work, whatever those were. So I was able to actually write down some key values that I wanted to honor in this decision. So now I have some principles I want to honor and some values I want to honor. And then I also got to the fundamentals of what I knew about him and me. I had done the work on some self-assessments and some different personality things. And they're not hard and fast. We are [masterpieces in the works?]. We are growing and becoming. And so I know that it's not always hard and fast, but I knew some things. One of the things that I knew is that he's extremely extroverted, probably the most extroverted of all my children. In fact, later on, when he was a little bit older, he did end up taking a couple of additional tests about extroversion from a couple of other sources, and he claimed he was 99% extroverted. I knew that about him. I knew what commitments I had made to other projects and other things that I had going on. I knew the commitment that I needed to make for the one daughter to continue to do her private schooling, and to be a support and an asset to the other kids at home, et cetera, et cetera. The Decision in the Car Audrey: So I had a lot of fundamentals to weigh, and they empowered me immensely. I remember sitting in the car. I went on a drive. I was going to go to the park, but it ended up being too cold, so I ended up sitting in the car. I knew I needed some time alone to really think it through and make some final decisions. And my decision-making process was so concretely different. This was a really big decision for me. It was really at the heart of my core values and some key principles I cared deeply about. And him, and the relationship, and his progress, and his education were all super important to me. And then I was able to make the decision that could honor who we were as people. I could honor the relationship. I could honor the educational principles, and I could honor our values, by choosing very specifically the charter school that could honor the educational principles that I believed in. So I handpicked a charter school, and I inconvenienced myself to get him there, because it wasn't close to home. But that was the decision that I was able to come to, and I felt so much peace about it. And everything didn't go perfectly when he went to the charter school. He had some really good experiences and he had some hard experiences, and he grew as a person, and I grew, and our relationship was solid. And I was at peace with it and he was at peace with it, because we knew why we were making that decision. So look at reality, consider the fundamentals, and then make your decision and learn from it. Maybe the next year, hypothetically, after a year at the charter school, I decide not to do the charter school anymore. Who knows? But that's the decision I made then. I've always been very at peace with it, and grateful that that's what we decided, and empowered by the way that the decision was made. Coming Up Next Audrey: So that's my homework for you this week. I hope you will spend some time doing that in some area of your life. I know that as you do that, it still may be hard to let go of the outcomes. And we're going to talk next week about how you can follow this process and make judgments and decisions that you feel peaceful about, and what to do when you try really hard, and you try to make the right decisions, and it doesn't look like everything turns out right. What do you do about that? We'll talk about that next week. Thank you so much for joining me. Please share your insights in the comments below, all of your takeaways from this three-step process and how it worked out for you. Thanks for being here. I'll see you next time.
EP 174 Why Am I Struggling?
If you've been trying your heart out to be the very best mom or wife or steward of your health, and you're not making much progress, please stop beating yourself up. It really may not be an effort issue. Resources from the Episode: The Mission Driven Life: The 7 Laws of Life Mission and How to Live Them Episode 172: Confusion, Clarity & Vision with Jennifer Hudye AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 174: Why Am I Struggling? Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Recently, I've been thinking a lot about questions that women and mothers ask me a lot. They're questions that I've really grappled with, and I want to tackle some of those questions in the weeks to come. Things like: Why am I struggling so hard, and things don't seem to be getting better? Or, how do I trust myself more? Or, what if I do everything right and things still don't get better, or they don't go the way I want them to? These are important questions. These are hard questions. And I want to dive into that first question today and talk for a minute about why we can put in so much effort and struggle so much and work so hard, and things still don't seem to get better. Why doesn't that effort yield more fruit? So if you've ever experienced this, I want you to think about an area in your life where you struggle quite a bit, or where you feel like you've put in a lot of effort. Maybe it's in your marriage, in your parenting, in your health. Maybe you've consumed books or talked to experts or gone to therapy or taken courses, tried different practices or ideas that you found out there, and you just feel like things really aren't that much better. I want to pose a question to you, or an idea. What if you really don't need more effort? You're already doing it. You're already trying so hard. What if you actually need to learn something that you don't already know? What if you need to change the way that you think about this thing? Blaine and the Viola Audrey: I'm going to tell you a story that will really exemplify what I'm talking about here. My husband has a dad who was very into music. His family was into music. They had a family band growing up. His dad, my father-in-law, played multiple instruments. And so it was very natural in his family that when they were, you know, in elementary school or so, Dad would put each of them on an instrument. And for whatever reason, my father-in-law chose viola for Blaine. He said, "I think you would be great at viola. I think that's the perfect instrument for you." And somewhere in elementary or middle school, he handed him the viola. I think they had a couple of little introductory lessons, and that was pretty much it. Now, high school rolls around. He's played the viola a tiny bit. He's watched his dad play string instruments. He has a couple of books, and he decides he wants to get better at it. He really likes playing his viola. So he signs up for orchestra at school, but his dad won't pay for any lessons, and he doesn't have any money for lessons. So he's in the school orchestra. It's pretty small. He gets in daily practice because he's there at orchestra. He follows along. He does the best he can. He's not great at counting. He's struggling to keep up. But sometime in that school year, the orchestra teacher told all the kids that there was an all-state orchestra they could attend if they so desired. And for Blaine specifically, the teacher said, "Well, I think they have the orchestra pretty much full, but they might be able to make room for another viola. You could go check it out." So Blaine decided to go. There's something about being in the music, being in the sound, sitting amongst all of the other players and playing beautiful pieces, that is very meaningful for Blaine. It's very nutritive. He really, really, really loves it. He'd already kind of had a taste of that from high school orchestra. So he signs up, he goes to this all-state orchestra, and they put him last chair, but he doesn't care because he just wants to play. And he picks up his viola and they play some Beethoven piece. I can't remember which one it was. And he said a few notes in, he was hooked. It was a really large all-state orchestra, and they let him sit in last chair. He fumbled along. He did the best he could, but it gave him a taste, and he really, really wanted it. So that summer he decided, "Okay, well, I can't have lessons, and I've learned some this year in school. So I'm just going to practice three hours a day." This is some serious dedication and a high level of effort. So he's practicing virtually every day for three hours. He promises me it was really that long. He's doing the best he can. He sees maybe a little bit of improvement. I don't know. Not much. He goes back to high school orchestra. He stays in the all-state orchestra, close to the end of the chairs. Never really had lessons. He went to college and wanted to play viola in college. And for the first time in his life, he got a really good teacher. It was a university professor at a big, huge university. And here was his big chance. In order to be in the music program, he had to have these private lessons. And so for a year at college, he had these private lessons with this professor and made very moderate improvement. Really not a lot. Well, time goes by. [He's dating as well?] He's doing his college studies. He's kind of disenchanted because by this point, it's been four or five or six years of viola in his mind. He has finally had high-level lessons, and he just isn't very good. And it's dissatisfying, and he has other priorities. And then we marry, and then we have children, and he sets it aside. We carried this viola around with us for the next, you know, 20-plus years. He'd pick it up every now and again, play a little bit of a piece that he used to play, talk about it, dream about someday when he'd play viola again, but he never really did much about it. The Best of the Best Audrey: Well, a few years ago, he had more free time, and he decided, "I'm going to pick the viola back up. I want to do it right this time. So I'm going to get a really great teacher." So he starts asking around. We're north of Dallas, in Plano. It's a large city. And most of the biggest cities around us all have a city orchestra. There's Richardson, there's Plano, there's Frisco, I think there's McKinney, and there's the actual Dallas Symphony. There are all these symphonies around, and so there are viola players. And he started asking around among all of them, and he had a teacher that was highly recommended to him. She had all the credentials and an impressive history. Very highly recommended. She played in a couple of these city orchestras. And so she was the best of the best, right? She was going to be the best teacher he ever had. Well, pretty quickly, she jumps him into a pretty difficult piece. She tells him she wants him to compete in this local competition where you play in front of judges and you get a score. So he's playing his heart out. He's working, working, working, trying to get this piece together. He goes, and he does kind of a moderate job. Months go by, and he's trying really hard. He practices his heart out. I mean, he's practicing for about two hours a day and going to these lessons with this teacher. And after several months had gone by, he's having these conversations with me about, "This is still so hard, and I don't know if I'm improving, and I don't feel like I'm getting much better." Eventually he finds this volunteer orchestra. It's just a small volunteer orchestra, but he loves playing with them. He signs up and starts going. And with this teacher, month after month, for well over a year, I think about a year and a half, he'll practice for about two hours a day, and he'll show up, and she'll say, "Did you even practice? Why aren't you doing this better?" She would compliment him some, but sometimes she was hard on him. But she had this incredible reputation, and everybody thought highly of her. And so for a long time, he just kept telling himself: "Well, it can't be her, because she's the best of the best, and she's the best teacher I've ever had. And everybody told me she was awesome. And I'm working my butt off. I'm trying so hard, and it's just not coming together. What in the world am I going to do?" Finding the Right Teacher Audrey: And I'm listening to all of this, and I was encouraging him to look around for perhaps another teacher. Well, fast forward. He eventually finds two more teachers. He calls around to basically all of the violists in every symphony that he can find within driving distance. He asks people, "Who else do you know that teaches viola?" He gets the names of some other people that are highly recommended. He hires two other teachers while he keeps his old teacher. He tries out these new teachers. They're both significantly better than his current teacher. But one rises to the top, and he starts making progress quickly. Every week he's doing significantly better. And every week he comes home with, "Did you know there's a principle for how to hold the bow? Did you know there's a principle, or a fundamental, or a tactic, or a basic for this, that, or the other?" And this probably won't come as a surprise to you, but one of the things that this teacher said almost at the very beginning was: "You don't have the fundamentals down. You don't understand the basics. You're not playing viola in accordance with the principles that govern playing well. And so I have a trick or a strategy for all of these things, and we are just going to try things, and you're going to practice the fundamentals." He still has the volunteer orchestra, so he still has to practice the pieces for it. But rather than doing these harder pieces and practicing pieces all the time, now he's coming home doing a jillion scales and different bowing exercises. He's supposed to hold a pen and do a certain thing, and move his arm a certain way, and hold the bow a certain way, and do these certain activities. And now we're, I don't know, several months into this with her, maybe a year. I can't remember. Anyway, he is her favorite student, and she makes exceptions for him all the time. When she's not giving lessons that week or she's going out of town, she'll slip in a lesson with him here and there, because he's so dedicated and so hardworking. And you know that effort piece we started this podcast with? He is willing to put in the effort. He's willing to do whatever it takes. He's willing to put in the two hours a day. I was with him at a wedding recently, and he kept doing these little pen exercises. I said, "I need you to stop. That is so distracting. I just want to enjoy the wedding." Because he's so devoted to being the best player he can be. It was not a matter of effort. Think about it. He doesn't have any lessons. He puts in all kinds of effort, all summer long, three hours a day, no progress. He finally signs up for lessons years later. He has one of these really great college professors. Almost no progress. Later on, he finds another teacher. Almost no progress. And then he finds the teacher. And now he's soaring. He's learning so quickly and becoming better. His intonation... I don't even know all the right words to explain to you all the ways in which he's better. But he's really thriving, really excited. He and this teacher are on fire. Not because he needed more effort, but because he needed the right education. He needed to return to fundamentals. When Effort Makes It Worse Audrey: So that's why, if you're putting in all this effort and you're trying your heart out to be the very best mom or the very best wife or the very best steward of your health or whatever, and you are not making a lot of progress, I feel pretty confident telling you it really may not be an effort issue. Because unless you're pointed in the right direction, unless you have the right foundation, unless you're working from fundamentals, the effort won't help. In fact, sometimes it hurts you. In Blaine's case, that was definitely what happened. He drilled really bad habits into himself, and this teacher, focusing on fundamentals, has had to undo the bad stuff while teaching the right stuff. Sometimes you can even get further behind by putting in more effort with the wrong beliefs, the wrong attitudes, without the fundamentals, without the principles. You may be making things worse, just doubling down with effort instead of slowing down and discerning what's true about your situation. It reminds me of a mom I know who was recently learning more about her situation. She has a bunch of kids, and over a decade ago, she got really devoted to some different methodologies, and she kind of doubled down. And now here we are all these years later, and she's been struggling with depression and overwhelm for about the last year, and she finally had to admit to herself it's because her children are unruly and disrespectful. And a big part of that is because she leaned into these applications that these people were giving her without really understanding them, without really having the foundation, without really knowing the fundamentals. And she put in all the effort. She showed up day by day. She was trying to be a really great mom. And no amount of more effort really made the difference, because when you aren't living the principles, when you don't have the proper foundation, it doesn't matter how hard you try. One of my kids started running, and she had never run before, and I didn't understand, because I wasn't a runner, how important shoes were. We didn't have the right shoes on her, and she got on this track team, and sure enough, within just a few months, she had stress fractures, because we didn't understand the fundamentals. The teacher didn't give us the fundamentals. They didn't teach us how to buy the right shoes and how to stretch the right way and how to keep her body in good shape. And without those fundamentals, she drilled in bad habits. She put in all this effort. She ran every day. She loved being on that team. And yet it kind of caved, because we didn't have the right foundation from which to build. So it really does make all the difference. You have to be pointed in the right direction. You have to have those fundamentals, not more effort. So let's think for just a minute. Let's compare Blaine's experience to this mom's experience. They both cared deeply about what they were doing. They both genuinely wanted to be successful. They both looked around and tried to find the best resources they could. And they both put in all sorts of effort, and they were willing to be there for the long haul and keep trying and being patient and working hard. And yet without the fundamentals, it just didn't work. Intention isn't enough, and effort is definitely not enough. What Do I Know to Be True? Audrey: So this week, I want you to try something. I want you to think about an area in your life where you feel like you're really putting in a lot of effort, or you have put in a lot of effort, and it's just not improving, and you're frustrated. I want you to slow down. I want you to think deeply about whatever this is, whether it's a relationship or your health or even just a dirty room. And then I want you to ask yourself: "What do I know to be true about this, about me, about them, in this situation?" And I want you to try to rebuild on what you know to be true. Maybe there's one truth, maybe there are multiple truths. And then I want you to start thinking about, "Okay, I know that this is true, so how can I build on that? How can I practice that truth? How can I do more of that thing that I know to be right?" And start to try to build a more solid foundation in this area of your life, because it really does make all the difference. Where Was the Training for This? Audrey: You should stop beating yourself up if things aren't working out the way you want them to, and start asking yourself, "Is there maybe something that I wasn't taught, that I wasn't given, that I don't have?" Because I really believe that a lot of us, a lot of moms, are suffering unnecessarily because we weren't given what we need to thrive as women and as mothers. I mean, think about the complicated situations you find yourself in all the time: negotiating relationships between other people, managing and juggling schedules, building a relationship with your spouse while also trying to be a great mom. Often you're also working in some capacity and trying to manage the finances and the home. And where was the training for this? When were we taught the truths around it? When did we get a chance to practice success? We weren't given what we need. You probably weren't given what you need to succeed in this area. So stop beating yourself up. Start slowing down and thinking more deeply. Maybe journal about this. What do you know to be true? And try rebuilding on that solid foundation. Coming Up Next Audrey: Next time, we're going to build on this by asking the next logical question. Once we know, or think we know, what might be true about something, how can we trust ourselves to make those judgments? Once we've thought things through and it's time to actually act and make that decision, how can we better trust ourselves to judge and discern better decisions based on what we now know to be more true? We'll talk about that next time. Thank you so much for joining me. I would love for you to share with me in the comments your takeaway and your practice on this. How did it go, slowing down and discerning what's true so that you can build on a better foundation? I will see you next time.
EP 173 Mission Driven Story: Martin Luther King Jr.
I want to tell you about one powerful night in a kitchen in Montgomery, Alabama. The man at the table was twenty six years old. He had a doctorate he had just finished, a wife asleep in the next room, and a baby daughter who had just been born. He also had a movement he never asked to lead: he was voted in. And the threats had started coming, sometimes thirty or forty per day. His house had even been bombed with his wife and daughter inside. All of these realities laid heavily on him and he couldn't sleep, so he got up and made himself a cup of coffee. He never drank it. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th Episode 36: Meeting Life With Nonviolent Resistance The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr., edited by Clayborne Carson Letter from Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King Jr. Civil Disobedience, Henry David Thoreau I Have a Dream, Martin Luther King Jr., March on Washington, 1963 A Way Out of No Way, Andrew Young AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 173: Mission Driven Story: Martin Luther King Jr. My call to the ministry was not a miraculous or supernatural something. On the contrary, it was an inner urge, calling me to serve humanity. Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, founder of The Mission Driven Life and author of The Mission Driven Mom. Martin Luther King Jr. was a truly mission driven man, and he exemplifies a theme that we're talking about over these months through the summer and into the fall, and that is true vision. A real visionary, someone who knew what vision was and held onto it all his life. AUDREY: I want to talk to you about some of the amazing things that he did that we're not as aware of nowadays, and point you to his autobiography. It is not technically an autobiography. It is a compilation put together by someone after he died from all original sources: his speeches, his journals, his letters, refocused into the first person. But it all comes originally from him, and it's in chronological order. It is beautiful. I loved reading it. I have watched many of his speeches and read articles and a couple of other books. Letter from Birmingham Jail is one of my favorites of all time. AUDREY: There are some incredible stories and experiences I'm going to share with you, and I'm going to read some selections from his autobiography because he says it far better than I could. Reading it really nurtured my soul. It increased my faith. It told of miraculous experiences. A Caveat AUDREY: I'm going to give you one little caveat at the beginning: he is a controversial figure in some people's eyes. Two things I think are important to point out. One is that some of his closest friends did say after he died that he had affairs. There are FBI tapes under lock that will come out, I think, next year. AUDREY: I can't speak to any of that. I don't know. I do know that the FBI did things that even the most conservative individual thinks are pretty shady, and I don't know how that interaction played back and forth. I don't know what they have under lock and key or what will come out. Maybe there is a chance that Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't exactly the man he positioned himself to be. But I do know that what he writes about rings true to me. I know that the principles he dedicated his life to served beautiful purposes and beautiful ends. He lifted our nation. He made our nation better through the vision that he held and the way that he sacrificed himself for it. So I don't want to discard all the good that he was and all the good that he did. I want to share with you the experiences that are undisputed, that we know actually happened, the things we know he said and did that I believe are truly admirable and worth learning about and worth looking up to him for. AUDREY: I also had a conversation with someone recently that was very fascinating. They were saying they think maybe he wasn't really peace loving and didn't really practice nonviolent resistance. That seemed very bizarre to me. I was like, we have videotapes. We have evidence of that kind of thing. Like anything, we're rewriting history. We're telling the bad parts of the story and not always the good parts. I just want to share with you the things that have elevated and inspired me, the truths I know he teaches, and what we know for sure: that he made a conscious choice to give his life for his vision, and he did bring that about to the betterment of the people around him and our nation, and I truly believe, probably the world. AUDREY: This isn't meant to be a full picture of everything about him. It's a mission driven story in the sense that he was a man truly dedicated to some true principles, and he lived those out. He did love God. He did everything he could to try to love humanity. He did love his family. If he had some faults, some weaknesses, some committed sins, I can't speak to that. But he did exemplify many of those mission driven qualities, and he was, for sure, a true visionary who changed the world. Childhood in Atlanta AUDREY: He was born in January of 1929. He had, in his own words, a marvelous father and mother. They didn't argue much or have very many falling outs, and they were very significant in determining his religious attitudes. He said: It is quite easy for me to think of a God of love mainly because I grew up in a family where love was central and where loving relationships were ever present. AUDREY: He said this made him a more optimistic person: "I lean more toward optimism than pessimism about human nature because of my childhood experiences." And he also says, "I think that my strong determination for justice comes from the very strong, dynamic personality of my father, and I hope that the gentle aspect comes from a mother who is very gentle and sweet." AUDREY: He tells about an experience he had with a little boy when he was young: From the age of three, I had a white playmate who was about my age. We always felt free to play our childhood games together. He did not live in our community, but he was usually around every day; his father owned a store across the street from our home. At the age of six, we both entered school, separate schools, of course. I remember how our friendship began to break as soon as we entered school. This was not my desire, but his. The climax came when he told me one day that his father had demanded that he would play with me no more. I never will forget what a great shock this was to me. I immediately asked my parents about the motive behind such a statement. We were at the dinner table when the situation was discussed, and here, for the first time, I was made aware of the existence of a race problem. I had never been conscious of it before. AUDREY: He was middle class in Atlanta. They lived, I guess, in a predominantly Black neighborhood, and those were the people he mostly associated with. But he saw no color differences. It didn't make a difference to him what color this little boy was. They were just friends. As my parents discussed some of the tragedies that had resulted from this problem, and some of the insults they themselves had confronted on account of it, I was greatly shocked, and from that moment on I was determined to hate every white person. As I grew older and older, this feeling continued to grow. My parents would always tell me that I should not hate the white man, but that it was my duty as a Christian to love him. The question arose in my mind: how could I love a race of people who hated me and who had been responsible for breaking me up with one of my best childhood friends? This was a great question in my mind for a number of years. AUDREY: He always had a resentment toward the system of segregation. His mother talked to him about slavery and about the Civil War, and she tried to explain the divided system of the South as a result of that: the segregated schools, restaurants, theaters, housing, drinking fountains, waiting rooms and bathrooms, as a social condition rather than a natural order. So she tried to explain, this isn't how things need to be. This isn't how God intends them to be. This is how humans are making it for each other. She made it clear that she opposed this system and that I must never allow it to make me feel inferior. Then she said the words that almost every Black southerner hears before he can yet understand the injustice that makes them necessary: "You are as good as anyone." AUDREY: So at a very young age, he has this really great friendship with this little white boy. He believes that we can all get along and be friends, and then it's shattered in this revelation at age six. His parents try to help him through it and help him see the truth about it, but he really, really struggles. AUDREY: He learned a lot from his father too. He says: The thing I admire most about my dad is his genuine Christian character. He is a man of real integrity, deeply committed to moral and ethical principles. He is conscientious in all of his undertakings. Even the person who disagrees with his frankness has to admit that his motives and actions are sincere. AUDREY: His father was the pastor at Ebenezer Baptist Church, and he wielded great influence in the community and perhaps won the grudging respect of some whites. He says, "With this heritage, it is not surprising that I had also learned to abhor segregation, considering it both rationally inexplicable and morally unjustifiable." AUDREY: What the Civil Rights Movement owes to Martin Luther King Jr., we also owe to his parents. They were the ones who pulled themselves up, got some education, became leaders in the community, and lived this middle class lifestyle. They believed in Christian love in the face of social injustice, even though they were the ones being acted against. They instilled in King a love for all mankind, or tried to at least, and tried to help him see that the system was broken, but that people were good. Faith and Early Questions AUDREY: He always talked about his religious experience. He said the church was always a second home for him, and he accepted the biblical teachings uncritically for a time. But as he was growing up, he was always questioning and very precocious. He says, "At the age of thirteen, I shocked my Sunday school class by denying the bodily resurrection of Jesus," and he began to have more and more doubts. AUDREY: One more note on the system of segregation. He said there was no Black YMCA. They couldn't go to the public parks, and they couldn't go to the so called white schools. [VERIFY AUDIO: the raw transcript reads "could go" for the parks and theaters.] Some of the stores downtown would only let them go to certain counters to buy things, and they couldn't go to the white theaters, and so on. Morehouse at Fifteen AUDREY: Now something really incredible happened to him. He was always very intelligent, and he was just going through school in regular fashion. Then World War II came, and many young men were lost. Morehouse College, which I think at the time was an all Black college and may still be, had vacancies to fill because young men were going off to war, and they decided to try to find some high school students who could start college early. AUDREY: At the age of fifteen, some very significant things happened to him. First, he gave a speech on [VERIFY AUDIO: "The Negro and the Constitution"] and won at his school, so he was sent to a state competition. He went with his teacher, Mrs. Bradley, and they were on a bus returning home. White passengers boarded and told them to give up their seats. Martin didn't want to, but his teacher coaxed him. I intended to stay right in that seat, but Mrs. Bradley urged me up, saying we had to obey the law. We stood up in the aisle for ninety miles to Atlanta. That night will never leave my memory. It was the angriest I have ever been in my life. AUDREY: So he's got all these experiences happening to him that are triggering this passion about segregation and these deep feelings of injustice. Of course, it's part of his nature to be a certain way. He's naturally brilliant, he feels the injustice of the system, and he wants to try to make things right. Even at a young age, he's giving speeches about the Constitution and natural rights and natural law. He talks about those again later in his writings and speeches, and in Letter from Birmingham Jail. He's very well aware. AUDREY: So in 1944, Morehouse College has openings. They administer an exam, he does well, and they invite him to start college at just fifteen, which meant he graduated from college at nineteen, which is just crazy. He was on the fast track to get this incredible education, and a storm of circumstances happened in his life to make him the perfect candidate to lead this movement. AUDREY: Just before he went to college, in his teenage years, he went to Simsbury, Connecticut, and worked a whole summer on a tobacco farm. He says: After that summer in Connecticut, it was a bitter feeling going back to segregation. It was hard to understand why I could ride wherever I pleased on the train from New York to Washington and then had to change to a Jim Crow car at the nation's capital in order to continue the trip to Atlanta. The first time that I was seated behind a curtain in a dining car, I felt as if the curtain had been dropped on my selfhood. I could never adjust to the separate waiting rooms, separate eating places, separate restrooms, partly because the separate was always unequal, and partly because the very idea of separation did something to my sense of dignity and self respect. The Search for a Method AUDREY: So he's got all of these ideas brewing in him. By the time he gets to college at fifteen, he's already devoted himself to this cause. He already feels passionate about it. He's already written about it in junior high and high school. He's been thinking about it, talking to his parents about it, looking around in the world at it, and he pushes even further into these topics. In college, he gets a degree in sociology, so he has an opportunity to ponder these concepts more. AUDREY: I think it was at Morehouse that he first read Thoreau's essay on civil disobedience. It introduced him to the idea that you need to stand on the true law: that natural law and civil law are not always the same thing, and that civil laws that don't honor natural law are not real law. Thoreau had refused to pay his taxes because he didn't agree with the war the money was being used for. All these ideas are growing in his mind, and he continues to build, at a young age, this vision of a different world. He wants a different world. He wants to find a way to insert himself into this problem and make things better. AUDREY: At nineteen, he says: Not until I entered Crozer Theological Seminary in 1948 did I begin a serious intellectual quest for a method to eliminate social evil. AUDREY: So up to age nineteen, he felt passionate about it. He studied sociology. But he's not very optimistic that society could be changed. He doesn't have any idea how that could happen. By nineteen, he's actively on the hunt for a method. He's saying, if we could do it, how could we do it? He has already formed this vision. He knows what he wants to do with his life and the kind of difference he wants to make. He is actively looking for a method to create social change. I turned to a serious study of the social and ethical theories of the great philosophers, from Plato and Aristotle down to Rousseau, Hobbes, Bentham, Mill, and Locke. All of these masters stimulated my thinking, such as it was, and while finding things to question in each of them, I nevertheless learned a great deal from their study. AUDREY: He's getting a classical liberal arts education. He's studying all the greats. He's digging deep and learning the arguments of these different thinkers. One Christmas, when he goes home for several weeks, he decides this is his time to study Marxism, and he delves deep into all of the Marxist writings. He later dives deep into Nietzsche and other philosophers, and he rejects them on principled grounds. He's able to list the tenets of each belief system, what they're promoting, and why they are wrong. AUDREY: He also reconnects with his faith. He finds great mentors, and he learns to discern the truths that the Bible holds. In Atlanta, he had been around many pastors, some of whom were not very educated, and some couldn't even read very well. He was very relieved in college to find men to look up to who were the kind of pastor he wanted to become. He had been deciding between education and the ministry, and he chose the ministry, which is why he went to the theological seminary. There he found a place where he could believe and put his whole heart into his religious beliefs. When I went to Morehouse as a freshman in 1944, my concern for racial and economic justice was already substantial. AUDREY: Like I said, even at fifteen he's already set on the problem, and he's studying it during these years. Here, in this courageous New Englander's refusal to pay his taxes and his choice of jail rather than support a war that would spread slavery's territory into Mexico, I made my first contact with the theory of nonviolent resistance. Fascinated by the idea of refusing to cooperate with an evil system, I was so deeply moved that I reread the work several times. I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. AUDREY: He talks about running across Gandhi and being exposed to the way he executed this in India, the incredible good that he did, the way he changed the world with the nonviolent resistance model. And he knew he had found a method that could work, if he found himself in a place where he could make a difference and implement these ideas in a real world way. AUDREY: One of the reasons I've thought about doing this Martin Luther King Jr. podcast for a while: I prepared all this information for a book I was writing last year, and every time I would think, no, it's so controversial. Finally I decided he did so many good things, I just needed to talk about the good things. I want you all to know that when he was standing in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963, he had spent a lifetime preparing. It was no surprise that he was the man standing there. And I'll continue to tell you what he sacrificed for this vision. He really sacrificed everything. He put everything on the line for the cause he felt was the most important in the world, the one he wanted to give his life to. AUDREY: He goes on to the theological seminary, and he eventually gets his doctorate. He says: In 1954 I ended my formal training with all of these relatively divergent intellectual forces converging into a positive social philosophy. One of the main tenets of this philosophy was the conviction that nonviolent resistance was one of the most potent weapons available to oppressed people in their quest for social justice. At this time, however, I had merely an intellectual understanding and appreciation of the position, with no firm determination to organize it in a socially effective situation. AUDREY: So he wasn't going to start his own movement or his own organization. He had just done all the groundwork. By the time he was twenty five, he was prepared. He was perfectly prepared and positioned. Choosing the South AUDREY: Then it was time to determine his career path. I want to read this to you because it is incredible. It is one of the things that really makes me admire him. At this point, I was torn in two directions. On the one hand, I was inclined toward the pastorate; on the other hand, toward educational work. Which way should I go? And if I accepted a church, should it be one in the South, with all the tragic implications of segregation, or one of the two available pulpits in the North? Now, I thought, as the plane carried me toward Detroit, I had a chance to escape from the long night of segregation. Could I return to a society that condoned a system I had abhorred since childhood? These questions were still unanswered when I returned to Boston. I discussed them with my wife, Coretta; we had been married less than a year. I found that she too was hesitant about returning South. We discussed the all important question of raising children in the bonds of segregation. We reviewed our own growth in the South and the many advantages we had been deprived of as a result of segregation. The question of my wife's musical career came up. She was certain that a northern city would afford a greater opportunity for continued study than any city in the deep South. For several days we talked and thought and prayed over each of these matters. AUDREY: If you can imagine, here are two highly educated, highly accomplished individuals who have had the best life they possibly could have, coming from where they came from. They have their whole lives ahead of them. They're beautiful people. They are deeply devoted to Christ and Christianity. They are very highly educated, and their future is in front of them. Where will they go? What will they do? They had every reason to stay in the North, which they easily could have done. He could have taken a pastorate at one of the northern churches. She could have pursued her musical career. They could have had a few beautiful children and a wonderful life and never looked back. And then he goes on: Finally, we agreed that, in spite of the disadvantages and inevitable sacrifices, our greatest service could be rendered in our native South. We came to the conclusion that we had something of a moral obligation to return, at least for a few years. The South, after all, was our home. Despite its shortcomings, we loved it as home, and had a real desire to do something about the problems that we had felt so keenly as youngsters. We never wanted to be considered detached spectators. Since racial discrimination was most intense in the South, we felt that some of the Negroes who had received a portion of their training in other sections of the country should return to share their broader contacts and educational experience. AUDREY: So they felt like that's what others should do, and so they knew that's what they needed to do. Moreover, despite having to sacrifice much of the cultural life we loved, despite the existence of Jim Crow, which kept reminding us at all times of the color of our skin, we had the feeling that something remarkable was unfolding in the South, and we wanted to be on hand to witness it. AUDREY: And it is crazy to me how quickly it came. I'll give you this quick timeline. In 1944, he goes to Morehouse College. In February of 1948, he's ordained. In 1948, he gets his degree in sociology and enters the theological seminary. In 1951, he graduates from Crozer. In 1953, he marries Coretta. In 1954, he's given his pastorate. In June of 1955, he receives his doctorate from Boston University. And in December of that same year, Rosa Parks won't get up from her seat. It is crazy to me how right on the heels of his preparation, almost in the moment, he's called upon. By December 5th of 1955, they've arranged the mass meeting, and by 1956 the bus boycott, which lasted a little over a year, is in full swing. Montgomery and the Bus Boycott AUDREY: He's in this moment where he's been uniquely and perfectly prepared and understands that nonviolent resistance is the way forward, and he's still formulating the strategies, how to work this out in practical terms and how they can execute it. So they decide that everyone will boycott the buses. They will walk everywhere, and they will give each other rides. This required a lot of coordination: people with cars going to pick up people who didn't have cars and getting them where they needed to be. And they just did this day after day, week after week, month after month. It is incredible. He says: We were saying to the white community, "We can no longer lend our cooperation to an evil system." From this moment on I conceived of our movement as an act of massive noncooperation. From then on I rarely used the word "boycott." During the rush hours the sidewalks were crowded with laborers and domestic workers, many of them well past middle age, trudging patiently to their jobs and home again, sometimes as much as twelve miles. They knew why they walked, and the knowledge was evident in the way they carried themselves. And as I watched them, I knew that there is nothing more majestic than the determined courage of individuals willing to suffer and sacrifice for their freedom and dignity. AUDREY: This is something he talks about over and over again: how ennobling it was to be involved with people who would choose this work, who would choose to protest this way. AUDREY: At one of these first meetings forming the association, he is asked to speak. He says: I was almost overcome, obsessed by a feeling of inadequacy. In this state of anxiety, I had already wasted five minutes of the twenty I had to prepare. With nothing left but faith in a power whose matchless strength stands over against the frailties and inadequacies of human nature, I turned to God in prayer. My words were brief and simple, asking God to restore my balance and to be with me in a time when I needed His guidance more than ever. The enthusiasm of these thousands of people swept everything along like an onrushing tidal wave. While I would not let this experience tempt me to overlook the need for continued preparation, it would always remind me that God can transform man's weakness into His glorious opportunity. No historian would ever be able to fully describe this meeting, and no sociologist would ever be able to interpret it adequately. One had to be a part of the experience really to understand it. AUDREY: Because this is when it began: this rush of support and unity in the community, that they were going to do this and stand by each other and make it happen. Christ Furnished the Spirit AUDREY: This is where he goes into what nonviolence is, why he chose it, and what it's really about. It's really beautiful. From the beginning, a basic philosophy guided the movement. This guiding principle has since been referred to variously as nonviolent resistance, noncooperation, and passive resistance. But in the first days of the protest, none of these expressions was mentioned. The phrase most often heard was "Christian love." AUDREY: As I go back into this history and read it from him and from other people who were around him, I'm constantly reminded what a spiritual movement it was. Like the original abolitionists, they were Christian women and men. Like the original suffragists who wanted the vote for women, they were Christian women. It is amazing to me how the movement toward better principles and more freedom for more people is stimulated most often by those who love God, who want to love the people around them, and who make personal sacrifices, often when they have no personal stake in it. It was the Sermon on the Mount, rather than a doctrine of passive resistance, that initially inspired the Negroes of Montgomery to dignified social action. It was Jesus of Nazareth that stirred the Negroes to protest with the creative weapon of love. Nonviolent resistance had emerged as the technique of the movement, while love stood as the regulating ideal. In other words, Christ furnished the spirit and motivation while Gandhi furnished the method. AUDREY: That's so beautiful to me, because as we move closer to the love of Christ and those biblical ideals, we see good coming for all humankind. Offering to Step Down AUDREY: I included a couple of these stories simply because they really struck me as showing a deep self consciousness and a real striving to be honest with himself. Again, I can't speak to what other things he may have done. But as I read through his autobiography and listen to him and watch him, it seems to me that he is very sincere in his convictions. He basically sacrificed his life for his beliefs. He is a real martyr in that way. And so we have to believe him that these were his convictions, regardless of what his weaknesses may have been. AUDREY: He was struggling with himself. He had a heavy heart because he knew he sometimes got angry, and he had had moments where he was disappointed in himself because he had been indignant and angry. So he calls a meeting of the [VERIFY AUDIO: "Southern Conference"] and basically says, I am not worthy to be your leader. I'm still young. He was twenty five, twenty six at this time. He says, I just don't have the maturity. I get angry. I don't think I can do it. I will be one hundred percent with you. I will do everything that's needed. But I think you should get a different leader. And they all said, we trust you one hundred percent. We are completely behind you. With a unanimous vote of confidence, they made it clear that they were well pleased with the way I was handling things, and that they would follow my leadership to the end. AUDREY: So there's this aspect of humility in his work all the time. No one knows these things about him: that he was concerned about his ability to do this and offered to step down. He didn't choose these leadership roles. He was voted in. He was asked to do it. AUDREY: This is one I really love. This was later on, when he was world famous: When you are aware that you are a symbol, it causes you to search your soul constantly, to go through this job of self analysis, to see if you live up to the high and noble principles that people surround you with, and to try at all times to keep the gulf between the public self and the private self at a minimum. One of the prayers that I prayed to God every day was: "O God, help me to see myself in my true perspective. Help me, O God, to see that I'm just a symbol of a movement. Help me to see that I'm the victim of what the Germans call a Zeitgeist and that something was getting ready to happen in history; the time was right for it. Help me to see that a boycott would have taken place in Montgomery, Alabama, if I had never come to Alabama. Help me to realize that I'm where I am because of the forces of history and because of the fifty thousand Negroes of Alabama who will never get their names in the papers and in the headlines. O God, help me to see that where I stand today, I stand because others helped me to stand there and because the forces of history projected me there." AUDREY: So he's constantly doing the work of trying to take his ego out of his convictions and his work: all of the fawning, all of the attention, all of the women throwing themselves at him, all of the ego boosting everyone around him is doing. Compare this to someone else who was just as world famous as him. Are they praying these prayers? Are they trying to check themselves? Are they trying to live up to the way other people see them? Or are they surrounding themselves with yes men who will do whatever they want? The Bombings and the Gun AUDREY: As the boycott heats up, the death threats begin. People are calling or writing letters. He said at one point that he would sometimes get thirty or forty threats per day. In Montgomery it's starting to heat up, and his home is bombed. It's actually bombed twice. The first time, he says to the crowd: We believe in law and order. Don't get panicky. Don't do anything panicky at all. Don't get your weapons. He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword. Remember, that is what God said. We are not advocating violence. We want to love our enemies. I want you to love your enemies. Be good to them. Love them and let them know you love them. AUDREY: What a thing to say on his front porch when his home had been bombed and he almost lost his wife and daughter, who were in the home at the time. He goes on: I did not start this boycott. I was asked by you to serve as your spokesman. I want it to be known the length and breadth of this land that if I am stopped, this movement will not stop. If I am stopped, our work will not stop. For what we are doing is right. What we are doing is just. And God is with us. AUDREY: The second time his home is bombed, he has this to say: At home I addressed the crowd from my porch, where the marks of the bomb were clear. "We must not return violence under any condition. I know this is difficult advice to follow, especially since we have been the victims of no less than ten bombings. But this is the way of Christ; it is the way of the cross. We must somehow believe that unearned suffering is redemptive." AUDREY: I think that's a core principle he really believed and tried to live out: that unearned suffering is redemptive. Then, since it was Sunday morning, I urged the people to go home and get ready for church. Gradually they dispersed. AUDREY: In the middle of all of this, he and his wife had a long conversation about what it meant for them, and how they should protect and defend themselves as the threats were coming in and the bombings were happening. He says: Meanwhile I considered: how could I serve as one of the leaders of a nonviolent movement and at the same time use weapons of violence for my personal protection? Coretta and I talked the matter over for several days and finally agreed that arms were no solution. We decided to get rid of the one weapon we owned. When I decided that I couldn't keep a gun, I came face to face with the question of death, and I dealt with it. From that point on, I no longer needed a gun, nor have I been afraid. Had we become distracted by the question of my safety, we would have lost the moral offensive and sunk to the level of our oppressors. AUDREY: He was also at one point put in a car by the police and driven off, and they weren't going toward the jail, so he didn't know where they were going. Again, he was really scared. At another point, he was in a crowd and a woman lunged toward him and stabbed him in the chest, and it almost killed him. Afterward, people commented a lot about how calm he was in the midst of it all. This is what he said about it: If I demonstrated unusual calm during the recent attempt on my life, it was certainly not due to any extraordinary powers that I possess. Rather, it was due to the power of God working through me. Throughout this struggle for racial justice I have constantly asked God to remove all bitterness from my heart and to give me the strength and courage to face any disaster that came my way. This constant prayer life and feeling of dependence on God have given me the feeling that I have divine companionship in this struggle. I know no other way to explain it. It is the fact that in the midst of external tension, God can give an inner peace. AUDREY: And this goes back to a really powerful spiritual experience he had, when he offered himself up, faced his own humanity, and accepted that this might cost him his life, which of course it did. As a little tangent: Gandhi was also a man of faith. He also saw these as spiritual as well as physical principles, and he also worked to discipline himself and give the glory to a higher power. In that way, both men tapped into deep spiritual principles and called upon the consciences of the people around them through nonviolent resistance, this turning of the other cheek. As Gandhi explained to others, he also learned it from Christ. The Kitchen Table AUDREY: So here is the experience Martin Luther King Jr. had. Finally, I went to the kitchen and heated a pot of coffee. I was ready to give up. With my cup of coffee sitting untouched before me, I tried to think of a way to move out of the picture without appearing a coward. I sat there and thought about a beautiful little daughter who had just been born. I'd come in night after night and see that little gentle smile. I started thinking about a dedicated and loyal wife, who was over there asleep. And she could be taken from me, or I could be taken from her. And I got to the point that I couldn't take it any longer. I was weak. Something said to me, you can't call on Daddy now. You can't even call on Mama. You've got to call on that something in that person that your Daddy used to tell you about, that power that can make a way out of no way. AUDREY: That's one of the themes. Way Out of No Way is also the title of a book by one of his companions in the work. This was a key element of King's faith: that even when he saw no way, God could provide a way out of no way. With my head in my hands, I bowed over the kitchen table and prayed aloud. The words I spoke to God that midnight are still vivid in my memory. "Lord, I'm down here trying to do what's right. I think I'm right. I am here taking a stand for what I believe is right. But Lord, I must confess that I'm weak now, I'm faltering. I'm losing my courage. Now, I am afraid. And I can't let the people see me like this because if they see me weak and losing my courage, they will begin to get weak. The people are looking to me for leadership, and if I stand before them without strength and courage, they too will falter. I am at the end of my powers. I have nothing left. I've come to the point where I can't face it alone." It seemed as though I could hear the quiet assurance of an inner voice saying: "Martin Luther, stand up for righteousness. Stand up for justice. Stand up for truth. And lo, I will be with you. Even until the end of the world." I tell you I've seen the lightning flash. I've heard the thunder roar. I've felt sin breakers dashing trying to conquer my soul. But I heard the voice of Jesus saying still to fight on. He promised never to leave me, never to leave me alone. At that moment I experienced the presence of the Divine as I had never experienced Him before. Almost at once my fears began to go. My uncertainty disappeared. I was ready to face anything. AUDREY: And that conviction, that unflinching knowledge that God was walking with him, stayed with him through all sorts of other trials. He said once: As far as the repeated attacks on me and my family, I must say that here again, God gives one the strength to adjust to such acts of violence. None of these attacks came as a total surprise to me, because I counted the cost early in the struggle. Jail and Birmingham AUDREY: As we get close to the end here, I want to point out a few more things about their work, and reiterate that many of the most important things ever created for humanity were done in obedience to divine laws, in submission to God and His ways. We see that in the founding of our own nation. We see it in past movements with Wilberforce and other martyrs and great men and women. The Civil Rights Movement in America is right along the lines of all of those movements. AUDREY: We know they started to do sit ins and peaceful walks and protests to raise the conscience of the community, and sometimes they would get themselves arrested because they were acting against the law. But of course, in their minds and truthfully, they were acting in line with the natural law, that all men and women are created equal. AUDREY: Many of their meetings took place in churches. It was spiritual from the beginning. They were asking people to turn in their weapons and sacrifice themselves in the gift of love to others, to put their bodies to work against evil by offering them up, even in prison. Among all the prayer, scripture study, and striving to live a Christian life, he fasted to prepare himself for his stay in prison. He took responsibility when any Black person was violent in any respect. He called for a day of penance for all Black people to evaluate their hearts and minds and see the rightness of the nonviolent way. They held a prayer vigil in front of City Hall to call for peace and negotiations, and they were arrested again. They stayed in jail, missing an important Meet the Press TV interview. In jail, they read scriptures often, held services twice a day, and sang religious songs. AUDREY: From a letter he wrote to Coretta at one point when he was in jail: Today I find myself a long way from you and the children. I know this whole experience is very difficult for you to adjust to, especially in your condition of pregnancy, but as I said to you yesterday, this is the cross that we must bear for the freedom of our people. So I urge you to be strong in faith, and this will in turn strengthen me. I can assure you that it is extremely difficult for me to think of being away from you and my Yoki and Marty for four months, but I am asking God hourly to give me the power of endurance. I have the faith to believe that this excessive suffering that is now coming to our family will in some little way serve to make Atlanta a better city, Georgia a better state, and America a better country. Just how, I do not yet know, but I have faith to believe it will. If I am correct, then our suffering is not in vain. AUDREY: This is an example of what happened when they were holding these mass meetings all over the South and asking for volunteers: Toward the end of the mass meetings, Abernathy or Shuttlesworth or I would extend an appeal for volunteers to serve in our nonviolent army. We made it clear that we would not send anyone out to demonstrate who had not convinced himself and us that he could accept and endure violence without retaliating. AUDREY: That's why they did these trainings. They made people think about and consider what they would do if people were hitting them or beating them or pushing them. At the same time, we urged volunteers to give up any possible weapons that they might have on their persons. Hundreds of people responded to this appeal. We proved that we possessed the most formidable weapon of all: the conviction that we were right. We had the protection of our knowledge that we were more concerned about realizing our righteous aims than about saving our skins. AUDREY: And that is vision. He had the vision in his own mind. He developed it over years of education, thinking about it, studying it, talking about it, writing about it. And then in his personal life, when the moment came for him to sacrifice himself, he did it. He took on leadership roles he felt inadequate for. His home was bombed, and he chose to stay in the work and not walk away, and he turned to God, and God gave him the strength and the conviction. And then he asked others to do what he was doing. He never asked anyone to do something he wasn't willing to do himself. And he shared the vision, shared the dream, over and over and over again, and the circle got wider and wider. AUDREY: This is the principle: we can only control ourselves, and to the level at which we control ourselves, we get out of drama. We decide to be creators. We formulate a vision and we live according to that vision, and our circle of influence will grow and grow. It is incredible how he came to have worldwide influence. Letter from Birmingham Jail AUDREY: So we get to the moment where they're doing these protests and going to jail for it, and they make a decision. He says the city government obtained a court injunction directing them to cease their activities until their right to demonstrate had been argued in court. They believed they had the right to demonstrate, but the city was trying to stop them. Two days later, we did an audacious thing, something we had never done in any other crusade. We disobeyed a court order. AUDREY: He makes this justification in Letter from Birmingham Jail. He explains why they were being obedient to law, because they were obeying the natural law above the civil law. He says: I intended to be one of the first to set the example of civil disobedience. AUDREY: Which is the title of that Thoreau essay from years before, when he was in college. Ten days after the demonstrations began, between four and five hundred people had gone to jail. Some had been released on bail, but about three hundred remained. Now that the job of unifying the Negro community had been accomplished, my time had come. We decided that, because of its symbolic significance, Good Friday, April 12, would be the day that Ralph Abernathy and I would present our bodies as a personal witness in this crusade. AUDREY: So they gave themselves up and offered themselves into jail, and then he writes Letter from Birmingham Jail. Here's one little segment of it. We go through it in detail in Level Two of the Academy, where we drill into how to understand it and identify its principles. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just and there are unjust laws. I would agree with Saint Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all." Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of Saint Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law. AUDREY: So here he is citing the natural law as the justification for the actions he's taking. It's incredible how this natural law and its first principles bring about justice and healing and freedom for so many people. The truth makes us free. God Had Been My Cellmate AUDREY: I don't have all of this in perfect chronological order. I have snippets that stood out to me that I wanted to share with you today. There was a moment in prison when he was put in solitary confinement, which was incredibly difficult. He was finally let out long enough to have a visitor, a man named Clarence Jones who was working with him. Here's how he recounts what happened: When Clarence Jones arrived the next day, before I could even tell him how happy I was to see him, he said a few words that lifted a thousand pounds from my heart. "Harry Belafonte has been able to raise fifty thousand dollars for bail bonds. It is available immediately. And he says that whatever else you need, he will raise it." AUDREY: There were all these people in jail, and they couldn't get any of them out. The bail bonds had been set so high, and he didn't know how he was going to help these people go home and live their lives. I found it hard to say what I felt. Jones's message had brought me more than relief from my immediate concern; more than gratitude for the loyalty of friends far away; more than confirmation of the life of the movement that could not be snuffed out. What silenced me was a profound sense of awe. I was aware of a feeling that had been present all along below the surface of consciousness, pressed down under the weight of concern for the movement: I had never been truly in solitary confinement; God's companionship does not stop at the door of a jail cell. God had been my cellmate. When the decision came in Room 30 on Good Friday that we must act, God was there. And He was also present in a Fifth Avenue New York City apartment, where a dedicated young star had worked night and day, telephoning everyone he could think of to raise money for Birmingham. In the midst of the deepest midnight, daybreak had come. I did not know whether the sun was shining at that moment. But I knew that once again I could see the light. A Vision Bigger Than Himself AUDREY: He was truly a visionary, with a vision so much bigger than himself. His life was swallowed up in a cause and a movement that involved first dozens, then thousands, then tens of thousands, and eventually millions of individuals who came together in a common cause, lived out this vision, and changed the whole face of America. AUDREY: Vision is really what changes everything. It helps us get out of drama. It helps us stay in a creator mindset and keep moving toward something that matters, something bigger and better than we are as individuals. And as he devoted his life to this vision, he literally changed the world. He as an individual is so inspiring to me. The vision he formulated and held, the light he held up, is just like the torch that is our logo. It's the image of our movement here at The Mission Driven Mom. That light that we hold up: the light of goodness, the light of truth, the light of God, the light of principles. We become principled mothers who then link arms with other principled mothers. We get ourselves in line. We get our homes in line with truth. And we go out and make a difference in the community. Together we can do that, because this vision makes all the difference. AUDREY: If right now in this moment of your life you feel stuck, if you aren't sure how to move forward, just know that as you make the decision to become a creator and find a new vision for your life to move toward, as small as that may be, it will start to change you. Maybe it's a clean kitchen. You hold to that vision that you are going to have a clean kitchen, and you're going to figure out how, you're going to find a way to have a clean kitchen all the time. It will start to change you. The very fabric of who you are will begin to change. As you stay in that creator mindset by holding onto that vision, big or small, grand or minimal, it will make all the difference for you. I Have a Dream AUDREY: I want to end with his I Have a Dream speech, because this was the ultimate moment when his vision hit the world stage. They had the March on Washington. So many people came; the whole Mall was full. You can watch videos of it on YouTube. It's so incredibly inspiring. He shares with the world the vision he has risked his life for, at this point for a decade. He has shown that he is all in and willing to give everything for this cause, even to be in prison. One of the things he says in his autobiography is, I might be in prison for a decade, but that's okay, because the cause is worth it. The change for our nation, the change for the people, the prospects for our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren are worth the sacrifices we have to make today. AUDREY: These are some of the words of that speech. He gave it one hundred years after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed by Lincoln. He's standing there in front of the Lincoln Memorial, pleading with those in power to bring greater levels of freedom to the nation. I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal." I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" Closing and Invitation AUDREY: As I have said throughout this podcast, Martin Luther King Jr.'s life and legacy continue to inspire me today to be a woman of vision, to devote myself to causes and ideals that are higher and bigger than myself, and to let God help me in the work I am called to. That is why we are The Mission Driven Mom. AUDREY: If these ideas resonate with you and you would like to dig deeper, I have a few suggestions. I have an older podcast, I think it's number 36, called Meeting Life with Nonviolent Resistance. It goes deeper into the tactics and principles of nonviolent resistance and how you can use some of those principles in your everyday life. I would encourage you to go listen to that podcast, which we've linked below. I would also encourage you to keep listening to these podcasts and go back to some of the ones we've done over the previous few months, because these are all the concepts and principles we want to arm you with to be the visionary and the creator of your own life: to take hold of the problem stories you have right now, arrest them, turn them around, and gain a better vision and future for yourself. AUDREY: And most of all, we would love for you to join our Mothers of Creation celebration. It's not just an event, although it is an event, live in Provo, Utah this September. We would love to see you there, meet you in person, and help you get to know our community. We are super excited. We're going to take your problem stories in the morning and teach you how to deconstruct them, how to see the drama and victim types in your life, how to disconnect from that problem story, reframe it, become a creator, build a new vision, and write your creator declaration. It's going to be an incredible day. AUDREY: In the meantime, as soon as you sign up, you get access to the private community that's being mentored by Lindsey Wright. You've seen her on the podcast recently. She's digging deeper, doing workshops that are recorded and available to you immediately. You can meet other moms who are going to be there and get to know them before you arrive. We'd love to have you there. We'd love for you to bring a friend. But most of all, we would love for you to be empowered with truths that can make you free, and to be the creator of your own life by determining a new vision for yourself, having passion around that vision, and taking the necessary baby steps to get you there. That's the key. Martin Luther King did it from the time he was a young boy, and he changed the world. But all of us can do it right now in our everyday lives. You have far more power than you think you have to turn your life around, and it won't take very long. You just need those principles. AUDREY: Thank you so much for joining me today. It was a joy to share the life of Martin Luther King Jr. and his legacy with you. He's a man who continues to inspire me today. We'll see you next time.
EP 172 Confusion, Clarity & Vision with Jennifer Hudye
Have you ever imagined how things would turn out in the future—the perfect man you'd marry, the beautifully obedient children you'd have— and then, years later, when things were messy and hard, you wondered what had gone wrong? I did. And what I had to learn was that the image I was holding all that time was not a vision. It was an expectation. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th Vision Driven Global - Jennifer Hudye's company Vivid Vision - the Vivid Vision process, and the free Vivid Vision Mindmap with question prompts and templates for building your three-year vision Conscious Copy & Co. - Jennifer's messaging and copywriting company AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 172: Confusion, Clarity & Vision with Jennifer Hudye Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. I’m honored to have Jennifer Hudye with us today. AUDREY: I’ll read a tiny bit about her. She’s the founder and CEO of Vision Driven, which sounds awesome and very much aligns with us: a company devoted to helping people get crystal clear on their next big vision and then actually live into it. In 2016, she partnered with Cameron Herold, the author of Vivid Vision and a top coach to CEOs and COOs, and became a driving force behind the Vivid Vision process. Since then, she and her team have guided more than 2,000 companies, many run by leaders like Tony Robbins, Joe Polish, and Brendon Burchard, in crafting a compelling picture of their future. I also know you have a sister company called Conscious Copy & Co., where you help business leaders and individuals get their messaging out through copy. And I thought it was fascinating that you’ve been doing this almost since you started walking, building businesses in your teen years, launching them and selling them. You’ve had a bit of a wild ride, a different adventure than the average person, so I was really excited to talk to you about all of that. AUDREY: Before we dive in, I want to read a little section from the book Vivid Vision. I’ll tell you in a bit how I got my hands on it and why it’s been so helpful to me personally. Moms especially, as I read this paragraph, I want you to replace the word “organization” or “company” with “family,” and think about your own family culture. No one else in your organization [family] knows with any certainty what it is you want to build. At best, they guess. If you want your team [family] to build what you see, you must provide them with the means of understanding it. Otherwise, you will get different ideas of what to build. Everyone will grasp a different part, but no one will put it all together. No one will comprehend what it is you want to build as a whole. The result? Confusion. Everyone will have a unique, subjective experience, drawing a picture that looks nothing like anyone else’s. AUDREY: In other words, your family is without alignment. So before we get to the concept of vision, which I want you to define for us, I’d love to start with this word: confusion. I saw one of your videos where you talked about what confusion is, and it was fascinating. I think if we talk about confusion the way you teach it, it will help us contrast it with vision. What Confusion Really Is JENNIFER: First off, thank you so much for having me, Audrey. I’m grateful to be here. My definition of confusion is thinking you should know something, but you don’t. AUDREY: Wow. JENNIFER: Confusion oftentimes has two components. The first is getting caught up in the how of something before you’ve ever identified the what, the where, and the why. Say you want to go on a cross-country road trip. You start driving, but you haven’t plugged in a destination. Then you start to feel this sense of confusion: “I don’t even know how I’m going to get there.” Well, have you identified where you’re going in the first place? We do this in so many places in our lives. JENNIFER: The second component is fear: the internal story we tell ourselves about why we can’t have what we want. I’ve guided over 10,000 people and leaders through the Vivid Vision process over the last decade, and I can tell you that more often than not, it’s either the how or fear, but the fear is underneath it. Confusion can be a really convenient cover-up for avoiding the truth. AUDREY: Yes. JENNIFER: Because what if you state what it is that you want, and then you don’t get it? AUDREY: You don’t get it. That’s right. JENNIFER: What does that mean about you? So we have these fears running in the background, and we label them as confusion. We label them as being stuck, because that’s actually more convenient than knowing what we want. Because if we know what we want, then we have to be responsible to the knowing. [Speaker to verify against audio: the next paragraph may be Jennifer continuing rather than Audrey.] AUDREY: And then when we fall short, it’s a new way for us to be a failure. It lowers our status in our own eyes and creates even more self-deprecation and that horrible self-talk. And we don’t want to go there. So fascinating. Abraham Maslow, in one of his books I love, has a chapter called “The Need to Know and the Fear of Knowing.” I think that’s what you’re pointing to: we need to know, but we’re afraid to know, because knowing anything makes us responsible for that knowing. And the truth can liberate us. That’s a core idea we talk a lot about at The Mission Driven Mom, that the truth has the power to make us free. But often that truth is painful, and it must be faced and championed. That’s the work. The Opposite of Clarity JENNIFER: On the topic of confusion and being stuck, I’ve found a lot of people think the opposite of clarity is confusion. I haven’t seen that, working with clients or in my own experience. The opposite of clarity is the unknown. Clarity is the known: I have the information, the education, and the insight within myself to make a decision and move forward. The unknown is the opposite. I don’t have the information, the education, or the insight. It’s the open void. But there isn’t emotional baggage that comes along with the unknown. JENNIFER: For example, when I went to college, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. I’m partially dyslexic and I hate reading, which is ironic because I ended up building a writing company. In my first year I took some law classes and realized, wow, I really hate this. This is not for me. So for about two years, I didn’t know what I wanted, but I wasn’t emotionally distressed about it. I thought, okay, I just need to go try things, see what I like, and that will give me some clues about what I do want. JENNIFER: As moms, or as we get older, we understand that for kids. We give them a lot of grace in those periods where they don’t know what they want. We say, no problem, go try what’s on the buffet menu, go have experiences. But then we don’t give ourselves that grace. And so we get locked in confusion, which is that middle ground between the known and the unknown: thinking we should know something, but we don’t. And that’s like an e-brake on our own evolution. Vision vs. Expectation AUDREY: Wow, that’s profound. And I think it’s exacerbated by our social media age, where you look out into the void and it looks like other people know what you think you should know. That creates even more internal turmoil: why haven’t I arrived? AUDREY: I’d love to hear your thoughts on something. I know this personally because I’ve done it many times myself: I thought I was setting a vision, but I was actually setting an expectation. How would you distinguish between clarity, vision, and expectation? I feel like those words get jumbled into one thing, and we think they’re all the same, but they’re very different, and knowing the difference can help us. How would you define vision and hold it as something separate? JENNIFER: That’s a great question. I think of expectation as how it needs to look in the process of getting somewhere. There’s a little bit of a white-knuckle grip on it, and a deflection from reality. AUDREY: Yes. JENNIFER: The definition of vision is simply a painted picture of something in the future. If you were to take a time machine into the future, what do you want it to look like, and how do you want to feel? You can do that in different time frames. I think there’s a lot of value in a ten-year vision. In our process, we use three years. JENNIFER: But I think it’s so important to hold that vision lightly, to say, “I would like this reality, or something better,” knowing that we don’t have all the insight and sometimes life will redirect us somewhere even better than we could have imagined. Whereas expectation says it needs to look this way, and it needs to look this way in how I get there. It’s almost like getting in the way of this amazing energy called life, because we think we know better. Which I have done. Anyone listening who’s thinking, “I’ve done that,” I’ll put both my hands up. AUDREY: Yes. One hundred percent. And I hadn’t thought about it quite this way until you explained it, but what I see in myself and in the women I work with is that expectation is often a stumbling block, whereas vision creates forward movement. I think expectation is a stumbling block because expectations are often completely arbitrary. They don’t come from a place of knowing, like you’re talking about. You’re not learning how to get there. You’re not being intentional. You’re layering life with something you hope is going to show up, but it’s not part of a plan. You don’t know how it’s going to come about, or you don’t have a clear sense of the reality and what you’d need to know to get there. AUDREY: A vision is a very intentional process. An expectation is kind of a lazy man’s way of living: I think that if I live this way or do this thing, I should have this, so I’m going to expect it. But you don’t actually pay a price to know whether those two things even equate, or whether what you’re doing now can even cause the outcome you expect. With a vision, I love that you said a painted picture, because we’ve paid a price to know something about it. Then we’re working hard to know who we need to be to step into that vision and what needs to happen along the way. It’s a very proactive, intentional process. Expectation or Faith? JENNIFER: I do think there’s a level of expectation that needs to come along with realizing a vision. I would maybe upgrade the word to faith. About four and a half years ago, my husband and I decided to move cross-country from San Diego to Austin, Texas. It was at the peak of a lot of people moving to Texas, and the housing market was on fire. We had a lot of friends moving around the same time, and many of them were telling us stories about how they couldn’t find a house and were living in Airbnbs. We were in a holding pattern. We hadn’t fully decided we were making the move. We hadn’t hired movers or given notice on the place we were staying. JENNIFER: For about eight months, I had crafted a vision. I listened to it in my own voice every single day on my walk. I was speaking into existence the exact home we were going to find in Austin: what it would look like when you walk in, open, spacious, expansive. Every window you look out, you see nature and trees. A clear separation between where we work and where we live. A place for us to host. Every room you walk into feels like home. JENNIFER: So I was very clear on the vision, and I was walking along the beach one day with my husband, and I said, “We need to decide that we’re moving. Even though everybody else’s reality says the market isn’t set up for us to find this very specific place, I have faith that we will. But we’ve got to do our part.” So we gave our notice. We booked movers, even though we had not found the place yet. I said, “We’re moving in 30 days. If we have to put our stuff in storage and figure it out from there, we will. This is the move we need to make.” There was a level of expectation, or, I’d say, faith. AUDREY: Faith. I like that better. JENNIFER: Life was going to meet us and bring us that perfect place. And literally a couple of days later, we got a message from our realtor saying, “I’m pretty sure I found your dream place. It checks every box you’ve said you want.” The next day we flew to Austin and walked the place. We were in and out of Austin in maybe 90 minutes. We flew back home and said, “Yeah, that’s our place.” And we received the keys the exact day the movers were dropping off our stuff. So there was a level of expectation there, but there was also a level of clarity that we weren’t willing to settle for. AUDREY: Yeah. The energy is different. If I say to somebody, “I expect you to do this,” that has a negative energy and connotation around it. But when I say, “I have faith that you will,” faith is a principle of action. Faith means we’re moving forward. We’re doing something. We’re acting in the world. I really love changing that out. AUDREY: Your story reminds me of a podcast I did recently on Viktor Frankl and Man’s Search for Meaning. He tells the story of a man in the camp who said he heard a voice telling him he was going to be released on a certain day. He believed it with all his heart. And he died on that day. He was released from the camp through his own death, because he believed so much in that result. Why Vivid, and Why Three Years? AUDREY: Okay. So with all of those definitions established, let’s talk about this in a little more detail. What does the word vivid have to do with it, and why three years? JENNIFER: If we define vision as stepping into a moment in the future and painting a picture of what you want to see, the more specific you can be, the better, because the more real it feels. If I asked you to tell me about your life right now in the area of your health, you could describe it in detail: what time you wake up, what time you go to bed, how your sleep is, your nutrition, how you feel in your body, what kind of exercise you do. You could describe it in vivid detail because it’s your reality. The same goes for your relationships, your vocation and where you spend your time and energy with your gifts, your finances, and your lifestyle: where you live, where you travel, your hobbies. The same is true for vision. You want to be able to describe in vivid detail what you want your life to look like. JENNIFER: I use three years, and there have been a lot of studies on this, because it’s far enough in the future that you can dream big without needing to know the how, but close enough that you can get vivid and specific. It’s that sweet spot. JENNIFER: But I think it all stems first from looking at your current reality and asking, where am I noticing longing and discontent in these five quadrants? Because that is life speaking to you, saying there’s unlived life here. If you’re thinking about your finances and you’re feeling stressed, feeling longing, feeling discontent, that’s a signal. There’s unlived life here, and something more wanting to come through. So if you could have it all your way, what would that look like? What Do You Know for Sure? AUDREY: I love that. In one of your videos, you gave three questions for when people are in confusion and chaos. The first question you recommended for moving out of the chaos and toward the vision was, “What do you know for sure?” And I was floored. As far back as I can remember in my adult life, every time things got really awful or I felt so overwhelmed I didn’t know how to move forward, I would steal time away, grab a journal, and ask myself that exact question. What do I know for sure? About myself, about my life, about the people I love, about what’s happening, about what I want? That open-ended question was so centering. It got me back into a more positive frame where I could start working toward something intentional instead of playing out all these things I didn’t really want. JENNIFER: That’s exactly it, Audrey. It’s so easy for us to go to where we’re confused and ruminate on that. The very first place to go is clarity. Where do I already have clarity? What do I know for sure? In these areas of my life, what is a constant? And the more specific you can get, the better. If what I know for sure is that I want to be healthy, well, what do you know for sure about what that looks like? Health is fairly universal for most of us. We want to wake up energized. We want to go to sleep rested, feeling like we got the most out of our day, with a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction. JENNIFER: Maybe it’s in the area of your family: “I want my kids to be thriving and healthy.” The question I always like to ask there is, how will you know that’s true? If you and I were a fly on the wall and saw your kids healthy and thriving, how would we know? When that’s realized, what does it look like? JENNIFER: Then the opposite end of the spectrum, which we talked about earlier, is the unknown. What don’t you know about your future that you’re okay with? Maybe you’re not sure if you’ll be in a different house, and you’re okay with that. Or you’re not sure whether you’ll be in a particular job or role or start your own business, but you’re not ruminating on it. You’re just not in that season yet, or you don’t have enough research or insight. JENNIFER: And the third question is, where do you think you should know what you want, but you don’t? That’s the confusion piece. I almost guarantee that any of the answers you list will fall into either a how question or a fear question. Maybe it’s, “I want to start a business, but I don’t know how to get customers,” or “I don’t know exactly what topic I want.” Or, “I want to move to a different state, but I’m not sure. Do we want to be closer to family, or to this?” Oftentimes it’s either a mindset issue, or you need more education or information. A Vision Worth the Sacrifice AUDREY: I love that. I’ll tell you really quickly. I launched The Mission Driven Mom as a hobby. I didn’t plan to be in business. I just wanted to help moms. It grew and surprised me. It grew pretty quickly, and I didn’t know what to do with that. After about four years, it kind of collapsed. The technical problem at the heart of it was a broken business model that wasn’t scalable and needed fixing. But the real reasons we went silent for a couple of years were exactly what you’re pointing to: the how and the fear. I didn’t know how to run a business properly, and I had a lot of fears that I couldn’t do it. What would the cost be for me and my family? What would it mean? What would I have to do? All those layers. AUDREY: Fast forward a year or so, and my husband comes to me and says, “This program you’ve built has such a profound impact on people. I feel almost a call, or a responsibility, to champion it. I’ll help you. Will you come back to it with me? Let’s figure this out. We can do it.” Facing the fear and making a conscious decision to figure out the how let us back into it. The business still brought in some money each year, so there had been money sitting in the account. We hired some people and got going again. But we were starting from scratch in the sense that we had to wake everybody back up. I had gone quiet. I hadn’t been podcasting or anything. AUDREY: Then we hit a wall last fall, when it was time for us to make a personal investment. The funds that had been sitting in the account were gone, and my husband said, “Okay, now it’s time for us to invest again.” We had invested the last time, and it had gone sour. And I just hit this wall. I said, “I’m not doing it. I’m not going to make a personal investment again.” He said, “What are you talking about? I thought that’s what we were doing. I thought we were going to do whatever it takes.” And I said, “Apparently I’ve drawn a line, and that’s my line, and I’m not willing to go past it.” He said, “But why?” And I said, “I don’t know.” AUDREY: So for three or four weeks, I did not much else. I lived my life and took care of what I needed to, but most of my time was spent journaling, meditating, praying, studying, researching, and thinking, until I got to a point where I could see what this business could be that would be worth my sacrifice. That was the point I had to get to. AUDREY: I think it’s the point parents have to get to. You want a baby. That sounds fun. You’ve always wanted to be a parent. You get into it, and a few years in, maybe five, maybe ten, maybe fifteen, you recognize it’s requiring more of you than you thought you’d have to give. You’re pushed up against a wall of decision. What am I willing to give for this? Why am I in it? What’s my vision of what it’s going to be? I didn’t want the cost of the money and the time and the sacrifice. I wanted a vision big enough to inspire me, and hopefully others, that I was willing to give my life energy to. Life is short. Life is precious. I have very little time here. If I’m going to give my life’s energy to something, it’s got to be a vision big enough. AUDREY: And that’s really why Kate is with us. Right at that time, we had asked her to help build out a marketing strategy. I went to her and said, “Before you build it out, here’s where I’m at. Here’s the vision of what I’m willing to give my life energy for.” And she said, “Go buy the book Vivid Vision and write it out for me so I can see it.” That’s how I was introduced to the book and the process. It was so helpful. It was like a guidebook. I went point by point and did everything the book told me to do. In fact, I printed it off and brought it with me. It’s five or six pages. It’s our Vivid Vision, and we read it every quarter. It unifies the whole team. We’re in the thick of it now, really starting to gain some momentum and traction, and it’s a super exciting, rewarding journey to be on. AUDREY: At the heart of that whole story, I’ve had to do the same thing in my family. I had expectations of what things were going to look like twenty years in the future, and when they didn’t look like that, I had to go back to the drawing board and decide on a new vision for my family. Who am I going to be in my family? What can I control? What’s my vision of what our family can look like that’s within the realm of my ability to control? It’s been so liberating to recreate a new, updated, upgraded vision that then fuels my everyday activities. Why Vision Matters AUDREY: I have a couple more questions for you as we finish up, but I want to read one other thing from the book, because I’d love to talk for a minute about the benefits: to you, to the clients you’ve worked with, and to others you’ve seen do the work of building a vision. The benefits to employees [family members] of a Vivid Vision don’t stop there, however. This company-wide [family-wide] alignment also aids your team in becoming decision makers themselves. One goal as the company leader is to develop leaders within the organization. AUDREY: And that is what mothers do. They’re leaders who develop leaders. The more work you can responsibly delegate, the more you can focus on bigger issues. One hallmark of a good company [and a great family] is the ability to promote from within, which leads to a culture of trust, dedication, and willingness. AUDREY: Those are universal principles that apply to any organization where we’re working together. So the benefits are tremendous, because not only do you have this clarity for yourself, but it’s helped me so much to sort through all the opportunities that start to come your way. When you move in a direction, people see that you’re in motion, opportunities come, and you have to say no most of the time. But what do you say no to? Whether it’s your time and energy as a mom, a friend, a spouse, an employee, or an owner, you have to say no most of the time. It’s only when you have this vivid vision that you know where and how and why to say no, and you can say it with confidence. And the people around you also know how to clear the path so you can make it through the forest. AUDREY: So why is this a message that’s worth championing to you? What benefits have come from it, like this incredible experience you had with your home? Are there other personal experiences, or experiences with clients, that you’d love to share about why this matters so much? JENNIFER: So many. I want to highlight a few things you shared. The vision is like an anchor: what are you going to dedicate your time and energy to, which is essentially your life force? What are you going to dedicate your life to? If we don’t intentionally think about the answer to that question, we get caught in default mode, where we just go through the motions of whatever life throws at us. I think about 95% of people live in that default mode, following whatever patterns society or family has said is just the way it’s got to be. There isn’t conscious creation, like you teach in your events. Setting a vision you would love is saying, this is what I’m going to dedicate my life to. It’s intentional, so I know how I’m going to show up every single day, aligned to that. JENNIFER: In my own experience, Audrey, I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family. One of the gifts of that was that my parents always said you can do anything you put your mind to. It’s just a matter of determining what you’re going to put your mind to. Early on in college, I was really grateful to find some key mentors who helped me collapse the timeline on results that might have taken me ten or twenty years into three. One of them was Cameron Herold. I was building my first business, bootstrapping it and trying to make enough month by month to pay my bills, and he said, “No, this is not how you’re going to grow an extraordinary company. You want to imagine three years into the future. What is the company you’ve built?” I followed that advice and ended up building one of the top copywriting agencies in the personal development space in less than three years. JENNIFER: Then I had another mentor, Mary Morrissey, who came at the perfect time. She said, “Yes, and it’s about so much more than business. What do you want for your life?” Vision is a spiritual quest. If you look at any spiritual text, it keeps coming back to vision. Without a brighter future, we stay stuck in our own circumstances. Instead of having a circumstance, like a health diagnosis, a family member passing away, or a miscarriage, we allow it to have us, and we get caught up in a loop and don’t know how to get out of it. JENNIFER: In my own life, I love this work every day. It’s helped me build my dream business, and it’s helped me build my dream marriage. My husband and I have been together ten years. We sit down every three years, and every quarter for the last 35 quarters, and review our vision for our marriage and our family together: what we’re building and why. AUDREY: Wow. JENNIFER: And even in my own immediate family, I’ve held a vision of what our family gets to look like. We don’t have kids yet. We’re starting to prepare; we’re planning to have them next year. But I see a vision of the future where my kids are surrounded by loving, conscious, emotionally aware adults. Imagine what’s going to be possible for them if they’re surrounded by emotionally regulated adults. That inspires me every day to get it together and work on myself. It’s allowed me to build a dream life. JENNIFER: But more than anything, I use it in my darkest moments. When my dad got really sick last year and the odds didn’t look great, one of the first things I did was say, okay, when we pray and when we’re communicating, we are holding the vision together of him being healthy and strong and well, and aligning my entire family around that vision. So I use it everywhere. An Act of Faith AUDREY: That’s so beautiful. And to your point about it being a spiritual journey, looping all the way back to the beginning of our conversation and talking about faith: it’s an act of faith. It’s a very courageous thing to spend your time on what you’re intentionally moving toward instead of reacting to the stimuli that come at you. And it’s a decision. You’re going to choose that instead. I call it a creator declaration. Some people might call it a set of affirmations; I call them truth statements. One of mine is that I intentionally choose my thoughts and words each day, because I know they are the seeds and soil from which my creations grow. That’s a lot of what we’re talking about. AUDREY: And I would say it’s impossible to move intentionally toward something that isn’t pretty clear. How can you know what you’re trying to create unless you’ve taken the time to sit with yourself and imagine it? I love your example of walking each morning and talking to yourself. I tried for so long to visualize with images in my mind, because I thought that’s what everybody was saying to do. Then I realized I just make voice memos. Sometimes I say it out loud, or I listen to myself talking about what it is I’m working toward. AUDREY: This vivid vision fuels our company. We’re all lifted every quarter as we’re reminded again: this is where we’re headed, this is what we’re doing. It’s so unifying. And that can happen everywhere. Like you’re saying, you can align with people by creating shared visions with them. What are we doing in this friendship? What are we doing in this family? What are we doing in this marriage? I feel like it’s so vital and not talked about enough, and your framework is so incredibly helpful. One Thing to Do This Week AUDREY: My last question: if there’s a mom listening and she could do just one thing this week to start creating a vision for her life, what would you have her do? JENNIFER: I love this. For the mom who’s listening, especially if you’re thinking, “I keep hearing everybody tell me to get clear on what I want. If it were that easy, I would have done it. Where do I start?” this is what I recommend for all my clients. If you’re feeling a little rusty at connecting to your desires, every morning for the next seven days, and if you really want to do it, the next 30 days, take out a journal and start with the headline “What I Would Love.” Then start making bullet points about aspects of your vision: your desires, what you would love, what you want. Start with what you know for sure. JENNIFER: You may find yourself repeating things over and over, and that’s okay. I think of it like turning on a tap that hasn’t been on for a long time. You’re going to get dark, murky water first. But if you keep the tap on, it keeps flowing, and eventually you get that crisp, clear water. The same thing goes for your desires. So do this as a little morning ritual. It should only take about three minutes to start connecting to that vision for your life. You can start with three years, or you can keep it open-ended if three years feels like a stretch, depending on where you are in your journey. Closing AUDREY: I love that. That’s a perfect place to start. I’ve done that so many times, and it’s so helpful as a kick-start: I want to stop being in drama. I want to stop being reactionary. I want to be a creator instead, have a vision, and create that vision. That’s so beautiful. Thank you so much for that. How can our listeners find you and your work? What projects or programs might benefit them? We’ll put all the links and resources with this podcast in the description. JENNIFER: On social media, you can follow me on Instagram at [handle to verify]. On Facebook, it’s still my maiden name, Jennifer Hudye, H-U-D-Y-E. Our website is visiondrivenglobal.com [URL to verify], and there you’ll find our free Vivid Vision mind map, which has a series of questions you can start asking yourself to gain clarity on your three-year vision. That would be a great first step. AUDREY: I love that so much. And for those of you following The Mission Driven Mom, we still have some tickets available for our event this fall in Utah, in the beautiful mountains with the fall colors. We’re going to talk all about moving from drama to creator, and we’ll put a vision together at the end of the day. We’d love to see you there. Links for all of these resources are below. AUDREY: Jennifer, thank you so much for being here. It was so interesting and enlightening to hear your take on some key words we use all the time, and to realize we sometimes think about them in ways that aren’t helpful. Hopefully these new definitions and new ideas about how to create a vision will bless our moms. Thank you for all you’ve shared, for your life’s work, and for being who you are so you could share what you’ve learned and who you’ve become. Thanks for joining us. JENNIFER: Thank you, Audrey.
EP 171 Vision Panel: Mothers of Creation Speakers
Have you ever had someone you love decide to walk out of your life? Cadie did. Someone very close to her decided a few years back that they didn't want to be in her life any longer, and there's been no contact since. While Cadie was sharing with us her pain and struggle over this loss, we all had a profound realization: Even though she has no contact with this person, Cadie still has a relationship with them! Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation Conference - Provo, Utah - September 26th The Power of TED - David Emerald's work on the creator orientation and the empowerment dynamic Tracie references The Karpman Drama Triangle - Stephen Karpman's original framework for the victim, rescuer, and persecutor roles Episode 159: The Six Victim Types with Lindsey Wright Episode 166: Creator Orientation, A Panel Discussion Episode 169: What Vision Actually Is AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 171: Vision, A Panel Discussion Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. So happy to have you back with us again today. We have our beautiful panel of upcoming speakers for our Mothers of Creation event this fall. We've got Tracie Hyde, Lindsey Wright, and Cadie Hatch with me. Today we're going to talk about the final key theme of this event, and of this whole process of moving from our problem stories and the places where we feel immensely stuck to really moving forward, having some serious success, and making things different on a long-term basis. AUDREY: We've talked about the victim types, and how understanding them creates a spark and turns us on to the fact that we are being a victim and we need to be different. We've talked about how creator orientation gives us new hope. Cadie talked about how it makes us feel liberated, and Lindsey talked about how it helps her feel relief, like a new beginning, turning toward others, all of these beautiful things. But then how do we maintain it? We get that we're acting like a victim, and that we could be a creator instead, and we want to be that. Vision is at the heart of how we stay there. It's how we get to the end result. So let's start by putting some words around what we mean when we say vision. How would you describe that? What Do We Mean by Vision? TRACIE: Vision is something we hold in our mind that we have done the work to spiritually create before we bring it into the world. It's something we have in the forefront of our mind. In victim mode, we're reacting to problems, and the problems pop up like whack-a-mole and we're just whacking them down. But with vision, we actually have something we carefully and intentionally created in our mind that we are walking toward, working toward. AUDREY: That's a beautiful description. Any other thoughts or descriptions around that? We've talked in previous podcasts about how sometimes our expectations and our ideals can get us into trouble. So what's the difference between an expectation and this idea of vision? Vision Versus Expectation LINDSEY: The culture can say, just envision it. If you want a million dollars and an island in the Bahamas, just imagine it and then it will happen. That's not what we mean. For me, vision is based in reality, meaning it isn't unrealistic. It's based on principles. It's something that, like Tracie said, we've spiritually created. This thing we're holding in the mind, this way we want to show up in the world. But it's realistic. AUDREY: I would add one other little caveat, and I think it's what you're getting at, Lindsey. It's within the realm of our control. One of the things that really trips me up in the expectation realm is two things. One, I have to remind myself that if my expectations are higher than God's, then I'm in the realm of the impossible and the ridiculous. But also that I can't have expectations for other people. I can only have expectations around my responses and my creations. Those are the things I can hold and that I can control. So that would be part of how I would flesh out what we mean by vision. Cadie, you were going to add something. CADIE: That was what I was going to say. I can have a vision of what I want my relationships to look like, but I can't control what the other person in the relationship is going to want or do next. It's unrealistic for me to force that on them. So a question I have been finding helpful is, what kind of person do I need to be to live this vision I'm thinking about? I can't control their response, but I can control mine. Who do I want to be as I get older? What kind of person do I want to be? What would that look like in this relationship? Then it's all my responsibility to be that person. AUDREY: Great point. Another word that's used in some of the sources we're using to prepare this event is outcome. Fear Versus Faith AUDREY: Cadie, Tracie has given the example in past podcasts and past discussions about her family gatherings. Maybe she knows what she doesn't want. One of the words we haven't used yet is fear versus faith. I think that's a very important fundamental difference here. When we're in the victim mentality, we're very fearful. You can see threads of this if you go back and listen to the ways we described problem stories and problem situations. There are a lot of fears about what we're going to do, what other people will think, how we're not going to show up and be enough, all of that. Creator orientation is a place of faith, and faith is a principle of action and power. So we're taking action around a predetermined outcome. The reason Tracie kept talking about this spiritual creation is because we've gone to the work of deciding what it is we want instead. AUDREY: So much of what's happening in victim is that something has happened in life. We've been in an accident, or someone has betrayed us, and it's something we didn't want to have happen to us. In that sense we are kind of a victim of life, but we don't want to be in victim orientation. We want to take that experience, turn it into a challenger, and show up as a creator. But we cannot do that without determining what we want instead, now that these are my new circumstances. When my father passed suddenly when I was sixteen years old, that was my new circumstance. There was no going back. There was no changing it. There was only accepting it and creating new visions and outcomes of who I was going to be, how I was going to show up for the people around me, how I was going to be in my family. Vision is that outcome we predetermine, that we spiritually create, like Tracie kept saying. We hold it in our mind. We cling to it to keep us in that creator orientation. Willing to Do the Work LINDSEY: I love what Cadie said about holding this creation in our mind, this outcome. But we're also willing to do the work. We're willing to act in faith. We're willing to take responsibility. So the vision is based on reality, and it's based on what we can actually control, but we're also willing to do the work. We don't just set the vision and then expect it to happen. We're taking the responsibility to make it happen. [Speaker attribution uncertain in this passage. Voice matches Lindsey’s earlier "based in reality" language, but verify against audio.] AUDREY: That's a good component of vision. And creating the vision is a big part of taking ownership. We can't just decide to stay a creator. If we don't do the work to build out a new vision for ourselves in this new reality we find ourselves in, then we will flip back into [victim] orientation. There's no other way for it to go, because we don't know why we're being a creator. We lose sight of it constantly, and those negative emotions and reactions to a situation we didn't choose, or don't like, are going to overwhelm us if we're not hanging on to a new vision for ourselves, our lives, our way of being. It's indispensable to staying in creator orientation. [The recording says "flip back into creator orientation" here. Corrected to victim, which is clearly what was meant. Confirm before publishing.] Cadie’s Story: A Relationship With No Contact CADIE: If I could share a little experience on this, I would love to. I have a person in my life who I have a very close relationship with. Some years ago this person decided they didn't want to be involved in my life anymore. You might be able to say in some terms that this person abandoned our relationship. When that happened, it was a pretty traumatic experience for me, and I felt like I legitimately was the victim of that circumstance. And I didn't want to be. CADIE: One of the ways I know I am in drama is that I obsess over the same event over and over. It gets replayed over and over. That's a huge part of victim. That's all I thought about. When I didn't have to be thinking of anything else, that was what I was thinking about. So I knew I was stuck, because victims are always stuck. And I wanted to change that. It took me a long time to be able to change it. MDM is such a wonderfully faith based community, and there are some circumstances in which I could not get out of victim by myself. On that one I had to turn to God and ask him to help me. He got me out of victim on that one. CADIE: However, just like Audrey was saying, I can easily flip back into victim if I dwell on that problem. But the thing that keeps me out of it is this idea of a vision of what that relationship could look like someday. I cannot control this other person at all. But like I was saying before, what kind of person do I need to be so that if this person came back to me, we could start a relationship again? I need to be the kind of person who has an open heart and is willing to forgive. I need to be the kind of person who is able to have maybe challenging conversations, but with empathy and love. I can't control the other person, but my vision is of who I want to be. [Unrecoverable phrase in the recording.] I'm working on becoming that person. Choosing the Kind of Relationship You Have AUDREY: That's beautiful, Cadie. While you were telling that story I was thinking, and I don't know if you've thought about it quite this way, but part of what you're saying is that you actually still have a relationship with this person. You are choosing the kind of relationship you have with this person, even when there's no contact. That is such a creator way of being in the world. It's a vision focused, optimistic perspective. And it's a choice. It's an intention. You're choosing to forgive. You're choosing to love. You're choosing to think positively. You are absolutely controlling your responses to a situation you didn't choose, you didn't want, and that was incredibly painful for you. That's such a great example of the way we can choose to be creators. AUDREY: Could you juxtapose for us how you were feeling when you were in that victim place toward this person, stewing about it, versus how you're feeling right now as you're talking? Because in both instances you were still in a relationship with this person. It's like that statistic about the big chunk of women who, after they divorce, are still miserable for years and years, because they're still in a relationship with their ex. They're just not choosing to be in a good one. CADIE: Before, it was quite awful. All you're doing is replaying. I was rehashing every conversation. I was replaying everything that had gone wrong, and it felt terrible. I was miserable all throughout the day. I was tired, because it takes a lot of emotional energy to do that over and over, and to be angry all of the time over this thing. It got in the way of my relationships. I'd be watching my kids playing outside, and instead of laughing over the funny things they were doing, my eyes were tracking them but my brain was rehashing. CADIE: Now I don't obsess over it at all. Most of the time my thought is, this person is right in the palm of God's hand. He knows exactly where they are, and I don't need to worry about it anymore. I just need to be ready. Will they come back? And if they do, what kind of person do I need to be to say, come back, I've been waiting for you? AUDREY: What are your feelings when you think about them now, when you think about this situation? CADIE: There can still be times when it can be difficult, when I can think, it's tough that this is happening. I still don't like this. But overall, when I think about them, I try to remember the best memories. AUDREY: Do you have more peace? Do you feel more peaceful than you did? CADIE: More hopeful. Way more hopeful. AUDREY: That's beautiful. Does anybody else have another example of how hanging on to a vision has helped them stay in creator orientation? Tracie’s Double Vision TRACIE: I have a child who has a lot of lofty goals right now, and sometimes this child doesn't follow through with her plans. I can tend to get into persecutor mode quite quickly in that situation, or I can get into rescuer quite easily, trying to smooth her way and do a lot of things for her because it will make it easier and faster. But I have to remember that I'm in drama in those instances. I need to hold a vision of how I can show up for her, the type of coach and mentor I want to be for her. TRACIE: It's a double vision. It's how I want to show up, but also who she is as a child of God, and what truly is best for her personal growth. Is it this really narrowed goal she has, or is it becoming a whole, complete person, and all the other experiences she could have? So it's this dual vision I have, for her and also for me. I have to keep that constantly before me, to calm down in those moments and step intentionally into creator instead of into victim, or the drama triangle and all those roles. That's helped me a lot in that relationship, to keep that vision and to intentionally choose the creator empowerment dynamic. Rescuing, Growth, and Character AUDREY: Thank you, Tracie. That's beautiful. For me, when I'm really holding a vision, I was thinking of one of my own children when you were sharing that example. And I was thinking of someone who stepped out of my life when Cadie was telling her example. Very similar situations to both of you women. When I really am holding the proper vision, I feel a sense of calm and reassurance, remembering the principles, that it is better for my child to learn the lessons now while they're young. If I smooth the way too much, it will keep them from their growth. It will stunt their growth if I get in the way with all of my rescuing victim way of being. AUDREY: And the reason I'm doing that is because I don't want them to suffer. I don't want them to have pain. And yet pain and suffering are how we learn and grow. Muscles have to be torn down. Whatever the analogy is, that's the way to growth. Jordan Peterson has this beautiful thing he said once, that a mother's job is the hardest in the world, because she has to bring a child into the world and grow them up and then sacrifice them to the world. That's a very hard process that we're all in the middle of. So I hold a vision of, I trust God, and I trust his laws and his principles, and I'm going to step away and really orient myself to a different role, and hold a vision of who I'm going to be for them and not shortchange them in their growth. AUDREY: I feel calmer. I feel more in control of myself. I'm not giving in to my knee jerk reactions to rescue and soothe and pave the way and all those kinds of things. Those are some of the feelings I have when I really hang on to that vision and keep myself in creator orientation. And afterwards, when I'm in a hard moment and I really have to pull that vision to the forefront of my mind and cling to it, and I perform in a way I know was a creator way of being, I really feel proud of myself. Maybe that sounds funny to say, but there's this kind of self commendation of, that was hard. That was hard to be a creator in that moment. And I did it, and I'm a little bit stronger now, and I can do that again. We can have this upward trajectory of growth in ourselves as we choose the vision that keeps us a creator, and keep sculpting our character over time. I do believe this whole process is also a process of character sculpting. Exactly like Cadie said, it is a key way we can start to become that person we would really like to be. AUDREY: Thank you so much. Any last thoughts or words on holding vision, or using vision to stay in creator orientation, as we finish up? Remember How Good It Feels TRACIE: I have to say, just remember how good it feels when you have that vision, because it does take a lot of work. It's easy to know what you don't want. It's a lot harder to know what you do want. And it's work to write that down and to figure it out. But every time I've done that, I feel so much better. Like we talked about in the last episode, like Lindsey said, it's an exhale. It's calm. It's like, okay, now we're ready to go. And when I get stuck, as I still do in victim, I try to remember that you felt so much better. Remember the vision. Remember the vision. I just have to replay it, and it really does help. [Speaker attribution uncertain. This speaker refers to Lindsey in the third person, so it is Tracie or Cadie. Note also that this passage credits the "exhale" line to Lindsey, which contradicts the working attribution in the EP 166 transcript. Worth checking both against audio.] AUDREY: That's perfect. CADIE: It's so much easier to get excited about life when you're in creator mode. And that's really my goal for myself. I want to wake up in the morning excited for the things I'm going to create. [Speaker attribution uncertain.] AUDREY: I love that. It reminds me of something Stephen Covey said. He said that when we are principle centered, we see life as a great adventure, and adventures have pitfalls and traps, but they also have vistas. When we can see life that way, we know it won't be perfect, but we can have that realistic optimism that keeps us grounded, but also hopeful. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: I hope this little discussion on vision was helpful for those of you who were listening. I hope these podcasts we've been putting out around victim and drama and creator orientation and vision are proving to be helpful in your everyday life, that you're seeing yourself in the stories and examples we're sharing, and that you're feeling more armed to live according to better principles and to liberate yourself with truth. If you want to know more, keep listening, pass these podcasts along, and consider joining us at our event this fall. We would love to see you there. All the information is below in the description. Thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you again to Tracie, Lindsey, and Cadie for these incredible discussions. We're excited to be a speaking team presenting this fall. So grateful for them, and for all of you for listening. We will see you next time.
EP 170 She gave up art school to have a family
I'm re-sharing an episode from a few years ago, about a mother who really inspired me. When I first told this story, women heard echoes of their own deepest desires in it. I think you might too. It's about a woman named Jennie Butchart. Resources from the Episode Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th The Butchart Gardens - Brentwood Bay, British Columbia. Jennie's sunken garden, now a National Historic Site of Canada As a Man Thinketh by James Allen - the garden of the mind passage Audrey reads The Strangest Secret by Earl Nightingale - both quotes on becoming an intentional creator Episode 158: A Husband's Take: What Saved Our Marriage - the conversation with Blaine that Audrey references AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 170: Mission Driven Story — Jennie Butchart Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom, where we are empowering moms with principles and purpose. In preparation for our upcoming Mothers of Creation event this fall in Utah, I wanted to re-share with you a podcast I did a few years ago about a mother who really inspired me. Many women heard echoes of their own deepest desires in this true story, so I hope that you also catch the vision of how you can create and contribute in meaningful ways and bring your family along on the journey with you. A Gift Set Aside AUDREY: Our story today begins with a little girl named Jennie Kennedy. She was born into a modest middle class family and had a relatively happy childhood, but by the time she was twelve years old both her parents had passed away. She was orphaned and sent to live with her wealthy aunt, sort of a Pollyanna true story. Jennie's aunt was able to send her to a good school, one of the better schools in Canada, and there Jennie really thrived. She was intelligent and she loved to learn. She also proved to be an especially gifted artist. She excelled in her art classes, and her teachers and school administrators noticed her artistic ability. That is why, in her late high school years, she was offered a scholarship to go to Paris and study there. I am not exactly sure how old she was, but she was offered this scholarship. In the meantime, though, she met and fell in love with a man named Robert Butchart. AUDREY: They had fallen in love, and she wanted to marry him and have a family so badly that she actually turned down the Paris scholarship. In 1884 they were married. Cement, Limestone, and a Growing Garden AUDREY: The Butcharts were well off, so there was some money in the family, and they were able to take a trip to England. While they were there, Robert began looking around because he wanted to be in the cement business. I don't know if his family had already been in the cement business, but this was Robert's interest at the time. Incredibly, he was able to obtain a recipe for cement while he was in England that would allow him to be the first person to produce Portland cement in Canada, which was a much higher quality cement than what was available at the time. So when the couple returned to Canada, he set his sights on a plant. He wanted to open his own plant and produce cement. They were in Victoria, on the western side of Canada, and there was a limestone quarry that he needed for cement production. So they bought some land, some acres for themselves, and a quarry so that he could produce this cement. I don't know how much land there was in total, but he began to mine the quarry. He had some success in the business, and he was able to send bags of cement for the first time down to San Francisco and other places in the US and Canada. For a time it was a thriving business, and the Butcharts were having quite a bit of success with it. AUDREY: In the meantime, Jennie was starting her family. Remember how she was really artistic? Now that they lived out in this beautiful area, she decided she wanted to start gardening. She would express her artistic abilities in gardening. She started out planting flowers and shrubbery just around the house, learning about her plants, following her interests, and developing her artistic gifts and expressing them through gardening. She got better and better and better at it. As her abilities and knowledge grew, so did the garden. It got bigger and bigger over the next few years, as did her family. She worked hard to balance her mothering and wife roles with this artistic passion for gardening. It was wonderful not only to have this outlet, but to also garden with her children and teach them along the way. The Pit in the Backyard AUDREY: Well, within a few years, the limestone ran out. And when that happened, Jennie found herself with a huge three acre pit for a backyard. It was tall sheer walls of rock and this big ugly pit with debris all in it from all the tools that were used to pull out the limestone. It was really an eyesore, and Jennie hated it. AUDREY: Then she had an idea. She was going to try to hide it. So she planted Lombardy poplars, Persian plums, and white poplars to grow tall behind the house, on the back part of her yard, to try to hide this huge monstrosity. AUDREY: In the meantime, the garden right around her house was really beautiful. In fact, sometimes her husband would send workers over to move things around for her and help with her gardening, because it had become such a massive passion project. She had gotten better and better at it. By this point they had lived in their home, I think it was five or six years, before the limestone ran out. So she has had this garden going for several years and, like I said, she has gotten really good at it. And she looks out at this big pit in her backyard, at the temporary fix she tried to plant, and she thinks it is not cutting it. The Sunken Garden AUDREY: And so then she thinks, I will create a sunken garden. I will make it beautiful. I will use all the knowledge and expertise and extra money that we have now to find beautiful plants and make this into a gorgeous sunken garden. Now, I don't know that she actually thought much beyond the task at hand. Maybe she had in the back of her mind that someday people would come and see the sunken garden. I don't know for sure. But just know that this dawned on her and became an incredibly fun project where she could really express her talents and could beautify her home and her yard. AUDREY: So she took massive amounts of topsoil and brought it in by horse drawn cart. She had the rubble on the floor of the pit pushed up against the walls of the pit. She put these tall mounds on each side, and then she used those mounds of rubble to plant terraced flower beds. She wanted to beautify the walls of this pit, so she used a bosun's chair. She hung from this bosun's chair on the side of these cliffs, and then she would plant in every crack and crevice that she found. She would plant ivy and other beautiful things to cover the ugliness of the sheer walls around the sides of the pit. AUDREY: Once they had the rubble out of the way, and she had made some of the flower beds and brought in topsoil, it was a matter of deciding where to begin. She decided to start with a Japanese garden. She was able to work with an expert on Japanese landscaping for a little bit of time, who helped her get the details right. This was more than just an opportunity to develop her gifts. It was an exciting passion project. AUDREY: As the gardens grew, more and more people wanted to see them. Not only did she welcome them to the garden, she always offered them a cup of tea. In fact, she often welcomed them to see the gardens and showed them around herself. Sometimes they didn't even recognize her or know that she was the gardener. They thought she was just a worker. She loved serving her community through her gifts in this way. So when they came, she would hand them this cup of tea and show them around. AUDREY: Now, I don't know how many people she hired to come in and help over the years, but eventually there was an Italian garden and other themed gardens. The garden grew, the interest grew, and in the year 1915 alone it was reported that more than 18,000 visitors came. She and her husband named the estate Benvenuto, which in Italian means welcome. Over time, she and her husband traveled and brought back plants and fountains and sculptures from all over the world. She worked tirelessly for twelve years, and she finally pronounced the sunken garden done. A Legacy That Outlived Her AUDREY: The visitors increased and increased and increased. By 1930 she was named Victoria's best citizen for her work in her sunken garden, and its tremendous beauty, and also because there were visitors coming from all over now who brought interest and revenue into the town. AUDREY: When World War II hit, there was a loss of manpower, and it was hard to keep the gardens going and to keep them as beautiful as they once were. In the meantime, Jennie's health declined, and her daughter started trying to keep up with the garden. When they couldn't do it anymore, they gave it to their children, and their grandson brought it back to its original state and then started to beautify it and grow it even more. It has since grown immeasurably from that first garden and Japanese garden to five themed gardens and fifty-five acres, and now it is 122 years old and famous around the world. It is still in the family. A grandson, a great-granddaughter, something like that. They manage it now. I can't remember all the details of how the succession went, but they keep adding to it. They have added other themed areas. There is a children's garden and other gardens. There is a stage where they do performances. They have a lot more walking paths, and they do fireworks shows. So they have really made this an incredible experience for the people who come. AUDREY: It has also been named a National Historic Site in Canada. They employ at least fifty full-time gardeners who oversee everything. In fact, one of the people who visited said something remarkable about it. They were talking to the gardeners, and one of them said something like, we are experts at plucking dead flowers and leaves. There are not any yellow leaves. They are not allowed to stay. It just stays meticulous all the time for anybody who might come and visit. AUDREY: Now, 122 years later from the time that Jennie first set foot on this property, she has built a legacy that has outlived her, that will continue to go on and be a place of beauty and interest and bless the lives of the people who visit. Millions of visitors a year. Why This Story Matters AUDREY: When I first heard this story, I was determined to find out more about it. There is not a lot of information on the history of it. It is really hard to find, and I scoured online. I have not been to the Butchart Gardens. I have seen pictures online and it is absolutely breathtaking. But of course I wanted to know more, because being the founder of The Mission Driven Mom myself, this story is one that I wanted to look more deeply into. Because it is a story of a mother focusing on her strengths, developing a talent, and serving her community in a way that has become a massive worldwide attraction. AUDREY: And what is so key in this story is how small it began. It began with just one woman who was confident as an artist. She had the opportunity to study in Paris, but she chose a family instead. She even put her artistic abilities behind her for a while, and then she brought them out into the world around her. She understood that choosing motherhood doesn't mean suppressing your talents. She wasn't going to sit on her strengths. She chose to do gardening as her artistic expression. And then she worked little by little. And her children, she brought them along with her. They did this together. It bonded their family. It beautified their home. As her knowledge and interest grew, her confidence grew. And people around her saw what she was doing, and they affirmed it, and they helped her. They got plants from around the world and they fed and nurtured this desire. And it grew and grew. AUDREY: Stories like these, where the mother nurtures herself and nurtures her family and nurtures her community, are such a blessing in the world. But it didn't start out that way. It started with one small and simple idea, a mindset. It started with how Jennie saw herself, and how she saw her talents, and how she wanted to bring her family on the journey with her. She thought, this is my passion. I can't be an artist in Paris, but I can do artwork around my home and bring my children with me. Something like that. She set the example. She paved the way. She showed her family that you can express your gifts and talents while still putting motherhood first and blessing your community. AUDREY: So I want to share some quotes that combine these ideas of gardening and mindset and how we view ourselves, to highlight how Jennie was making her pursuits and her potential become a force for good. The Garden of the Mind AUDREY: James Allen taught: A woman's mind may be likened to a garden, which may be intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild. Whether cultivated or neglected, it must, and will, bring forth. If no useful seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless weed seeds will fall therein, and will continue to produce their kind. Just as a gardener cultivates his plot, keeping it free from weeds, and growing the flowers and fruits which he requires, so may a woman tend the garden of her mind, weeding out all the wrong, useless, and impure thoughts, and cultivating toward perfection the flowers and fruits of right, useful, and pure thoughts. By pursuing this process, a woman sooner or later discovers that she is the master gardener of her soul, the director of her life. She also reveals within herself the laws of thought, and understands with ever increasing accuracy how the thought forces and mind elements operate in the shaping of her character, circumstances, and destiny. AUDREY: Jennie Butchart did just that. She conceived a worthwhile project and she acted on it. And then she had a little bit bigger idea, and acted on that. And then she had a little bit bigger idea, and then she acted on that. And it grew and grew and grew. It was an amazing blessing, but she started small, with one idea that she could develop and nurture herself while still nurturing her family. Focus on Your Strengths AUDREY: You might be wondering, if it is really that simple, if we just need to plant the seed and nurture it in our minds and in our lives, why do so many women and mothers still struggle so much? It reminds me of a podcast I did a few years ago called Kickstart Your Self-Discovery. In that podcast I talked about the important component in motherhood of focusing on our strengths. AUDREY: I have seen a lot of well-meaning, God-fearing, good-to-the-core women who are constantly belittling themselves, to themselves and in front of their own children. They say that they aren't talented. They put their needs last. And they set a poor example for their children about what womanhood is, about what motherhood is, and about how they ought to treat themselves. And unfortunately, children sometimes see and follow this example. That is why it is vital that we switch that paradigm. AUDREY: And that is exactly the example that Jennie Butchart sets for us. She didn't belittle herself, her real needs, her gifts, her strengths, or her abilities. She didn't tell her children she wasn't gifted and didn't have anything to offer. She leaned into her strengths and she developed her talents while creating something beautiful that lifted and inspired people. She had plenty of weaknesses, and they definitely cropped up. But it was precisely because she was focused on her creation that she continued to have the motivation to move through those weaknesses and keep creating. She was a mother of creation. Becoming an Intentional Creator AUDREY: Earl Nightingale echoed these same truths about the importance of becoming an intentional creator who blesses the world with our gifts. He said: Now it stands to reason that a person who is thinking about a concrete and worthwhile goal is going to reach it, because that is what she is thinking about. And we become what we think about. Conversely, the woman who has no goal, who doesn't know where she is going, and whose thoughts must therefore be of confusion and anxiety and fear and worry, becomes what she is thinking about. Her life becomes one of frustration, fear, anxiety, and worry. And if she thinks about nothing, she becomes nothing. AUDREY: So we must become creators in our homes. We don't have to know the whole picture, but we have to have some kind of goal. We have to have something that we are working toward, so that our children can see us building on our strengths and working toward something meaningful. And they have the desire to do that for themselves as well, as they watch our examples. AUDREY: Earl Nightingale also said: All you have got to do is plant that seed of your creation in your mind. Care for it. Work steadily toward your goal, and it will become a reality. And not only will it, there is no way that it cannot. You see, that is a law, like the laws of Sir Isaac Newton, the laws of gravity. If you get on top of a building and jump off, you will always go down. You will never go up. And it is the same with all the other laws of nature. They always work. They are inflexible. AUDREY: So our principles for today are to focus on our strengths and become intentional creators in our family's lives. The Education of the Mother AUDREY: This started with me when my children were young, just like Jennie Butchart. I worked hard in high school. I had gotten really good grades. I had gotten the ACT score, gone to the university, and spent three years there. But I felt cheated. I just did not feel like my mind and soul had been nurtured. I had not learned anything deeply, and I had not developed as a person and a woman because of my university experience. I felt cheated and I felt lost, and I didn't understand myself any better. I didn't understand marriage or parenting or finances any better. And I definitely did not understand this world any better. And there I was, trying to navigate all of those things and raise three children. I had no idea what I needed. I just knew that I wanted to grow somehow and I wanted to be more than I was. AUDREY: When I prayed about this consistently, I was led to an opportunity to read the classics and be nurtured in them. This was going to cost my young family some time and attention and some money that I knew we didn't have. And even though these were accredited classes, they were just for my own personal development. It felt like a place where I could dig deep and grow as a person. A place where I could learn important ideas and talk to others about the things that matter most. A place where I could be nurtured as a whole person: my mind, my heart, my soul. A place where I could pursue truth and truly be changed. AUDREY: My husband and I struggled over this decision for quite a while, until one day I ran across this quote: that the best investment a family can make is in the education of the mother. This opened everything up for me. I felt like it was an answer from God. And I had emotional permission from that point on to work on myself in deep, meaningful ways, because who I become matters immensely. In a sense, it is everything. For me, for myself, for my family, for my community around me. AUDREY: And so I opened up. I acquainted myself with those things that matter most. I brought them home to my family. And as I pursued truth and infused it into my home, not only was I forever changed, but so was my family. In fact, recently in a podcast I did with my husband, I asked him what this had meant for our family. And he said, I think we still have a family because of it. AUDREY: We have not regretted that decision for one day. It laid such a powerful foundation for our lives. When I dove in and worked on me, when I learned my strengths and began to build them, when I let my strengths lead, our lives became so much richer and more beautiful. And that path has led me here and will continue to lead me forward. I became a mother of creation. Jennie was a mother of creation. And so can you be too. Closing Invitation AUDREY: Ponder the life of Jennie Butchart and the example she sets for us, in making a little time and taking a little money for mom to build on her strengths, for mom to meet her own creative needs. And it doesn't have to interfere with your mothering. In fact, it can elevate your mothering. It can make your family better. Bring them on the path with you. AUDREY: And if you aren't sure where to start, just ask yourself the question: what is something I would really love to do or know about? And start learning about it. Take the little art class. AUDREY: If you want more clarity and direction on how to be a mother of creation, join us at our Mothers of Creation event this fall, September 26th in Utah. We will begin the day right where you are, and you will leave that afternoon with much more clarity about how to stay out of your own negative stories and focus on what you are creating and who you are becoming instead. AUDREY: Whatever it might be, if it is gardening or running a marathon or taking the time to set an example for your children, to build a legacy of being creative, of meeting your own creative needs, of giving yourself and your children permission to build something that will outlive you, to build something that will make you and your family and your community a little bit better, then please start there and do it. What is it that you love? What is it that you want to create? Do more of that. Become more of the mother of creation that you were divinely designed to be, and future generations will thank you. AUDREY: Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope to see all of you at our event in Utah, and I will for sure see you next time.
EP 169 The dreams you're carrying are the most noble part of you
Years ago, when I was just beginning my classical education, I sat in a seminar where the presenters kept telling us to use our scholar skills. So I finally raised my hand and asked where I could find these scholar skills. The presenters, including the founder of my college, gave me a blank stare. Nobody had an answer for me. I could have just brushed this problem aside. But I cared about being the best student I could be! I was making a lot of sacrifices in time, effort, and money to be in those classes, and I had a vision of what this education would do for my family. So I went and found the answers myself. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - Saturday, September 26th The 8th Habit: From Effectiveness to Greatness by Stephen R. Covey. The source of the four parts model and every Covey quote in this episode The Mission Driven Life by Audrey Rindlisbacher AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 169: Vision Mothers of Creation Invitation AUDREY: Mom, this fall I'm going to be back in the gorgeous library ballroom in Provo, Utah, spending one transformative day with women just like you, connecting, growing, and learning how to be the creators God divinely designed us to be. If you want an opportunity to spend one powerful day with some of the most incredible women around who will inspire and uplift you, and if you want to be guided through a process that will give you the tools and principles to turn your persistent problems into new vision and forward momentum, then I invite you to join us Saturday, September 26th in Utah. Me and my team of mentors have literally been preparing for an entire year, and I want you there. And I can promise you that your life will never be the same. You will walk out of that room, just as hundreds of other women have, with new hope not only for yourself and your family, but for the future of our culture and nation. Because there really are moms out there just like you who want to overcome their challenges and make a positive difference. Tickets are selling fast. Check out the link around this video or go to themissiondrivenmom.com to grab your seat while there are still some available. And I will see you there. Introduction AUDREY: The dreams you carry and nourish in your heart are the most noble part of you. When you don't have a vision, those dreams cannot be a reality. So what is vision? How can we develop it? And how is our perspective here at The Mission Driven Mom different than what you might hear at other places? That's what I'm going to talk to you about for a few minutes today. What Vision Is AUDREY: Beyond just the ability to see with our eyes, vision means the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination, wisdom, and intelligence. In The 8th Habit, Stephen Covey warned: "Vision is seeing with the mind's eye what is possible in people, in projects, in causes, and in enterprises. When people have no vision, when they neglect the development of the mind's capacity to create, they fall prey to the human tendency toward victimism." AUDREY: We've talked a lot about victimism, or our victim mindset, or acting like a victim, on this podcast over the last couple of months. We've explored how this pulls us into drama and steals our power and keeps us stuck. We've even spent a bit of time talking about the victim types and which ones we show up as, and we've gone on and on about how we need to be creators instead. Well, just like many others who have taught about creativity and vision, Covey also affirms that vision is the antidote to drama and the victim mindset. AUDREY: And of course, at our Mothers of Creation event this fall, we'll be spending one transformational day going through all the steps necessary to move from victimism and drama to creation and vision. I hope you plan to be there. But for today, I want to spend a few minutes diving a little deeper into the vision component of this journey. AUDREY: I want to start with a model Covey shares in his book The 8th Habit about how the four key areas of our lives work together and help us to create and cast vision, striving toward what matters most and becoming more than we were. Here's how this model works. There are four aspects to our whole being: the body, the mind, the heart, and the spirit. And each area has a need, an attribute, and what Covey calls a voice, or the expression of this part of us in the world. I'll explain them one by one. The Body: The Need to Live AUDREY: First, the physical body. Our physical body has a need to live. The voice or expression of this need to live is to take action, and it is through our body that we do the things that need to be done. The attribute that enables the body to thrive and to do the things it needs to do is discipline. With little discipline, we accomplish little, and sometimes even put our own health or lives at risk. With great discipline, we can accomplish great things. Covey said about discipline: "Discipline is willpower embodied. Only the disciplined are truly free. The undisciplined are slaves to moods, appetites, and passions." AUDREY: Horace Mann once said: "In vain do they talk of happiness who never subdued an impulse in obedience to a principle." The Heart: The Need to Love AUDREY: The second aspect is your heart. Your heart has a need to love. The expression of that need to love, when properly understood, is taking actions of love toward ourselves and others by meeting real needs. I don't have time to get into this today. We talk about it a lot in the MDM Academy. If you want to understand it a little better, you can go to our website and sign up for my on-demand training. AUDREY: That being said, in order for our hearts to love, it needs the attribute of passion. Covey said about passion: "Passion comes from the heart and is manifested as optimism, excitement, emotional connection, and determination. It fires unrelenting drive." AUDREY: Courage is the essence of passion. So taking action and doing what needs to be done to love properly, regardless of fears, obstacles, objections, or risks. The Spirit: The Need to Leave a Legacy AUDREY: Three, your spirit, which has the need to leave a legacy, and the expression of this need is conscience, working to guide the spirit in the right direction. The attribute that makes this possible is what Covey calls educating the conscience. Again, we don't have time to get into it today, but we all have what he calls a social and a divine conscience. It is the divine conscience within that must be nurtured by truth and goodness so that it can guide us to goals worthy of us. Immanuel Kant said: "I am constantly amazed by two things: the starry heavens above and the moral law within." AUDREY: If you've spent much time around us at The Mission Driven Mom, you know we work to champion the natural moral law and its governing principles. We strive to inspire women to listen to that still, small voice that wants to guide our actions toward what is good, true, and beautiful. The Mind: The Need to Learn AUDREY: Number four, our minds. Our minds have the need to learn. The voice or expression of all we learn and know and are is our talents. And vision is the attribute of the mind that takes the action of the physical body, the passions of the heart, and the conscience of the spirit, and brings them together in an aspiration bigger than all of those parts, bigger than we are, and puts all the parts of us to work toward a future worth creating. Aristotle taught: "When talents and needs of the world cross, therein lies your vocation." How the Four Work Together AUDREY: So to recap what Stephen Covey just taught us: vision is the spiritual creation. This is where it all begins. And discipline is the physical creation, making the decisions and doing the tasks to realize the vision. Passion is the fuel. A constant [image of the] vision generates passion to keep going. And conscience is the guide along the way as we're making decisions. You listen closely as your conscience guides you to an end that blesses everyone, a true win-win. Covey said: "When conscience governs vision, discipline, and passion, leadership endures and changes the world for good." AUDREY: In other words, moral authority makes formal authority work. [As moms,] we need to be the leaders and visionaries of our lives and our families. By virtue of being mom, we have some formal authority, but Covey teaches that formal authority doesn't work without the moral authority underneath it. And that moral authority comes from working intentionally with all four parts of your nature and submitting them all to a vision worthy of you and your family. Where We Differ From Other Voices AUDREY: This is where we at The Mission Driven Mom deviate from other voices you might have heard discussing vision. We don't say follow your heart and live your truth. We don't believe that you can do anything you want to do or be anything you might want to be. Those ways of thinking and believing are unhelpful and unhealthy. We do believe you can become the very best version of yourself. We do believe you are different than others for important reasons. We do believe that you are uniquely designed and called to a work that will bless you and others. And we do believe that recognition and adherence to truth makes all of this possible. Imagination and the Vision of Great Leaders AUDREY: Now, going back to vision: it is the spiritual creation. This is why, as Einstein said, imagination is more important than knowledge. Great ideas, great beauty, great art, nature, sacrifice, service, great deeds, courage, and virtue. All of these fuel the imagination. Great leaders have vision. They hold an image of the future they are creating in their minds, and they share it with others. "I have a dream" [cemented] a nation in turmoil. Your mind needs vision, and vision is fueled by ideas and imagination. That's why ongoing lifelong learning from the greatest minds that have ever lived elevates our minds, and it nurtures the kinds of visions we can have. AUDREY: How can you make headway in leading yourself unless you can clearly articulate to yourself where you're going to go? How can we become a certain kind of person unless we know who that person is? Think of all the teenagers seeking self-knowledge and self-acceptance who have no vision for who they are becoming, and therefore take their view from those around them, listening to the social rather than the divine conscience. Now, how can you successfully lead your family unless you cast a vision for them of who they can be together? How can you lead in your community, church, school, or anywhere else unless there is a spiritual, intangible, worthy ideal for people to strive to realize? AUDREY: And in [source unclear] we read this: "A visionary is supposed to have a vision of the future. Ideas govern the world. The power they have is phenomenal. It is therefore necessary to repeatedly fill our minds with thoughts of service, abundance, and success to break free of the gravitational pull of our negative thoughts. Eventually we replace the old negative thoughts with a new positive self-image. Each new thought has energy, and through some mysterious law of attraction it draws objects, beings, and circumstances of a similar nature to it like a magnet. Negative thoughts attract negative experiences, whereas positive thoughts attract positive experiences." AUDREY: Which we say here comes from God. Envisioning: Creating It Spiritually First AUDREY: Now, envisioning is holding the vision, using your imagination to see it before it happens, to work out the details beforehand so you always have that clarity with which you make decisions and course correct along the way. This is the only way you can bring something into the material, physical world. You must create it spiritually first, just like you would draw a floor plan of a home before you built it. AUDREY: You moms know all about this. You had a vision of motherhood. You make decisions about when and where to become pregnant and have a child. You held a vision of that child and prepared diligently for their arrival, and you loved them even before you knew them. That's what creating is about. It's about love. We love something enough to bring it into being. And how do we actually do that? We do the mental work of clarifying the vision and holding it in our minds until it is worked out in reality. The Scholar Skills Story AUDREY: I've told this story probably more than once on this podcast. When I was just beginning my classical education, I attended a small seminar my school was holding. It was there that I was continually encouraged to use scholar skills to get through my studies more successfully. When I finally raised my hand and asked where I could find scholar skills so I could implement them, the presenters, including the founder of my college, gave me a blank stare and had no answers for me. AUDREY: I could have just brushed this problem aside, but I cared about being the best student I could be. I wanted to see truth. I was making a lot of sacrifices in time, effort, and money to be taking these classes, and the quality of my education really mattered to me. I needed to do it right. I had a vision of what this education would do for me and my family, and that meant I needed to do the work to figure out how to make the most of it. AUDREY: So I researched, I read books, I talked to other students, and over time these scholar skills, these tools for lifelong learning, began to emerge, and I got more and more and more out of the time I spent studying. Eventually I felt like I had good enough information that I wanted to share it with other students who could benefit from it. Now I had a vision of what these principles could do for others. In order to make this a reality, I had to do something I had never even considered doing before. I had to create a class. I did this and asked the school if they'd offer it. They said they'd see if it was of any interest to the student body. It turned out to be hugely popular, and then I was traveling to several states teaching the course I created. Vision in Community, Family, and Marriage AUDREY: Later I attended another seminar, and I wanted the people there to be able to connect because the seminar was over. I knew that what I could do was offer my home for book discussions. At the first meeting in my home, I cast a vision of what I learned and what I wanted from this experience. The book club grew and grew, and over the next year I learned more and more about what we needed to do next. I spent the next summer [organizing, planning meetings,] and cast a vision for our community. AUDREY: With our family, we did the work to create a family statement. We repeated to our children over and over again that there is truth and it can make them free, that family matters most, and that they would always be there for each other. And the more clear our vision was of the kind of family we wanted to have, the more we could clearly communicate it and create it. And when it looked like things were not working, or were not going in the direction we wanted them to go, we held our vision before us and took actions to help them realize it. AUDREY: In my marriage, I repeatedly shared with my husband the kind of [unclear] I wanted to have with him, and that he would [unclear] to hold a shared vision of where we're trying to go, and discuss openly and honestly all the healing and work we needed to do to get us there. AUDREY: Of course, I've tried to repeatedly create and hold a vision of myself before myself, asking myself questions like: Who do I want to be? What is future Audrey like? How can I pave her way? How can I make her life better? How can I make decisions today that will set her up for success? AUDREY: Vision works everywhere, and envisioning is the tool by which you hold it in your mind and you live it with intention. This is mental work. It's meeting your real mental needs. It's what we overlook so often, but it's the only way to build a life of love. The Two Visions AUDREY: [Unclear,] we must hold two visions. What is it that we are creating? But also, who are we going to be on the way to creating that vision, and who will we become when that vision is realized? Covey said: "The most important vision of all is to develop a sense of self, a sense of your own destiny, a sense of your unique mission and role in life, a sense of purpose and meaning." AUDREY: Here at The Mission Driven Mom, we believe that too. It's in our name. It's the title of my book. It's deeply ingrained in everything we do. It is our earnest hope for you that you will do the work to seek out and fulfill the unique contributions only you can make, using your discipline, talents, conscience, and vision. Because when you don't do that, we all miss out. Closing AUDREY: Thank you for joining me today for a deeper dive into victim mindset, drama, creation, vision, and exactly how you can build a vision worthy of your precious time and life energy. Please join us at the Mothers of Creation event this fall in Provo, Utah for one transformational day. I'm excited to [see you there].
Episode 168: Donna Zajonc on Victim, Creator, and Who You Want to Be
I'm a recovering rescuer. For me this shows up as me doing things for others that they should really be doing for themselves (often my kids). I also sometimes jump in and try to fix a problem that isn't mine, or do something I was never asked to do—like call the doctor or plan the party or give dating advice. Of course, I'd tell myself I just "wanted to help." But honestly, that probably wasn't my true motivation. I probably thought something was broken that I needed to fix. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th The Center for the Empowerment Dynamic - Donna's Friday newsletter and essays, published weekly for over twelve years Coaching with the Empowerment Dynamic - Donna's coaching program, the one Audrey went through Who Do You Want to Be on the Way to What You Want? by Donna Zajonc The Power of TED* by David Emerald, a core text in MDM Academy Level One Episode 164 with David Emerald AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 168: Donna Zajonc on Victim, Creator, and Who You Want to Be Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Today I have a special guest, Donna Zajonc. Her credentials are master certified coach, author, and co-founder of the Center for the Empowerment Dynamic. If you saw our David Emerald interview, that is her association here. She helped co-found that organization with David. They worked intimately together for many years until he passed away. And I had the privilege of being one of Donna’s students years ago when I took her coaching program. It gave me lots of tools, some of which we’ll talk about today. Thank you again, Donna, for being here. I’m really looking forward to this. AUDREY: I want to give you a little bit of her credentials, because she’s done some really amazing things in her life and I want all of you to know how incredible she is. She is currently the director of coaching for the Power of TED, the Empowerment Dynamic organization. She is a very gifted teacher and coach, and her coaching program is so worth signing up for. She received the Washington State Excellence in Coaching Award in 2017. She served three terms in the Oregon legislature, and she also owned a multi-store food retail company in Oregon. Then in 2001 she really embraced her passion for coaching. Donna, you’ve been coaching pretty much full time since then? DONNA: Yeah, 25 years now. AUDREY: That’s amazing. And The Power of TED, one of the core books in our Mission Driven Mom Academy, level one, has sold over a quarter of a million copies. DONNA: I’m so glad to hear that. It’s so needed. AUDREY: And then her own book, which I own here and have all marked up, is Who Do You Want to Be on the Way to What You Want? Coaching with the Empowerment Dynamic. It was published a few years ago. I love it. Donna’s Path: Nursing, Public Service, and Coaching AUDREY: There are so many places we could start. I think we know a little bit about you professionally. I’d love to start out with a little bit more about you personally, so our audience can feel like they know you as a woman. Tell us a little bit about yourself. DONNA: Well, there are quite a few different segments to my life, as you alluded to. My early years of being drawn to public service through politics and being in the legislature. And being a mom. DONNA: I was in southern Missouri and went to the University of Missouri, joined VISTA, and married right out of college. We went to Oregon to work with the Klamath Indians, where I was the health coordinator. That was in the early to mid seventies. It was through that experience that I got really interested in public policy and health care policy, and I spent some time in the legislature. I stayed in Oregon, stayed in the Northwest, even though my home base, my brother and sister and family, were sixth generation in small towns in Missouri. But I’ve been a Northwesterner: Portland, Seattle. I live on Bainbridge Island, which is a gorgeous island right off of downtown Seattle. DONNA: That’s the résumé of person, place, and time. We can certainly get into when I met David in 2003, when we started immediately talking about the empowerment dynamic. We named that and had no idea it would become our life’s work and our business. AUDREY: You said professional coaching since 2001, so you were already doing that when you met David. DONNA: That’s correct. I was moving into coaching leaders, especially public leaders, because that had been a big part of many of the years earlier in my life, a real dedication to the nobility of public service. That is not how much of our public leadership is seen today, and I get really sad about that. But that’s exactly what I was doing in 2001 and 2002. We met in 2003 and were immediately drawn to our way of thinking and our desire to create a world that works for all: our desire to serve, to help people be their best, and to create systems where families, companies, and nations can really thrive. AUDREY: Absolutely. So what led you to coaching in the first place? Why were you already in that realm when you met David? DONNA: That’s a great question. My undergraduate degree is in nursing, and I went into public health nursing right out of college, working with the Klamath Indians and then in two different community mental health clinics in Oregon for many years. So I already had a very keen interest in human development and psychology. That’s when I heard about and discovered this idea of coaching, which in 2000 and 2001 was brand new. DONNA: There was a friend here on Bainbridge Island who really guided me into asking, is this a good fit for you? And it felt so good. My psychiatric mental health nursing was more about healing, about addressing wounds and issues. Coaching is all about forward looking, forward thinking. That forward thinking, being at our best, being emotionally sound and secure in our values, being able to take responsibility, all of that really attracted me. So I looked into the coaching school here in Seattle. It was a perfect fit, and I never looked back. AUDREY: They actually had a school established by then? DONNA: They did. There were a handful of really incredible coaching programs in the year 2000, and one of the founders of the International Coach Federation created a school here. I felt that was a bit of guidance, because it was so easy for me to be able to attend school right in Seattle. How the Empowerment Dynamic Was Born AUDREY: That’s wonderful. So tell us a little bit more about how this connection with David organically started to grow into shared work for the two of you. DONNA: What a beautiful question. We met in a business setting, but we very quickly realized that there was a strong love and affinity between us. Over those couple of years after meeting, he shared with me epiphanies he was having about a time in his life where he felt very much like a victim. He found out he couldn’t have children of his own, that he was biologically infertile. His dad, who he was very close to, died suddenly. And his first marriage disintegrated, for lots of reasons, but I think in part because he couldn’t have children and she very much wanted children. DONNA: So he started telling me about his epiphanies around this victim consciousness, and about some guidance he had had to ask, well, what’s the opposite of victim? Out of that meditative reflection, he had a sense. He says, I didn’t hear words, I didn’t hear a voice, but the opposite of being a victim and having life happen to us is to be a creator. So learn to create and take responsibility for our lives. AUDREY: And on first blush that seems like a really simple idea. It is so profound. DONNA: It comes with an extremely profound idea about how we meet the world, how we meet challenges, how we meet ourselves and our family, moving out of “life happens to me and I’m powerless,” which is a quick summary of victim consciousness. And we are all victims at times, to accidents, to health issues. People really do abuse us. What we’re talking about is not victimization. AUDREY: That’s right. Definitely. DONNA: We’re talking about victimhood as an identity, that we see ourselves as not having a choice, that life happens to us. That description alone can really stop people. AUDREY: Yes. There’s a big difference. DONNA: So that became our conversations. We both knew about the drama triangle, me from my days in mental health, and David knew about it through being in therapy regarding the loss of his marriage and not being able to have children. AUDREY: And that’s the main shift, isn’t it? Victim is the heart of that drama triangle. DONNA: Dr. Karpman said that when we’re feeling like a victim, there’s always a persecutor. There’s always a problem that’s caused us to feel like we’re a victim. And the third role Dr. Karpman said is that when those two roles enter, there’s always a third one, the hero, the rescuer. So that’s a very dynamic description of the three primary ways we human beings respond to things we don’t like and don’t want. DONNA: David’s epiphany, as you know, was, oh my gosh, there’s got to be a positive alternative to that. We firmly believe in the goodness of who we are as human beings. So what is the new triangle that rests upon that goodness, that ability to choose, that ability to create, that ability to be loved? That’s what he started sharing with me on walks. And I said, David, this is really original work. We need to write this down. DONNA: That’s what we did for about a year and a half. And we named the new triangle. I was writing a book about my time in coaching, and my editor heard about David’s new triangle and that we had just named it the empowerment dynamic. So now we’ve got the drama triangle on one hand and the empowerment dynamic on the other. She said, okay, David, now you have named it TED. The name of your book is going to be The Power of TED. And now you need to write a story. DONNA: David was shocked. He said, I don’t know how to write a story about some guy named Ted. But that’s what he did. We hired my editor to help him do that. And so there you go, Audrey. That’s how it was birthed. We just kept following our guidance and our epiphanies and our sense of how much value it had for us to stop and say, wait a minute, where am I on these two triangles? Being a victim, persecutor, rescuer, stuck and just going around and around. Or do I really believe in the divinity of my creator essence? Not the Creator, but a creator. Do I really believe in my ability to challenge and see the truth of who I am and to keep moving toward what I care about? And then how do I do that? How do I coach rather than be the rescuer pleaser that’s always fixing everybody else? How Audrey Came to This Work AUDREY: I was thinking while you were talking about my own experience with drama. I found out a long time ago that one thing I’m really good at is creating curriculum. Twenty years ago I was at a college, I saw the need for a course, I asked if I could create one, they said go ahead and try, and it turned out to be a popular course. That’s just how I think. Whenever I can see that there’s a problem in the world, my answer is usually, well, let me tell you what to read, let me build a course for you that will help you learn and change and grow. AUDREY: Years ago I had an interaction in a women’s class. A handful of roses were handed out at random, and the women were asked to come to the front, say something good about themselves, and put the rose in a vase. I knew many of the women in the audience, and I watched them one by one come to the front and say something self-deprecating. Nobody else in the world remembers this event but me, because it was just what I needed to see and recognize at that moment in my life. I carried it with me for weeks. I thought on it, I prayed on it, and I pondered: what is happening that these women either don’t know how incredible they are or don’t have the confidence to say it? What is wrong? AUDREY: So I decided I was going to do something about it. For about a year I went back through all the things that have helped me most and vetted them down with the help of a couple of women, and we launched level one of the Mission Driven Mom, which is all about loving God and yourself more fully. AUDREY: I can’t remember if I had found the drama triangle before that or if we found it through my husband’s marriage and family therapy degree. But I knew about this drama triangle, and we had had so many conversations about it. Just that aspect had been helpful in our marriage, helpful in our parenting, helpful in our lives. When it came time for me to try to understand it better, I wanted to teach it, because I felt like it would be helpful. And there’s just nothing out there. Karpman never wrote a book. He never elaborated on it hardly at all. There’s basically the original thesis. Other people have written some books, and I have maybe half a dozen. Some of them had helpful things to say in delineating the drama portion, and you could look at what it was and then think about the opposite, and that could be helpful. AUDREY: But it wasn’t until I found The Power of TED that I said, oh, this is the antidote. This is the solution. This is what I was looking for that’s going to help these women. There are three concepts we cover in the academy: self-care, self-leadership, and self-discovery, all to help them know themselves, accept themselves, and love themselves more fully. In the self-leadership section, this is what we talk about. I teach them all about drama. They buy their own copy of The Power of TED and go through it. There are other concepts around that, shame and blame and other elements that we found helpful to understanding the whole aspect of it. And I know some of the women who have come through the Mission Driven Mom have turned around and gone to your coaching program to dive deeper into it. AUDREY: What happened for me was that I learned it, I was teaching it, women were having incredible experiences with it. And then a few years ago I saw on your email list that there was a coaching program, and I thought, maybe this will help me teach it better, maybe I can understand it better. That was a very rich experience. Just the idea of reframing that you teach was insanely helpful, and I’ve added to and elaborated on that some in the way that we teach it. We have our event this fall and we’ll dig deeper into some of these things. One of our mentors, Lindsey, was very excited about victim types. There are a lot of people out there with victim types, but she decided to work on her own list, and she’s attached Disney characters to them. That’s been a fascinating journey. AUDREY: So that’s how I came to it. What I can attest to is over 600 women who have come through our program. There are a handful of core ideas from level one that they usually call out, and this is one of the ones they usually say is a huge paradigm shift for them, and just so helpful to their personal progress. It’s like one of my favorite quotes. I say it all the time. It’s very simple, and I’m sure you heard David say it all the time: you cannot not create. DONNA: Yes. We had a blog about that just a few weeks ago. AUDREY: When you really deeply know that, then you know it’s kind of like, yes, there is drama and the opposite of that is creator, and yes, there’s this empowerment dynamic. But it is also true that there’s a sense in which even in drama we’re creating, because we can’t not create. We’re just creating more of what we don’t want, more of what we don’t like. We’re so focused on those fears that they manifest more and more in our daily lives. Naming Our Reactive Patterns DONNA: Well, thank you for that history. You’re really mirroring much of what encouraged David to keep digging. Because the drama triangle work, people said, oh, it’s so helpful to name my reacting patterns. But then what do I do? And the response in therapy and in the few articles and writings was, well, just don’t do it. It’s very toxic. You’ll just get stuck racing around those archetypal roles. It was that awareness, just like you had, that he couldn’t find anything that pointed to the good part of us, the goodness of us, the self of who we are as human beings, as divine human beings. AUDREY: It sounds like you and David had such similar thinking and tracking. DONNA: We wanted to be teachers and healers of how to bring the work alive. There are so many nuances in the triangles and how they point to what we focus on. More and more, what I do with the coaching is this: okay, now I know some reactive patterns, and now I can see them. You name it. Naming is so helpful. And it can really be upsetting at first. Oh, I’m so stuck. AUDREY: It seems like it’s the malaise of the human experience, because our brains are threat-seeking mechanisms. Our brains help keep us safe by scanning the horizon, looking for problems, threats, danger. If we’re not careful, that can be our primary neurological and thinking pattern of how we go through life. Which is great, because our ancestors survived because they did worry about threats. DONNA: They worried about the tiger or the snake or whatever the physical threat was. But where we are in this world now is that our bodies were not made for the speed of life. The way threats come at us now at such a rapid pace, whether we want them or not, whether we’ve actually put the phone down, whether we’ve stopped watching the news, so much of what is now being talked about are social threats. The speed of life is forcing us, if we’re open to the stress, to look at ways we can create habits to transmute and transform and get out of this reacting pattern. It requires skills. It requires practices. DONNA: And that’s what we focus on at the Center for the Empowerment Dynamic, because the default way of going through life is to be problem focused, danger focused. That’s what keeps us alive. But that pattern of our brain does not support living in this fast-paced world where we want to be our best selves, our best moms, our best spouses. DONNA: I love that you have one right there: we cannot not create. One of your go-to slogans. So what does that do? That helps us realize, ah, now it’s my responsibility to choose what I’m going to broadcast out into the world. And that responsibility is the core behavior change from victim to creator. I start taking responsibility. Everyone Is Vying for the Victim Role AUDREY: I’ve read several books, so I can’t always remember exactly who taught me this particular aspect. But one of the things that has been very helpful in understanding the drama and the shift is that one of the other books I have on drama talks about the game of drama. They explain that even though there are three players, actually everybody wants the victim role. It’s a game where everyone is vying to prove that they’re the victim. And the reason they’re playing that game and trying to prove their victimhood, whether they’re doing it in a rescuing or persecuting way, is because the victim is the one who’s off the hook. When everybody is in agreement about who the victim is, then the victim has been acted upon. The victim doesn’t have responsibility for the conditions of their life or the conditions of their relationships or whatever the circumstance might be. And that is what we think we want. That’s what we are fighting for when we’re staying in drama. DONNA: But it’s a very disempowering way of being. AUDREY: I love that you use the empowerment dynamic in our academy. All of the self-leadership sections are titled “increasing my personal power by.” And you’re absolutely right. There are countless voices out there that explain to us that the root of change is responsibility. It’s just that simple. Until you own it, you can’t do anything about it. You are powerless. And there’s a difference between being powerless and powerful. DONNA: You’re so right. And you’re making it sound so simple, because I get that energy from you. This has really dawned on you, and you have really taken this work, and it’s a mission for you. These Roles Are Not Who We Are DONNA: So we say the victim, and I really want to emphasize here, that’s not who we are. These are roles that we play. These are characters, faces, personas, types, as Jung spoke so much about. So for our listeners, let’s remember that we’re not speaking about the victimization that does occur to us. We’re talking about our choice and our sense of identity in how we respond to life’s challenges. DONNA: I try very hard to say, when I’m in the victim role, kind of acting like a victim, when I’m in the victim mindset. Underneath all three of the roles is a victim mindset: I don’t like what’s happening right now in life. It’s not what I want. I’m anxious or upset about it. And how we respond to that anxiety, to those heavy emotions, comes out in three different patterns. We can say, okay, it’s not mine to do, and take on that victim role. I don’t have any responsibility here. The persecutor says, well, I don’t want to be the victim, so I’m going to lean in and really take charge and control. There are many faces and characters in how we do that. And then the rescuer says, oh, let me help. I’m uncomfortable with seeing you two in conflict, so let me help, let me please. DONNA: There’s a real cost to all three of these roles. They’re different in our strategy and in the way we behave and respond to our anxiety about something. But they’re all built on focusing on what we don’t want, what we don’t like, our anxiety about it, and then our reacting behavior. We do something to keep the drama going. AUDREY: I love that point, that they’re all racing to the bottom because they’re all based on a victim mindset. For me, I can tell that I’m probably in this problem orientation when I reflect on something that’s going on in my life and I can feel myself shut down, get negative, focus on the things I don’t like, feel really stuck and powerless, like I don’t know how to move forward. Those are all indications. AUDREY: And what’s interesting, Donna, and I love how you said this at the beginning, is that it’s not like life is never going to be hard again, or bad things aren’t going to happen. It’s just tools in a toolbox. It’s recognizing that this habit is probably going to come back up, but I’m going to know how to snap out of it a little bit quicker, just because I can name things, I can recognize things, and I have tools. The Commitment Behind Your Complaint AUDREY: Maybe one of the most powerful things you taught me when I was in the coaching program was that the reason I’m disappointed or upset or frustrated or stuck about something is actually for a good reason. It’s because there’s something I truly value that’s rooted deeply inside this circumstance I’m in. For me, that turned it around. Instead of being down on myself, instead of being frustrated about what I was doing, instead of staying in that negative place, all of a sudden I was like, oh, wait a minute. It’s because I’m a good person with good values, and I just need to remember what I value. That’s one of the tools you teach for reframing that was so helpful. It helped me let go of a bunch of things I couldn’t control, and to reframe things and create a new plan. I don’t know how you and David came up with it, or if it was your idea. DONNA: I would say my nursing background, my coaching background. David wasn’t a coach. David was a facilitator and trainer, just brilliant at making complex ideas simple. I think that’s how his mind created this positive triangle. DONNA: So the name of my book was going to be Love Your Drama. When I first wrote my book it was 2020, and we all remember that. Like so many, we got off the road and I had some time to write. I finished the script, and I had five people who were my readers. All five of them said, Donna, I don’t like your title. Nobody’s going to get that. DONNA: When you hear about the drama triangle, the number one question is, well, how do I stop that? How do I get out of it? And it’s the opposite. There’s something going on in our life that we’re really reacting to, and we can observe our victim behavior or our judgment. When we’re stuck in a drama triangle, it means there’s something we care about. I call it the commitment behind your complaint. You might remember that phrase. There’s a commitment that you have that’s behind your complaining. Otherwise you would just go on to the next thing on your list or the next issue in your life. DONNA: Now, I’m not talking about chronic complaining, which is a behavior of its own, a concern one would really work with if there’s a chronic tendency to complain. I’m speaking of going through life and all of a sudden something happens in the middle of your day and you get triggered. You get upset. Wow, there’s something going on here that I care about. And that’s exactly what we do, because that’s a coaching moment. Learn to be with your clients, be with your family members and friends, and sit in the ick. I call it sitting in the ick. What’s going on here that something matters to me? To me, that’s the door to the next level of awareness and epiphany and greatness in your own life. It’s the opposite of the way most people teach it, which is just stop doing that. We also offer questions and exercises and tips to help facilitate the shift out of the drama triangle into TED. But one of the main ideas is: notice your reactivity. What’s my commitment that’s got me complaining? AUDREY: I love that. Someone else who taught me about commitment is Ben Hardy, who talked about it as an essential component of identity, that one of the things that makes us who we are is our commitments. That perfectly aligns with understanding that something is butting up against how we see ourselves. AUDREY: There’s a bit of identity in all of this. As we were preparing our content for this event this fall, one of the things that kept coming up for us in our problem stories was ego, in a negative sense. We realized that so often the problem story, staying in victimhood or problem orientation, was all about how we were looking to ourselves and how we were looking to other people. Which is why you teach, look at the intention. Because our intentions often weren’t right. When we find ourselves in drama, it really often goes back to: I just have the wrong intentions. I’m trying to control things I shouldn’t be trying to control, and I’m not living within the things I can control, keeping the commitments that matter to me so that I can create a life I love. DONNA: Usually aligned with values. What is it that I really value, and do I behave and keep my commitments to be aligned with those values? Those are very powerful connections, and it goes back to the victim to creator shift. What is mine to do? Two Questions: What Do I Want? What Is My Intention? DONNA: What do I want? As you know, we often don’t know what we want when we get triggered. We just know what we don’t want. But to me, that’s also the doorway. It’s similar to the complaining we just talked about. Okay, I hear what you don’t want. What is it that you do want? I don’t know, I just want this. It’s okay to sit with that. Something you care about has got you really riled up. Maybe you feel invisible because of the way somebody treated you in the grocery line. DONNA: That’s again why I love it as a coaching process. It doesn’t have to be coaching as a professional coach, but as a friend, as a family member, to help the other see what is going on in their mind and heart, where they’ve bumped up against something that isn’t aligned, somewhere they’re not fulfilling the integrity of who they say they are. So I love the “what’s my intention” question. Other than what do I want right here, what don’t I want, what’s on the other side, what’s the reframe? What if this problem were solved? What would it allow me to have or do or be? DONNA: The second question that I love is, what’s my intention? Is my intention to look good? To be right? To get out of doing something hard? Or is my intention to listen deeply? Is my intention to build up? Is my intention to learn something? It’s a continuum, a polarity of two totally different intentions. DONNA: And what really gets my attention, Audrey, is when I catch myself and ask myself that question and I go, yeah, I really want to be right in this moment. Now I am faced with taking responsibility. Am I going to add to the fire of this friction and drama that’s going on right now between whoever is in the room? And am I upset because this situation is forcing me to look at myself and the world in a different way? It’s forcing me to be different. It’s forcing me to go out and do things I’ve been avoiding doing. AUDREY: It’s one of the reasons that I sometimes ruminate and stay, because it’s painful, but sometimes it can feel more comfortable to just stay there complaining about it than to actually do something about it. Why This Lands with Mothers AUDREY: I was thinking while you were talking: what are the reasons these principles and tools hit home so much with our audience at the Mission Driven Mom? I think it’s a couple of reasons. The most important one is that so many women, and I don’t know if this was your experience, but it was definitely mine, we want to be moms, and that sounds fun. Our initial impressions of motherhood are the loving, the nurturing, the playing, all the beautiful things that are going to happen when this baby comes into our lives. Often those first few years can feel a lot like that, albeit with two-year-old tantrums and whatnot. AUDREY: And then they get a little older. We have quite a few moms come into our program whose kids are just getting a little bit older, maybe starting to enter the teenage phase. Now they realize that they aren’t sure what they want as a mom anymore. They weren’t equipped with the tools and the questions and the principles to build a family culture that they love and want. They did go into motherhood with intention, but now they’re at this new phase that requires a new level of attention and intention and creation, to decide: this is who we are, this is what we’re going to be, this is how our relationships look, this is how we work together with each other. AUDREY: They also can have a bit of their identity being lost in that. They feel this friction, this ongoing struggle between what they need and want and what their family needs and wants. They tend to be conscientious, good women who set their own desires aside, but then that feels yucky, and then putting themselves first feels yucky too. They don’t know how to find the balance. AUDREY: And we’ve also had women, to your point, where some of our moms have been homeschoolers, and many homeschooling families are driven by what they don’t want. They exit the school systems because they don’t want that, and they don’t know what they want instead. So then it becomes turmoil and friction in their homes. When they start to become acquainted with these principles and tools, a really big transformation happens in the way that they think and show up for themselves and their families in their homes. The Empowerment Dynamic: Creator, Challenger, Coach AUDREY: We’ve talked quite a bit about the drama and the players and the roles in drama. Give us an overview of the empowerment dynamic. What is the inverse of that? We’ve said the word creator, but talk us through that inverse triangle. DONNA: Perfect. We’ve spent a lot of time on Dr. Karpman, and David and I went down to see Dr. Karpman. AUDREY: I saw a video on YouTube of you with him, actually. It was on his back porch. DONNA: He’s still alive. He’s in his early nineties, I believe. At lunch we asked him, what have you found most successful to help people move out of the drama triangle? And he said, oh, you all have done a lot more than we ever have. I just described it. David and I both remembered that. So the first thing is naming. DONNA: We human beings live on an earth plane of polarities: up, down, hard, soft, in and out, future and past. And so it’s the same thing with these two triangles, this continuum. We have a reactive pattern that arises out of us. The reason I think it’s so familiar, as you said, that people get it so fast, is because Dr. Karpman named universal reactive patterns. The victim: woe is me. The persecutor: I better take control, nobody else will. And the rescuer: oh, let me help. DONNA: So the positive side on that continuum, on that polarity, is the victim to creator shift, which we’ve talked most about. As the victim leans out, and again, the victim role is not who we are, the creator leans in and says, what’s my responsibility? What do I care about? What do I want to do? DONNA: So now, what’s the opposite of the persecutor? The persecutor at its heart is controlling, sometimes not overtly but very behind the scenes, manipulative. It has a fiery energy to it, that persecutor energy. So what is the opposite of that? David named it the challenger. We can challenge ourselves to step up, to grow, to expand. And we can be a challenger to others. AUDREY: I call that the truth teller. DONNA: Oh, I love that. The challenger has the capacity, and we all have had challengers in our life. It may have been a grandmother. It may have been a college professor. My hunch is you’re a challenger to a lot of women in your network. When we’re in the challenger, we have the ability to speak the truth, to be courageous, to be authentic. Maybe no one else in the room has that, but you speak to it. And you do it without blame or put-down. AUDREY: That’s why I love this truth teller description. DONNA: So that’s the opposite of persecutor. And the last one is the rescuer. The rescuer steps in and says, oh, let me do it for you, unknowingly disempowering others by doing for them what is theirs to do. So the opposite is the coach, not necessarily the professional coach at all, but the coach in us that is the good friend who takes a walk and asks inquiring, open-ended questions that help the other clarify what it is they do want. Oh, I hear that you don’t want this, but what do you want? The rescuer is a supportive role. Cares a lot, thank goodness we care. But the coach leaves the power with the other, to make decisions for themselves. DONNA: That is a really tough one when we’re helpers and we want to fix and make things better. To leave the power with others is a huge part of what that coach role is, and it distinguishes the rescuer from the coach. So those are the three roles that we call the empowerment dynamic. And we have a TED tools kit to help get out of that drama and into the empowerment. It’s a continuum, as we said. We’ll always get triggered. We want to move our center of gravity more out of living in the reactive world and into living more and more into the empowerment dynamic world, updating our operating system. So there you have it. That’s the brief. AUDREY: Thank you. So simple, and it’s really not easy, is it? Seeing Your Problems as Challengers AUDREY: I’ll give you two takeaways for me that have really helped me with this framework. Seeing the challenger, like you’re saying, we can show up for someone else as a truth teller and a challenger. We can push back on them when they’re complaining and all of that kind of stuff. But for me, a huge shift happened when I realized that I could also decide, at any moment in my own life, with the things that I’m facing and the problem stories I tend to fall into, that I could choose to see them as challengers. AUDREY: That reframed it for me. Whenever I remember that, then I’m asking a lot better questions. I’m asking myself, what is the truth about this? What does this circumstance have to teach me? What is life asking of me? Why am I bumping up against reality in such a painful way? When I frame the difficulty and the problem as a challenger, I can even keep myself from going down a rabbit hole. Because otherwise I probably will. DONNA: The relationship between how these roles get so interfaced is that when you can stop and pause and breathe. There’s a reason the adage “count to ten” has been with us since who knows when, but a long time, because it really does allow our neurology, our heart and our prefrontal cortex, to come back online so we can be smarter. You go, wow, what just happened? How am I being asked to learn? What is the gift here? DONNA: If we’re really hijacked and triggered, it’s very challenging to ask those questions. It may take a couple of hours. It may take a couple of days to be able to look back and deconstruct what happened. But keep asking, Audrey. I love that. Keep asking, what has shown up here in my life to teach me right now? And that’s how we see other things that we would previously have labeled as persecutors. We now can see them as challengers. AUDREY: And that takes a very emotionally grounded person to be able to ask those questions and to sit in the ick. DONNA: I recently have been facing the decision, after 25 years, of whether or not to sell the family home. I’ve been in a six or eight week process making that, and boy, sitting in the ick of all the variables of a big decision. In my twenties and thirties I wanted to buy a house. We wanted a big family home. That’s not what I want anymore. The reason I’m saying that is that our lives go through so many stages, and we need a capacity to update how we’re making sense of the new information. The moms you referred to who now have teenagers, it requires them to get clear about values, get clear about a whole different situation. That ability to keep asking the same questions: what is there here for me to learn now? What do I care most about? What are my values? They change over life. The Rescuer and the Coach AUDREY: I love the challenger part of the empowerment dynamic, to ask us to step up, take responsibility. Just like we can play all three roles in our own heads in drama, we can be the persecutor and the victim and the rescuer, we can also, I’ve learned, play those three roles for ourselves when we want to move out of drama. We can coach ourselves and challenge ourselves and keep striving to create. Obviously lean on a friend, teach people around you, bring them on the journey with you. But also, in those moments, we can do that for ourselves. AUDREY: My other takeaway is about the coach. I tell people often that I’m a recovering rescuer. That’s definitely my go-to role, especially in parenting and friendships. I want to rescue, which usually shows up as doing something for you that you should be doing for yourself, or doing something for you that you didn’t ask me to do, but I see that you need it. And learning and realizing that that actually makes you feel broken, because I’m assuming you can’t do it for yourself. AUDREY: So the coaching piece I’ve had to drill really deep into, because I’ve had to use coaching skills to change the way I parent, especially in parenting my adult children, because that has not come as naturally or as easily for me as it did to parent younger children. I remember one time I just got out a piece of paper and imagined a soccer coach, and I wrote down all the traits of that soccer coach. I was trying to identify for myself what a coach can do and what a coach can’t do, to help me reframe the difference between the coach and the rescuer. AUDREY: The coach is not allowed to step onto the field and take the ball and run the play. There are so many boundaries there that you might want to cross over as a mother, but you wouldn’t even be able to in a true coaching circumstance. What can you do? You can teach them how to play, but you can’t practice for them. You can’t force them to get better. You can’t force them to come to practice. You can’t force them to give their all. There are so many parameters. Once I had that list in front of me, it helped me say, okay, well then what power do I actually have in coaching anyone? In a real life circumstance, what are the boundaries around that? What are the limitations I need to honor, to honor myself and to honor them, to be a coach and not slip into the other thing? DONNA: There are real costs. It hurts the relationship a lot. It can really hurt, and it exhausts you. How Do I See the Other? DONNA: May I offer another question to put on your list? How do I see the other? Do I see them as a victim that’s not capable of handling this themselves? Or do I see them as a creator? Do I see them as learning, and as having the capacity, as a divine being, to take charge of their own life? DONNA: How we answer that question can be a remarkable insight into what you do next, because it’s broken my heart more than once when I get honest and I go, wow, with my adult daughters, I am judging them as not capable. Is that the way I want to relate to my adult daughters? It’s sometimes shocking, just like when I ask, what’s my intention? Well, I want to look good and I want to be right. Okay. I think I’ve been. How do I see the other? Do I really see them as not capable? That’s not how I want to relate to others. DONNA: The reason we rescue, we think, is because we want to help. And it’s not. I’m talking about serial rescuing. You and I know what I mean, that our only go-to way of working with life’s challenges is just to step in and fix and help. The cost is very high to do that. It’s disempowering to others. And you likely will never know, but it’s likely that others are going to see you as a persecutor. AUDREY: And that’s the last thing we rescuers want. We’re just trying to help, and we’re seen as a persecutor. DONNA: Are you resonating with that? AUDREY: One hundred percent. Because I would only step in if I didn’t think they could do it. I mean, what other conclusion can they draw? DONNA: Well, part of it is because we want to be seen as kind, wonderful, loving people. It’s an identity issue for many of us. That’s how we’ve gone through life, that we’ll get accolades and love if we help and fix other people. That’s usually learned behavior in the family, learned behavior in some cultures and religions. There are different ways we pick up those ingrained patterns. AUDREY: One of the reasons I realized that I do it is because I don’t want the people around me to fail, because it will be painful for all of us. It’s a pain avoidance mechanism. If I step in and rescue and help you get there and make up the difference between where you are and where you want to be, if I can just fill in that gap, then we won’t have to suffer that you failed, because I’ll suffer with you. I’m your mom and you’re part of me and we’re intimately linked, and that’s going to be painful and I don’t want to go through that pain. So let’s just make this thing happen. DONNA: Okay, so there’s a justification going on here. AUDREY: Exactly. So that’s what I’ve had to remind myself. No, failure is a tool. The law of the harvest is God’s way. They must butt up against life themselves, or they’ll be crippled, they’ll be weaker. That’s where I coach myself and remind myself of those good laws and principles. That’s not what any of us want. My intention really truly is for them to thrive on their own, for them to be proud of who they are, and for us to have a thriving relationship. That’s what I actually really want. And so I have to behave that way. DONNA: You want them to learn and grow. There’s another part of us that is the controlling part, that we rescuers often don’t like to admit, which is that we just want to get it done. Come on. Can’t you all see how quickly this could be if we just did this and this? So the rescuer has a huge controlling element. So what is it we’re trying to control? Well, the situation, fixing it. But what we’re really trying to manage is our anxiety about a situation we don’t think should be that way. DONNA: One of the first things I encourage when I coach people who have a fault of rescuing mode is to learn to pause and learn to hold silence. Bite your tongue if you have to. AUDREY: And I’ve said that. I’m not going to say anything. I’m not going to say anything. And I’ve got to leave the room so that I don’t say anything, because it’s just going to hurt for me to say something. Outcomes and Goals: The Garden AUDREY: I was taught a really good lesson by a mentor years ago. She told me the story of one time when she and her husband decided they were going to have a family garden. They got the seeds or the plants or whatever it was, and they went out one Saturday morning to do this gardening with their children. The children were young and they didn’t really know what they were doing. So the husband kept taking it out of their hands and doing it for them, getting frustrated with them, pushing things along so that the garden could be planted. AUDREY: When it was all over, she and her husband had this debrief, and she said, well, how did you feel about that? And he said, oh, it was so frustrating, the kids just didn’t know what they were doing, they were going so slow, we weren’t getting anything done. And she said, oh, you thought this was about us actually having a garden. AUDREY: It’s actually not what this is about. It’s actually about us enriching our relationships and teaching our children. If we get plants out of it, great, but that’s not actually why we’re here. I think about that often. DONNA: It’s a great story. And it’s what I speak about in the coaching program about being outcome oriented, the difference between an outcome and a goal. Goals are usually, I mean, we need goals to get things done in our life, sure. But as a coach, I work less with goals and more with outcomes. So the goal in that case might be, hey, let’s plant the garden. And how would we know if we accomplished that? Well, the seeds got planted, we watered it, the plants start coming up. DONNA: But what is it we really want? This is the power of it. I want connection in this case. I want an experience of being with the children. We are a family that experiences life together with fun and creativity. That could be the outcome statement. If that husband and wife could have clarified that out loud, I think it would have allowed that father to say, oh, here’s the outcome. It’s not about the goal. And to enjoy the experience. Then they would have accomplished that outcome. It’s a much different way of going through life. What do I want? Clarify outcomes first and then goals second. AUDREY: Thank you, Donna. I think that’s like the first chapter in my book. Really, really clear about what’s my focus here, what’s the outcome I want. The Title, and Facing Your Fears AUDREY: This is on page 118 of your book. You say: “Tara asked me to accept and nourish all the different parts of myself. If I resist doing that, she says, the fearful parts will grow stronger and gain even more power and authority over me than they have now. Awakening my inner observer, facing those fearful parts and listening to their voices, will get me out of the grip of the DDT and into self empowerment.” Then you paused and looked over what she had written and added, “honoring my ongoing struggles inside and out is the doorway to freedom and choice.” AUDREY: So as we finish up, you can share anything else that’s on your heart and mind. But the last question I would ask you is this. In the front of my book I wrote, if you embrace your fears, you’ll have a whole new relationship with them. What would your advice be to mothers around this idea, that if you face your fears you’ll have a new relationship with them, in terms of everything we’ve talked about today? DONNA: What a brilliant question. Let me answer that by first starting with how I took the feedback from my readers before the book was published, the ones who said, oh, we don’t like your title of Love Your Drama. It was my daughter who sent back the binder with the printed book, and she had circled with a big red circle where I had said, right at the end of the book, that TED said to Sophia, you know, this is really about who do you want to be on the way to what you want. My daughter circled that phrase. She said, mom, this is pure gold. This is your title. So that’s how my title came from my daughter giving me the feedback. She’s a psychotherapist, a brilliant, highly conscious mom. DONNA: So what advice would I offer in facing my fears? First of all, what does facing it even mean? I would say the first thing is just noticing the speed of life. Sometimes we’re going so fast that we’re not allowing our body to tell us, to guide us, that there’s something we’re scared about, something we don’t like, some heavy emotion. Fear is kind of a catch-all phrase for those heavy emotions. So slow down, so that you can recognize when your body is like a tuning fork and is saying, hey, pay attention here. DONNA: And then have a practice where you’re learning to be with whatever is rising that you’re naming. But name it lightly. Here’s what I mean by this. When we name something like, oh, I feel really scared about my mother-in-law because she does this and that, that’s the event, and we can actually name it and explode it like it’s a feature film. Instead, lightly notice it and describe it, and pay more attention to the feelings that you have about the situation than to the story about the situation. DONNA: In the book, I call it the phase of three stories, because you really don’t know often what’s going on. You can make up three stories, and that broadens your perspective. Maybe you really don’t know what’s going on, so have fun with all those stories that could be going on. That alone will help you soften the worry that you have created about a situation. DONNA: And then have a practice. Journaling for me is very helpful, and journaling might be three or four paragraphs to help me move the angst that I’m feeling out of my system onto a piece of paper. I write a fair amount, so that’s a practice for me. For others it’s a walk, or some breathing. Have your practice that you actually really practice. DONNA: So first, allow yourself to notice. That’s the first step. Name it lightly, just notice it and describe it, rather than get into an extensive story, because that actually can dig the fear deeper into your neurology. You want to be able to have a relationship with it rather than be that fear. And then a practice to help you allow it to flow and let go of it. DONNA: And then finally, your beautiful question about what is it I’m ready to learn now. What has this showed up for me as a gift so I can learn? Life Is Difficult, and That Is the Structure of Reality AUDREY: That’s beautiful. It’s such a big question. And that’s who we are as human beings. We are learning machines. We love to grow and become, but any type of growth involves pain. That’s the structure of reality. So if we can emotionally accept that. M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled, the first sentence is, life is difficult. That was a really big paradigm shift for me when I first internalized it. He says this is a great truth, maybe one of the greatest truths, because once we accept it, we can transcend it. DONNA: You brought that up. Or the Buddhist idea, you know, life is full of suffering. I had such an easy life for much of my mid years, and part of it is a bit of positive toxicity, because I was such an optimist. I didn’t see any of it. And yet now I look back and I go, life is challenging, and not in a way to say, oh, woe is me, I’m a victim to life. It is through living with challenges, through me, as me, for me, that I’m able to see the challenges as blessings. Because if life wasn’t difficult, it would lose its meaning. If everyone could get to the summit, the summit wouldn’t mean anything. AUDREY: And so the fact that we have to put our shoulder to the rock and push and become stronger through the process, to accept that yin and yang, that we are creators but the creation will have difficult aspects to it. That makes it even more worth doing, because of the accomplishment and the gratification and the development on the other side of it. The joy. DONNA: Yes. Well, you are certainly a learner and a leader and a visionary. It’s not easy to have a vision of seeing a problem, women putting the rose in and mostly complaining and being self-critical. You took that problem and saw the opportunity of how to be of service. And you took action and followed through. That’s not always what we do, especially as a busy mom. AUDREY: Well, thank you. And thank you for your work. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: Is there anything else, any other advice you would give to our audience, or anything else you’d like to share before we close this out? DONNA: Not so much advice, I guess, but to say I’ve written a blog every Friday for over 12 years. Writing is definitely a big way for me, and it helps me to think through these distinctions and the nuances. You can go follow that. Go to empowermentdynamic.com. You’ll see a very robust website. If you want to get that free Friday newsletter, you can sign up for that. Most Fridays we have the essay, and then we have different programs and activities and classes that people could take to learn more. AUDREY: And books. I don’t know if I own all of them, but I own several of yours and David’s, all worth buying. Of course, we encourage our moms to buy them and utilize them. And I’ve encouraged women to go and do your coaching program, which I can’t speak highly enough about. We’ll put the links below this conversation for them, so they can consume all the beautiful truths that you teach and all the support that you offer. AUDREY: I feel so indebted to you and David for the work that you’ve done. It has transformed my life. It has made me feel so much more capable of living closer to the kind of person I’d like to be. I just feel like I owe you a great debt of gratitude in that regard. And the joy of watching your work bless so many lives is also beautiful. And the privilege of speaking about some of it this fall at our event is also going to be incredible. For those listening who want to come, the link will be below for that as well. But again, please go follow Donna. Those blog posts are really enlightening. They come into my inbox and I read them often. Thank you again for being here. DONNA: Oh, you’re welcome. I was just going to say, I know that you met David and were very close to him in one way and in the work, and he died very suddenly, a year ago in April. So I have now, as the sole remaining co-founder of the work, taken on new partners, and we’re in a whole new generation of work, very dedicated to expanding the framework with more tools and more great things coming. So I’m very excited about the future of expanding what David always said he wanted to live on for seven generations. AUDREY: It’s incredible. I think it will. I pray it will. Thank you. Thank you for being here, Donna.
EP 167 You loved your child before they were born
Years ago I read a book by Robert Fritz that taught me something that has changed my life: that often we think we know what we want, but when we actually ask more questions and get down to our true motivations and intentions, we are really just reacting, not creating! Resources from the Episode: Robert Fritz Inc. - Robert's website, books, articles, and program schedule Creating Your Life: the three-month course Robert built, offered through Creator Tools Robert Fritz Creating Channel - Robert's films, songs, and writing on the creative process The Robert Fritz Structural Consulting Channel - full consultations, filmed Books by Robert Fritz: The Path of Least Resistance, Creating, Your Life as Art, The Managerial Moment of Truth, and Identity, co-written with Dr. Wayne Andersen Mothers of Creation ** - Provo, Utah - September 26th** Episode 163: What It Means to Be a Creator AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 167: Robert Fritz on What Creation Actually Is Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. I am so excited for us to spend a few minutes today with Robert Fritz, who I greatly admire and am very honored to have with us. Thanks for being here, Robert. ROBERT: My pleasure, thank you. AUDREY: Let me tell the listeners a little about him. His bio is technically three pages long and thick with worldwide influence. Here is a summary of some of the highlights of his life’s work. He is an acclaimed composer, filmmaker, author, and management consultant, best known for developing the theory of structural dynamics, which explains how underlying structures shape human and organizational behavior. Educated at the Boston Conservatory of Music and in Germany, Robert has spent decades helping corporations, government agencies, educators, and nonprofit organizations create lasting change through his principles of structural thinking and the creative process. His work has influenced leaders such as Peter Senge and has been applied by organizations including IBM, Blue Shield of California, the US Department of Defense, and educational systems worldwide. He is also an award-winning composer and filmmaker whose films have earned more than 250 international awards, and the author of several influential books, including The Path of Least Resistance and The Managerial Moment of Truth. AUDREY: Today we are going to focus most of our attention around my favorite book. This one right here, and this is probably an old copy. Creating. The subtitle is A Practical Guide to the Creative Process and How to Use It to Create Anything, a Work of Art, a Relationship, a Career, or a Better Life. Robert, thank you for being here with us today. ROBERT: Thank you. I am delighted to talk to you. How the Book Came to Be AUDREY: This book has shaped some of my thinking. It has corresponded with other things I have studied and experienced in life and proven itself over and over again. Many of the principles and concepts you teach in it have borne out in the real world and proven to me to be very, very important. So I am just curious personally how this book came to be. ROBERT: I had a two-book contract with Ballantine Books. The first was The Path of Least Resistance, and then there was time for a second book as part of the contract. I thought the major focus should be on creating. Because creating, or the creative process, is the most successful process for accomplishment in history. It created all of the arts, science, commerce. And yet mostly we do not learn how to create. ROBERT: We learn in school how to react or respond to circumstances. The major difference between the creative process and what we learn is that what we learn is to think about the circumstances first, and then what do we do about that. If you are rebellious as a kid, you react. If you are cooperative, you respond. But it is still the circumstances that are the driving force. The creative process is really different. It is your choices. And one of the major choices the creative process always begins with is, what do you create? ROBERT: My background, as you said, is the arts, and particularly composition. I have a bachelor’s and master’s in composition from the Boston Conservatory. What we learn in music in particular is that it is the underlying structure of music that determines how music goes. We have things in music called form and analysis. If you are in a conservatory, you go to these classes and you analyze Beethoven or Chopin, a number of different types of pieces. And it is not a matter of how does it feel and what do you think of when you hear the piece. It is, how did the composer get you to feel that? What are the elements in play that give rise to predictable patterns of behavior? ROBERT: When I was teaching composition at New England Conservatory, I began to wonder if that same principle could apply to everyone, not just composers, but everyone in creating their own lives. And that led me to developing the principles that are in the book you really like. Self-Esteem, Ego, and the Focus of the Creative Process ROBERT: What do you like about it, by the way? AUDREY: If you are out looking for answers, as I was, there are a few different camps. There is the camp that focuses entirely on the self, on self-esteem. What do you want to create in relationship to this ego? What will service you? It is all about you. ROBERT: I wrote a book with Dr. Wayne Andersen called Identity, and the subtitle of the book is that it does not matter what you think about yourself, which is ironic. It seems like the self-esteem people have never read a biography of successful people. They would see none of them had high self-esteem. But the difference was they were not focused on themselves. They were focused on what they were up to, what they were doing, what mattered to them, what they were creating. ROBERT: It is always on how am I doing, and how does it make me look, and do I like myself. Totally irrelevant in the creative process. AUDREY: It is interesting, because we are building an event this fall called Mothers of Creation, and it is all about the creative process and how mothers can engage in it. We start the day by having everyone write out a problem story. What in your life are you feeling upset about or stuck in? In preparation for that, our team was writing out problem stories and picking them apart, trying to figure out why this is a problem for me. There were a few different reasons, but we were trying to find what was in common. Ironically, one of the core components for all of us was that our intentions were wrong and our ego was right in the center of it. That is why we were bumping up against life in that way, unhappy about something happening to us because of what it was going to cost, what pain it was going to cause us, how it was going to make us look, or what other people were going to think. That was so enlightening and clarifying. AUDREY: It is such a great insight to understand the shift of focus from how am I doing and how do I look, to what is this outcome I am trying to create, how close am I to it, and what do I need to do to create it. And is it worth my precious life energy? Because there are a million paths we could choose, and it needs to be worthy of the few minutes we have here. ROBERT: That is a principle called hierarchy. What is more important, what is less important. A lot of people spend their lives on things that are less important to them, because they have not really sorted out that value system of hierarchy. AUDREY: I read The Death of Ivan Ilyich by Tolstoy a little while ago, and that is the theme of that novella. He spent his life on what was not important, taking direction from everyone around him, being a subject of his environment, thinking that was what he wanted, thinking he was arriving. Ego was so deeply entrenched in everything that was going on, because it was all reflective of that. Is this now servicing the identity I want to have of myself? Obligation and Choice AUDREY: So to answer your question, I would say there is one camp saying get what you want, but the underlying message is to service the ego. And there are other camps I lean more toward that say, no, actually take responsibility, have discipline, show up, fulfill your duty. The conscientious aspects of life. I think there are some powerful, good, solid principles in that camp. ROBERT: I am sure, because what you are describing is obligation. But really, we are not obligated to do any of that. Often what happens is people turn what they want into an obligation. For example, let us say you are caring for an adult, your parents. And you say, well, I really have to do it. Well, no, you actually do not have to do it. You are making a choice that is really quite altruistic, and you do not even have the benefits of knowing the altruism of it, because you are manipulating yourself into obligation rather than seeing, I could do this or not do this. ROBERT: Obligation means you have no choice. You have to do it. Choice means you can do it or not. AUDREY: That is what I was getting at. What you are talking about is the best parts of both of those camps. It is the middle ground that says it should not be all about me, even if for no other reason than that as soon as it is all about you, it will not even service you best anyway. And you choose it fully. But then you commit yourself to it. There is this component of responsibility, but it is responsibility you have chosen. It is a commitment you have made. Why Commitment Works Against You AUDREY: That dovetails into something you say at the start of the book. I cannot remember the exact phrase, but basically that creating is an act of love. I wanted you to speak to that love component of creation, how you would define creation and creating or being creative, and what the connection with love is. ROBERT: Before I do that, I want to be with you a little bit on the commitment. If you think about choice, you can do it or not do it. When you do a so-called commitment, what you are doing is turning the choice into an obligation. The reason you are doing it now is because you were committed. Which puts you out of touch with the actual motivation, which is your true aspiration to accomplish whatever it is. AUDREY: So would you say that is where the component of vision comes in, rather than commitment? You would say vision instead? ROBERT: It is more a matter of being in touch with the reality that you still want it. Personally, I do not like to exercise. I have a primary choice of being healthy. A primary choice generates a series of secondary choices. Secondary choices are choices you may not really, in and of themselves, want to do, like exercise. But you do them because they are motivated by a hierarchically higher choice that they are serving. A vision or an outcome that you want. ROBERT: Now what happens if you lose touch with your primary choice? You lose motivation. You do things like commitment, because then you are forcing yourself into doing something you have lost touch with the actual desire for. But if you stay in touch with the outcome, you are never needing to be committed, because you are always making the strategic secondary choice in support of the outcome that you want. ROBERT: In terms of love, by the way, Robert Frost said all of the great things are done for their own sake. Why do we do what we do? Sometimes we actually do it for return on investment. Especially since you deal with mothers. A lot of times mothers do this thing about turning what they want into an obligation, because it is really tough to be a mother. I remember when I became a father, and sometimes my wife would go off to work and I was the house husband for a while. How much work it was. This is not nothing. ROBERT: But we love our kids. So we do a lot of things for our kids that otherwise we would not do. And we do them really for an altruistic purpose. All the great things are done for their own sake. But a lot of times it is so frustrating and so hard that people begin to manipulate themselves into their secondary choices, losing touch with the primary choice. ROBERT: It looks like you are doing something you do not want to do. But in fact, you are doing something you want to do. Not that you like the secondary choices. Sometimes we hate them. But the motivation is not that, it is what it creates. So I think it is important that people understand their underlying motivation. Why are you doing this thing? Generative Love AUDREY: You say here, in the creative process, love is generative rather than simply responsive. Can you explain what you mean by that? ROBERT: This is the difference between professional creators, let’s say filmmakers and composers and actors, and the rest. We usually think of love in the romantic version of it. You meet and you fall in love. So the situation first, the love second. Now, in the creative process, in terms of it being generative love, you love the creation before it exists, which is your motivation to create it. So the filmmaker loves the film before the film exists. The novelist loves the novel before it exists. It is generative love, a different kind of love, because you are doing it before it even exists. AUDREY: When you are loving your child before it exists, before it shows up, you are already thinking about it and caring for it and buying things and making plans and having a vision for how this family will look and who you will all be and how they will grow up. It casts a lot of vision when you are planning parenthood. AUDREY: So this generative love, one of the ways you put it is that you love the creation into being, or you love it enough to create it. ROBERT: No, you do not love it into being. You actually do a little work. But the love is the motivation, meaning the love is what is driving you to create it. For example, when I am doing a film, I know the film I am making before I make it. I do not know every aspect of it, because you get to the set and it is raining that day, and you have to do different things to make it work. But there is a way that you have this relationship with the film you are making before it even exists. Or writing music, or writing a song, or writing a show, or writing a book. That is a different kind of experience. The Love, Hate, Love Cycle ROBERT: It is an interesting thing, because often in the real creative process in the profession, particularly in the arts, there is a love-hate-love relationship. It goes a little like this. You love the thing as you are creating it and making it. Then it is done. And then there is a period where it did not quite live up to exactly what you imagined, and you kind of hate it for a while. And then you rediscover it, because you become audience for it rather than creator of it. You start to see it in its own terms and have a love for it again. That is a very common experience creators have. AUDREY: I like how you point that out in the book. So often whatever we are creating falls short of the vision we had for it and what we thought it could be. And accepting that the path was still worth it, that the process was regenerative, that the process was an important part of becoming, that you still do it anyway. You do it even though you know it might not live up to the standards you have for it. ROBERT: And if you did not like it enough, you would stop. You would destroy it. You really do not destroy it, because you like it enough. And then later you rediscover it and go, oh, that is pretty good. AUDREY: It is funny, because I was recently doing a little class with some youth. We decided to do a Bob Ross painting night just for fun. We all had our little canvases and we turned on the video. I am not a painter. Mine turned out awful, but it is still sitting there on my nightstand. I passed it this morning. I know it is awful, but I did it. I painted it. So I cannot bring myself to throw it away, because even though it is far below what I would like to be able to create, I created it, so it is hard to let it go. Van Gogh, Asimov, and the Myth of Talent ROBERT: What happens, though, is if you really wanted to become a painter, you would practice. Of course, some people have more talent than other people. But it is just a starting point. Think about Van Gogh. He turned out to be one of the greatest painters of all time, but he was not naturally talented. It was not easy for him to draw, to really see perspective and so on. But independent of that, he understood how to learn. ROBERT: I always hated that Kirk Douglas film, Lust for Life, where he is playing Van Gogh and talking about, I have got a feeling. You read Van Gogh’s letters to his brother. He is sharp as a tack. He is incredibly structural. He understands perspective. He discusses things from a completely artistic point of view, in terms of mixing colors and so on. He really knew what he was doing. He was not just feeling some kind of explosion of emotion. He was very calculating. AUDREY: That reminds me of what I read about Isaac Asimov once. The number of books that man cranked out. People say, oh, he is such a genius, but it was just a schedule. It was just his lifestyle. He was at his desk at eight or nine every morning, and he sat there and wrote until five. I am sure there were bursts of inspiration now and again, but he just was a creator, and he chose to create, and he showed up for that creation every single day. ROBERT: Yes. The difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional can do it no matter what the circumstances. An amateur can only do it when they are inspired, when they feel like it. But a great actor, a great director, a great playwright, a great writer, they can do it at the drop of a hat. Structural Tension AUDREY: One of the things I talk to moms about that has been super helpful for me is to remember, when we think about creation, and in the case of moms creating a family culture, creating balance between their needs and wants and those of their children, there are many things they long to create and to have that are very good, beautiful, worthy things that will bless many people. But the process to get there, like you said, has not been taught to them, and it can be a huge stumbling block. One of the things I remind them of is that love is not just a feeling. It is also an action. You are welcome to hate being on the treadmill this morning, but recognizing that getting on the treadmill is actually an act of love toward yourself, through the desire to have something bigger than being on this treadmill, an outcome that is bigger than that. ROBERT: In all of my books I write about structural tension. Structural tension is a structure. Whenever you have tension, it strives for resolution. So that is a force in play. Structural tension is the essence of the creative process, where you have a desired outcome, and you are aware of what you want and where you are in relationship to that, and there will be a difference. That contrast, that difference, creates tension. Not, by the way, anxiety or stress, but structural tension, like a rubber band. A rubber band has a tendency to want to resolve. And that motivates actions that help you move from where you are to where you want to be. So there are two data points. One is what do I want, and where am I now in relation to it. ROBERT: Now, let us think about generally what people want. Usually they want good health. They want quality of life. They want meaningful things to do. They want good relationships. These are worthy things to want. Plus, I want them anyway, whether they are worthy or not. The question is, how do you create those things? If you think circumstantially, you end up problem solving, which is not creating. AUDREY: Pause right there before you go on. What do you mean, if you are thinking circumstantially, you get stuck there? ROBERT: The circumstances are driving the action. You are reacting or responding to circumstances. AUDREY: Like other people’s expectations, or things that come up in your life, or just situations. Situational, scheduling, time. Okay, go ahead. ROBERT: But if I start with, here is what I want, here is where I am, already I have got a structure that wants to move in the direction of the outcome. Because we want that tension to resolve. And then, what actions do I need to take? Now these actions are motivated by this structural tension. So the tendency is not only to take the actions, but to take them in the context of the focal point being the outcome we want to create. You Can Solve All of Your Problems and Still Not Have What You Want ROBERT: That is very different in life than problem solving. A lot of times people think of their lives as a problem to solve, and the idea is that if you solved all your problems, everything would be okay. But here is the actual truth of the matter. You can solve all of your problems and still not have what you want. Creating is different than problem solving. ROBERT: So the question is not how do I solve the problem. The question is what outcome am I trying to achieve. Where am I now, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And what actions can I take to move from where I am to where I want to be, to accomplish the outcomes that I want. And this is a cumulative skill. The more you create, the more you can create. The Color of the River AUDREY: One of the things you talk about that is so profound, but also such a huge stumbling block, is that in order to create appropriate structural tension, in order to actually move well toward this new outcome, you must be able to properly assess reality. You talk about this a lot in the book, the huge problem people have with that. Why do you think that is such a big problem, and what tools or advice would you give people who are striving to do it? ROBERT: Understand that the reason they have trouble seeing reality is because they have various concepts that they impose on reality. I have this example in that book and in other books I have written. It is from a book by Arthur Stern called Color: How to See and Paint It. It is about teaching artists how to see color and paint it. You have got to see it before you can paint it. ROBERT: So he takes a group of his art students to the shores of the Hudson River, and he points across the river and says, what colors do you see? The students said, well, the Brook building is red, and the tower is white, and the other building is yellow. And then he handed out what he calls spot screens, which is basically like an index card with a hole in it. He had the students hold the card up to the background. And he said, okay, now what colors do you see? They all got very quiet, until somebody finally said blue. Everything over there is blue. ROBERT: Now, Stern said, first of all, the reason it was blue is that on hazy days you do not actually see the color of the objects. You see the atmosphere between you and the objects. The color of the water and the color of the sky created a blue atmosphere, and those were the colors they were actually seeing. But then he went on to say, why did they think they were seeing red and yellow and white and all these other colors? Because they were imposing a concept of reality on reality. They were painting what they expected. They were seeing what they expected to see, versus what was really there. ROBERT: So to be able to really see reality, you have got to be objective and truthful. And that means a lot of times your fixed ideas are wrong. It is hard for some people to see reality because of the beliefs they have, the ideas they have come to conclusions about, the concepts they hold up in front of reality instead of looking at it objectively. What Do You Want, and Why AUDREY: There is a short section early in the book with three quick examples that I think are so helpful. You basically deconstruct it. You ask, what do you want to create? Then they say it, and then you ask, why do you want to create that? And then you highlight for the reader, you see, they are trying to solve a problem. They are not actually thinking about what they want instead. They are responding. AUDREY: So discovering that this is something you actually really want to create, and choosing it freely, is harder than you would think. And then assessing where you currently are, so you can see reality and build appropriate tension, can also be a challenge. ROBERT: Well, it is an orientation. You can get better at it. It is not hard for me, by the way. It would be easy for everybody in a different orientation than a responsive one. In a more creative one, your general modus operandi is just to think in terms of, what is the outcome I want? Even in difficult situations, what is the outcome I want? What is the best thing that can happen here? What do I want to see happen? And where am I now in relationship to that? And then that generates ideas about how to get there. AUDREY: It is funny, because so often I work to use these tools and principles as a mom, and so often I am upset or frustrated or worried about something situational. But then I go back to, what do I want? And it is almost always simply relational. And that is something I can actually do something about. That is actually what I want most, for us to just be close and talk and love each other and give and take. The Deal ROBERT: Can I tell you what we did when we were raising our kids? We had something called the deal. Now, here is the deal. Our job is to take care of you until you can take care of yourself. And our job is to teach you how to take care of yourself, so that you can start to make more and more of your own decisions. When we think that you know how to choose in a particular area, you can do it. But until then, we get to choose. And it is a fair deal. It is not a manipulative deal. It is a fair deal. ROBERT: So our daughter, for example. There was a certain point where the main thing about dressing for school was that she was dressed warmly enough. She did not know how to do that at first, so my wife would choose. And then when she knew how to do that, she got to choose what she wore. Sometimes she chose the silliest things, but they were warm enough, which was the criteria. Good enough. ROBERT: The thing about it is that what we were allowing her to do was learn how to make choices. And the more choices she made, she could see when consequences worked out well. This was for my son as well, the same kind of thing. ROBERT: I wrote a children’s story once called The Baby’s Job. In this story there is a young child, and the mother brings home a baby. At one point the baby starts to cry, and the child says, what is the baby doing? And the mother says, he is telling us it is time to take care of him. What do you mean? Well, the baby’s job is to be taken care of. And then our job is to teach the baby how, when they get older and older, to take care of themselves. That is what we do. Parents teach our children how to take care of themselves over a period of time. So in a cumulative way, the more choices they are able to make, really able to make responsibly, the better it is, because then they get to see the consequences of their choices in relationship to taking care of themselves. AUDREY: That vision, that this is actually at the heart of what we are trying to do as parents, is really centering. It really helps us get rid of a lot of nonsense that we otherwise tend to focus on. Identity Is Not Your Actions ROBERT: One thing most parents do, and I even caught myself doing it from time to time, is inadvertently giving your child an impression that their actions have to do with their identity. You are a good kid, good grades. You are a bad kid if you do not. You are a good kid if you keep your room clean, and not a good kid if you do not. What that does is teach them that their identity is tied to their actions, versus their identity is not tied to their actions. AUDREY: You have a really great chapter on that as well. You were talking about how human instincts can be ignored when identity is made to seem a matter of survival. You talk all about this first-person orientation and how unhelpful and unhealthy it is, off the back of talking about Nazism and Stalin and those kinds of ideas. Here it is. There is no relationship between your opinion of yourself and your ability to create what you want. And you also said your thought is not your mind. So in a lot of different ways you are parsing out what is you and what is not you. Your actions are not your identity. Your thoughts are not your identity. ROBERT: Let me add one dimension to that. Who cares? I think I told in that book the story of having dinner one night with somebody who had written a lot of books on identity. And he said, the most important question you can ever ask yourself is, who are you? And I said, that is really an easy question to answer the way you answer it. Who wants to know? ROBERT: It is not a very important question at all, because it does not matter. First of all, how do you even know how to define yourself? We say, well, I am a this, I am a that. In fact, you cannot be what you have. The you that is having the thing. AUDREY: But it makes the focus inward versus outward. How am I doing? What does it make me look like? ROBERT: This thing happens a lot to creators. While they are creating, they seem to disappear. When Time Disappears AUDREY: I was reading a lot more about Michelangelo lately, and his submersion into his projects, like nothing else in the world existed when he was in the middle of something massive. ROBERT: Exactly. That is the theme. Particularly professional creators, you can go on for hours. AUDREY: In this moment in my life, this season of my life, I am so caught up in creating this program for moms and building this business and the people I get to work with and the team we have built. It is so rewarding, but I do not know its potential. I just have a vision for where we can get first, and then I hope that as I approach it, that vision expands and gets bigger for what we can do after that. There are so many days or moments where I am just head down, so caught up in thinking about it, and people in my life will say, why are you not more attentive to this thing? Well, first of all, you are an adult. But also, I am in the middle of head-down creating something I really care about, that I really feel is important, that I want to exist in the world, that I want to outlive me. ROBERT: In a way it is a bit hard to describe that experience. But one of the ways of experiencing it is the way time passes. It passes in at least two dimensions. One is, you are right in the moment. And the second is, time does not exist. AUDREY: It is the experience of working on something that felt like a few minutes, and many hours have passed, and you look up at the clock and are shocked. ROBERT: That is absolutely the experience when you are really creating. These dimensions of time happen simultaneously, and that is quite common in the creative process. Involvement, Not Commitment AUDREY: Do you find that there is a sense of intensifying, like a sense of, I will do whatever it takes, the more you are in it? I know you do not love the word commitment, but to me there is something like, I am committed to what I want. ROBERT: Can I give you a better word? Involvement. AUDREY: Oh, that is right. You do talk about involvement. So my question is, as creators, when people start to get it and become involved in a project, what is it about the creative process that separates the people who say they want it, assess reality, and start moving in that direction, from the ones who do not? Because the tension wants release. That rubber band can go both ways. You can diminish the vision to alleviate the discomfort, or you can move toward it. So what is the difference between the people who stay involved, who seem to speed up, who seem to accelerate? ROBERT: I think I get your question. Let me begin by this answer. It is not attitudinal. It is about your skill. If you have created a lot, you do not have any kind of weird stuff going on. It is like another creation. It is another meal. So you make another creation. But if you have not done a lot of creating in this particular area, it is different. ROBERT: For example, funnily enough, even though I am a composer and have written a lot of music, I had never written songs. So about ten years ago I started to collaborate with Dennis Smith, who is the head of a band called Party on the Moon. I did a documentary on them, by the way. You can get that if you look up Party on the Moon, the film. That is one of the films I have made. His band plays for presidential inaugurations and celebrity weddings and things like that. He and I started to work together, and eventually we wrote a show together, a Christmas show. So I started writing songs with him. ROBERT: It was completely a new genre for me. I had never done it before. It is a very different way of working than writing film music. I did not know how to do it at first, but I know how to create. All of the years of my experience of creating let me learn how to do this new thing. It was not a big deal in a way, but it was an exciting learning experience, a new territory I had not really worked in before. If you are a really masterful musician, you may not have played certain music before, but you will know how to do it. Learners, Performance, and School AUDREY: That reminds me of something I love. You talk about the two kinds of people, and the other kind of person is a learner. Learners develop an ability to grow. The lesson is that you can learn. You are talking about Van Gogh here. He knew how to learn. It reminded me of my husband, who has been in sales for a long time and is picking up the sales in our little business to help it grow. He has been immersed in Brian Tracy recently and cannot stop talking about this one key theme from Brian’s life, that everything shifted for him when he realized he could learn everything. That was his life mantra from that point on. I can learn anything. And because he could learn anything, in the framework we are talking about today, that shifted him to being a creator all the time. ROBERT: See, that is the attitude. No. Now, I cannot learn everything, because I tried to learn Japanese and I could not. There are a lot of things I can learn. But I realize some things are beyond my learning at this point. AUDREY: For Brian Tracy, maybe it meant, I can learn everything that is important for my vision. That is a different statement. ROBERT: In that chapter there are a couple of things I talk about. One is that often when you are learning, you look terrible. So if your identity is involved, it is hard for people who have their focus on themselves to learn, because they do not want to look bad. The other thing I go into in that chapter is how traditional education is not about learning but about performing. AUDREY: I wanted to ask you about that. How do you feel our idea of creation and being creative has become so distorted to mean this little niche group? The kids in school who are talented. They are creative, I am not, and they make pictures. ROBERT: It is really quite interesting that the reward system, if you have not learned a thing but you get all the answers right, you get an A. If you have learned a lot but you do not get all the answers right, you get less than an A. So the reward system is not rewarding learning. We are rewarding performance and parroting. From that you get the wrong idea, that life is about performance. AUDREY: You say here, your vision and desire for the creation can far outshine your current level of ability to create what you want. I have had that experience over and over and over. ROBERT: When this is the case, you have a choice. You can either learn or you can quit. AUDREY: I think that principle is harder to grasp, largely because we have been a little indoctrinated about what creativity is. It can be harder when it does not seem like it is creative. Sure, I could take an art class. Sure, I could get a Japanese tutor. But how am I going to create this relationship with my child? How am I going to create a home that is more peaceful? What can I learn, instead of quitting, that can get me there? So I think that can be a stumbling block even for mothers who start to get it, who have a sense of the structural tension, who understand why it is important to create instead of react, and are starting to get a sense of what they would rather have or experience or create. What things have worked in that scenario? I Hate You, Mom ROBERT: One time our daughter, when she was young, had a friend who was very manipulative to her mom. So she came home, and her mom asked her to do something she did not want to do. Her name is Eve. Eve said, I hate you, Mom. ROBERT: Now, normally in the other household, that would be a point of manipulation, from the mom’s point of view, to say, oh no, you should love me. Rosalind said, well, it is up to you how you feel. I love you. You can feel whatever you want. In other words, you still need to do this thing. And that is the last time she tried that out. ROBERT: Because think about it. Rosalind was not trying to prove that she was a good mom. And she actually did think, it was not a manipulation on her part, she really did think Eve could think whatever she wanted. It was up to her what she thought, what her opinions were. She was not trying to control her opinions. Of course, she knew it was just a ploy anyway, but that is not even the point. The point is, the greater principle was, it is up to you what you think. We are not trying to control your thinking. We have suggestions, or recommendations, or ideas about what is more important and what is less important. But it is up to you whether you agree with it or not. How Creators Hold the Tension AUDREY: So how do the great creators we have pointed to a few times hold that tension? How do they maintain the vision? Is it as simple as being learners? ROBERT: No, it is none of that, because what motivates the learner is the creative process. It is not trying to be a learner. You end up having to be a learner because there is stuff you need to know to create stuff. One of the action steps is to learn. I want to do this. Current reality is, I do not know how to do this action step. So, learn how to do it. AUDREY: So how do they do it? Because they just want it badly enough? ROBERT: Look, it could be the simplest thing. I just really want that. The intensity of wanting it is irrelevant. It is a simple choice. AUDREY: But how do you stay there? Is that not difficult? How do you keep it going? ROBERT: Well, did you change your mind about wanting it? AUDREY: People do, right? All the time. They say they want things and then they do not go create them. I think it is mostly because they do not know how. ROBERT: But if you ask them the question, do you still want it, and it turns out they still want it, the fact is they still want it. They may not know how to create it, so they have given up. But their desire, their aspirations, went underground. AUDREY: What can they do to resist the temptation to give up? Start by Creating Little Things ROBERT: Learn how to create. And the way I am going to describe this is, start by creating little things. Just build up practice. My son has a company called Creator Tools, and there is a three-month course that I created that they offer on creating your life. It is like music lessons, really, about creating your life. You do a lesson every day, and then you practice that lesson during the day. ROBERT: At a certain point in the course, you make five-minute to fifteen-minute creations. This is not improvising. These are things. It is practicing structural tension. You have the idea, you have current reality, and you create the thing within five minutes, or ten minutes, or fifteen minutes. By doing that every day, you are building up stamina for the creative process, because you have gone through the entire cycle from beginning to end in that short period of time. So the more you do that, the more you internalize the creative process. They also work on two-week goals, then one-year goals, and then five-year goals. It is a cumulative process in terms of creating your life. But what you are doing is practicing creating, exactly the same way we would practice learning an instrument. AUDREY: I think I am starting to get it. So you gain the skill of creating. You become adept at this way of approaching life. And because you are good at it, it can apply in many areas of your life. ROBERT: It is an orientation. It is a way of approaching life. It is a different universe you are living in. It is not just a different process of approaching life. In that universe, in this creative orientation, you think about, what do I want to create? And when I talk about involvement, it is not about satisfaction. It is about involvement. So sometimes you are dissatisfied. Sometimes you are satisfied. Sometimes things work out, sometimes they do not. All of it becomes a learning experience. When it works out, and when it does not work out, you learn. Over time you begin to master your own creative process, and your life itself becomes the subject matter of the creative process. AUDREY: The way you put it is really starting to click. Because the different way is reactive. And you can spend your life being reactive, because you can react to your parents, react to your school assignments, react to your career choices. You can let the stimuli around you drive it. It is not that you are not making decisions, or that you are not an actor in your own life, because you are. You are doing things. You do have a life. And maybe you are surrounded by many things you end up liking, because you made some of those decisions in a way that was successful or according to what you would enjoy. The Past Is Over AUDREY: It reminds me of a woman I am acquainted with who was abused as a child. Well into her thirties and beyond, having married and having several children, this was still the most prominent part of her identity. She wore it around. She talked of it often. It was her identity. And it was difficult for the people around her to work with her in any productive way on an ongoing basis. She was constantly butting up against people who really wanted to create things with her, to be in a quality relationship with her. She was really in that reactive, problem-focused place. ROBERT: It is an underlying structure in which she could not resolve the experience she had. And so she was constantly trying to resolve it. Here is the thing. One very different way of understanding this situation is that, in reality, the past is over. And in reality, she will never resolve it. The resolution is, it is not resolvable. You are not going to catch the plane you missed. It is over. So trying to resolve it spills over into her current life. Understanding that it is not resolvable, and it is over, can help her regain being present in life, versus being trapped in the past. You Do Not Start by Convincing Yourself You Are a Creator AUDREY: What we want to do is move all the way from, those are the creative kids at school, to, I am a creator. It is part of my makeup. It is moving from, I can create more of this life, to this complete other thing. I am putting that framework behind me. I am accepting the fact that I do have the power to create my life. But what you help people do is move even beyond, I am the person doing the creating, to thinking in terms of creation. It is my orientation in the world, that I am not reacting. ROBERT: I know what you are saying, and I kind of know why you are saying it. The way it actually exists in my life is not that way at all. I just think about things I want to create. AUDREY: Exactly, but what I am saying is, moving someone to where you are, I think they might go through a process of, oh, I could create things. That would be the first epiphany. And the next one would be the life you are living, where it is second nature. ROBERT: It is the other way around. You start by, there is something you want to create. What is it? Is it a house, is it a room, is it a poem, is it a kitchen, is it a meal, is it a party? What do you want to create? And the cumulative experience over time of creating many things automatically puts you in the orientation of being a creator. It is not that I start by trying to convince myself I am a creator. I create a lot of things. AUDREY: It is actually just saying, I am going to learn how, I am going to create something, and over time that orientation just becomes part of how you approach the world. Translations from German ROBERT: Exactly. For example, my original writing looked like translations from German. I did not know how to write. AUDREY: You mean when writing your books? They were just clumsy, is what you are saying? ROBERT: I did not know how to write. If I wrote a letter or anything, it was a translation from German. And for example, I have talent for music. I never had to know. I always knew how music worked. There are a lot of technical things you have to learn in the world of music, but it came easily. Writing did not. So what I did was I practiced writing. I studied writers I liked. I analyzed, how did they do that? How did they get so much meaning out of a single little sentence? Looking at how they imply things. ROBERT: Sometimes before I would write something, I would read articles in The New Yorker, because the writing is so good. Get that in my world. So I worked at it. And finally I became pretty good as a writer. But it is because I did not have talent. I actually have a lot of skill. AUDREY: That is interesting, because going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, it sounds like you were doing with your writing the same kind of thing you were doing in the conservatory. Analyzing, breaking it down, looking at its components, getting to the root of it, and orienting yourself to good writing, immersing yourself in it so that it could start to come out in the mix. ROBERT: One time I heard an author talk about Hemingway. And he said, Hemingway knew every trick in the book. And I said, what book? I want to see that book. ROBERT: Right now I have got two book projects going. There was a play I wrote that premiered in Japan in December and then had a run in April. They just sent me the video of the play, which I am going to add the subtitles to, because it was in Japanese, of course. They are all written in English. There are so many different projects. I am doing a lot of songwriting these days. In less than a year we have written over thirty songs. And I do not think about it like, oh, I am a creator. More like, what is next? I do that even because I am the cook in the family. So I think about that when I make a meal. Do I know how to do it, or do I not? It is all the secondary choices to the primary choice. Advice for Mothers AUDREY: This has been a tremendous conversation. I have learned a lot. Two things before we finish up. One, what advice would you give to mothers who will be listening to this? And then, how can people follow you and engage with the projects you are working on? ROBERT: I do not know if I have any real advice for mothers, since I am not a mother. AUDREY: What would you want them to know about how a creator orientation can help them? ROBERT: Well, this is the thing. It really is a secondary choice to the primary choice. Realizing that a lot of times the frustration and so on are the secondary choices to a very altruistic motivation, which is that you love your kids and you really want to support them. And this thing we did with the idea of the deal. Our job is to teach you how to take care of yourself, and then we take care of you. So we get to choose when you do not know how. And more and more, you get to choose. AUDREY: I love that. It is a pretty good system. ROBERT: It is a good deal. It is a fair deal. Where to Find Robert AUDREY: So where can people find you? How can they engage with your work? ROBERT: There are many books. One book I like better than the one you have is called Creating Your Life. And then there is Identity, which I told you about. And www.robertfritz.com is our website. AUDREY: We will link that below. I also saw the plays and the songwriting, and conferences coming up on your site. There is a lot going on in your world. ROBERT: I have a YouTube channel called the Robert Fritz Creating Channel, where I have my films and songs and some other things. And then there is another channel called the Robert Fritz Structural Consulting Channel. In that channel I am doing consultations with clients. It is an entirely different way of understanding human motivation and change. AUDREY: They are fascinating. I have watched some of those. It is good stuff. Well, thank you again. I am so grateful that I got to meet you. This has been logged away in the back of my mind for a few years now, that I would love to talk with you and meet you and learn from you. Thank you for all you do, for what you have put out to bless other people like me and others. I am really, really grateful. ROBERT: Thank you. Closing Conversation: Music and Early Development ROBERT: One of the best developmental things you can do is teach kids music. There is a program called Music Together. When kids learn music, it affects their language skills, their math skills, and it also helps their social skills. What happens is they understand how to put things together relationally, in a certain sort of way. It is probably one of the best childhood developmental approaches. Maybe what you should do on your podcast is have one of the people from Music Together as a guest. They were the first and best program. There are some other programs now that do that too. They did it understanding very technical things, like certain modalities that are developmental and socially supportive. Modalities meaning scales, certain scale-type things, and certain rhythmic kinds of things. These are very musically technical things. But they understood exactly how to put them together, and they accelerate childhood development enormously. AUDREY: It is important to note that the parent or caretaker goes with the child to the class. ROBERT: Yes. The kid goes to a class. AUDREY: I do not know if you have ever read anything by Shinichi Suzuki or know anything about his work. One of the things that fascinated me the most, and he is such an incredible man in so many ways, is that he would not take on a child as a student until the mother had had lessons for at least six months. The mother had to take lessons, and she had to go home and practice in front of the child while the child listened and watched. He would only take on that student when the student asked, because they had been inspired by the mother’s example, and because it was something the mother had basic skills and understanding in, and something they could do together. ROBERT: Suzuki, of course, is Japanese. But he was in France learning music. He was amazing. You probably know this, but his basic question was, how do French children learn French? AUDREY: Yes. The huge breakthrough. How do children all over the world learn their native tongue? They absorb it in the ether. He was amazing. And those concerts he used to tour with, with all the little kids playing with him. He had such a generous heart. He was just a beautiful person. AUDREY: Thank you. That is a great resource that I will look into. All the things you have mentioned we will pull out of the podcast and link below. Many of our moms might want to do your creating class. I am going to go grab your other book, which I did not know about. Thank you so much. It has been a joy. ROBERT: Thank you so much.
EP 166 The thing you dread
You do hard things every day. You run a home, you carry other people's needs, you handle complicated things most people never see. You have so much more power than you realize. So why can one small, ordinary thing still fill you with dread? Having people over for dinner. A phone call. A visit you keep putting off. Something that should be simple, and somehow just is not. What's fascinating is that the dread is almost never about the thing itself. It is about the story you are telling yourself. Which means you do not have to keep dreading it. Once you can see the story clearly, you can change it, and show up as the you you want to be. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 166: Creator Orientation, A Panel Discussion Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Today I am joined in another wonderful discussion with Tracie Hyde, Lindsey Wright, and Cadie Hatch. We are preparing for our upcoming Mothers of Creation celebration, and it has been such a joy to meet, to discuss, and to read more resources together as we look at the kinds of things we will cover that day. We are also preparing the women who will attend in our online community, which is really wonderful. If you are interested in joining us, the link is in the description below. We have been returning to a few themes leading up to this event, and today the theme is creator and creation. We have talked about victim types and victimhood and why understanding them is helpful. But what is the reverse of that? The opposite of being a victim is to be a creator. So let us start simply. Will one of you give us a high level overview of Karpman’s Drama Triangle, who the players are, and what a problem orientation looks and feels like? The Drama Triangle and Its Opposite LINDSEY: I can do that. The victim orientation has three components. First the victim, who needs a persecutor, someone to blame the problem on, someone they believe is causing the problem. And then they need a rescuer, the knight in shining armor who comes to save the princess. Those three components collude together and feed on each other. Often we switch places within it. We start out as the victim and then become the persecutor. It is a fluid circumstance, this drama. On the other side, we have the opposite. The opposite of victim is creator. The opposite of persecutor is challenger. The creator sees the problem not as something to blame, not as the source of the bad feelings they are having, but as a challenge, something that can be overcome and that has something to teach them. And the opposite of the rescuer is the coach. The rescuer just takes away the consequences and smooths out the problem, but the victim does not get to learn anything. The coach does not solve the problem for you. They help the creator solve it themselves. They ask questions, they provide support and resources, but what they want is for the creator to have the experience of solving the problem and reaching the outcome they want. AUDREY: Thank you, Lindsey. That is so helpful. So we have two orientations, two ways of being. We will get into a lot of detail at the event and help you understand the nuances and why they matter. But fundamentally, to talk about being a creator, we have to juxtapose it with who a victim is and who a creator is, and the players in their life. We Choose Our Orientation AUDREY: Most of the time, in most of the circumstances we find ourselves in, we have a choice. But most of the time we organically show up as one or the other. Let me give you a good example. My husband has incredible health. Optimal health. And it is not just good genes and a good constitution, though I am sure he has that too. He has a way of being in the world about his physical body that is creator all the time. If he gets sick, his first thought is, I will probably be better tomorrow, or this is not a very big deal. He is not looking for who got him sick, or why this always happens to him. Even when he gets something small like a blemish, he sees it as a challenger. He tells himself, that is probably going to go away, I am going to figure out how to get rid of that. And then he always does. He is always looking to coaches to understand how to eat better, build stronger muscle, and live longer. He is currently reading three different books on how to be as healthy as he can be. When it comes to his health, he is in a creator orientation almost all the time. I think all of us have at least one area of life where being a creator comes so naturally it is like the air we breathe. Some people are like this with money. It may be hard for a lot of us to believe, but they have always had a positive reference point toward it. They expect it to come, they are comfortable with it, they spend it wisely and grow it, and there is always more than enough. But most of us also have a weak point, an area where we show up as a victim a lot, maybe in several areas. We talked about that in our last group discussion, about victims and victim types, and how we can show up as different types in different areas of our lives. When something happens to us, we determine the orientation we choose. Two different people have cancer. Two different people declare bankruptcy. Two different people get divorced. Two different people lose a child. And we will see radically different responses to the exact same circumstance. Often, when we are uncomfortable with something, we think that surely anybody in our situation would respond the same way. And the answer is almost always no. There is probably at least one person who would choose a creator response, who would look at themselves and their situation differently. So I would love to hear from each of you. Where in your life are you tempted to show up as a victim, and where do you show up as a creator? What are the thoughts and emotions around those two experiences? To go back to my husband, the other end of his spectrum was his pornography addiction. For years he was the victim of it. He could never figure it out and believed he would never overcome it. And then, with the right principles, tools, and orientation, he found sobriety. So we know that with the right tools we can conquer even the hardest circumstances of our lives. Give our listeners some reference points from your own lives. Tracie: The Dinner She Used to Dread TRACIE: This is one I can share. It is not a deep problem in my life, but it is something I have observed, where I can be in drama or choose to be a creator. It is having people over for dinner. It seems like that would be easy to do, but for many years it has been something I dreaded. We have a lot of people over, especially on Sundays. Family, extended family, friends. We can have up to seventeen or twenty people for dinner. My drama side looks at everything as a problem. The meat is not going to be done exactly right. The people coming may not really want to be there. What if someone feels left out, or no one talks to them. All these things that are out of my control, I worry about and see as problems. I dread Sunday as it comes around. And while people are there, I feel anxiety, so I am not able to minister to them or think deeply about what they need. That is the drama side. It has been so helpful to recognize that I have been in drama in this situation. Because if I can flip it into creator mode, then I can ask, why am I having all these people over? It is to create an experience we can have together. My drama type here is the perfectionist, where nothing can reach the goal, because it is just a nebulous idea I have never thought through clearly. It is never enough, and that is why I dread it. But in creator mode, I can have a vision of what I am actually creating. Maybe the food is not perfect. Maybe someone is dreading coming. How people interact is out of my control. But I can feel satisfied that I invited them and provided an experience where they can feel connection, where we can have time together as family and friends. When I focus on what I am creating, it becomes less about me and how I am being perceived. That anxiety leaves, and it becomes fulfilling instead of something I dread. I still lapse into the old pattern every so often, and I have to work through it and exercise that muscle to be a creator. But I can tell I am coming out of this dreaded rut I have been in, and I am finding a lot more joy in it. AUDREY: That is wonderful, Tracie. Those details help us see it. At the event we are going to give women a lot of specific tools to parse this out, and vision is a key component, which we will talk about on another podcast soon. One of the things you said several times was the focus off of yourself and onto others, and instead of reacting, taking ownership of your thinking. In our discussion about victims, one of the key words was responsibility. One of the biggest responsibilities we can take on is responsibility for the way we are thinking, and choosing to think differently can change everything. You are being intentional to recognize a pattern and to use the tools and principles you have been given, and it is turning what could be a bad experience into a really beautiful one. Can anyone else give an example of how this creator orientation is blessing your life and pulling you out of difficult circumstances? Cadie: Strong in One Place, Stuck in Another CADIE: I loved how you said your husband just has areas where creator orientation comes naturally. I do not know that I had ever thought about it that way before. I certainly know where my victim orientation comes naturally, but where does my creator come naturally? For me, one area is education. I do not tend to feel overwhelmed by it. I have educated my children at home all their lives and have helped with a charter school here locally. Education does not intimidate me to take on, even though for other people it can feel really intimidating and scary. It is neat to realize that is just a natural orientation toward creator that I have in that area. But my victim orientation almost goes hand in hand with it. It is difficult for me to make visits to people, to go and talk to them, because I get so caught up in what if I say something wrong, what if I hurt their feelings. It becomes a focus on my own inadequacies instead of on the positive outcome I want. In education I think, there are so many wonderful things we could do, let me tell you all of them. But with a visit I think, what if I say something wrong. In most of those circumstances I would say I am acting like the dummy who cannot quite figure out what to do or how to make it work. It is nice to recognize what that is, because there is an antidote for it, and I can move forward and have positive experiences. AUDREY: You can choose to be the creator of a new vision. And it is interesting, because I had not thought about it quite this way until you said it, Cadie. Recognizing your strengths, which is something we really focus on in the Academy, can give you the confidence to become a creator. I have to go make this visit, but I am an effective teacher and communicator, I have strength in this area, so how can I lean into that strength here and create a different outcome for myself and for others? Blazing a New Trail LINDSEY: What creators are really doing, in so many ways, is re-blazing a trail. We get into these habits of victim. A circumstance arises, and my automatic response is all the victim trails I have worn into my brain, all the reasons this is not going to work. So when I move into creator, I have to make a new trail in my mind for how this is going to go. And it is so empowering to realize that it can change. Thinking of the areas where being a creator comes naturally for me, I feel like I can learn anything, and I am not afraid of leadership positions. But those are not only natural strengths. I have also practiced. I have put myself in those situations and gotten the practice. So in the areas where I am more likely to show up as a victim, I can know that if I practice, this too can become a strength. AUDREY: Yes. We can rewire those neural pathways. We can use principles to change the way we fundamentally show up, and eventually notice that we are showing up differently, more naturally, more of the time. That is empowering to see in ourselves. What the Flip Feels Like AUDREY: As we finish up, one last question. In a few words, what is the difference in how you feel as a victim versus as a creator? What does it feel like inside when you are in a creator orientation? TRACIE: I will tell you what the flip feels like, because I have been noticing it over the last few weeks. When you recognize you are in a victim orientation and then you make the switch, to me it feels like an exhale. I see what is happening. I can choose to let it go, choose a different action, choose a different response. The pressure has been released, and I am free to move forward in so many positive ways. I am free to create what I want to create. I can breathe now. AUDREY: I love that. LINDSEY: I would totally agree. Mine is slightly different but very similar. I feel like chains have just dropped off and now I can move again. I had felt very stuck, very entrenched in negativity, and now it is gone. I can move, and it feels fantastic. It is very liberating. AUDREY: I love that. CADIE: For me it is a closed heart versus an open heart. I feel like my heart opens up when I move into creator mode. AUDREY: I love that. I see all of those emotions in myself and others, a sense of new opportunity and new hope. I feel a lot of new hope. The focus comes off of myself, and I can focus on what actually matters instead of on me. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: For those and many other reasons, it is so worth it to do the work to understand this. It is one of those things that does not feel urgent. If you are familiar with Covey’s quadrants in The 7 Habits, it is in the important but not urgent category. It is very important, but unless we are in a state of emergency, we feel like we can put it off. But making it a priority can have far more impact than you would ever imagine. When our speaking team first started working on our own problem stories, it was so interesting. Several of us said, this is my problem story, and I do not really see a way out right now. I do not know if I could get out of this. That is so often how it feels when we are in confusion, overwhelm, and frustration in an area of our life. And this is an incredible tool to get out of that and to be liberated. Thank you all so much for joining me today. It was a joy to talk about creator orientation and why it is so empowering. If you feel so inclined, keep listening to these podcasts around these themes and share them with a friend. And we would love to meet you in person at our fall event in the beautiful mountains of Utah. There is information about that below in the description. Thanks for joining us, and we will see you next time.
EP 165 A voice gave him a date.
In Auschwitz, a man told Viktor Frankl about a dream. A voice had said he could ask one question, so he asked the only one that mattered: when would the war be over for him. Not for everyone. For him. The voice gave him a date. He believed it completely. I have not been able to stop thinking about what happened to him on that date. It changed how I understand what we are really doing when we call ourselves creators. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th Man's Search for Meaning - Viktor Frankl Viktor Frankl Institute Vienna - logotherapy and the life of Viktor Frankl The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic) - David Emerald The Gulag Archipelago - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 165: Viktor Frankl Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Thank you for joining me today. I'm excited to talk to you about Viktor Frankl, a personal hero of mine. Just imagine that you're a Jew in Vienna during World War II. You've fallen in love with the woman of your dreams and you want to be married, but the law has just changed, and you are the very last Jewish couple in Vienna awarded the privilege of marrying. Not long after, your beautiful wife becomes pregnant, but no Jews are allowed to have children. And so she is forced to abort it. AUDREY: These were some of the things Viktor Frankl went through. I'm not going to go through every detail of his life, but he's worth looking up and learning all about. Today I want to do something really special with him and his experiences. AUDREY: We can see components of the Mission Driven Life in these stories and events and excerpts from his life. He had that love of God. He lived according to principle. He loved truth and talked about it often. He took good care of himself, loved others, loved humanity, made a huge impact in the world, heard the call, adopted meaning in his life, and shared logotherapy with the world. So definitely a mission driven life worth celebrating, and an incredible man who I greatly admire. Narrowing the Focus AUDREY: But for today, I want to focus our conversation a little more narrowly. I'm going to tell you a bit about his life leading up to World War II, and then I'm going to take you into his most famous book, Man's Search for Meaning. If you have not read this book, you really, really need to. The first half is recollections and excerpts from his experiences in the concentration camp. Nothing vulgar or offensive, but very thought provoking. He's trying to look at it from a psychological point of view, through the experiences of the prisoner. The second half is about his logotherapy, which is a fascinating read. AUDREY: The reason we're going into that book is to do something very unique. This fall, as I've mentioned on the podcast before, we're going to gather in the beautiful mountains of Utah and spend a day at our MDM celebration working through our theme for this year, Mothers of Creation. We're going to talk about how we show up as victims in the world, in our own drama, how we sometimes create it for ourselves or react to circumstances outside our control. We build these problem stories. We're going to break those apart. We're going to learn how to disengage. We're going to talk about what creation means and what it means to be a creator. And then we're going to teach you how to reframe it, how to turn it into new purpose and vision for your life, and how to create a creator statement. AUDREY: There's a community in the MDM Academy specifically for this event that women are welcome into as soon as they sign up, and that's been going well. Our brilliant Lindsey Wright has been running trainings in there. We did the first one together, and they're recorded. It's been a beautiful experience to watch women start to learn these ideas and prepare for this day-long event. So with all of that in mind, I want to show you three core concepts we're talking about on the podcast right now, and how they come to life in Viktor Frankl's book. Drama and victimhood and victim roles. Creation and creators. And vision, and why vision matters so much and how it's incorporated into these other aspects of our lives. A Little About Viktor Frankl AUDREY: He was born in 1905 in Vienna, the middle child in a Jewish family. When he was little, World War I hit, and it hit his family hard, like it did so many others. They were in abject poverty. They struggled to survive. And what's fascinating about Viktor is that by the age of three, he knew he wanted to be a doctor. Isn't that something? He went along that vein, thinking and learning in terms of what it means to make people whole, what it means to heal them. By the time he got into high school, he was actively studying psychology and philosophy, some in school and some out of it. So it might not surprise you that at age sixteen, he gave a speech in school entitled On the Meaning of Life. These ideas were already part of his message, his mission to the world. He felt it at a very early age, and that idea of meaning and purpose never left him. It was a central theme in his life. AUDREY: As a teenager, he also wrote to Freud. I don't know that they exchanged many letters, but Freud remembered him and remembered the correspondence when they met a few years later. He later disagreed with Freud and left off following him, but always deeply respected him. He then went on to medical school. During that time, he started to notice a disturbing trend. As exams approached, there was always a percentage of high school students every year who would end up taking their own lives, either leading up to the exams or after they received their scores, because these were so vital. They would literally determine the trajectory of that student's life. And they were young, and didn't always have the foresight to understand that things can change, that life could be different and better. So they became very fatalistic. He noticed this. He was disturbed by it. He decided to do something about it. He started treating these students with therapies and other modalities, and the first year he did this, there were no suicides. It was the first time in a long time that had been the case, and that was very rewarding for him. AUDREY: So he continued on. He finished school, and by the age of twenty-eight or twenty-nine, in 1933, he was already the head of the Vienna Psychiatric Hospital for female suicide prevention. He had seen the need, he had reached out, and as he did that, he really started to make a difference in this area. He learned a lot in the process. He went on and took other top positions. And by the time World War II was approaching, it hit Vienna earlier than it did the United States. Even as it approached, he could see that as a Jew he was in a lot of trouble. There were already more laws and discriminations put in place. So he applied for a visa to the United States. It was done by lottery, so he just had to wait it out. His number came up, and he was actually awarded a visa to go to the United States. The Stone on the Floor AUDREY: But he knew his family didn't qualify. He would be the only one going, leaving his family behind. He didn't know what he should do. So he decided to leave the decision up to a power higher than himself. He prayed and waited for some kind of sign. One day he was at home and found a little stone on the floor. When he lifted it up, he realized it was a piece of a Ten Commandments tablet that had been shattered when a synagogue was bombed, and his father had brought it home. It was a section of the honor your father and mother commandment. He saw that as divine intervention, and that he needed to stay with his family. So he decided to do that, which is why he was still there when the war reached him. AUDREY: He met his wife, Tilly. They fell in love. She was an incredible woman of compassion and intelligence, and they connected very deeply. As I said earlier, they were the last couple awarded the opportunity to marry, in 1941. In 1942 she became pregnant, and it was a forced abortion, because if a Jewish couple was known to be pregnant, they would be sent immediately to the concentration camps. AUDREY: So she had that forced abortion. Not long after, in 1942 or maybe 1943, the family was transferred to a milder concentration camp. At the beginning they were together. Frankl's father was old and very sick. Frankl was able to smuggle some morphine into the camp and give it to his father just before he passed away, and he was very grateful he could do that. Through a series of complications, he wound up in Auschwitz. His wife was going to follow him there. She ended up at Bergen-Belsen, where she was, I believe, almost immediately killed. He didn't know that at the time. And so he served out his time in Auschwitz until the war ended. Into the Book AUDREY: That brings us to this book. After the war, he dictated it in just nine days. He first published it anonymously, because he didn't feel he should take credit for it. He didn't know it would do any good or make any difference. He just felt it needed to be said. And it had a huge impact. It became his most famous work and has sold more than twelve million copies in print worldwide. So a very, very important work. AUDREY: I'm going to take you on a journey, from victim to creator to having vision, through some different excerpts. He says here: "The camp inmate was frightened of making decisions and of taking any sort of initiative whatsoever. This was the result of a strong feeling that fate was one's master, and that one must not try to influence it in any way, but instead let it take its own course. The prisoner would have preferred to let fate make the choice for him. This escape from commitment was most apparent when a prisoner had to make the decision for or against an escape attempt." AUDREY: That phrase, escape from commitment, is so fascinating. Of course, we know these are true victims. They really are victims. They are in a concentration camp being tortured, not having anything to eat, doing hard labor every day. They are, in the truest sense of the word, complete victims. And yet there is this space Frankl creates for us, where he helps us understand that even when you are genuinely a victim, victimhood is a mindset. It's a choice. It's a choice we can choose out of. That's what we're talking about this summer and this fall. We all have hard things happening to us. We all feel like victims to someone else's choices, to life circumstances, to illnesses or disabilities we can't change, to financial circumstances. We all could act the victim. We all could fall into victimhood. We all could run away from responsibility and commitment, just like the prisoners in the camps wanted to. He says: "That which was ultimately responsible for the state of the prisoner's inner self was not so much the enumerated psychological causes as it was the result of a free decision." AUDREY: Let me help you understand that again. The ultimate responsibility for the state of the prisoner's inner self. He couldn't control the circumstances around him at all. One hundred percent, other people were in control. But he makes this distinction: we may be a victim externally, but we don't have to be a victim internally. We don't have to choose it. That inner state is a choice. Like he says here: "Psychological observations of the prisoners have shown that only the men who allowed their inner hold on their moral and spiritual selves to subside eventually fell victim to the camp's degenerating influences. The question now arises, what could or should have constituted this inner hold?" AUDREY: So how do they go about taking hold of their inner selves, being true victims but not being in drama, not being in victimhood, choosing their inner state? He also talks about a man who let himself decline because he could not see any future goal, and found himself occupied with retrospective thoughts. That's our first hint into how we choose not to think or act like a victim. AUDREY: He shares something else here, probably the most famous quote from the book, if not the most famous. He says: "We can answer these questions from experience as well as on principle. The experiences of camp life show that man does have a choice of action. There were enough examples, often of a heroic nature, which proved that apathy could be overcome, irritability suppressed. Man can preserve a vestige of spiritual freedom, of independence of mind, even in such terrible conditions of psychic and physical stress." AUDREY: What's amazing about this is that only someone like Frankl could say it definitively, because he was there, because he experienced it, because he saw it firsthand. He has the power and the ability to tell all of us: no one has an excuse. If you will learn to recognize when you are thinking like a victim, feeling like a victim, acting like a victim in your life, when you are responding to life without choice, without responsibility, then you can make a change. You can make a shift. He goes on: "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms, to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." AUDREY: So he's saying yes, we sometimes are victims. Sometimes genuinely victims, sometimes just making up the drama in our own minds. I have done that millions of times. But even when we're genuinely victims, we can choose our own way. We can choose our attitude and our response to life. We can choose to hold on to the inner freedom, which is our God-given gift. Creators: The Composer AUDREY: I want to tell you this story, because I felt it was fascinating, one of the most interesting stories to me in this entire book. As we move from being victims, let's talk about some stories of being creators in our own lives. The opposite of victim is creator. So we want to think and act like creators. How do we do that? What does that mean? David Emerald said, we cannot not create. So we are always creating. We are actually creators, even when we're thinking and talking and behaving like victims. We're creating the thing we don't want, because we are creators. And the last thing we'll talk about is vision. Vision anchors us to something we want. Because if we don't know what we want, and we're thinking like victims, we will create the wrong thing. Here's a really powerful example of that. "I once had a dramatic demonstration of the close link between the loss of faith in the future and this dangerous giving up. F, my senior block warden, a fairly well-known composer and librettist, confided in me one day. He said, 'I would like to tell you something, doctor. I have had a strange dream. A voice told me that I could wish for something, that I should only say what I wanted to know, and all my questions would be answered. What do you think I asked? That I should like to know when the war would be over for me. You know what I mean, doctor. For me. I wanted to know when we, when our camp, would be liberated and our sufferings come to an end.'" "'And when did you have this dream?' I asked. 'In February 1945,' he answered. It was then the beginning of March. 'What did your dream voice answer?' Furtively he whispered to me, 'March 30th.'" AUDREY: For those of you who know the timeline of World War II, that will be very insightful. "When F told me about his dream, he was still full of hope and convinced that the voice of his dream would be right. But as the promised day drew nearer, the war news which reached our camp made it appear very unlikely that we would be free on the promised date. On March 29th, F suddenly became ill and ran a high temperature. On March 30th, the day his prophecy had told him that the war and suffering would be over for him, he became delirious and lost consciousness. On March 31st, he was dead. To all outward appearances, he had died of typhus." AUDREY: He was a creator who could not not create. And he created his own death by believing so furtively in what this dream voice had told him. It's so amazing to me, the power of our minds to create. So we are creators, and we are responsible for our inner state. He says: "In spite of all the enforced physical and mental primitiveness of the life in a concentration camp, it was possible for spiritual life to deepen. Sensitive people who were used to a rich intellectual life may have suffered much pain, but the damage to their inner selves was less. They were able to retreat from their terrible surroundings to a life of inner riches and spiritual freedom. Only in this way can one explain the apparent paradox that some prisoners of a less hardy makeup often seemed to survive camp life better than those of a robust nature." Vision AUDREY: This leads us from the creator piece, where we know we are responsible for our responses to life, that we can choose the inner state regardless of external circumstances, that we are responsible for who we are inside, how we feel, and the spiritual and intellectual life we develop, which is protective in nature. This is so profound: that a rich spiritual and intellectual life was physically protective as well. And then he moves into vision. That's the third piece that's so vital to getting out of victimhood, to getting over the problem stories we tell ourselves, and to learning how to truly solve the significant problems of our lives with these key principles. He shares this experience: "Occasionally I looked at the sky, where the stars were fading and the pink light of the morning was beginning to spread behind a dark bank of clouds. But my mind clung to my wife's image, imagining it with an uncanny acuteness. I heard her answering me, saw her smile, her frank and encouraging look. Real or not, her look was then more luminous than the sun which was beginning to rise. A thought transfixed me. For the first time in my life I saw the truth as it is set into song by so many poets, proclaimed as the final wisdom by so many thinkers. The truth that love is the ultimate and the highest goal to which man can aspire." AUDREY: He goes on to talk about the intensification of the inner life by holding on to a vision. He sculpted his mind, he trained his mind to think about what he wanted to think, not in a reactionary way to his external circumstances. He says: "My mind still clung to the image of my wife. I did not know whether she was alive or dead, but there was no need for me to know. Nothing could touch the strength of my love, my thoughts, and the image of my beloved. Had I known that my wife was dead, I think that I would still have given myself, undisturbed by that knowledge, to the contemplation of her image, and that my mental conversation with her would have been just as vivid and just as satisfying." AUDREY: So he imagines his wife. He spends time with her. He talks with her in his mind. They have these beautiful conversations, and it's an emotional, spiritual, mental, and intellectual lifeline for him. It keeps him alive, very literally, and it keeps him from falling into victimhood, from being degraded by camp circumstances the way so many prisoners were. In The Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn talks about this same transformation: that some prisoners, if they chose the higher road, if they used their minds to concentrate and focus on new purpose and a new vision for their life, it not only saved them in the moment, it literally kept them alive and helped them move on in their lives. AUDREY: He says he would keep talking to his wife. And one day he was in the cold, and his thoughts had become degraded again. He was thinking about how hungry he was, imagining the meal he was going to eat. And then he says: "I became disgusted with the state of affairs which compelled me daily and hourly to think of only such trivial things. I forced my thoughts to turn to another subject. Suddenly I saw myself standing on the platform of a well-lit, warm, and pleasant lecture room. In front of me sat an attentive audience on comfortable, upholstered seats. I was giving a lecture on the psychology of the concentration camp. All that oppressed me at that moment became objective, seen and described from the remote viewpoint of science. By this method I succeeded somehow in rising above the situation, above the sufferings of the moment, and I observed them as if they were already of the past. Both I and my troubles became the object of an interesting psychological study undertaken by myself." AUDREY: That vision, communing with his wife and loving her every day, and then envisioning a future goal for himself. He had been writing a book that was confiscated when he was put in the camp. Arriving home and writing that book, lecturing about it, teaching people the things about life purpose he had discovered and the importance of meaning in life, became the meaning of his life and the purpose of staying alive in the camp. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: So these concepts, these fundamental principles of building up our reserves, of being true creators in our own lives, of seeing where we're falling victim, of identifying those victim types we've talked about and recognizing where we're doing that, of seeing that we're in drama and deciding to be creators instead, and of latching on to a vision bigger than ourselves, letting that meaning and purpose drive us into the future and out of drama into a creator mindset. That is really the key. And Viktor Frankl's book and his experiences in the concentration camp perfectly encapsulate that. AUDREY: I am so grateful you've joined me today to talk about these things. If you're interested in these topics and want to learn more, keep listening to the podcast, and consider joining us this fall. As soon as you sign up, you'll be given access to the MDM Academy pod that's working on all of these concepts leading up to the event. We've got trainings coming up that you can be part of, where you can engage with Lindsey. And then we'll meet you that great day at the end of September and spend the day together. The links are in the description, and we would love to have you join us. AUDREY: In the meantime, I hope this information has been helpful and inspiring to you. I hope you will see, in greater and greater clarity, how principles can rescue you from the difficult problems you are in. They can liberate you and make you free, and help you get back on the path to where you truly want to go. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I will see you next time.
EP 164 Where "I am a creator" actually came from
Thirty years ago, a man sat down for his morning quiet time in the middle of the hardest season of his life. His father had died far too young. He and his wife had been trying to start a family, and he had just learned he was infertile. His marriage was ending. And in that prayerful space, he said, "Okay, God, I'm ready to surrender my victim stance in the world. But I need to know: what's the opposite of victim?" The word came immediately. Creator. That man was David Emerald, author of The Power of TED. If you've been through the academy, you know this book. It's one of the core texts we study together, and I've heard story after story from women whose lives changed because of it. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic) - David Emerald The Karpman Drama Triangle - Dr. Stephen Karpman AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 164: David Emerald & The Power of TED Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher. If this podcast is helpful for you, please share it, like it, pass it along, and leave a review, so we can share the message of mission and principles with everyone who needs it. I feel privileged and honored to have David Emerald with us today. This is a long awaited conversation. I’ve talked to people for years about how someday I was going to have a conversation with David Emerald about The Power of TED. This is that day, so I am ecstatic. For those of you who have engaged with the work or been in any of the academies, you know that The Power of TED is a core book that we spend a lot of time in to learn better self-management and self-leadership skills. I’ve heard story after story about its impact. If you listened to Carolyn’s interview that came out recently, one of the most important things that happened to her in the program was learning this book and practicing its principles. Today, David is going to tell us more of the backstory, so I’m excited for that. AUDREY: A little bit about him. His full name, which I didn’t know until recently, is David Emerald Womeldorff. He’s the creator in chief of the Center for the Empowerment Dynamic and founder of the Bainbridge Leadership Center in Washington. His passion and work is in supporting individuals, teams, and organizations in leading and working from an outcome-focused and passion-powered orientation. His principles and frameworks are based on his decades of study, observation, and application in collaboration with a wide range of individuals and organizations. His pen name is David Emerald, and with a last name like Rindlisbacher, I can understand why he did that. He’s the author of the best-selling The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic), a teaching story about self-leadership, and 3 Vital Questions: Transforming Workplace Drama, which is also phenomenal, by the way. I’ve studied that one quite a bit. It’s an organizationally focused teaching story that draws on his more than 30 years of experience in leadership development, change leadership, and employee management. David’s books are sold worldwide. David, where should I send people to find your work? DAVID: If you go to powerofted.com, where you’ll end up is at theempowermentdynamic.com. AUDREY: Perfect. That’s where you’ll find all of his work. And I’ll talk more later about some of the other ways I’ve engaged with David and his wife, Donna. They have some other incredible programs. But to get the conversation started, David, can you give us some of your backstory? What were you doing professionally before all this authorship came up, and what did you learn there? The Backstory DAVID: The backstory is that prior to the epiphany that eventually led to The Power of TED, and I’ll certainly share that whole story, I was living in Dayton, Ohio, working in corporate America, focused on management and organization development. I had a communication background. I was introduced to Robert Fritz’s work and was engaged in a course being run at a hospital based on his creating technologies, and I became friends with a gentleman named Bob Anderson, who’s the founder of The Leadership Circle. A number of things just came together in my life. At the time, my wife and I were trying to start a family, and that wasn’t working. And I’m pausing on that, because a big part of the backstory is that the things the character David faces in the story are autobiographical. DAVID: In about an 18 month period, three things happened in my life that were quite formative. One was that my dad, who I had a very healthy relationship with, passed away at much too young an age. He was in his early 60s. My wife at the time and I were trying to start a family, and I was declared medically infertile. She was quite introverted, and for whatever reasons, she chose not to have us explore any other options. So that marriage failed. As the marriage was coming apart, we were engaged in some couples therapy and doing quite a bit of work, and as things continued she decided to withdraw from that. It was during that period of time that I learned about the Karpman drama triangle and its roles of victim, persecutor, and rescuer. The Epiphany: What Is the Opposite of Victim? DAVID: I had been working on my own with this therapist for about three months. One morning I was sitting at my desk engaged in what I call my morning quiet time, which has always been some combination of prayer, meditation, and journaling. I was in that contemplative, prayerful space. I remember having my eyes closed, and I just remember saying to the God of my understanding, “Okay, God, I’m ready to surrender my victim stance in the world, but I need to know: what’s the opposite of victim?” And I’ve got to tell you, Audrey, immediately the word creator came. It was so stark that my eyes flew open, and I thought, I don’t know what I expected, but I didn’t expect that. I can’t say that I heard a voice, but the experience was such that I could understand someone saying they had an experience like that and heard a voice. I wish I could say, like Paul on the road to Damascus, that my life was forever changed. That was not the case. It was a personal epiphany. And I’m now talking about a good 30 years ago, around 1990 or 1991. AUDREY: Just as an aside, when was the book first published? DAVID: In 2005, actually 2006. AUDREY: So about a 15 year period. Wow. DAVID: There was about a 10 year period where I would think about it from time to time, and then it would fade into the background and life would go on. I continued in the corporate world in executive and leadership development and was involved in The Leadership Circle that I mentioned earlier, a very powerful feedback process, doing a lot of work with The Leadership Circle at the University of Notre Dame in their executive programs. AUDREY: What kind of work did The Leadership Circle do? DAVID: It’s what’s called a 360 degree feedback tool. If you think about an organization chart, it’s 360 degree in the sense of getting feedback from one’s boss, one’s peers, one’s direct reports, perhaps clients, around the perceptions they have of one’s leadership. AUDREY: And you’re facilitating that feedback loop. DAVID: Exactly. It’s a coaching conversation. The Leadership Circle at the time also had a couple of leadership workshops that I facilitated and co-facilitated. And the ways of thinking that are captured in The Power of TED and in 3 Vital Questions, I owe a lot to Bob Anderson and the framing of what I call the victim and creator orientations, or the problem and outcome orientations. So you asked earlier what prepared me for this work. All of those elements were in there, and they came together in the personal epiphany I just shared. AUDREY: Would you say that insight, or revelation, or epiphany changed your behavior at all? Made you see the world differently? Was it having any kind of personal impact before you built a model for others? DAVID: Yes and no. The yes is that because of the other work I was doing, in The Leadership Circle we would talk about a reactive orientation versus a creative orientation. That creative orientation, which evolved in my work into a creator orientation, certainly impacted me. And I have long been mission driven in my own work. From that work I crafted my own mission statement, which has not changed much since the early nineties. I can call it up on my screen. AUDREY: I would love to hear it. And why did you call it a mission statement? DAVID: Because it’s what I’m called to do. It’s certainly purposeful, but it felt more like a mission statement than a purpose statement. Here it is: I am called to support and facilitate individuals, teams, and organizations in consciously shifting to a co-creative, vision focused, and passion motivated orientation for their lives and livelihoods. This is my lifelong ministry of service to humankind. I am a partner in creation with God. As spirit works in and through me, I serve as a channel of God’s abundance, love, wisdom, and power to touch, heal, and transform my own and others’ lives and ways of being in the world. AUDREY: Wow. That is beautiful. DAVID: That’s been on my wall through multiple moves. It really has been my North Star in terms of all the work. And that existed before I had a name for TED, before I had alternatives to the persecutor and the rescuer. Meeting Donna and the Conversation at Notre Dame DAVID: Fast forward about 10 years. I was doing a lot of work with The Leadership Circle and some international work with another consulting company. I was on my own, so I could live anywhere. In 2003, I was attending a workshop as a participant at a place called the Whidbey Institute and met Donna Zajonc. We really connected around a shared interest in leadership. She was coming out of public leadership; she had been an elected official in the Oregon legislature. In 2004, because I could live anywhere, I ended up moving to the Pacific Northwest as Donna and I were starting to date and our relationship was growing. I initially moved to Whidbey; we live on Bainbridge Island now. The reason the move is germane to the story is that as I was unpacking, I came across one of the journals where I’d played around with an alternative triangle to the drama triangle and its dynamics between victim, persecutor, and rescuer. So I had that fresh in mind. DAVID: I was at Notre Dame getting ready to do a debrief around a Leadership Circle profile. A gentleman came in: six foot five, blond hair, blue eyed, not an ounce of fat on his body. The reason I share that is that within minutes I knew he was third generation military, had led a platoon in the first Gulf War, and had been in the private sector for about three years. We get into our conversation. The night before, they had done some work with an art therapist, and he had his journal with him. Another very important part of his persona: he was very traditional and fundamental in his Christian belief. The reason that’s relevant is that he opens his journal, and he’s got little stick figure pictures: two military oriented pictures, then a Bible, and in the middle he had VS, for versus. It was the military versus his faith. I said, “Tell me about the versus.” He said, “I’m really struggling as a leader in the private sector around how to deal with conflict.” I said, “When you were leading a platoon, how did you deal with conflict?” He said, “In the military, it’s pretty simple. You contain, control, and move off to the side.” I said, “That probably doesn’t work too well in organizational life.” He said, “No. And people come into my office and they’re just such victims.” I said, “That triggered something for you.” Because the orientations come out of The Leadership Circle work, I could do a really quick review of that with him. Then I said, “Let me share something related to this,” and I shared the drama triangle, which for him at that point, as it was for me when I first learned it, was what I call in the book a blinding flash of the obvious. He said, “That’s it. That’s what I experience.” And I said, “As you shift your focus to more of a creative orientation, or what I call in this work a creator orientation, it makes possible a different set of relationship roles and dynamics.” At the time, creator had always been the antidote or the opposite of victim. The label I had at the time for what became challenger was teacher: what has this come into my life to cause me to learn and develop? And what became coach, the antidote to the role of rescuer, was servant. DAVID: We got into this deep conversation, just got into a flow state, and we came toward the end of our 90 minutes together. I just remember sitting there, Audrey. I looked at him, and I looked at the whiteboard, and I looked back at him, and given his faith, I said, “Creator, teacher, servant. Can you think of three words to better describe the life of Christ?” And he said, “Oh. I got it.” AUDREY: Wow. That’s so beautiful. DAVID: The next morning I was at the little South Bend, Indiana airport, and I called Donna. Donna is a longtime master certified professional coach, and she said, “How did your coaching sessions go?” I said, “Well, I had one that was pretty remarkable last night,” and I told her the story. And I got silence. This is back in the Verizon advertising days of “Can you hear me now?” I looked at the full bars and said, “Are you still there?” She said, “Yes. Is that original?” I said, “No, the drama triangle has been around since the 1960s.” She said, “No, the other triangle.” I said, “Well, yes, I guess it’s just something I’ve thought about off and on for years.” And she said, “You have got to write that down. That could be so useful to other people.” TED Gets a Name and Becomes a Story DAVID: So I came back, and we were out for a walk one evening asking, what am I going to call this alternative triangle? In the course of that conversation we hit upon the empowerment dynamic. The next morning, we were sitting doing our quiet time, and my monkey mind was going, empowerment dynamic, empowerment dynamic, T-E-D. And I went, huh. It’s got a name. It came out of the quiet time, and I told Donna. DAVID: The day after TED showed up, I walked into Donna’s house. Donna was working on a book out of her public leadership experience and was on the phone with a publishing consultant she had been working with named Cece. Donna said, “Oh, Cece, David’s model has a name.” Cece said, “What is it?” “It’s TED, the empowerment dynamic.” And Cece said, “Hand David the phone.” So Donna handed me the phone, and Cece, who has this wonderful Texas accent, said, “Okay, dear, let me tell you what you’ve done.” I said, “What have I done?” She said, “You have anthropomorphized the concept. Now I want you to write a story.” And I was like, “You want me to what?” DAVID: That teed up playing around with how I could approach this as a story, because I knew there had to be the models and the visuals. The apartment I was renting overlooked a beach down a bluff, and one morning Donna came out of quiet time and said, “What if the conversation takes place on the beach, and Ted etches the models in the sand?” And I was like, where did that come from? All the inspiration coming. DAVID: I know one of the other questions you’re curious about is how the other characters evolved. I had the idea of a conversation taking place on the beach, and I knew what the models would be: the orientations, the triangles, dynamic tension, creating outcomes. So I put together a few friendly focus groups, three of them in total, and just shared the ideas on flip charts. A couple of things happened. In the first little focus group, one of the participants said, “There’s no female here.” And I said, “You’re right. There needs to be a female presence.” And Sophia, the wise woman, was born out of that. The other thing that was a bit of a surprise to me is that there was some pushback on both teacher and servant. For some people it was, “I’ve been blessed to have some really great teachers, and I’ve had some really terrible teachers.” And the word servant, even though it was well intended, carried that whole sense of servitude, so it was challenged. What emerged out of that was challenger as the antidote to persecutor, and coach as the antidote to the rescuer. DAVID: Then there were some magical moments in the writing of the book itself, which went pretty quickly, about six months, because I was still doing quite a bit of organizational work. I truly feel I was guided. I’ll give you one instance that has always stuck in my mind. There’s a scene where Sophia comes into the story on the second day of David and Ted’s conversations. She comes running up the beach, and she has a headband on her wrist. She wasn’t wearing the headband, and I wondered, why does she have a headband on her wrist? I just let it be there as the story was emerging, and of course I was being edited by Cece as I went along. Then, when I got to the chapter on dynamic tension, which Robert Fritz calls structural or creative tension, and I always use a rubber band to illustrate the tension, she takes the headband off her wrist to illustrate the concept of dynamic tension. There were just magical moments along the way. AUDREY: That is incredible. You know, we talk a lot about the word servant, especially in the Mission Driven Mom program: that we are becoming servant leaders. In my book, The Mission Driven Life, there are seven laws of life mission, the first four preparatory, where you work on yourself, and then you go lead in your communities. Those preparatory laws are loving God, loving yourself, loving truth, and loving humanity, and learning to love humanity is becoming a servant leader. That’s the subtitle of that chapter. So we’ve talked a lot about servant leadership, and I have several books on it. There’s a book, you’ve probably heard of it, I can’t remember the author’s name, called The Servant. He taught servant leadership all over the world, and he talked about the same kind of thing: that he would get pushback on the word servant. He tells the story of a man in a life crisis who goes into a monastery for a week and learns valuable things about what it means to be a true servant leader and what leadership should really look like. There’s a lot of crossover. He talks about the marriage of the head and the heart, and you do too. It’s fascinating to see you both arriving at some of those common principles and ideas. DAVID: Very much aligned. I have no issue with the term servant. And one of the things you’ve said a couple of times that I want to explicitly call out in a positive sense is that The Power of TED is written as a fable on self-leadership, and that was done purposefully. I’ve got to tell you, Audrey, I wrote the book because I needed to write the book, and I felt called to write the book. It was consistent with the mission statement I shared with you. And it was almost a hobby, because I was doing so much travel and so much work in organizational leadership. It’s a self-published book, and it grew a baby step at a time. I remember Donna and I were traveling to Vietnam to visit her oldest daughter, who was trekking around Southeast Asia, and we were changing planes in Seoul, South Korea. I checked on Amazon and said, “Donna, somebody bought the book.” AUDREY: As a self-published author, I totally get that moment. From Self-Published Book to Worldwide Community DAVID: Then there were several meetings and conversations along the way, and what started to happen is that organizations found out about the book. A group in Dallas, Texas called the Stagen Leadership Academy started to adopt it. Everybody who goes through their leadership programs gets a copy of the book, kind of like what you’re doing. It just really took off, and 20 years later it’s still selling very well on Amazon and other places. I feel eternally blessed to be doing this work, and it’s been my full-time work for a good 10 years now. I used to do quite a few workshops pre-pandemic. Now my primary focus is on building what we call our community of practice, and with the bringing online in 2019 of 3 Vital Questions, which is an organizationally based fable, we have about 125 certified trainers in nine countries now, all virtual. That’s really my focus. DAVID: Where we are now is that we have a couple of outcome statements related to the Center for the Empowerment Dynamic. Our really big, audacious one is that the Center for the Empowerment Dynamic has the infrastructure, the people, and the financial resources to abundantly serve the next seven generations. The notion of seven generations comes out of indigenous thought. A number of tribes, as their councils would meet, would use that as one of their frames: if we make this decision, how is that going to impact seven generations down the road? So that’s the grand outcome statement. The current outcome statement is really around what the next generation of this work will be. Because I need to say, this work is not about me. This work is not about Donna. As woo-woo as that may sound to some people, I am eternally grateful that this work came through me, but it’s not about me. The importance of the community of practice is that it’s a big part of the next generation. We haven’t figured out how to hand off the baton yet, but we’re working in that direction. The Impact in Mission Driven Mom AUDREY: That is so incredible. I’m grateful for you, I’m grateful for the work, and I’m grateful for the inspiration. I have seen so many powerful transformations. We’ve probably had 1,200 people do the program at this point, and a huge number of them talk specifically about this transition in their frame of reference. I had a woman whose marriage had been on the brink for a long time, and this is just one of many stories I could tell. She finally submitted to going through the program, and when it was all done, people who knew her asked how her marriage was, and she said, “It’s great.” They said, “What in the world changed?” She said, “Well, I did that Mission Driven Mom program.” They said, “What difference did that make?” And she said, “It taught me to take responsibility for myself, that I have to meet my own needs and be the creator of my own life, and that I’ve been expecting my husband to do that for me.” DAVID: She reclaimed her agency. AUDREY: Yes. The program cycles four times through self-care, self-leadership, and self-discovery, and The Power of TED is in that first self-leadership section. Every subheading for that section is “increasing my personal power by,” and in the section your book is in, it’s “increasing my personal power by becoming a creator.” We designed little mini posters that people can print off and hang up on their mirror, in their home, in their room, and the first one says, “I am a creator.” I interviewed one of our students recently, and she said that when she read the book, went through that section, and pulled up her card to hang on her wall, tears came to her eyes and she thought, “That’s right. I am a creator.” I asked her what the impact of that has been, and she said, “All my relationships are significantly better. I stopped blaming everybody.” There’s another poster called No Blame Zone, so I encourage them to watch their words and stop blaming. That’s how it rolls out for them. AUDREY: I want to tell you how I found this book. My husband was getting a marriage and family therapy degree. We had had a troubled marriage for a long time. We had worked through a lot of key things. He had a pornography addiction for a long, long time, and we found answers for that. There are lots of other stories around that, but through all of those experiences, at some point we were introduced to the drama triangle. I found it somewhere doing research, and for me, like it was for you, it was just clearly true. It made sense of so many things and brought human interaction down to such a simple construction that it made everything easier and cleaner to navigate. But what’s ironic, and I don’t know if this was your experience, is that I went to try to find books on it, and there were very few. Some of them were not all that great, and there was not a whole lot of alternative offered. I just researched and researched until I found your book, and I thought, well, he’s telling me he’s got it all, because it says “an effective escape from the drama triangle,” and I knew exactly what the drama triangle was and who Stephen Karpman was. I got online and watched an interview between you and him on YouTube, and I think on that interview he even said your model is the very best solution to the drama triangle. I got the book, read it, was just blown away, and I’ve used it in my programs ever since. It’s so helpful, but people are so unaware. It’s just not commonly taught or understood. The Death of a Dream AUDREY: It helps in so many little micro ways too. Today I was going back through the book again, with all my notes and questions and highlights, and every time I go back, there’s something new that I needed to hear or that I see again. For me today, it was the reminder that the reason victims are positioning themselves as victims, or struggling in their victimhood, is because of, how do you say it, the death of a dream. And I’m right in the middle of that. I’m right in the middle of a moment in my life where it feels like a lifelong dream is dying, and it’s been incredibly painful. It was so vital for me to hear that today and to remember that I cannot have dreams built on other people’s choices, that past paradigms weren’t helpful, and that I have to move through those to be a creator again, to get back on track with what I know my call to be. I remember years ago I had a dear friend who was in crisis and grieving so many things, and she complained to me incessantly about her husband. I just kept saying to her, you’ve got to find what’s yours. And that was brought back to my mind going through the book again. I also want to tell you and everyone listening that when I went through your coaching program, which was phenomenal, there’s an exercise where you deconstruct what the problem is, and you look at a situation and see if you can come up with seven things you’re learning out of it. So helpful, even though the situation is unwanted and unwelcome. Victimization vs. Victimhood DAVID: If I can, Audrey, there’s so much in what you’ve just said that I’d like to add to and build on. One thing, given your current situation: a distinction that has emerged since The Power of TED was written, and this distinction is in 3 Vital Questions, is the distinction between victimization and victimhood. Victimization is something that we all experience as human beings. It’s situational. I use the proverbial scale of one to ten: one being the slow line at the grocery store again, and ten, you just have to turn on the news to see people experiencing the severe end of victimization. That is distinct from victimhood, which is a way of being. An identity. This work really stands as a challenger to victimhood while acknowledging the reality of victimization. And when there is a dream or desire that’s being denied or thwarted, whether by someone else or just by circumstances, I think there are times when it’s important to acknowledge our sense of victimization. To grieve. And not to deny or minimize. Part of the power of this work, and you just gave voice to it, is knowing that you’ll move beyond that. You’ll get back into that creator groove. Stephen Karpman’s Endorsement DAVID: And I appreciate you mentioning Stephen Karpman. That little video was shot in his garden; Donna and I had the opportunity to visit with him. When I first reached out to him, as we were coming toward the finishing of the book, Cece asked, “Who would you like to have endorse the book?” I said, “Well, I’d love it if Dr. Karpman would, and I don’t even know if he’s still alive or where he is.” We found him in the San Francisco area, where he’s been for a long time, reached out, and sent him a copy of just the empowerment dynamic chapter. Then I got a phone call. Donna and I were over at my apartment cleaning. The phone rang, Donna answered it, and I heard her say, “Oh, Steve, David will be glad to know that you called.” She handed me the phone and said, “Steve Karpman.” He said, “I read your chapter. I want to thank you for it. I think this is the best escape I’ve ever seen from the drama triangle.” I said, “Thank you. Can I use that as an endorsement?” He said, “No, I’m sorry. I’ve had a long policy of not endorsing anybody’s work, because I’ve been ripped off, and people have taken the triangle and named it themselves.” I said, “Okay. Thank you, I really appreciate it.” About three weeks later, I got an email from him saying, “I’ve thought more about it, and if I can refer to the empowerment dynamic as the empowerment triangle, you can have my endorsement.” And you were right about the books that were out there. As I was doing my own research, there were a number of things that had been written on the drama triangle, some that were okay, but basically what I found, and my guess is what you found as well, was: now that you know about it, just don’t do it anymore. AUDREY: Yeah, just stop it. Not super helpful. DAVID: Moderately helpful, but ultimately we need more. What do I do with this energy? What do I do with this focus? What do I do with these emotions? That’s what I feel blessed to have had come out of that epiphany. AUDREY: At the end of that coaching, or somewhere along the line, we were encouraged to make a statement, and you had a template for us that was phenomenal. Mine is two and a half pages long at this point, and it’s been a working document. It’s my daily creator statement. Every day that I take it out and take the time to read through it, it recenters me. It is so, so helpful. Probably the most helpful phrase in it is that I see myself and others as creators, resourceful and capable, able to navigate life successfully. DAVID: Wonderful. Well said. AUDREY: It reframes the interactions I’m going to have that day, how I’m going to talk to myself and see myself, and how I’m going to see the people in my life. I have six children, and many of them are in adulthood at this point. Those adult parent relationships are tricky to renegotiate. It’s been tough. They’ve had some really hard times that we’ve had to walk through with them. This came at a time in my life when it was so needed, and it has been helpful more times than I can tell you. DAVID: I am so grateful to hear that. Pity vs. Compassion AUDREY: I want to spend a few minutes before we finish talking about a few of the concepts in the book. You mentioned victimization and victimhood, and I’m so glad you brought that up. Of course, I’m just going to tell everybody to go read the book for themselves. It’s going to take them a couple of hours, they’re going to refer to it for the rest of their lives, and they’re going to need it. If they want to do my program, great. If they want to do your programs, great. I don’t really care. I just want them to have this tool. So, near the beginning of the book, you bring up pity. You talk about how Ted comes in and he doesn’t judge, but he doesn’t pity. And later on, David makes a comment about not pitying himself. Why did you call attention to the concept of pity? Why was it important that Ted didn’t judge or pity David? Why is that part of this orientation? DAVID: A couple of things. One is that in framing both the Ted character and the Sophia character in my own mind as I wrote, Ted, even though he does ask some coaching questions, really embodies a challenger, whereas Sophia embodies a coach. The reason I bring that up is that someone who is stuck in victimhood, distinct from victimization, often pities themselves, and in that sense can be pitiful. A conscious, constructive challenger, as Ted is in the book and in 3 Vital Questions as well, has compassion for the fact that change and growth are not always easy. But they don’t stand in judgment, and they see the person they are challenging as a creator in their own right, whether they act like it or not, and whether they know it or not. So they would not reinforce the sense of “oh, poor me,” which is the pity statement. It’s really coming from a place of compassion for whatever the struggle is, for whatever is calling forth the learning and growth. AUDREY: So what is the difference between the pity and the compassion? How would that show up if you were wanting to be a challenger instead of a rescuer or a persecutor? How could you tell the difference for yourself? DAVID: That’s a great question, Audrey. What comes to mind is that if one is feeling pity for themselves or someone else, the word that comes up for me is stuck. It’s like having your feet in tar, stuck in the pity. As a challenger, rather than saying, “Gee, Audrey, you’re sounding like you’re having a pity party,” I would not say that. What I would do, if I was noticing that, and I’m going to use a convention that has come up out of this work over the last 20 years, is feed back to you and say, “Well, Audrey, I really get that you’re feeling stuck, that you’ve got a lot of feelings in this. And I’m just curious: what’s one step you could take, whether it’s a conversation or some journaling, what’s one step you could take to begin to become unstuck?” And notice that I’m now going into the coach role. DAVID: That convention comes from a friend of mine who has been a longtime Buddhist practitioner. Quick background on this: he has had the opportunity to have two private conversations, ten minutes long each, with the Dalai Lama. He asked the Dalai Lama at one point what he should be teaching, because he had a teaching background. The Dalai Lama said, “I don’t know how to tell you what to teach, but I can tell you what I know every human being needs. Every human being needs to be heard, seen, and loved.” My friend Mark calls that HSL. So by acknowledging and saying to you, “I really get the feelings you’re having,” you’re being heard, you’re being seen and not judged, and you’re being loved and respected. If that space is created, it opens up the real possibility that you could take a baby step to start to get unstuck. Because you’ve been heard, seen, and respected. Letting Go and Believing in Others AUDREY: Wow, that’s beautiful. You made me think of something very simple. When I’m faced with someone who looks like they’re in self-pity or looks stuck, even myself, there’s this simple reminder that they can do it. You can do it. You can overcome this. It can be done. I know you don’t see the way yet. And it has to start with an inner conviction. I have to really believe that. I have to remind myself of why they can do it, of what resources they have available to them, and of how I can get behind the changes that need to be made: not by giving them the answers, and not by pushing or forcing, but just by believing in them. And I don’t win every time, because I slip back. I tell people all the time that I’m a recovering rescuer. I’m a mom. I want to have the answers, I want to put the band-aid on, I want everyone to feel better as fast as possible. And I want the dreams that I’ve carried for 30 years in bearing and raising all these children to be manifest right now. Getting into that tension is painful, and I want it to end. But the times when it’s successful: I’ve had two different experiences with my children where I basically reminded myself of all the reasons why they were capable and literally told God, I’m handing them off. They’re yours. And on two different occasions, I have had children come to me and say, “You are different.” It was immediately after, and I didn’t try to be different, but I was different. Because of the FISBE, the focus, inner state, behavior, I didn’t even always notice the nuanced ways my behavior toward them had changed. But my focus changed, so my inner state changed, because I was focused on how they could do it, why they could do it, why it wasn’t my role to babysit them, why it was their journey to have, why I couldn’t dictate the terms. Every time I stay in that space and let them walk with God and do it on their own, our relationship gets better. They feel closer to me. They feel like I’m not trying to control anymore. But I have to be super intentional about walking myself through that whole thing, especially when I’m really stuck. And sometimes it takes a while. DAVID: Sure. And I just want to reinforce that what I hear in those descriptions is that a very powerful baby step can be the act of letting go. I’m not saying that’s easy. What you inherently did is that you made the focus shift from your child being a problem to solve to seeing them as a creator: capable, resourceful, and whole, with resources, seen and unseen, that they can draw on. Your shift of focus leads to what can be subtle behavioral changes. And then they recognize, somehow intuitively, that your frame of reference toward them is different. You’ve not said anything to them, but it’s palpable somehow. They’re able to recognize in your countenance, in your energy, that there’s been a shift in you, and that is liberating them in some way. Because you’re treating them as a creator rather than reacting to them as a victim, either you feeling victimized or seeing them as a victim. It changes the whole energy. Ego and Control in the Drama Triangle AUDREY: Yes. And wanting to fix it, and wanting to control it, and wanting to have a different outcome that I’ve prescribed, and not liking the outcome that is happening, and it’s painful, and all of that. The other thing that was super helpful in the book today: at one point, and maybe Ted says it, there’s the idea that the drama triangle is just fraught with ego. You wouldn’t think of a victim as being really egotistical, but I see that in myself, because it’s me imposing my will. I’m wanting it to look a certain way because I want to look a certain way. And that whole concept of feeling embarrassed or ashamed: I don’t want to tell people this is how things are turning out, because it doesn’t look the way I wanted it to look, and it doesn’t make me look good. You become a parent, and you put your life on the line. All of it, and that includes your ego. You don’t always get to look like the star parent based on current outcomes, and it’s painful. DAVID: Well, and the other thing, Audrey, is that all three of the drama roles, victim, persecutor, and rescuer, are all trying to control the situation. Ultimately, it is I oriented. Whereas all three of the empowerment dynamic roles, creator or co-creator, challenger, and coach, are we oriented. They’re focused on the other person. Do Not Weaponize This Work DAVID: One thing I want to add before we go. There are two things I think are really important to say to your listeners. One is: please do not weaponize this way of being and thinking. What I mean by that is that one of the least empowering things you can do is to say something like, “Audrey, here’s this book. You really need to read this.” AUDREY: You’re broken. DAVID: Yes. And what goes along with that is this: I have one surefire way of being reacted to as a persecutor, and that is simply to tell the other person that they’re being a victim. AUDREY: You mention that in the book too. I ran across it again today. You tell somebody, “Hey, you don’t need to be a victim,” and immediately you’ve built a wall between the two of you. They’re just not going to listen anymore. DAVID: Exactly. There are other ways of opening the doors to a more empowered way of being. AUDREY: And to give people, well, it’s not even mine to give. Their freedom, their liberty, their right to choose, their right to have their own life. That’s not even mine to give. But when I’m trying to control things, I feel like I’ve got to give them that. It’s just a form of letting go, to recognize that. That’s why we use that metaphor of giving birth. Maybe another way you would talk about your book is that you gave birth to it. I gave birth to my children; I didn’t create them. I’m not responsible for their life. Their life came through me. I was talking to my daughter recently, having a better moment than some, and I just said to her, “I gave you life so you could live it. I didn’t give you life to control it. It’s your life, not mine.” That’s the place I try to stay in. I don’t always do a great job, but I try. DAVID: Wonderful. You know, the drama roles, and you said “recovering rescuer,” I want to really emphasize that those are roles that we play, roles that we can draw on. The genesis of those roles happens very early in life for all of us, in the reactive strategies we form in reaction to what’s going on around us. Our true essence is that creator essence. That’s who we really are. Because we are creators. And that is not a role to play. That is a way of being to embrace. AUDREY: That is so great to remember. I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it that way: in drama, you’re taking on a persona, but as a creator, you’re just being you. You’re being your best you. DAVID: Your best self, yes. Problems vs. Outcomes AUDREY: There’s one other thing I’d love to talk about, and then as we finish up, anything else you feel you want to share. There’s a distinction I want to try to get clear about. Later on in the book, there’s the FISBE, the focus, inner state, behavior. One way of talking about the drama triangle would be that it’s kind of problem centered, and I want to say that the empowerment dynamic is the opposite of that, that it’s solution focused. But you chose not to use the word solution. You chose to use the word outcome. So I wrote down: how can we tell the difference between when we’re reacting to a problem, or reacting to our anxiety, and shift it? Why is it outcome instead of solution? Because what I’ve seen in some of my students is a concern that comes up: “But if I don’t focus on the problem, I won’t solve it. If I don’t sit with it and try to brainstorm solutions...” I can see the wisdom in not using the word solution in some respects, but could you give more clarity around how someone can navigate that for themselves? Because it’s really easy to tell yourself, “I am being a creator,” but still be problem focused, and to think you’re doing it right because you’re trying to solve the problem. DAVID: Let me give that a shot. I didn’t use the term solution because we talk about problem solving, and one of the things I want to emphasize is that the victim orientation, or let’s call it the problem orientation, is not a problem solving orientation. It is merely a problem reacting orientation. We tell ourselves we’re reacting to the problem, but in reality, we’re reacting to the anxiety that we feel. And if we take steps that help the problem, what tends to happen is that our anxiety diminishes, and when our anxiety diminishes, we lose energy for action. So that’s one thing. The other thing is that problems absolutely exist. The empowerment dynamic is not Pollyannaish. It is not in any way diminishing the reality of the problems we face in our lives. When we face a problem, here’s the work to be done: to frankly ask the question, why do I care about this problem? What is it about this problem that I care about? There’s a phrase I came across a number of years ago from two Harvard professors, Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey. They make the observation that behind every complaint lies a commitment. Behind every complaint lies a commitment. AUDREY: Wow. Writing that down. DAVID: The reason that’s an important phrase, and the add-on question, is this: do we complain about things we don’t care about? Of course the answer is no. So when we’re complaining, or facing a problem, the work is to be able to ask and answer, and we may need the support of someone in the coach role: what is it about this problem that I care about? Why do I care about this? Unpacking what it is that I care about gives me an opening for focusing on the outcome I want to create. The other thing I want to say, Audrey, is that we solve problems in service to outcomes. In the use of dynamic tension and going after outcomes, we identify the obstacles, the problems that we need to resolve, in service to the outcome that we care about, that we’re passionate about. I hope that helps. AUDREY: Yes, that’s super helpful. So if I take the time to unpack it: I’m not liking the way that I’m feeling. That’s an important insight, right? Something’s off. There is a problem, because I’m not liking the way I’m feeling in this relationship or in this circumstance. And then asking myself: if I’m complaining about this, if this is making me uncomfortable or angry or anxious or resentful, why? What is the center of that problem, and why do I care about it? We did a little bit of this in the coaching, and it was super helpful. And then you take that and you start looking at values, which is actually something we do in the self-discovery element of my program, which I built before I even did your coaching a couple of years ago. The woman I interviewed recently about the program said that what she got out of it was The Power of TED, and another major one for her was values: recognizing that she doesn’t have all the same values as her husband, and that’s okay. She can honor his values and honor her values, and she cares about things because she values them. DAVID: Well, I’m so glad that the coaching course impacted you and has been of value to you. I will tell you that Donna has further evolved the coaching curriculum. She came out with a book two years ago: Who Do You Want to Be on the Way to What You Want? Coaching with the Empowerment Dynamic. It’s also a fable, also a story. She is doing wonderful work with coaches who want to coach with the empowerment dynamic, taking it to an even deeper level. AUDREY: Right, I got that book. And I’ve had a couple of my students go on from my program to do the coaching program with her, because they want to be coaches and they understand how helpful this construction is. DAVID: So whereas I’m focused these days on building the community of practice, she’s really focused on the coaching curriculum and working with coaches. Holding the Tension AUDREY: It’s phenomenal. That’s really, really great stuff. When you were talking before about how to know if you’re problem focused or focused on the outcome, it reminded me that one helpful way to tell the difference is how you’re feeling. Looking again at the FISBE: what’s your focus, and what’s your inner state? And then in the Robert Fritz book on creating that I grabbed, he has this section on tension. Have you ever heard the water glasses story that he tells? DAVID: Tell me. AUDREY: He introduces the idea of tension at an event. He puts seven glasses up at the front near the podium, and he has a pitcher of water there. All he does, before or between or during or after presentations, is pour water into a glass and leave it. He doesn’t say anything about it. He just lets it be at the front of the room all day long and into the evening. People start asking him, “Why are the water glasses there?” And all he would say was, “That’s a good question.” “Well, are you going to tell us?” “That’s a good question.” He just let the tension sit there. Everyone began to speculate, and then people started messing with the glasses. Different people took drinks out of them or poured out part of the water. Someone put a flower in one of them. Then he has everybody write down what they thought the glasses meant, and they read out all the answers, and he deconstructs with some of the people who messed with the glasses why they did it. The whole section is so helpful, and it plays beautifully into The Power of TED, because some of the people were playing with the glasses because they so desperately needed to control the situation, and that need to control was coming out of being in the drama triangle in some regard. They couldn’t handle the tension. He says that when we feel tension, we can deflate our goals, and a lot of times we do. We deflate the importance of our values or commitments. We deflate what we really care about, just to alleviate the tension. I think people do that when they walk away from their faith. Sometimes the tension is so uncomfortable that they minimize how they felt about that faith at one time or another. And there are a myriad of ways: they walk away from relationships, or from jobs, or from opportunities. It’s wrapped up a lot in that tension issue. And if everyone can take your advice and ask themselves what they’re committed to, that lends itself to being able to continue to care without feeling like they have to control. Because that’s what the tension is, right? You have to care but not control. DAVID: And as creators, it is a discipline to be able to hold the tension and not to react against it. You’re so right. This is a phrase from my friend and colleague Bob Anderson: one of the easiest ways to reduce the tension is to compromise the outcome. And what he says that is so powerful is that we can’t invest our souls in a compromise. There’s a part of us that knows that we’re compromising. But we can’t hold the tension because of the anxiety that we feel in it. And another thing I would like to say is that, again, this work is not Pollyannaish. It seems simple, but it’s not easy. AUDREY: I reread the preface again this morning, and you mention that several times: how nuanced it is, how difficult it is to actually live it out day by day. It is a practice. We talk in my academies a lot about practicing principles. Principles are universal truths that we can apply to our lives in a myriad of beautiful ways. Everyone is going to live those principles differently, but we have to practice them to imbue them in our lives. And what you said about compromising on the outcome, on the dream, on the goal, on the vision, on the mission, goes back to what you teach us about taking baby steps. You can alleviate the tension by decreasing the goal, or you can alleviate the tension by taking the baby step and letting that be enough. One of the things I wrote in my creator statement is: I know that the thoughts I choose to entertain and the words I choose to speak are critical parts of what I’m creating, because they’re the seeds and soil from which my creations grow. And: I am grateful for the incremental baby steps that help me manifest these outcomes, because it is the small steps that I can recognize and act on today that keep me engaged in the creative process. DAVID: That helps me remember what I was going to say, which is that creating outcomes is not anxiety free. There are times when we’re going to feel that anxiety, and the question is, can we have the anxiety without the anxiety having us? If the anxiety has us, that’s when we compromise, and that’s when we take less effective action. But if we can say, “Okay, I’m feeling anxious, and I’m going to take this baby step anyway,” that’s part of the process of creating outcomes. And I want to close by saying: don’t for a moment think that David Emerald is always in the creator orientation. I’m a human being just like all of us, and I certainly have times when I go reactive. But I think the measure of this work is that I’d like to think I catch myself more quickly, and I take baby step actions more quickly and more consciously. Reacting and feeling that anxiety is part of the human experience. Experiencing victimization is part of the human experience. So we need to have compassion for ourselves around that as well. Closing Thoughts AUDREY: Yes. What’s so liberating for me is to feel like I don’t have to stay stuck, that I have tools, and that there’s something I can turn to. Obviously, I’ve always been a person who turned to God and turned to scripture, and those things are helpful, but I find these principles reflected there too. I find that God brings me back to them because they’re truths. And when you were talking about anxiety, it reminded me of one of the times I read the book, maybe when I was teaching it, when I remember having this really clear epiphany: well, you’re going to feel uncomfortable either way. For me, that was a huge thing. I’m going to feel anxious either way, so I would rather be moving toward something than always reacting to something, if I’m going to feel anxious either way. DAVID: There you go. There you go. AUDREY: Well, thank you. This has been so great. Such a privilege, and such an honor. I really can’t thank you enough for the mission you’re engaged in, how you’ve given your life to it, and what you’ve given to so many people that I interact with. What a blessing it’s been in my personal life. I’ve taught it to my children, and it’s blessing their lives. One of my kids said recently, “Well, I just need to be a creator,” and I thought, yay. So it’s working. DAVID: This has been an inspiring conversation for me, Audrey, and I really appreciate the invitation very much. AUDREY: It’s been wonderful. Thank you so much, David. Bless you for all the work that you do. Everybody, please head over to theempowermentdynamic.com and check out all the programs. There’s a lot to engage in there. There are three books between David and Donna that I’ve read. I love them all and highly recommend them all. At the very least, grab The Power of TED. Do your best to engage with it and to live it out, because I can promise you, even the attempt will radically change and bless your life. Thanks for joining me today. We’ll see you next time.
EP 163 You Are Already a Creator. Here Is the Proof.
I want to tell you something Abraham Maslow figured out while studying the highest levels of human consciousness. He had assumed, like most of us, that creativity belonged to a certain kind of person. The artists. The composers. The poets. The rest of us just didn't have that natural creative genius. Then he started studying people who were truly thriving and one of them stopped him. She was a housewife. Uneducated, not wealthy, no artistic training. And yet everything she touched was original and inventive and alive. What he wrote about her is something I think every mother needs to hear. Come listen and I will share with you exactly what he said and why it changes everything about how you see yourself. Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction AUDREY: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” That is one of the most important and well-known sentences in the history of the world. It tells us who God is: He’s a creator. And it tells us who you and I are, as children of God — we are also creators. We cannot not create. So what are you creating? That’s what we’re going to talk about for the next few minutes. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, founder of The Mission Driven Mom, and today I want to spend some time on a topic we’ve been discussing a lot on this podcast and will be diving deep into this fall at our Mothers of Creation event: creation, and being creators. What does that really mean? Why does it really matter? Are There “Creative Types”? AUDREY: For those of you who went through a lot of public school in the West, you were probably just like me. In school there were art classes and music classes, and those students were “the creative types” — the ones who could draw and paint, the artists and the musicians. The rest of us weren’t creative. And then, on the other hand, today the world tells us like crazy: just create what you want. Create the life you want. Create a life you’ll love. You hear that kind of thing all the time. So which is it? Are there creative types, or can we all create literally anything we want? I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. AUDREY: I want to read you something today from Abraham Maslow — a very famous psychologist, in case you’ve never heard of him. He said that Freud figured out the unhealthy part of psychology, and he wanted to figure out the healthy side. He came up with his hierarchy of needs and the concept of self-actualization. This is from his writing on creativity, and he started with the same assumption I did. He says: “I soon discovered that I had, like most people, been thinking of creativeness in terms of products, and, secondly, I had unconsciously confined creativeness to certain conventional areas only of human endeavor — unconsciously assuming that any painter, any poet, any composer was leading a creative life. Theorists, artists, scientists, inventors, writers could be creative. Nobody else could. I didn’t even think of scientists, as scientists, as being creative. Unconsciously I had assumed that creativeness was the prerogative solely of certain professionals. But these expectations were broken up by various of my subjects.” AUDREY: So he was studying people intensively to better understand the highest levels of human consciousness and living — what it looks like when people are really at their peak, this self-actualization we strive for. He goes on: “For instance, one woman, uneducated, poor, a full-time housewife and mother, did none of these conventionally creative things and yet was a marvelous cook, mother, wife, and homemaker. With little money, her home was somehow always beautiful. She was a perfect host. Her meals were banquets. Her taste in linens, silver, glass, crockery, and furniture was impeccable. She was, in all these things, original, novel, ingenious, unexpected, inventive. I just had to call her creative. I learned from her and others like her that a first-rate soup is more creative than a second-rate painting, and that, generally, cooking or parenthood or making a home could be creative while poetry need not be — it could be uncreative.” AUDREY: That was a huge insight for him, and it’s important for us to keep in mind. Just because certain people are labeled “creatives” doesn’t mean anything. We are all creators; we can’t not create. What Creation Really Means AUDREY: You are creating, every day, the life that you live. Your choices, your thoughts, your beliefs, your patterns, your habits, your actions — they build up the circumstances all around you, and you experience the fruits of them. What happens to us is that we have areas of our life we don’t like, so they become problems. We build out these problem stories, telling ourselves everything that’s wrong with the situation and all the ways we can’t make it any different, and we struggle and fight, focusing on the problem instead of on what we want instead. To have a creator orientation is the gateway to a new life — and that’s what we’re working to flesh out for you on this podcast all through the summer and into the fall. AUDREY: I looked up the root of the word create. It comes from a very old root, “ker,” and here’s what’s fascinating: that root means to grow. Sometimes when we think of creation — of God as a creator, of ex nihilo, “out of nothing,” and all those biblical or Christian ideas — we picture it as coming up with something from nothing, molding and making material. But really it’s just to grow: to bring something worthwhile into existence, to love it enough to create it. This is how Robert Fritz talks about it — we’re going to have him on the podcast later, and I’m excited to talk with him about his ideas. He describes how we create because we love. We love the creation enough to bring it into existence. We love the unborn child enough to prepare for it; we love it before it exists in our material world. That’s the spiritual creation we bring about when we imagine things that could be and love them into existence. AUDREY: Now, this state of being is the opposite of being a victim. Creator is the opposite of victim. A victim is caught up in obsessive mental patterns that keep them stuck on a problem — focused on what they don’t like, what they don’t want, what’s not working out, unmet needs, unmet expectations, things they feel they can’t control, ways they feel stuck. And this can be a small thing, like hating running carpool, or a huge one, like going through a divorce or losing someone close to you. Creator Is the Opposite of Victim AUDREY: Any issue, small or major, that’s causing that pit in the stomach and those negative emotions — that’s where you’re probably showing up as a victim. I’d encourage you to go review the victim-type discussions I had with Lindsey Wright, and start asking: do I maybe have more power than I think I have? That’s the message our mothers and the women in our programs continually discover. They keep seeing new ways to identify truths, to see principles, to peel back the layers of how they’ve been thinking and believing about themselves and about life. And they feel so liberated as these misbeliefs and lies they’ve been telling themselves fall away. When we’re doing that, we’re acting like victims — and awareness is the key to change. We can’t know how to become a creator until we can admit we’ve been a victim; identifying the type of victim, and the antidotes that get us out, is enormously helpful. Once we recognize we’re being a victim, we can start to create something different, because now we know what’s been going on with us. What Meditation Teaches Us AUDREY: One thing I thought about while preparing this was from level three of our academy, where we go through worldviews. One of my favorite authors on worldviews is Huston Smith — he’s brilliant — and in this section he’s talking about Buddhism. Buddhism and the Eastern religions have gained a lot of traction in the West over the last fifty to eighty years; a lot of people love those worldviews now, or adhere to them. And even when they don’t, meditation has taken off in the West in a huge way. Here, Huston Smith is talking about why we meditate — basically what it can do for us — and I found it fascinating, because one of its primary functions is to move someone from a victim space to being a creator. Listen to how he describes it. Through the practice of meditation, one arrives at a number of insights. AUDREY: Number one: every emotion, thought, or image is accompanied by a body sensation, and vice versa. So as you become more aware that you’re acting like a victim, it’s an awakening — you become aware that you’re having these emotions and thoughts, and that they’re accompanied by feelings; that there’s a connection between your thoughts and your feelings, and that they’re inextricably linked. That’s why you can better control your thoughts by changing your words, your actions, and your thoughts. We talk about this in the academy — how they’re all interconnected. So those feelings of anxiety, dread, frustration, and confusion are a cue that you may be thinking like a victim in this area of your life, and you can key into that. AUDREY: Number two: one discerns obsessive patterns in what arises in the mind, and how these patterns constitute our misery. I mentioned this a minute ago — these obsessive patterns, where we feel so stuck. He says: for some it’s a nursing of old grievances; others find themselves preoccupied with longings and self-pity; and still others simply feel at sea. With continuing practice, the obsessive grip of these patterns loosens. So as you get better at understanding your thoughts and feelings and putting your finger on the obsessive patterns, you can begin to identify them. It’s different language, but it’s the same process. AUDREY: Number three: every mental and physical state is in flux; none is solid and enduring. Even physical pain is a series of discrete sensations that can suddenly change. You recognize that life is fluid, that you can make changes, and that all these sensations in your body take different shapes. AUDREY: Number four: the meditator realizes how little control we normally have over our minds and over our reactions. I found that so helpful and insightful to sit with — that even meditation, that every worldview and world religion, is attempting to help us get out of these terrible patterns and become creators, and to choose the tools that help us become a creator and stay a creator. Vision is the anchor; it’s the main tool we use. There are a lot of tools and principles around how to reframe your problem story into a creator orientation and build out a new vision for the world, and we’ll go over the details of those at our Mothers of Creation event. I’m so excited, and I hope you decide to join us to gain them. This is really important, because to be creators simply means we choose growth. When you feel stuck, you can be pretty sure you’re in drama — and creators grow. They change. They become better. As a Man Thinketh AUDREY: As we finish up, I want to read you a couple of things from James Allen — from As a Man Thinketh — that I think really apply. He says man is “a growth by law, and not a creation by artifice.” In other words, you aren’t just something that shows up fully formed; you are a growth. And “cause and effect is as absolute and undeviating in the hidden realm of thought as in the world of visible and material things.” Your thoughts are real. They’re things, and they create results. This law of cause and effect is happening to you all the time, and these obsessive ways of thinking are keeping you from being the creator you were born to be. That is your true orientation, your true way of being — but you have to choose it, and you have to know how. AUDREY: He goes on: “A noble and godlike character is not a thing of favor or chance, but is the natural result of continued effort in right thinking, the effect of long-cherished association with godlike thoughts.” In terms of what we do here at The Mission Driven Mom — teaching you to be principled — how better to be in constant association with godlike thoughts than to strive to be in association with His principles, to learn how to uncover and practice them, so you can lift yourself out of the persistent problems keeping you stuck? Those godlike thoughts can be principled thoughts. That’s what we want to do: change our orientation so we think in terms of principles. AUDREY: He continues: an individual “is continually frustrating the accomplishment of their goals by encouraging thoughts and desires which cannot possibly harmonize with that end. Such cases could be multiplied and varied almost indefinitely, but this is not necessary, as the reader can, if he resolves, trace the action of the laws of thought in his own mind and life; and until this is done, mere external facts cannot serve as a ground of reasoning.” In other words, you can trace your life back to your core beliefs and thoughts. What you think about all the time is what’s manifesting in your life. And you can change from a victim orientation, from drama, to a creator orientation by reorienting the things you think about persistently — untangling that knot. That’s why it’s so helpful to label it and to make the choice to change the way you’re thinking, to stay in a creator orientation. We’ll talk more in a future podcast about what vision is and how it’s the anchor for staying there. Choosing to Be a Creator AUDREY: One of the things we talked about in our discussions is the shift that happens when you recognize — because you can’t change anything you can’t see — that you’re being a victim. Just that begins to loosen the chains; it begins to help you change. And then you choose to be a creator, and now you’re in a new place. You look around and think, “Wait a minute — if I’ve been seeing it wrongly, then maybe there’s a new way to see it. I can reorient myself, I can see myself and others more clearly, and maybe there’s hope for me.” That’s stepping into creator orientation. Just in the act of questioning your way of being and your way of thinking, you’re beginning to think like a creator. AUDREY: James Allen says it’s “pleasing to human vanity to believe that one suffers because of one’s virtue.” Sometimes we think, “I was just being such a loyal friend, and that’s why it all fell apart — I didn’t have any part in it.” Even when it’s absolutely true that something happens to us that we had no part in, it’s also true that we’re in control of our response, and that we can choose a more empowered one — a response in which we’re at the center of what we can control, choosing to be a creator, choosing to grow, choosing to see the problem as a challenger, and choosing to go out and be coached through it. AUDREY: That coaching is invaluable. Creators need coaches. You need the tools, the guidance, the feedback. My daughter was a gymnast for twelve years, and that coach stood there for every single skill saying, “Change this, change this, change this” — and the nuances of all those changes led to incredible growth and great success in her gymnastics. We need the challenge, because that’s where growth happens: when we see our problems as challengers we can conquer, mountains we want to reach the top of, and we do the work to find the coach who can take us through it and help us become the creator we want to be. The anchor for all of it is vision — we hang on to that vision, and it keeps us wanting to see ourselves in this new orientation and stay the creator in our lives. AUDREY: So what Allen is saying is that it’s pleasing to our vanity — it makes us feel good — to think, “This problem only happened because other people are messed up, not me; I had no part in it.” And then we have no power to change it. That’s the trap. But if we can see that even our reaction can be made different, that’s a whole new place to be. He goes on: “Not until a man has extirpated every sickly, bitter, and impure thought from his mind, and washed every sinful stain from his soul, can he be in a position to know and declare that his sufferings are the result of his good, and not of his bad, qualities. And on the way to that supreme perfection, he will have found working in his mind and life the Great Law” — and he capitalizes “Great Law,” which I think is really telling — “which is absolutely just, which cannot therefore give good for evil or evil for good. Possessed of such knowledge, he will then know, looking back upon his past ignorance and blindness, that his life is, and always was, justly ordered, and that his past experiences, good and bad, were the equitable working out of his evolving, yet unevolved, self.” AUDREY: In other words, when we get honest about the fact that we show up in our lives as victims — when we accept that this is something we’ve been doing but don’t want anymore — then we have the power to decide to make it different: to decide to be creators, to engage in our own growth by admitting we’ve been in drama, even if we didn’t cause the problem. Admitting that our reaction was one of anxiety, frustration, confusion, and overwhelm — that we were reacting instead of acting according to a new vision or outcome. Taking the time to do that is where we really sit with ourselves, work it through, and determine to see things differently and think differently from now on, so we can stay in that creator orientation. Why Affirmations Aren’t Enough AUDREY: This is one of the reasons flat affirmations don’t really help. Affirmations aren’t enough of an anchor for us to truly change the way we’re thinking. In life, truth is the great anchor, and principles can do that for us. When we use principles to create a new vision for ourselves in a circumstance we maybe didn’t like or didn’t anticipate, we grow through all the challenges that come into our lives. We grow, and grow, and grow — because we show up as a creator every single time. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: So I hope that’s some food for thought as we head into a few more podcasts on this theme. We’ve got some great discussions coming up — Donna from The Power of TED, Robert Fritz, and some other people we’re excited to talk to — to flesh out what this creator orientation means, why vision matters so much, how we hold the tension to stay in that place, and how to make our lives more of what we’d have them be. But most importantly, to remember that our own development is the great adventure of our lives, because we are the only person we can control. When we take that seriously, really own it, and decide we’re going to show up as the creators of our own lives, things can really start to shift. When you use the principles of creation, and principles in other areas of your life, to lift yourself out of whatever is currently holding you stuck, everything can be different for you from now on. I’ve experienced that personally, and I’ve watched it happen with hundreds of women in our programs. I really want it for you. AUDREY: So if this material has been helpful, keep listening to the podcast and pass it along to a friend. And we’d love to meet you in person at the Mothers of Creation celebration — our MDM celebration this fall. Oh, I love the mountains, and we’d love to have you there. The information is down in the description; come meet up with us, and bring a friend. In the meantime, more great information on these concepts and principles is coming on the podcast. Thank you for joining me today, and I’ll see you next time.
EP 162 Are You Adding the Drama?
Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th You know the feeling. Something happens. Maybe your husband sleeps in, maybe the house is a mess again, maybe a conversation goes sideways. And before you have said a word, there it is. A tightening in your stomach. A low hum of frustration you carry around for the rest of the morning. That feeling is drama. And it is not the situation causing it. It is the story you are telling yourself about the situation. This week I sat down with Cadie Hatch, Tracie Hyde, and Lindsey Wright for a panel conversation on victimhood: what it actually is, how it shows up in real life, and what it feels like from the inside. All four of us got honest about our own patterns. And I think you are going to hear yourself in this one. AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 162: Drama & Victimhood — A Panel Discussion Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. Today I have with me CADIE Hatch, Tracie Hyde, and Lindsey Wright, and we’re going to talk for a few minutes about drama and victimhood. We’ve been preparing content for our upcoming Mothers of Creation celebration, focusing on these themes — drama and victimhood, creation and vision — because those are the things we’re going to spend all day on at the event. We’ve been having discussions in the background, preparing our presentations, working on our own problem stories, and having our own experiences with the content. So today we just want to talk a little about drama and victimhood. And I want to start with a very simple question: how would you describe a victim? What do we mean when we say “victim” here? How does each of you understand that? What Do We Mean by “Victim”? CADIE: I would say victims are kind of all around us. All of us can have this tendency to fall into the victim mindset. But regardless of the circumstances they’re in, victims see things in the negative. They want to focus on the problem — on the thing that’s annoying them — and they’ll stay stuck in the emotions and negativity around that problem for as long as they choose to. AUDREY: Great description, CADIE. To reiterate what you’re saying: there are victims in the world who are genuinely victimized — we’re not questioning that. But what we’re talking about is the drama triangle, and specifically the victim role within it, recognizing that we all show up in our lives as victims at times. That means we have areas of our life we don’t like, that are uncomfortable, where we feel frustrated and stuck and negative. It doesn’t mean everything in our world is falling apart, or that we can’t get out of bed in the morning. But it does mean there may well be an area of your life where, when you think about it or talk about it, your thoughts and feelings and words are predominantly negative — and you just don’t like it, and you don’t like thinking or talking about it, because it’s such an uncomfortable area. Any other thoughts on how you’d describe a victim, or on victimhood and the victim mentality? Responsibility and Powerlessness Tracie: I think an important word is responsibility. Victims don’t take responsibility, because that would mean they’d have to act or create. Instead they feel acted upon, powerless, and they push responsibility off. For example, I do this a lot in my marriage. My husband is really great at taking responsibility, and I’ve had to learn through the years, through his example, that I need to take responsibility for what’s mine — instead of saying, “No, that’s something you did,” or casting blame on someone else for why this happened. I need to own it and say, “Yes, that was my responsibility, and now I need to act and make a difference.” AUDREY: I love that. And even just taking responsibility for our response, for our attitude about what’s happening — parsing out what we can and can’t control has been so vital for me. I like that word you used, Tracie: powerless. A victim orientation feels powerless, like things are out of our control, like we’re being acted upon. LINDSEY: They weren’t supposed to be like this, and we’re so mad about it. The world is the way it is, and I’m the way I am, and nothing’s going to change no matter what I do. Tracie: And how I feel in victim mode is a pit in my stomach. I feel anxious, unhappy, unsatisfied, stuck — it’s not a great place to live. CADIE: I feel the exact same way, which is so interesting to me. When I’m in drama, I feel it in my stomach — that tightening — and it’s something I’m adding to the situation. Here’s a general example: my husband loves to sleep in, and he’ll sleep in and feel no guilt about it — “This is great, I got to sleep in.” And I’ll be thinking, “Oh, I just missed two hours of things I should have done.” I’m the one adding the drama to the situation. AUDREY: Or the expectation. Are We Adding the Drama? AUDREY: It’s interesting, Tracie, because of what you said about not taking responsibility. What’s fascinating is that it’s so easy to tell yourself you’re not in drama, that you’re not acting like a victim, that you’re not focused on yourself — because you’re doing stuff. But why are you doing this stuff? How are you doing it? And is doing it actually alleviating the negative emotions you’re trying to be rid of? If those actions don’t really make you feel better, then that’s not actually taking responsibility for what you can take responsibility for. A good example: I’m still a recovering rescuer. I want to have all the answers for everybody and tell them how things ought to be, so I’m often doing something — but I’m still stuck right in the middle of the drama. And when people don’t respond to my rescuing the way I want them to, I have an excuse to go back and play the victim and lick my wounds: “They didn’t even take my good advice.” Because ultimately I’m not taking responsibility for what’s mine; I’m just reacting to a situation that’s uncomfortable. Not About Positive Thinking LINDSEY: I like that. Can I share something? I came across this the other day — it’s a book we use in the MDM Academy called 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don’t Do. I think what we’re describing, this victim orientation, is really that we’re mentally and emotionally weak in some areas. Becoming a creator is a strength we have to develop. And I know we’re going to do another whole podcast on this, but it’s not about positive thinking. We keep saying victim is negative and creator is positive, so it’s easy to hear that as “I just have to think positively all the time” — and there’s a nuance to clarify there. The author, Amy Morin, says mental strength is about thinking realistically and rationally. A victim isn’t thinking realistically or rationally; they’re blowing things out of proportion, holding themselves and others to impossible, unrealistic standards. They’re not seeing themselves clearly or telling themselves the truth. So it’s not just “make every thought positive.” It’s becoming intentional: we notice a thought, we notice the guilt we’ve attached to something, and we get curious about it instead of judging it — not “I’m a bad person for feeling guilty about sleeping in,” but “That’s interesting. What is that teaching me, and how am I responding?” Then we become intentional about showing up differently — and the pit in the stomach starts to loosen, and we get out of the drama. AUDREY: Great stuff, Lindsey. If you’re interested in what exactly those victim types are, Lindsey and I did some podcasts on them recently, so you can go back and review those. Which Victim Do You Show Up As? AUDREY: With that in mind, I’d love to hear from each of you. How do you identify with this framework? What kind of victim do you show up as? And more importantly, how has having this language — being able to recognize it — been helpful for you? CADIE: I’ve really learned that I show up as different types of victims in different circumstances. My typical go-to — my “home victim” — is the perfectionist. Lindsey has done an incredible job identifying these different types, and among the four of us we feel we’ve identified another one to add to the list: the perfectionist. That’s my home victim. But I’ve noticed I show up as different types depending on what I’m doing. Recently I learned that when I go to clean my house, I very quickly become the martyr: “I’ve taught you all better than this. I’ve taught you to put your clothes away, to put your shoes away, and you don’t do it. Why don’t you appreciate me?” I get so frustrated with my family. But the reality is people are coming in and out of the house all day, we’re all busy, and things get left because it’s real life. When you’re living, you make a mess, and it has to be cleaned up eventually. It doesn’t mean they’re completely irresponsible human beings because they didn’t put their shoes in the rack like I asked. So I need to slow down and recognize that we’re still good people. AUDREY: That’s awesome, CADIE. So how has having that language helped you? Because it could just become one more way to feel bad about yourself, right? One more thing that’s wrong with you: “Now look at another victim type — here I am being a martyr.” Is it actually helpful, or is it just one more way to beat ourselves up? CADIE: It depends on how you want to look at it. If you want to stay in victim and use it as a battering ram to beat yourself up, you can. But if you want to recognize — as I’ve learned, because Lindsey has done so much amazing work with this — that there’s an antidote, then I can choose to use it and get out, or choose not to and stay stuck. Knowing all the different victim types helps me, because I think, “I know there’s an antidote to this one, so let me use it, get myself out, and start feeling better a lot faster.” AUDREY: I love that, Cadie — and I love that you used the word choice. We keep coming back to that word. Another concern women might have is, “Come on, I can’t be perfect all the time. I shouldn’t be upset when I’m vacuuming, or when I host a party.” But we’re not saying that. We’re saying we want to give you choices — the opportunity to recognize what you’re doing. If you don’t like how you’re feeling, if this is an area of your life where you get a pit in your stomach and feel negative and worried and upset and you just don’t want to feel that way, we’re giving you an option to recognize it. And the reason that matters so fundamentally is that you can’t change what you don’t see. So we’re just trying to help you have eyes to see this pattern — in yourself, and in all of us, because we’re all human — and to see that it’s a way of being we can choose out of, if we want the truth to make us free and we want to know how to make a different choice: to choose an antidote that kicks us back out of it. How It Helps: Compassion, Ownership, and Peace AUDREY: As we finish up, I’d love to hear one example from each of you. How has understanding drama, victimhood, and victim types made your life a little bit better — in your mothering, your marriage, your other relationships? We’ll talk more about being creators and having vision in future podcasts, so I want to speak specifically to the ability to recognize this, to see it in yourself, and to have words for it. How is that helping you? LINDSEY: For me, it’s empowering. The words help make something abstract more concrete, so I’m not as confused. I don’t wonder, “What’s going on with me?” I can see what’s happening — and if I can see it, I can change it. Becoming more aware has allowed me to flip it, because I don’t want to be that. But it’s also helped me be more compassionate toward myself and toward others. Just like Cadie said, we get to decide whether we use these tools to beat ourselves up or to empower ourselves. We could use this information to beat other people up — “You’re being a victim” — or to recognize what’s happening with ourselves and others and say, “Oh, I think I understand what’s going on, and I know what role I need to play, because I can see where we are in this dreaded drama triangle.” So it just helps me have a little more compassion for myself and others. AUDREY: I love that, Lindsey. Other thoughts? Tracie: It’s helped me realize that I’m the problem. I think I’ve gone through life assuming I’m not the problem — that things just weren’t working out in relationships, for some strange reason. But now that I can see a lot of it starts with me, then, like Lindsey said, I can see how to get myself out. The other thing is helping others get out of drama. You can’t necessarily tell someone they’re in drama — that’s something we each have to recognize for ourselves — but there’s a way to ask questions and lead them out. That’s been huge for my family, because we all have this lesson to learn, including our children. If we can help them take those steps out of the darkness into the light, our family relationships are so much better. They’re able to engage with the world in a positive way, enjoy more happiness, and avoid that pit in their stomachs — and the same for us. It leads us all to a happier, more light-filled life. AUDREY: I love that, Tracie. CADIE: I love what you said, Lindsey, about feeling more compassion. As I was thinking about this, I’ve felt the same way — compassion has really increased for myself and for the people around me. My husband and I have a lot going on in our neighborhood and community; we like to be out and part of the projects happening in our town. And I’ve noticed that when you’re working on a project, it’s easy for drama to arise. Understanding the drama triangle and being a creator helps us make a lot of peace in the circles of influence we’re part of. So it’s not just about helping yourself feel better — though it does that, and that’s hugely valuable — you can create a lot of peace. The more people I talk to, especially the older people I speak with, the more I hear, “I don’t remember there ever being so much hostility in society as there is now.” And I’ve found that if I can approach a situation recognizing that this person might be in a victim orientation right now — I’m not going to tell them, “You’re being a victim,” because that doesn’t create peace — but if I can recognize that they might be in drama, and that I might be playing a role in it, then I can ask, “How can I help them get out? How do we help this calm down?” It creates much more peace and much more civil conversation. Ultimately, that’s what we’re shooting for: an improved cultural experience for all of us. AUDREY: When you say it like that, it makes me think that understanding this victim orientation is just a tool to love better — to love ourselves and love others better. CADIE: Loving your neighbor is huge, right? The golden rule — treat others the way you’d want to be treated. When I’m upset about something, I don’t need someone coming and yelling at me about it. Talk to me, listen to me for a minute, let me talk to you, let’s go back and forth and have a conversation. Let’s not just assume the worst in the other person. Victims, because they put so much blame on others, always assume “they’re the problem, they’re the problem.” If we can get out of that, we can have a much better influence. Closing Thoughts and Invitation AUDREY: I love that. That’s a beautiful way to end this discussion. Thank you, ladies, so much — that was really insightful. It’s inspiring to be reminded that we have so much more power than we think we have. We can change so many more things, and have so much more influence on ourselves and others, than we think we can. But we need to educate ourselves, gain recognition and understanding, and work toward the principled thinking that truly liberates us. That’s what we’re hoping to provide. AUDREY: We’re super excited for this event coming this fall in the beautiful mountains of Utah at the end of September — Mothers of Creation. We hope you’ll plan to join us. If you haven’t signed up, there’s a link below to learn more and register, and you’ll get instant access to Lindsey and to the community of mothers who are coming, learning more, and asking questions as they prepare for an incredible event. Otherwise, we hope these podcasts and this information are of great value to you. If so, please pass them along to a friend — it helps us grow and reach more women who want to be empowered with principles. And if this content interests you, keep listening; these are themes we’ll continue to revisit in the months leading up to the event. We’re so grateful you’re here with us, and we’ll see you next time.
EP 161 Mission Driven Story: Jacques Lusseyran
Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th Episode 11: Mission Driven Story: Jacques Lusseyran I want to tell you about a man named Jacques Lusseyran. He was eight years old when a classmate bumped into him in the middle of a crowded classroom and sent him crashing into the corner of a teacher's desk. His glasses didn't break. The arm of the frames went into the tissue of his right eye. By the time he woke up the next day, he was completely blind. And yet by the end of his life, he would say that every single day he thanked heaven for making him blind. This week's episode is his story. Jacques went on to become a leader of the French Resistance during World War II, eventually leading a movement of more than 600 young men and women. He was arrested, interrogated, and sent to Buchenwald. He was one of 30 survivors from a transport of 2,000 prisoners. What makes his story so extraordinary is not just what he survived. It's what he discovered. AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Episode 161: Jacques Lusseyran — Choosing to Be a Creator Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. Today I have the honor of telling you the story of Jacques Lusseyran. He was a French Resistance fighter during World War II, but his story is so much more than that, as I’m sure you’re going to find out. Years ago I did a longer, more thorough podcast on his life, showing how he lived the seven laws of life mission — you can go listen to that one too if you’d like. But today I want to share some of the key highlights of his life with a very specific lens in mind. I’m going to focus on a few principles that we’ll be diving deep into this fall at our Mission Driven Mom celebration for our Mothers of Creation. Through Jacques’s experiences, I want to help you see how powerful it is when we choose not to be a victim but to be a creator instead — regardless of what life throws at us. And I want you to see what vision really is, and how it empowers us to navigate the most difficult moments of our lives. AUDREY: I’m going to begin by telling you his story, and while I do, I want you to keep some principles in mind — the ones we’ll focus on at the celebration this year. Number one: when we respond to life as a victim of circumstances, we get frustrated, stuck, and lose our way. Two: a victim mindset robs our vision and makes us blind. Three: we can choose to be a creator regardless of circumstances. Four: responding to life as a creator causes us to feel liberated, clear, and even joyful. And five: our choice to live in a creator orientation blesses not just us, but those around us — and sometimes our whole community and beyond. When I finish Jacques’s story, I’ll remind us of those principles again and encourage you to take some time this week to ponder them in your own life. Losing His Sight AUDREY: So here we go. On a beautiful May morning in 1932, little Jacques was at school as usual. At ten o’clock the children jumped up, all of them excited to get outside, running all over the classroom. As Jacques moved toward the front of the room, a student darted past and hit him, causing him to fall into the corner of the teacher’s desk. His new glasses were made of shatterproof glass, so they didn’t break — instead, the arm of the spectacles drove into the tissue of his right eye, and he lost consciousness for the next twenty-four hours. During that time, doctors discovered that his right eye was completely destroyed and would have to be removed, and that his left retina had been so badly torn that by the time he woke up the next day, his whole life had changed. At the tender age of eight years old, he would be blind for life. AUDREY: Physically he recovered quickly. Within a month he was walking again; the next month he was learning Braille; and by the third month he was running and playing on the playground with the other children. But overcoming his blindness was a different challenge. He said this: “It was a great surprise to me to find myself blind, and being blind was not at all as I had imagined it. Nor was it as the people around me seemed to think. They told me that to be blind meant not to see, and for a time I still wanted to use my eyes. I looked in the direction where I was in the habit of seeing before the accident, and there was anguish, a lack, something like a void, which filled me with what grown-ups call despair. AUDREY: “Finally, one day I realized I was looking the wrong way. I could still see — in myself. I could still picture myself in the Champ de Mars. I knew the garden well: its ponds, its railings, its iron chairs. Naturally, I wanted to see them again, but I couldn’t. At this point some instinct — I was almost about to say a hand laid on me — made me change course. I began to look more closely, not at the things outside but at a world closer to myself, from an inner place, from further inside. Instead of clinging to the movement of sight toward the world outside, the substance of the universe drew together, redefined itself, and formed itself anew. I was aware of a radiance emanating from a place I knew nothing about. I felt an indescribable relief, and a happiness so great it almost made me laugh. Confidence and gratitude came like a prayer that had been answered. I found light and joy at the very same moment.” AUDREY: This experience relieved him of his initial despair. It enabled him to overcome the fear of blindness and gave him a way forward. Yet learning to navigate the other aspects of his blindness took time. One important tool he slowly discovered was that his thoughts and emotional choices had a profound impact on his ability to “see” and to function well as a blind person. Fear, Not Blindness AUDREY: As Jacques made his way through this new world, he eventually learned that it was actually fear — not the loss of sight — that made him truly blind. This is what he said about it: “Fear made me blind. Anger and impatience had the same effect, throwing everything into confusion. The minute before, I knew just where everything in the room was; but if I got angry, things got angrier than I was. When I was playing with my small companions, if I suddenly grew anxious to win, to be first at all costs, then all at once I could see nothing. I could no longer afford to be jealous or unfriendly, because the moment I was, a bandage came down over my eyes. But when I was happy and serene, when I approached people with confidence and thought well of them, I was rewarded with light.” AUDREY: In this way, Jacques gained a mastery over himself rarely achieved, especially in a child. He discovered that he had to rein in his natural tendencies toward anger, pettiness, unkindness, and jealousy. The temptation to give in to self-pity and victimhood was strong, but Jacques began to realize that when he chose to live according to true principles and governed his heart and mind instead, his ability to function well and happily in the world was restored. This insight was revolutionary for him. AUDREY: This process helped him grow into a man he could not otherwise have been. Through daily practice, he developed a high level of command over himself, along with an enhanced ability to love others more fully. This generated inner peace and self-confidence and endeared him to everyone who knew him. The character he built by living these principles spilled over into other areas of his life, and his education became a great success story. Through his persistence in learning Braille and studying hard, he was able to remain in the classroom alongside sighted students — can you imagine? — eventually winning first place in his class. The Coming of War AUDREY: Although Jacques had already faced and overcome extremely difficult challenges, another great crisis came into his life during his high school years: the outbreak of World War II. Fortunately, he had developed immense emotional, mental, and spiritual maturity in his younger years, and now it served him well. Already a very conscientious man, the war awakened in him a strong desire to know, to understand, to make sense of what was happening. For Jacques and his friends, the war was a call to action. They dug deeper into their studies and read the greatest thinkers, searching for answers. AUDREY: This is what he said about that time: “We wanted to learn how to live, and that was a much more serious matter. And we wanted to learn fast, because we felt that the next day it would surely be too late. There were signs of death on land and in the air, from the Spanish War to the frontiers of Russia — not just signs, but battles to the death. The feeling rumbled inside us, pressing to come out into the open: unless we were up to making a better world than our elders had made, the orgy of stupidity and killing would go on until the end of the world. I sat up late at night. I had thrown myself furiously into the study of philosophy. I wanted to understand it all, and I felt it was urgent. I don’t know exactly why, but it seemed to me that such a chance would not come again — that I was going to be snatched away to more worldly responsibilities. All the ideas of men who had dedicated themselves to thought found their way into my head for the first time, from Pythagoras to Bergson, from Plato to Freud. I examined them as closely as I could.” AUDREY: By the following spring, France had been occupied by the Germans. Of this time, Jacques wrote, “In me was a pack of fears and desires, intentions and irritations, which had had me clenched in a tight fist for weeks.” Then he learned that one of his closest friends had been arrested. Three days later, he contracted measles. He felt the illness was as much a moral lesson as a physical one. Of the change that took place in him as a result of the sickness, he said: “This was no microbe or virus making its way in me. It was a resolve. It took me over from head to foot like a conquered land. I could not resist it, for it had taken the wheel. It was driving me to definite destinations I had not thought about before it came. This resolve gave me orders, telling me first of all that I must say nothing to my family. I must have a meeting with two of my comrades — I already knew who they were. Later I would have to get in touch with about ten more. The list was already made up. My only haste was to get my body well again, to risk it all in the great adventure. On the first day of convalescence, I said to myself aloud in my room: ‘The occupation is my sickness.’” Forming the Resistance AUDREY: As soon as Jacques was well, he called his friends together and formed a resistance movement, later named the Volunteers of Liberty, which eventually involved more than six hundred young men and women. About their resolve to do whatever was necessary to fight for truth, he had this to say: “Let people be silent if they were able to go on living without speaking out. We were incapable of it. For our part, we knew that Nazism threatened the whole of humanity, that it was an absolute evil, and we were going to publish its evil all around us.” AUDREY: To lead this incredible group of young people, he leaned not only on the strength of character he had forged through his education and hard work, but heavily on God to guide him. At their very first meeting, he quickly learned how desperately he needed help and guidance. He said this: “At the beginning of May I had adopted an ascetic way of life. Every day, including Sunday, I got up at half past four. The first thing I did was to kneel down and pray: ‘My God, give me the strength to keep my promises. Since I made them in a good cause, they are yours to keep as well as mine. Now twenty young men — tomorrow there may be a hundred — are waiting for my orders. Tell me what orders to give them. By myself I know how to do almost nothing, but if you will it, I am capable of almost everything. Most of all, give me prudence.’” AUDREY: Amazingly, even in the midst of great danger, Jacques felt an immense amount of personal meaning and joy. Of this he said, “I was surprised when I awoke in the morning, feeling a sense of purpose strong and entirely new to me. I was madly happy to be doing this work.” AUDREY: Early on, it was decided that Jacques would be the sole screener for potential recruits. Here again, his blindness came to his aid. Because of the loss of sight, his other senses were heightened, and through years of practice he had learned to listen carefully to body language, to choice of words, and to intonation of speech. More importantly, he had a profound intuition about people. He said, “The consciences of my companions seemed to be wide open before me, and all I needed to do was read them.” His accuracy was nearly perfect. Although he interviewed over a thousand individuals for the six hundred members of his resistance group, only one ever betrayed them. Betrayal and Buchenwald AUDREY: When that betrayal came, several of them were arrested. After a long and difficult interrogation — accompanied by many miracles that kept Jacques alive — he spent several months in prison. Finally, he and a few of his friends were transported to Buchenwald concentration camp. In the beginning he was able to take comfort in having a few friends close to him. But when they were all shipped to other camps and he was left completely alone, fear took over. He said, “Fear is the real name of despair.” AUDREY: He also said: “In March I had lost all my friends. They had all gone away. A small child was reborn in me, looking everywhere for his mother and not finding her. I was very much afraid of the others, and even of myself, since I no longer knew how to defend myself. One day out of two, people were stealing my bread and my soup. I grew so weak that when I touched cold water, my fingers burned as if they were on fire. AUDREY: “For those unfit for labor like me, they had another system: the Invalid Block. It was a barracks like the others. The only difference was that they had crowded in fifteen hundred men instead of the three hundred that was average for the other blocks, and they had cut the food rations in half. As a result, people were dying there at a pace that made it impossible to keep any count. It was a greater surprise to fall over the living than the dead. For days and nights I didn’t walk around — I crawled. I made an opening for myself in the mass of flesh. My hands traveled from a stumbled leg to a dead body, from a body to a wound. I could no longer hear anything for the groaning all around me.” AUDREY: These vile conditions, compounded by the fear and despair Jacques felt, soon took their toll, and he became very ill. Pleurisy led to dysentery, then to an infection in both ears that left him deaf for two weeks, then to erysipelas, then to complications from blood poisoning. Through it all, Jacques drew closer to God and nurtured his soul. Light in the Darkness AUDREY: When he finally left the camp hospital, skin and bones, he said: “I was so happy to be alive, and free to help the others. I could try to show other people how to go about holding on to life. I could turn toward them the flow of light and joy that had grown so abundant in me. Hundreds of people confided in me. The remarkable thing was that listening to the fears of others had ended by freeing me almost completely from anxiety. I had become cheerful, and was cheerful almost all the time. That helped me, naturally, but it also helped the others. They had made such a habit of watching for the coming of the little blind Frenchman — with my happy face and my reassuring words, delivered in a loud voice, and with the news I gave out — that on days when there was no news, they had me visit them just the same.” AUDREY: By the time he was released, he was one of only thirty survivors out of his original transport group of two thousand prisoners. After the war, he moved to the United States and became a husband, a father, and a university professor. Surprisingly, he always attributed his ability to accomplish these amazing feats to his blindness. That is why, through all the challenges and joys of his life, he could honestly say that “every day I have to thank heaven for making me blind.” Closing Thoughts and Challenge AUDREY: His story is absolutely incredible — it often brings me to tears. He is definitely one of my heroes. I know he wasn’t a perfect man; no one is. But could you see those principles of creation at play in his life? Let me remind us all what they are. Number one: when we respond to life as a victim of circumstances, we get frustrated, stuck, and lose our way — like Jacques did when he first gave in to his blindness. Two: a victim mindset robs our vision and makes us blind, just as it did to him. Three: we can choose to be a creator regardless of circumstances, just like he did. Four: responding to life as a creator causes us to feel liberated, clear, and even joyful. And five: our choice to live in a creator orientation blesses not just us, but those around us — and sometimes our whole community and beyond. AUDREY: So with Jacques’s story in mind and these principles in front of us, I want to challenge all of us one more time to consider them — not just in his life, but in our own. I’d love for you to return to this video and put your insights in the comments below. Where do you sometimes struggle with being a victim to your problems and circumstances? When was a time you overcame the victim mindset and turned things around with your own creative abilities? And what can you do to be more of a creator, rather than a victim, in your own life? AUDREY: When things get hard, think of Jacques and all he came through. Consider how different his life could have been if he had chosen to give up and be the victim — how unhappy he would have been, and all the lives he would never have blessed. But he chose to be a creator, and he set a beautiful example for us. Showing up in life as a creator blesses you and everyone around you. It can be a harder path, but it’s definitely a better one. AUDREY: If you’re ready to better understand the difference between victims and creators — how you might be showing up as a victim without even realizing it — and if you want to gain tools and learn principles that can get you out of the problems and challenges keeping you stuck, and onto a road toward a life more full of meaning, joy, and vision, I want you to consider joining us this fall in Utah for an all-day training on these concepts. There’s a link in the description, and you can learn more about the conference at themissiondrivenmom.com. I hope to see you there. Thanks for joining me today, and I’ll see you next time.
EP 160 What Disney has been teaching us about being victims
Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th EP 159 You're probably not a victim. Except you kind of are. Here is something I need you to know before you watch Frozen again. The moment everyone cheers. Elsa in her ice castle, belting "Let It Go," finally free, finally herself. That moment is not the triumph we think it is. That moment is Elsa playing the victim. Lindsey Wright is back on the podcast this week, and she has done something I think is truly brilliant. She took the six victim types we've been studying and matched each one to a Disney character. The result is one of the most clarifying conversations we've ever recorded. AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. So grateful to have you with us today. I want to ask you a question. If every Disney movie only exists because there’s a problem, what if those beloved stories are actually teaching us how to be victims? We’re going to talk about that today. AUDREY: This is Lindsey Wright who’s with me today. We recently did a podcast where we talked about victim types — all six of them. We broke them down, gave you some detail on a couple so you could really begin to understand how they work and what they are. We talked about how when we can see ourselves in these victim types, it helps us identify the fact that we’re acting like a victim, and then we can start to work on a way out. Lindsey mentioned this a couple of different times: naming things can be so incredibly helpful. It helps us better understand what it is that we’re doing and why we’re doing it. For me, that’s been a catalyst for change, because I don’t want to be the dummy or the avoider or the quitter — but how do I be different? Lindsey has built out a beautiful framework for that which she teaches inside our Mothers of Creation community. If you haven’t listened to our previous episode, we encourage you to go back and listen, but you can also start here and go back afterward. Today we’re going to dive deeper into the victim types by talking about Disney movies — some core stories that we’re probably all very familiar with. AUDREY: Before we do that, Lindsey, as you were building this out, why did you head toward these Disney stories? What tipped you off to the idea that these characters could help illustrate the victim types? Why Disney? LINDSEY: First of all, I think because Disney is so much a part of the culture. I grew up with Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast — we had never seen movies like that before. It was just part of my growing up. And Disney has long been associated with family. I felt like it was something we could all understand quickly, something that would help make these abstract ideas a little more concrete. LINDSEY: Everything we watch, everything we listen to, everything we read is trying to teach us something or convince us of something. Are we aware of the lessons we’re receiving? I thought if I could give people an image — something familiar — that would be really helpful as we teach these different victim types. And once I started going, I realized a movie is not a movie unless it has some drama. That’s why we watch it. There’s a problem, characters react to it, and we would not enjoy the movie if the characters always stayed in the drama. What we want to see is transformation. So it’s a rich resource — you see not only the victim types, but how each character gets out of them. I’ve really tried to stay away from the villains because I want us to see that these victim types are all of us. We embody all of them, some more than others. But that also means that all of us have the tools to get out of them. The Avoider: Elsa (Frozen) AUDREY: Let’s start with the avoider. Who did you choose for this one? LINDSEY: I’m not trying to destroy Disney movies, but the character I chose for the avoider is Elsa. If you watch just a clip of ‘Let It Go,’ you can see all of the things we’ve connected to this victim type. She’s afraid. She doesn’t want to lose control. She fears the emotional discomfort of reaching out to people, so she avoids it all. She builds her ice castle in the mountains, decides she’s going to be by herself. She doesn’t trust herself. She doesn’t think anything is going to change or get better. She can’t face it. She’s overwhelmed. She’s stuck. LINDSEY: And in the theater, that moment — that ‘Let It Go’ song — is meant to be a girl-power high point. You go, Elsa. You show them. The singing is beautiful, she’s being herself. And yet — actually, she’s being a victim. We know this because her reaction causes problems. What we see at the end of the movie is that she has to learn something about herself. She has to learn that love is more powerful than fear. That relationships are more valuable than anything she could do by herself. There’s something she has to learn about who she is — and that is a pattern I’ve noticed over and over as I’ve connected these victim types to Disney characters. AUDREY: What’s so interesting is that Elsa is the hero. She’s the one with superpowers. Her sister Anna is the one who’s ‘normal’ — and yet Anna is the one problem-solving, taking risks, facing fears, doing hard things. Elsa just sits in her castle and avoids and blames, while Anna is actively fixing things. Elsa technically has more power than her sister, who is the one making things happen. Which tells us a lot about what we’re doing when we play the victim. We’re snuffing out our own power. AUDREY: Why do you see Elsa as the avoider rather than the quitter? LINDSEY: She’s an avoider because she doesn’t even engage at all. The quitter engages and then it gets too hard, and so they quit. Elsa is just ‘no, I’m not going to have anything to do with it.’ She’s been avoiding all the way along — from the very beginning, putting the gloves on her hands — and then she does the ultimate act of avoidance. Her parents were teaching her some of those behaviors, and she just plays them out as she gets older and the consequences get bigger. AUDREY: One other thought: we mentioned last time that this is built around the drama triangle that Stephen Karpman taught — the simple triangle where, when we’re in problem stories, there’s always a victim, a rescuer, and a persecutor. What we didn’t mention is that the whole reason the drama triangle exists is because everyone wants the victim role. They’re all vying to be seen as the victim. Even persecutors don’t just show up wanting to be persecutors — they want to be seen as victims too. And one of the most important things to understand about this is that when we play the victim, we actually show up to others as a persecutor. LINDSEY: Exactly. Elsa feels like a persecutor to the people around her. She’s playing the victim, but when others try to empower and encourage her to take action, she lashes out like a persecutor. And it shows how subtle some of these victim orientations can be. She feels like she’s doing the right thing. The avoider feels like they’re doing something — but they’re reacting, making their own little plans in their own little world, convinced they’ll figure it all out alone. AUDREY: So how does Elsa’s story become untangled? Because the most powerful movies and stories speak to us because of the transformation of a character — and that’s who we all are, characters in our own story wanting transformation. LINDSEY: What we’re waiting for is when is she going to wake up and realize how powerful she is, that she’s a creator, that she can do it. And as soon as the character sees it, it sparks something in us and makes us come to life because we identify with them. Maybe I’m a creator. Maybe I’m powerful. Maybe I can do things I didn’t think I could do. LINDSEY: The truth the avoider needs to understand is that right now is what I can control. Elsa learns that fear is hard to control — but love? You can control that. We’re in control when we’re acting in love toward ourselves and toward other people. That’s the shift she makes. What I want right now is this relationship with my sister. What I want right now is to have love guiding me instead of fear. That’s what she needed, and that’s what the people around her needed. The Quitter: Simba (The Lion King) AUDREY: Let’s move on to the quitter. Who did you choose? LINDSEY: The character I chose for the quitter is Simba from The Lion King. The quitter starts going, but then it gets really hard and they stop. We see Simba’s dad showing him the kingdom — he’s so excited, ‘I just can’t wait to be king.’ And then his dad is murdered. His uncle tells him to run, that everyone will hate him, that he has to get out. And so he quits. Hakuna Matata. Goes off and lives this carefree life. LINDSEY: But it’s not as his real self. His power and potential are snuffed out. It’s a mistaken, distorted identity. He’s avoiding the pain of who he’s actually supposed to become by abandoning the path. AUDREY: And then — Rafiki. That moment in the movie. LINDSEY: Yes. We’re right back to identity. Simba has to remember who he is. He is the son of a king. He is the rightful king. He has to take responsibility — and he hasn’t been, wandering around doing Hakuna Matata. He has to remember that identity and go back to claim his spot. That’s why we love the ending. He becomes who he was meant to be, reaches his potential. LINDSEY: The tool for the quitter is that they can practice the principles, rely on the truth they know, and patiently wait. Because principles work. Baby steps. Principles always work. I know that if I take responsibility, remember who I am, work my way back, renegotiate the relationships that were damaged — those baby steps will get me back to where I need to be. And Simba does that. It’s so powerful to watch. The Remaining Victim Types: A Quick Overview AUDREY: Give us just a little context on the Disney characters you chose for the rest of the victim types. LINDSEY: For the martyr, this was a tricky one I’m still working on. We have Mother Gothel from Tangled. I was hesitant to use her because she’s the villain — and I want us to see that victim types aren’t villains, they’re just our natural tendencies. But she’s very much ‘look at all the things I do for you, Rapunzel, and you’re not grateful, I’ve suffered and sacrificed everything for you.’ I’m still working on some other ideas for that one. LINDSEY: For the doormat, I chose Cinderella. She’s loving and kindhearted, but she’s afraid of conflict. She waits to be rescued. She doesn’t want to stand up for herself. But by the end of the movie, she learns her worth — that she’s worthy and valuable, that she can be assertive and have boundaries. That’s why we love the ending. She starts out as a doormat. People walk all over her and she allows it. LINDSEY: The dummy is a work in progress — I’ve been talking to my kids about it all day. The dummy claims they cannot solve their problems. They want somebody to rescue them or just make it go away. The character we landed on is Kuzco from The Emperor’s New Groove — the emperor who turns into a llama. He doesn’t want to accept responsibility and claims he doesn’t know how to solve things. And as he’s doing that, he’s creating more and more problems. He has to learn something fascinating: that people don’t actually like him. He has to have an identity shift in how he sees himself in relationship to others. He sees himself as superior — it’s all ego. But other people are resources. We have to be willing to ask for help and learn how to rely on people in the right way. LINDSEY: The last one is the chameleon, and I chose the Genie from Aladdin. He’s just whatever you need him to be — he’s forgotten who he really is. And Aladdin is almost the same — he shows up as someone completely different so that Jasmine will like him, afraid to expose his real identity. But that’s not what Jasmine liked. And in the end, it’s not what saves him either. It’s understanding who he actually is, and how his real strengths are exactly what’s needed to solve the problem. Closing Thoughts and Challenge AUDREY: Of course, we watch these stories because we’re waiting for the transformation — and that’s what Lindsey and I are passionate about in this work. This framework has changed everything for us. The ability to self-identify when we’re playing a victim role means we might still do it for a bit, but we can often catch ourselves. We have common language in our homes. Our families can help catch us. Every bit of information we glean around this empowers us to be different, to work our way out of the drama cycle and be creators instead. AUDREY: This is what we’re doing all year inside our Mothers of Creation community. We have our in-person event in the fall — September 26th in Provo, Utah. We’re going to spend the whole day talking about problem stories and victim types, reframing those stories, moving out of victimhood into a creator orientation, building creator declarations, and so much more. And the community is open now — as soon as you sign up for the event, you get instant access to Lindsey’s trainings and everything we’ve been building together. AUDREY: Our challenge to you today: as you watch Disney movies or any movie, look for a victim type. Watch how the character plays into it, what problems it causes, and how they come across as a persecutor to the people around them. Then watch how the transformation happens — when their identity shifts, when they come to see that they truly are a creator, when they learn the truth about who they are and what they’re capable of, and become powerful once again. AUDREY: Thanks for joining us today. If this is of interest to you and you want to know more, we would love to see you in the community. And we would love to meet you in person this fall. Visit themissiondrivenmom.com and sign up for the Mothers of Creation Conference. Thank you so much for being here. We hope this is helpful, valuable, and motivating for you — and we will see you next time.
EP 159 You're probably not a victim. Except you kind of are.
Resources from the Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th David Emerald's book, Three Vital Questions MDM Academy Most of us would never describe ourselves as victims. And yet — if someone asked you where you feel resentful, or stuck, or like things just keep happening to you no matter what you do — you'd probably have an answer pretty quickly. That's what this week's episode is about. Lindsay Wright is back, and she's walking us through something called the victim types — six different ways that we show up in a victim orientation without ever realizing that's what we're doing. Not because we're weak or broken, but because these patterns were useful once. They helped us manage fear, avoid pain, survive hard seasons. The problem is they also keep us stuck. AI-GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction and Context AUDREY: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of the Mission Driven Mom. I’m so excited for you to join me today as I have a great conversation with Lindsey Wright. Now, most of us don’t think of ourselves as victims, except that we do often show up as one of six or seven victim types in our real lives without realizing that we’re doing that. And that’s what we’re going to deep dive into today. So Lindsey, thanks for being here. Super excited to talk to you. Just as a little bit of background, let me explain the context of what we’re going to talk about today. The drama triangle is something that not a lot of people know about, but it’s an insanely helpful framework for seeing how you’re getting stuck in your life. There’s a persecutor, a victim, and a rescuer in this drama triangle that we all kind of fall into. And yet in the end, when we’re in drama, we often feel stuck because we are actually being a victim without realizing that we’re being a victim. We call this problem orientation and we call it our problem story. Now you and I — if you think about it for a minute — you’ll realize that you know plenty of people in your world who complain and struggle with things that just aren’t a problem for you, that that would just not be an issue for you in your life. Well, that’s what we call a problem story because it’s not a problem for everybody. It’s a problem for you, or it’s a problem for them, because of who they are, because of how they think, because of what’s showing up in their life. And there are certain reasons why that’s a problem story, which we can talk about another time. But this is the framework for what we’re going to talk about today: that we get stuck in our lives in problem stories. Maybe it’s a rebellious child. Maybe it’s the loss of a job. Maybe it’s a spouse that asks for a divorce. Or maybe it’s something simpler, like you just can’t seem to get the weight off and you’ve been trying for years and you are sick and tired of it. You just incessantly complain about how you can’t lose the weight because you’re a victim to your weight. And so these problem stories keep us frustrated and irritated and angry, or whatever the case might be. And we want to talk to you about how you might be showing up in this problem story as a certain type of victim. Lindsey’s going to help us understand why knowing a little bit more about what victimhood is and the different types of victims can be insanely helpful as a catalyst to help us see what we’re doing to ourselves a little more clearly, and be the first step toward getting out of this problem story and getting the car back on the road and moving again. So as a little bit of background, if you’ve been around very long, you probably recognize Lindsey’s face. She’s been with the Mission Driven Mom from the beginning. She’s phenomenal. She’s brilliant. She helped vet content for the Academy, helped get it built, has mentored hundreds and hundreds of women for us, has spoken on our stages, and I just can’t even begin to say how much I love her and how incredible she is. She has taken on the job of mentoring women who are going to be attending our Mothers of Creation event this fall. Bless her for that. We have an online community and we talk about these victim types in detail. Women are mentored in them in preparation for coming to this event. So she’s going to share with all of you today a little bit of what’s been going on in that community and why it makes such a huge difference. So the first question I want to ask you today, Lindsey, is: why do the victim types matter? Why do they matter, do you think, in general? And specifically, why do they matter to you? Why the Victim Types Matter Lindsey: The victim types matter because they just help to bring awareness to something we might not realize that we’re doing, or patterns of thought and behavior that we don’t realize that we’re perpetuating. And so there are these victim types. I think if I were just to ask you, “Where are you being a victim in your life today?” your automatic response would be, “Well, I’m not,” because we don’t want to believe that about ourselves. But if I were to ask you, “Is there anywhere in your life that you feel resentful?” that might give you some clues, something that you could think about. And then if I were to say, “Well, there’s a way of being a victim that the feeling you get is this resentment,” and tie that back to the specific victim type, I think that’s a little bit more helpful in helping us to see these things, these things that we’re doing in our lives. AUDREY: Why does it matter to you personally, then? Have you had that experience? Lindsey: Yes. It’s so fascinating to me. The more that I learn about the victim orientation and the creator orientation, and I look for that in my life and I find it. But then — because I don’t just stay there, and that’s part of what we’re doing in the fall. We don’t want to just stay in the victim orientation. We want to learn how to get out of it. But awareness is that first step. And so when we become aware and I can start to see those things in my life, what’s happened is that I’ve been able to make changes in my life. I’m not stuck in some of the places that I was stuck in before. I feel more empowered. My relationships are better. Like, everything is better. My thinking is more clear when I can notice these things about myself and then also know what to do when I see them. AUDREY: Agreed. And we’ll get into this here in just a second. But just for me, knowing the title of what I’m doing — of how I’m being a victim — helps me see why I should just do the opposite of that. And there’s so much rich context that you’ve helped build around all of these victim types, and you can explain that to us. But just the title for me is so helpful because then it gives context around my attitudes, my behaviors, the way I’m approaching things. And it’s hugely motivating because I don’t want to be a doormat or I don’t want to be a chameleon. I don’t want to be that thing. And so it stimulates me to want to get out of that victim mindset and be different. Lindsey: Yes. And when you can name something, then you can start to create order. That is part of the process of creation — you have to name it. AUDREY: That’s a great point. Identify it, and then you can move on to the next steps. Yes, super helpful. All right. So let’s head into this. Can you give us a little more context around how you would answer the question: what is a victim type? What Is a Victim Type? Lindsey: So all victims have a few things in common. All victims have something that they’re afraid of. All victims don’t want to take responsibility for something. All victims blame. There are certain characteristics of just this victim orientation in general. But these types of victims are helpful because they help us to see some of the nuances. They help us to see that there are a few different flavors of being a victim. And they’re a little bit different in the thoughts. So one of the things I’ve done is I’ve tried to connect a thought and a feeling to each of these victim types to help us understand it a little bit better. And so the thought and the feeling, there’s nuance there. And then the tool and the truth that they need to get out of it is also a little bit different. So when we can isolate this certain particular flavor of victim that we are participating in, then it’s helpful because then we know the next step. We know how to get out of it. AUDREY: Yeah. So with that in mind, let’s just walk through each of these and you can kind of give us some context and framework with some of the things that you feel like are most vital to understand about each one. The Avoider Lindsey: So one of the first victims that we talked about in our Mothers of Creation community is the avoider. And I know from conversations that you and I have had, we both really struggle with the avoider. AUDREY: Yep. Lindsey: And I want to say that it’s not — we’re not bad people because we have this tendency. It’s just something that we do. It’s something that maybe we picked up — just the way we handle pain and struggle. It worked for us then, but now we know better, and so we’re going to do better. AUDREY: So when you were just talking, Lindsey, it made me think that maybe for our listeners one of the things that might be helpful to think about is that one aspect of the victim type is the way that you respond to fear. So something is happening that you don’t want to have happen, that you don’t like, that you’re afraid of. So what do you do about it? How do you respond to it? And like you said, for me, one of the common ways that I respond to fear is to avoid. But then the problem is that later on I look back and regret that I didn’t do something. And maybe doing something would still have been doing nothing, but at least it would have been a conscious choice instead of a reaction. Because I feel like the victim types are reactionary. Maybe that’s a reaction to those feelings of fear, maybe it’s a reaction to other things too, but anyway — so go ahead and give us some examples so that we can have some context. Lindsey: So the avoider — there are four possible reactions. You just reminded me when we were talking about reactions. And we’re all, I think, familiar with these: you can fight, you can flee, you can freeze, and there’s a fourth one that I learned about from David Emerald, and that is to appease. So you’re going to appease the people in the situation so that that conflict can go away. And so — take the avoider, the victim type of the avoider, and their reaction is to freeze. That’s the reaction. And they’re reacting to an anxiety that they have. They’re not necessarily reacting to the problem itself, they’re reacting to the way they feel about it. And they think, “I can’t do this. I can’t face this. This is too hard,” and so they freeze. Like you said, they don’t address the problem. And well, what happens when you don’t address problems? They get bigger. Then the anxiety gets bigger. AUDREY: Yeah. If you don’t face that anxiety it will just continue to get bigger and bigger. Lindsey: Yes. And so that’s where we get the avoider. They’re just avoiding those hard things that make them feel uncomfortable or overwhelmed. So what other aspects of the avoider can you share? The avoider feels stuck. And a lot of victims will feel stuck, but the avoider really feels stuck because they froze, right? They’re not moving forward. And they’re really afraid — say you have a relationship where there’s a hard conversation that needs to happen. The avoider is afraid that if they have this hard conversation, first of all that it’s going to be really uncomfortable — which is true, it is going to be really uncomfortable — that they’re going to lose control, that they’re going to lose the security, and maybe they’ll lose that relationship. So they’re reacting to that fear, to that anxiety, instead of making a proactive choice to deal with something. And isn’t there a truth that each one of the victim types needs to know? So what is it for avoiders? So the avoider needs to know that right now is what I can control. Sometimes an avoider will do something that seems like action, that seems like they’re addressing the problem, but actually isn’t. So they start to get into the future, they start to make plans. Say the problem is that your house is always a mess. What does the avoider do? Well, instead of addressing the actual problem, “Oh, I’m going to plan. I’m going to make job charts. I’m going to set up incentive systems.” They spend hours and hours doing all this and it feels like action. AUDREY: Oh, that’s so me. Yes. Lindsey: But I’m not actually — it’s not going to change anything. And how do we know? Because a week into this new job system, it’s not working anyway. Not that no one should ever plan, but if you’re feeling reactionary and freezing as an avoider victim to a hard situation that you feel anxious about, if you remember the truth that right now is what you can control, then you will just get busy cleaning the house. Just clean the house. In the five hours it took you to create that new job system, what could you have done? AUDREY: Yeah. And then some of the anxiety starts to be alleviated as you take action and you remember that you have more control than you think you do. And you can be planning in your mind while you’re cleaning, I suppose. Lindsey: Sure, yeah. The difference is — because planning is good, we all need to begin with the end in mind — it’s when you’re using the planning to avoid the doing, that’s when it’s a problem. AUDREY: I can see that in myself, that as I avoided, I liked to make plans, but actually nothing was happening right now. Yes. Lindsey: Yes. And one of the tools that we teach is radical acceptance of your current circumstances. Maybe my house is a little messier than I would like it to be because I’m a very busy mom. Maybe I have young children, or maybe I’ve just had a health crisis, or whatever. And so accepting where I am now, the season that I’m in now, and then controlling what I can control right now, here in the present. That’s how we can make that shift. AUDREY: I love it. Okay, let’s contrast that one with another one and go through each of those, and then maybe we can finish out by just touching on all of them so people just have some frame of reference for each of the types. The Quitter Lindsey: Okay. I want to do the quitter next because just like the avoider, the quitter’s reaction is to flee. They want to get away from it. They don’t even want to try. They just want to get as far away from it as possible. So what might that look like? It could look like not getting out of bed in the morning to take care of your family. Or think of a young child — I have a young daughter who struggles with some things, so she just doesn’t want to do them. “It’s too hard.” She just doesn’t do it. So the avoider is kind of pretending like they’re doing something about it because they’re making all these plans, but the quitter just says, “I’m done.” They’re just out. They just quit the thing — quit the sport, quit the lessons, quit the conversations, quit the relationship. Just walk away instead of engaging. Yeah. AUDREY: Okay, I think I see that. And what are the other aspects of the quitter as compared to the avoider? Lindsey: They’re not necessarily thinking, “I can’t face this,” but more like, “Why do these things always happen to me?” or “This is too hard.” So a little more self-pity. We’ve got another victim type that I think really embodies the self-pity, though I think all victims to a certain extent feel badly about themselves. But the quitter will start and then decide it’s too hard. The avoider won’t engage at all. The quitter starts and then stops. And it comes from some misbeliefs: that I’m not capable, that the world is too hard, that the world is fixed, that there’s nothing that I can control. AUDREY: I loved your example about the music lessons, because most of us have maybe experienced that, or our children have, and we can see the pattern: we do this thing and then it gets hard and we quit. That actually is super helpful, because I was just thinking about two different kids of mine and different experiences that happened in their past when they were in lessons. One kept saying, “I want to stay in, I love it, I’m going to do better next week,” but then didn’t practice. So the avoider: making plans for the future, saying that they want this, but just not digging in and taking control of today. And then in other circumstances a child would sign up and go like mad for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, but it would be unsustainable, or it was just so much harder than they thought it was going to be, and so they would just quit. So I can see the differences. In both cases they’re not showing up for themselves in something that they said they wanted, and not taking responsibility for what they can control and moving forward with something methodical happening. But they did manage an uncomfortable situation differently. Lindsey: The quitter’s deep fear or anxiety is that they’re going to make a mistake. And they’re so afraid of making a mistake that they’re just going to stop now and then they don’t have to deal with that. So it kind of sounds a little bit like the avoider, and they are similar — they’re all victims. We’re just teasing out some of the little different nuances. But what the quitter needs to know is that they can practice the principles, that they can do the things that they know will work, and wait for the results. They can patiently keep moving forward to the best of their abilities and trust that as they do — as you practice the piano every day — it’s going to get better. It’s going to get easier. Principles will always deliver if you’re persistent. And the tool for the quitter is that they can practice those baby steps. Sometimes you or your child had this idea that they are going to be the best pianist in the whole world. And they want to be perfect now. And that’s why they get frustrated — because they imagined in their mind that it’s going to be great, that they’re just going to achieve it and it’s going to be easy. They don’t realize the work. AUDREY: And the child I was thinking of as a quitter — that is so fascinating because that exactly corresponds. They have an idea, they get excited, and it’s too big, it’s too much too soon. They’re not realistic about the process that it’s going to require and the daily choices that have to be made. And then because they’re here and the goal is so far out of reach after a few attempts, it just feels too impossible to get there. So they’re done. They just quit. Lindsey: Yes. But if we would just remember baby steps. Nobody is going to be the best at anything the first time they try it. Just baby steps. Just putting one foot in front of the other. That’s how we get there. We just have to remember those baby steps. The Remaining Victim Types: A Brief Overview AUDREY: Oh my goodness, I can totally see that. So we’re getting a little bit low on time. Let’s just run through the rest — give us the titles and just a little bit of context around the rest of these victim types. Lindsey: Sure. So we talked about the avoider and the quitter. We have the martyr, and I think moms especially relate to this one. The martyr uses suffering as proof of their love or their value. If they’re suffering, then you know that they are a really good person. And I don’t think they’re making it up — I think they actually feel like they’re suffering. But isn’t it kind of like wearing that suffering on your sleeve to garner attention or empathy? AUDREY: Yeah. Or carrying this chip on her shoulder. “Why am I the only one that cares this much about this thing?” “No one says thank you. No one helps with the dishes.” Which is a way of avoiding responsibility — right? Because to train and educate and organize so that people will participate takes real work. Lindsey: So the martyr just stews in resentment and self-pity. That’s really one where we see the self-pity come through. And then we have the doormat, which is what it sounds like. The doormat’s fear is conflict. They don’t want it, so they’re an appeaser. We talked about those four reaction types. The doormat is an appeaser. They don’t want the conflict, so they’re just going to appease, which means that they are going to abandon their own boundaries in order to avoid conflict. We just go along to get along. And then they just get walked all over and they start to feel exhausted and hopeless. AUDREY: And it can make the situation — I guess any of these make the situation — it’s all drama. And like you’ve talked about avoiding responsibility, but I feel like a big part of what all of these victim types are avoiding is the work of thinking and taking responsibility for actual, true problem solving. “I’m going to just not think about it and avoid it.” “I’m just going to give up because it’s too hard.” “I’m just going to lay down on the floor and let everyone take care of me.” “I’m just going to do whatever you think.” These are all ways of avoiding deep pondering and the work of finding truths that could liberate you — of telling yourself the truth. Lindsey: Victims do not tell themselves the truth. That’s for sure. AUDREY: Great point. Okay, a couple more. Lindsey: I may add a few more before our celebration event because I’ve been thinking about these things. But a few more today. We have the dummy. The dummy either fights or freezes, and they’re the ones who don’t feel like they can solve their problem. So they’re inviting a rescuer — somebody come solve this problem for me because I’m not capable of solving it. Or they just want you to stop talking about it. “I don’t know what to do.” End of story. End of conversation. AUDREY: That actually reminds me of someone. A lot of times when I’ve tried to have problem-solving or root-getting conversations, it’s: “I don’t know” — silence. “I don’t know” — silence. “I don’t know” — silence. That’s a good way of avoiding responsibility. And maybe part of that is — I mean, I think they all have their issues with self-image — but in this particular case, they just don’t see themselves as capable problem solvers. Lindsey: Yes. And then there was one more, and that is the chameleon. This is an interesting one. The doormat abandons their boundaries to avoid conflict. The chameleon abandons their identity to gain belonging. This is the people-pleasing person. Whatever group they’re in, they assume a different identity to fit in with the group. And the problem with that? They don’t know who they are, and nobody else knows who they are either. How can we interact with each other if nobody knows who you are? AUDREY: Wow, that’s profound, Lindsey. The First Step: Awareness and Naming AUDREY: While you were talking about this, I just realized that the inverse of this can also be super helpful. Just in those titles alone, women will recognize themselves. But then the next thing they can say is: “And when I do that, I’m being a victim.” And that is so helpful because you recognize that it’s not a helpful or healthy way of being, it’s not where you want to stay. And as you understand these different aspects — the feelings that accompany each type, the truth that goes along with it, and the tools that they need — then if they can identify that behavior and recognize that as a victim way of being, they can walk themselves back out of some of that with those tools. So as we finish up, what’s the first step? What is something that you recommend that women do when they’re just becoming oriented to these victim types? Lindsey: Well, I’m going to quote David Emerald. He says — and this is from his book, Three Vital Questions — “This transformation begins by recognizing one’s own drama.” So that is the first step: just to become aware. To know first of all that there’s a victim orientation and a creator orientation, and to name it. Have those things to name it, and then start seeing it. That’s what’s been really fun as I’ve kind of done a deep dive into this material — as I’m in it and I’m thinking about these names, I can see them. I can see them in movies, in books, in relationships, and especially in myself. So that’s what we’re doing in the community right now: trying to develop this awareness so that we can see it more quickly. And then the more quickly you can see it, the faster you can change it. AUDREY: Wow. That’s powerful. That is awesome. Invitation to the Mothers of Creation Conference AUDREY: Well, if you can see — I think anyone listening can see that Lindsey knows her stuff, and she continues to flesh this out. There’s an in-depth training that we did a few months ago that lives in the community. There’s ongoing mentoring in that community. Lindsey, I think you have another training coming up here pretty soon, and all of those are recorded in that community. But the best part is — if this has been interesting and stimulating to you, if you want to understand it better — we would invite you to sign up for our Mothers of Creation MDM Celebration that will happen September 26th in Provo, Utah, in a beautiful big ballroom hall in a library. We will spend a whole day together talking about all these things in great depth. And leading up to that, the moment that you sign up you will have instant access to that community and to Lindsey. She will answer all your questions. You can watch these past recordings, you can attend this upcoming training, and you can begin to orient yourself around this whole chart — which is available in there. She’s adding to and fleshing it out and improving it all the time. And you can begin to understand and name for yourself how you are showing up in your life as a victim, why you don’t want to do that, and how you can work your way out of it. Just understanding these victim types is a huge, mega tool set for that. But then at our event in September, we will walk you through the entire framework for going from problem orientation and problem story to being the creator in your own life through disconnecting and reframing that problem story. So we hope that you will join us for all of those things, and we can meet you in September. But again, thank you for joining us. Hopefully understanding a little bit about these victim types has been helpful for all of you, and we will see you next time.
EP 158 A Husband's Take: What Saved Our Marriage
Resources Mentioned in the Episode: Free Training: How to Stop Feeling Powerless and Become the Expert in Your Own Life Seven Habits of Highly Effective People The 6 Geniuses I asked my husband Blaine a question at the end of our podcast conversation this week. I asked him what all of our work in learning to understand and live principles has been worth to our family. And he got quiet for a second, and then he said he thought it was “immeasurable.” That there “are too many benefits to name.” Then he said something that stopped me in my tracks: “I think we still have a family because of it.” This week on the podcast, Blaine is here. And we are talking about our marriage — the real version. The rocky years, the finances, the addiction, the therapy that didn't work, the day things got bad enough that we both finally woke up. We are sharing it because I know there are women listening who are right where I was — committed to their marriage, committed to their family, but feeling stuck and completely powerless to change anything. AI Generated Transcript Introduction Welcome to the Mission Driven Mom podcast. This podcast is for moms just like you, who want to learn how to glorify God through finding and embracing true principles, discovering and developing your greatest gifts, and using them to serve your family and community. Alright, welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. I'm super grateful to have you with us today, and the best part is that my husband is here. We are going to talk about him and me and our marriage and our family, and what it has to do with you and your marriage and your family. So we're just going to start today by talking. Blaine, tell us a little bit about yourself. Just who you are, what some of your hobbies are, what you enjoy doing, so they can start to become familiar with who you are. Meet Blaine Blaine: I'm Blaine. Nice to virtually meet all of you. I am married to Audrey, and we have six kids. I have a life of sales and construction experience, and I love hobbies. I love to hike, I love to read. Shakespeare's my favorite. I play the viola, I'm in an orchestra, and I love to learn languages. And remodeling. I do love construction. Audrey: So much. And gardening. Blaine: That is true. Yeah. So many things. But I like construction more than gardening, though, to be honest. Audrey: Yes. Alright, so then tell us a little bit about how long we've been married and some of the words that you might use to talk about our marriage and about me. Blaine: We've been married 32 years. Is that right? Audrey: Yes. That's good. Blaine: And words about you? And us? I would describe us as people that are really trying to find out the truth. Our mission statement is "The truth shall make you free," so that's what our lens is always trying to find. If we have something that is difficult in our lives, it takes us sometimes a long time, sometimes it doesn't take very long, to try to find out what's the truth that's really going to solve this problem or make us so we can accomplish this thing that we want to do. So that's kind of our pursuit always. And then we find out sometimes we went down the wrong path. We didn't do it quite right, or we could improve it, and so then we try to improve it from there and level it up even higher. Audrey: That's true. Would you agree? Except it hasn't always been that way. Blaine: Oh. I think we've always been the kind of people that want to improve as individuals, but we didn't always have the tools and the language that you just used, for sure. Audrey: No. And I think I would also say just about us, just our marriage in general. To describe our marriage, I would say that we've always been good friends, and we've always really had a lot in common and had a lot of chemistry and enjoyed each other's company, but it hasn't always been easy to navigate the marriage. And there have been rocky and rough times for sure. Blaine: It's true. I've been happily married for 32 years, and I think you're at 16 now, right? Audrey: Yeah, that's your favorite thing to say. It's unfortunately true. Blaine: Which makes it sound like our marital problems were all your fault. That's definitely not true. But we had good enough times that you stuck in there with me. We did have a lot of good things that we did over the years and good times together. And we've always respected each other quite a bit. And we were very motivated to keep the marriage together, to figure things out, but we didn't always know the way. The Early Years: Challenges and Struggles Audrey: So let's go back. We want to talk today to couples who are maybe in some of the same situations that we were in when we were younger. Couples that love each other, that want to stay married but don't always know the way forward. Not because we have a lot of marital advice, but because we have an academy that empowers and arms women and mothers and wives to know how to better navigate and negotiate themselves. So we thought we would just take a little trip in time today with you and go back through some of our experiences together and how the concepts and principles and language and tools that we have had the privilege of putting into our academy made a difference for us, and specifically how they made a difference for me, and through me made a difference for us. How would you describe me and what I was going through before this all began when we just had our three little ones? Blaine: I thought everything was hunky-dory, except for all the problems we had. But you... I thought you were all chillax, everything was good. But then things weren't good, and you were like... I just remember you walked around saying, "I'm so intellectually bored. I need to be intellectually stimulated." And I kept saying, "What does that mean?" And you just had this constant frustration. You were longing for something, and I understand what it is now, but I didn't know then. Audrey: Well, neither did I. That's why you kept going around asking. I mean, you asked it all the time. I wanted some depth. "I just need something. What do I need? What do I need? What do I need?" I wanted some mental challenge. Blaine: And so I remember that. With my addiction, we both struggled a lot. I struggled a lot more, I think. But how to not take it personally... You were always really good to me and patient with me, but I think you still struggled more at the beginning than you did later on. Audrey: What do you mean? Blaine: Struggling with being married to an addict. You had no idea what to do. And then later on you felt more empowered and you handled it better. Audrey: What else would you say about that time in our life? Other challenges we had going on? Blaine: Finances. How to handle finances. How to parent the best we could. You had relationships that sometimes were real sticky and you weren't sure what was going on and how to handle them with extended family and even some friends. That caused a lot of heartache at times. Audrey: Yeah. I felt like at the time, and this is one of the reasons why when we found this education and this pathway forward of something to do and try, I just knew that we were both in it. We weren't going anywhere, and I knew that we were both trying. I mean, you were so dedicated to me staying home with the kids. I said many times, "Should I go work?" And you were like, "No, no, no. I will figure it out. I want you to feel like you can stay home with the kids and be there, especially when they're young." So we were in it in that regard, but I also felt like we lacked unity in a lot of ways. Like, we weren't really always on the same page financially. We didn't actually talk about parenting strategies much. In navigating our relationship, we fought way more than I want to admit. Blaine: Yeah, we did fight. But I think our commitment to God and our commitment to each other really anchored us and kept us afloat. Audrey: I feel like one of the most important things, like hanging on to faith, is that it kept us from expecting the other person to fill every hole in our lives. Like, we understood at least that much that there were certain spiritual needs and other needs that God could only meet for us or that we could only meet for ourselves. I think there was a little bit of understanding of that. I don't remember us having arguments about, "Well, it's your fault," this or that. But on the other hand, when we felt rotten, it was easy to blame each other. Like, "You're the reason I feel rotten," or, "Our finances are the reason," or, "Extended family is the reason." Blaine: And I was kind of fragile because of my ego. So you would bring up finances and I'd blow up because I was embarrassed that I wasn't taking better care of you and the family. We didn't have more money and more things. And that was tough for me. And it was tough for you because then there was an argument. You're like, "Why do you always blow up? We're just trying to have a conversation." Audrey: Yeah. And then I would cry, and then I would want to blame you, and sometimes I would. I didn't have any idea how I was contributing or what it was that I could do about it or the different perception changes that I could have. Looking back and kind of being in that moment again with you, the best way I know how to describe it is really just feeling so powerless. Like, I go to church, I say my prayers, I live a good life, I do good things, I followed the prescription of marry and have kids, and now this was my dream, but it doesn't feel like I'm living in my dream. It just feels messy and confusing and hard, and I just didn't have good tools to know how to see it differently and be different myself. The Wake-Up Call Audrey: The big moment, the wake-up call, we would probably both say is... Blaine: When you slapped me. Audrey: Yeah. What do you remember about that day? Blaine: I remember being a normal man. Things were fine. I've learned that the wife feels it a lot more intensely than the husband, and things were fine from where I stood. And then when you slapped me, I was like, "Oh, wait a minute. Wait, there's a major problem here." That's when I woke up and thought, "Oh, we're in trouble." Serious trouble. So that's why I prayed, and that's why I found a counselor and went and took you there, because I didn't want to lose you. It's ironic in the sense that we don't know what we're doing. We love this person. We want to be with them, but we're doing things to push them away. That's the irony. Blaine: But when you learn some principles and some things that empower you, then all of a sudden it just changes everything. You're like, "Okay, well now I'm not pushing them away. I'm actually drawing them towards me because I have these tools that I didn't know before." Audrey: And part of it, I know, is that we didn't understand who we were. You didn't understand who you were. Blaine: Yeah. And I didn't understand who I was. And so we're blaming the other for something that's impossible for them to do. They're not wired that way. All the times you would say, "Why don't you just plan something?" I was like, "I'm not a planner." I mean, it just doesn't come natural to me at all. And so once you realize that, then almost instantly things got a little bit better because you're like, "Oh, he doesn't ever think about it until you bring it up." So that self-discovery was really helpful. Therapy: What Helped and What Didn't Audrey: And you know, ironically, what a lot of listeners might not know is that you actually have a marriage and family therapy degree. You actually went through that degree program. You actually worked with couples for a couple of years. So you really do have the inside track. Not only did we go as a couple to marriage therapy, but then you turned around and were on the other side of it. Blaine: Ben Hardy says something really interesting about therapy. It's very helpful for a myriad of reasons, but it's backward-looking. Therapy really focuses very heavily on the past, and it can be very helpful to look at your past and rewrite those stories to be more empowering, but it's limited in that regard. And what happens in marriage therapy is that it's the least successful of all therapeutic approaches, largely because you're in the room with somebody else and it's easy to blame. Audrey: Yeah. And like you said, when we went to therapy, communication was the biggest emphasis. And after we'd gone every week for a year, I remember the day we pulled up and we kind of looked at each other and were like, "I really don't think she has anything else to teach us. We've kind of cycled through. She's talking about the same things again, and I just don't think this can take us any further." It gave us a couple of tools. That was pretty much it. The biggest benefit of therapy was that Blaine called. It was the fact that you called up and you wanted to go, and you were willing to go and spend the money, that I knew, "Oh, he's committed. He really does want to make this work. He really is willing to do whatever we need to do." And that was hugely helpful to just know that. But in terms of that making a huge impact on our marriage, ironically, it just didn't. Blaine: And that's part of the reason I don't do marriage counseling anymore, because it was so frustrating. They would sit there and blame the other person. I had some remarkable stories where people changed, and it was awesome. But I also remember one time a lady came in by herself, and I said, "Look, I have a question for you. Are you just coming here so you can check off the box to say you went to therapy so that you can then divorce your husband?" And she just... I nailed it. She didn't want to be married anymore. She didn't want to do any work to change. She just didn't want to be married to him anymore, and she wanted to be able to say, "I was the good spouse. I went to therapy." Blaine: But I found also that you were doing MDM and having greater impact on marriages than I was having. And you weren't working with couples. You were working with individuals. And people would say, "You saved my marriage." And I was like, "You saved their marriage? What'd you do?" But there was no marriage therapy. And it's because one plus one is two, but if you change one, then the answer's no longer two. If you become a better you, the whole relationship gets better. And that's hard to do because it's easier to blame. It's easier to say it's their fault than to look at your own stuff. But that's where all the empowerment comes from. That's where you feel so much better because you feel like you actually have answers. You actually feel empowered and feel like you can do something instead of just letting whatever happens to you happen to you. Finding the Education That Changed Everything Audrey: So we'd done the therapy. It hadn't really helped. What we knew is that we were both committed to this marriage, and we wanted to figure it out, and I was really grateful to know that, but we just didn't have answers. And then here I am, wandering around the house, not knowing how to manage the extended family situations, the pornography issues, you were gone a lot, finances and all the things. So I just wanted answers, and I felt lost in motherhood. I didn't have a huge sense of self even before marriage. I wandered around a major university for three years, went and did mission work in Europe, and came home and married. But being married, I knew that I loved you, and I knew I loved the kids, and I didn't want to go anywhere, but I needed some kind of something. And I didn't want to go get a full-time career. I thought about going back to the university, but I was going to have to go to school full time. So we find this classical liberal education because of our sister-in-law. I'm talking to her about this. For a year I've been wandering around the house saying, "You don't know how to help me. You don't know what to tell me. I don't know what else to try. I've tried courses. I've read books. We've been to therapy. I don't know what else to try." So then we find this little school. I know one of the things that women come back to us with in terms of wanting to join the academy is that a lot of husbands will say things like, "Well, if you're going to spend money on yourself and on an education, it should be so that you can earn more money for our family." I know that we were back and forth about it a lot, and it was a huge financial sacrifice for us. It was going to take time. It was going to take money, and I felt I had done my due diligence and researched it, but I wanted it. Where were you at in that moment? How did you feel about spending the money and me taking the time? Blaine: I just felt bad for you because I knew how frustrated you had been and how you were longing for something, but we didn't know what it was. And every time I paid tuition, I was like... It was all out of pocket. No loans or anything. Unaccredited. But you know, looking back, I would have done it in a heartbeat. Because with the kind of education that we have now, ironically, I think people are able to earn more money. They can think deeper. And if they do need a certain credential, they'll be better. They'll understand things better. They'll be able to fit the career better with who they are because they'll understand themselves better. But then all I knew was that my wife needed something, and let's try this. And I was quite intrigued, to be honest. They were talking about Cicero and Dante and Shakespeare and Dickens, and Plato and Aristotle. So it was intriguing to me, but I was still worried about the money, for sure. Self-Discovery: The First Principles Audrey: So we get started. I take classes online, and then we have that live class a couple of years in. You show up, we're reading Seven Habits, and we realize we have no family mission statement. We aren't even thinking about it that way. Blaine: That was you. You're the planner. You're the one that's like, "We don't have this." Audrey: I was like, "I didn't think about it. The corporations have mission statements, right?" And of course we're thinking about personal mission statements, and then I realize we don't have one. And it was a principle that I was able to latch onto that felt like, "Oh, this is actually something that we could do that would start to build more unity. We could have a shared vision." And it was Covey that was talking about principles. He even mentioned natural law, but I wasn't keyed into it until later when we read Locke, and that's really when the concept of natural law really presented itself as this unique, original idea that I had been totally unfamiliar with. And so one thing led to another. Even though those college classes didn't introduce me to most of the things that are in the academy now, it introduced me to frameworks and concepts and turned me on to the types of learning tools I needed to gain. I was taught and mentored in how to lead Socratic discussion, and I started to understand the kinds of readings that you should engage in and why, and how you would go about doing that. And then as I dove deep into the natural law and we got this mission statement of "the truth will make you free," then eventually somewhere along the line we connected the dots. There must be financial principles then. There must be addiction recovery principles then. Blaine: Yeah. And even when you were doing your marriage therapy, you were like, "Well, there must be marriage principles." And you ran your whole program on those 12 marital principles. But I think one of the attractions to me was to see your confidence rise. It skyrocketed. Because you were in your element, in your strengths. And just the light that you had, and the impact it was starting to have on you, not just the confidence, which was huge, but how the things you were thinking about and the connections you were making attracted me more to it. I was like, "Man, there's some real meat here. There are some real answers that we're starting to get." And so it was easy to pull me into it because of the impact it was already having on you. Audrey: Wow. That's cool. I don't know if I've ever heard you say that that way. How These Principles Changed Our Marriage Audrey: As we finish up here, let's talk for just a minute about some of the concepts and principles that made their way into the academy and talk about how they changed me, changed you, changed us, changed our family for the better. And then we'll end with what you might say to couples, and especially husbands, whose wives are turned on to this program and are considering doing it and feel concerned about the investment. So first, let's back up a bit. In level one we're learning how to love and like ourselves, and we've got those three core first principles of self-care and self-discovery and self-management, or self-leadership. What are some of the concepts and principles, or stories, that you could relate or examples you could give for discovering those? Blaine: Well, I remember one time when you got really angry. I don't know if you've ever been that angry before, except for maybe when you slapped me. And you told me the next day you felt like you'd been poisoned. And that was a change. You said, "I will never allow myself to go there again." And it was just a step up in the self-management. You weren't going to allow yourself to do things like that because it didn't do any good. It just made you feel horrible. What was the self-discovery that made such a difference for you and for us? Audrey: I think self-discovery is so important. I mean, what does it say above the Lyceum door? "Know thyself." It's huge. I don't think there's enough emphasis on it in our society. People do stuff and they're frustrated. So many people, like me, frustrated for years because they're not in their element, not in the place where their gifts and their strengths are. Blaine: And for you, for mind mates, you just need to talk. You want to talk to people about things, about ideas. And that's really empowering to understand. I was like, "Why does she want to talk?" Always wanting to talk, talk, talk. But it's important to you. It helps meet a need. So you give yourself permission to do it, too, so you have an outlet, so you actually feel better. Another thing you did is you got more serious about exercising and making sure that you met your needs. Because Adler taught you about needs and what proper self-care is. Once you started doing that, you improved. And that improved your emotional state. I think exercising is going to help probably more emotionally than physically, though it will definitely help physically. And so that was really helpful. And you'd always prayed and studied scripture and been in church, so you did a good job on your spiritual needs. But you took it up by meeting these other needs that weren't so natural to you, which helped you, which helped us. And you were a better mom, more patient, because you felt better because you'd met those needs. Shared Language and Principles: A New Framework Audrey: You know, we mentioned how so much of therapy and marriage tools and everything people talk about is around communication. But actually, for us, gaining an understanding of principles did two really important things. One thing it did was, instead of Blaine being right or me being right, it was the principles that are right. And so it took a layer of friction between us away. So often we've been in conversations that have gotten a little heated, and we've been able to say, "Okay, but what's the principle here?" And we can check ourselves and say, "Maybe I'm wrong. Let's go try to figure out what the principle would be here." And then the secondary thing that's so important is that we have all this shared language. I mean, if you've been listening to us these last few minutes, we have all these words and all this language about drama and victimhood and creator orientation, or whether it's self-deception or whether it's telling yourself the truth, or whether it's meeting your needs. And we're able to correct each other, I guess is maybe the word. But it doesn't bother me. It's not coming from an accusatory place. Blaine: Like you just said, you'll say, "Audrey, you've got to meet your needs or you're going to crash." Or I'll start crashing and you'll be like, "You feel this way because you're not meeting your needs well enough." And I'm not accusing you. I'm just stating you're not in line with true principles, and therefore you're reaping the consequences. Audrey: Yes. And so it's been just... I can't even emphasize strongly enough how incredibly liberating and empowering it has been to have all of this shared language around how to live out these three first principles of loving ourselves. Because now we both love ourselves better, and when we love ourselves better, we can love each other better. Blaine: And I think any husband should encourage his wife to do this program. And I'm not saying that for any reason other than for your benefit and her benefit. It's going to benefit your wife, and she's going to become a better person. She's going to feel better. She's going to feel empowered, and you're going to like that, and you're going to want to follow because you don't want to be left behind. And just the goodness and health and wholeness that comes from it is so attractive. You'd want to be that way too. Plus, if you're like me, you don't want the problems I was having. I wanted to overcome those problems. I wanted to be a better man, a better husband, a better provider. And all this has done is made it easier. We still have our stuff. We still have things to work through because we're human. But we can catch it, and we can arrest it, and we can pivot and go the right way so that pain is avoided, which used to cause weeks or months of suffering. Sometimes it would be an argument for a few days, or those poor choices would have consequences going on for a long time. And now a lot of times we can just see it. We can think deeper. We know ourselves, and we can course-correct. The Impact on Our Family Audrey: And I think there's so many ways in which this enhances love in a marriage. As we both meet our own individual needs, there are many things I can't do for Blaine. I can't strengthen his relationship with God. I can't make him more fit. I can't help him learn a language or read a great book. I can't help him manage his anger or frustrations or self-pity. Those are all things he needs to do for himself, which is why we need the tools to know how to lead ourselves emotionally, how to manage our hearts and our minds, how to meet our real needs. And then the self-discovery component layers the marriage with this beautiful understanding of each other that's so much richer and deeper. Because instead of expecting or wanting him to be like me, I value that he's different. I want him to be different because I understand that his difference complements me and that it makes us stronger together. And I see it as a strength instead of a weakness. And instead of blaming him, I encourage him to be the person that he is to the fullest. I feel like all of those things have deepened the love that we have for each other. Blaine: I remember one time we were going on a trip. I don't remember where we were going, but you're like, "Why don't you help out?" And I was like, "What do you think I've been doing?" You said, "I'm in here in the kitchen all by myself." And I said, "Did you check the sprinklers? Did you mow the lawn? Did you make sure everything was locked? Did you check the temperatures on the AC? Did you check the pool?" And listed all these things. She's like, "Oh." It was just a case in point of how differently we think. And now she's like, "Oh, you're a man. You think differently." It was just empowering, and we've kept that and used that as we've gone forward. Audrey: And because of the things that we've learned and understand, I was able to say, "Why aren't you helping me?" or "Could you help me better?" rather than, "You're such a loser. Sleep on the couch tonight." Because we had a lot of couch nights in this marriage. Blaine: And I've learned more patience because of it. I learned that you weren't attacking me. You were just trying to talk about things, your concerns and stuff like that. And it's exciting. It's more exciting now than ever because we've gone so far, and we keep knowing that if we hit a problem, we can tackle it and we can beat it. We have the toolbox. We can just grab the tool we need and run with it. A Message to Husbands Audrey: Husbands, if this is something that your wife is willing to tackle, if she wants to embark on this adventure of self-discovery and self-leadership and really do the work of self-management and understanding herself, you have everything to gain, which Blaine said. And everything will be different in your family culture. I mean, we didn't talk about it, but just the way that we parent, the type of family culture that we've been able to build, rests on a foundation of understanding. There are so many countless stories I could tell about understanding my children better and valuing them more and encouraging them in their strengths and unique gifts and talents. Everyone has benefited. Blaine: And the thing that I think is so incredible about the academy is that you've really built it for women in the real world. You see these books that say, "How do you get a book through? You read it four times." Like, who has time to read it once? But you've got it to 20 or 30 minutes a day. That's all the more time, because it has to be done that way so it percolates and they really get it. And it's not going to overtake their lives at all. And you're going to see immediate results, I think. Right off the bat, you're going to see something. They're going to implement something that they learn, and you're going to be impressed. And they're just going to continue to do that as they work through the academy over the months and years ahead. What Has It All Been Worth? Audrey: As we end, Blaine, one last question for you. What has all of this been worth to our family? Blaine: I think that's immeasurable. I think we have a family still because of it. Because it would've been real easy to make me the problem. You know, addiction was the problem. I wasn't the problem. I was suffering. I was wounded in battle. And I had such a poor self-image because of my addiction that you could do no wrong. I really used to think, "I'm sure she has faults," but because mine were just glaring so huge, I couldn't see them. But you didn't give up on me. And so that was ginormous. I mean, it's helped us in all our relationships with extended family. It's now helped me rebuild relationships with my children that needed to be healed and improved. It's helped us with our finances. We had financial stress for years and years and years. It's helped us with your hip, where you could hardly even walk. And through prayer and study and hard work, finding the answers, you didn't have to have an operation and you're back to normal. I mean, it took almost a year, but there are just so many benefits. And just the peace of mind and the enjoyment that we have in our lives. We know who we are, so we do things that bring us joy. And we've given ourselves permission because that's who we are. Before, sometimes we felt like, "Oh, I can't do that. It's wasting time or whatever." And we understand now, no, we need leisure time, and we need to be in our work and... I mean, I just can't answer it fully. The benefits have been astronomical. Just incredible. Audrey: Well, thank you for coming and talking to us today and sharing a husband's perspective and a man's perspective on how women can gain the tools to manage themselves. And when they manage themselves, everything changes for everybody. I know that firsthand, and you know that firsthand. So hopefully what we've said today helps someone out there. Closing and Free Training Invitation Audrey: Thank you so much for joining us today. We are so grateful that you were able to be here. If you want to learn more about what goes on in the academy or what the natural law is or how principles work or any of the things that we've talked about today, you can join me in a free training that I'm doing coming up soon. The link is in the description below or at themissiondrivenmom.com. I'd love to see you at that free training. Thank you again for being here and joining us, and we'll see you next time.
EP 157 They Didn't Have a Plan. They Just Said Yes.
Resources Mentioned in the Episode: Free Training - How to Stop Feeling Powerless & Become the Expert in Your Own Life The Mission Driven Mom Academy Over the last month, I've been sharing stories from some of the women inside MDM Academy. These are not women who had more figured out than you do. They didn't start with extra money, extra time, or some kind of unshakeable certainty. They started exactly where a lot of us are, with a feeling they couldn't quite name, a family they were trying to show up for, and a quiet little voice in the back of their head whispering, is this really it for me? They just said yes to the next small step in front of them. Today's episode is all three of their stories woven together, because I think together they say something none of them could say alone. You're going to hear from Karen, who felt called to serve orphaned teenagers in Mexico, talked herself out of it for years, and then one day got an email from her husband with the subject line: it's time to go. She sold her house. Sold her stuff. Moved her whole family to the jungle. And she is building something I believe is going to change a lot of lives. Then you'll hear from Lindsay, our head mentor inside MDM, who came to this work feeling completely lost, despite having accomplished every goal she had ever set for herself. A mom of five who had done everything right and still felt like she was floundering. What she found here changed not just her own life, but the way she leads her family, her homeschool, and her church. And then there's Brenda. A community builder who has spent decades watching what happens when women stop trying to do it all alone. She has brought her kids across the country, started schools, coached founders, and will tell you with the most joyful, completely matter-of-fact energy that together, there is nothing we cannot do. These are your people, friend. AI Generated Transcript Introduction Welcome to today's podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, and I wanna tell you something before we get into today's podcast. Over the last month, we shared several interviews with some of our MDM Academy members. Inspiring stories about the impact that doing this work has had on their lives and their families and the world around them. The women you're about to hear from are not extraordinary in the way we usually mean that word. They did not start with more money or more time or more resources or more certainty than you have right now. They started exactly where you are, with a pull towards something they could not quite name, a family they were trying to show up for, and a quiet voice in the back of their minds. Is this it? Is this what's here for me? And they said yes to that next small thing, and then the next one, and then the one after that. And today I'm bringing you the highlights of these three conversations stitched together into one episode because I think together they tell a story that none of them could tell alone. You're gonna hear from Karen, who felt called to serve orphaned teenagers in Mexico, dismissed the idea for years, and then one day got an email from her husband with the subject line, "It's time to go." She sold her house, sold her stuff, moved her family to the jungle, and is now building something that I believe is going to change a lot of lives. Then you're gonna hear from Lindsay, our head mentor inside MDM Academy, who came to this work feeling like she was floundering. A mother of five who had accomplished every goal she had set for herself and still felt lost. What she found here changed not just her own life, but the way she leads her family, her homeschool community, and in her church. And then you're going to hear from Brenda, a community builder who has spent decades watching what happens when women stop trying to do it alone. She's dragged her kids across the country, started schools, coached founders, and will tell you in the most joyful matter-of-fact way that together there's nothing we cannot do. These are your people, my friend. I'm excited for you to listen. Part One: Karen — "It's Time to Go" Karen And then that was the last I heard of him. I did hear that he did end up at one of the centers. But it was more and more kids like this that would contact me. I'd find out what they were doing, and I just thought if we could be in Mexico, like we could do something for them. Like from out here, I feel like we can... I mean, we did some fundraisers to try to find things that the orphanage needed. But what they — I felt they needed most was to be heard, to have these opportunities to pursue the interests they had, and to make an impact for good. They really, like all the ones I met, really wanted to just make the world better. They wanted to break these cycles. They didn't wanna be the same kind of people that their parents were. Oftentimes they were in these orphanages because their parents were in addictions, and they couldn't take care of them. They wanted something better and different. But often when they would go back out into the world, that's what they knew. They didn't really know how to do things in a different way, so they would go back to these patterns. And I thought, in my heart, I thought if we could just live in Mexico. But whenever I would bring it up to my family, they were like, "Well, that's impossible. You know, my husband's job is in the United States, and he likes it, and he can't work remotely. He's a therapist, so that's a hands-on thing, and we have a life here." And so it just seemed like an impossible thing, but it would come into my mind every once in a while. We could do so much more if we could provide something there, because obviously we can't bring them to us — as much as I would like that. I did look into adoption a few times, and that was really difficult for Mexico. And it wasn't gonna make the impact for all of the kids that I want to make. And so I think that drive home, that prayer, that sincere prayer just started something. I can't even explain exactly what it was, but because it was so sincere, something happened that just made the ball start rolling in a direction where this would be possible. As I was looking into options of what to do, I thought maybe we could go sometimes in the summer. That's what we started doing — creating different programs, figuring out ways to help these kids. And every once in a while I would say, "But if we lived in Mexico," and they're like, "Oh, here you go again." And so I kinda just stopped at that. And then one day out of nowhere — this was a huge surprise to me — my husband sends me this email and the subject line said, "It's time to go." And so I started reading it and he said, "I've been praying about this, and if this is something that means this much to you and that you really wanna try, then we should just go and try it as a family. Let's just all go and see what we can do." And so that was a huge miracle, 'cause that was so unexpected. And so he decided to take that leap, and we just sold our home and sold our stuff and we went to a couple internships first. So we did an internship in one orphanage in Tijuana, another one in that same orphanage that we often visited, and then we moved — which is where we bought land. So we had bought the land a year earlier after deciding to do this, planning to move out there. Audrey All right, incredible stuff. What Karen just described — that moment of offering herself to God with no plan, no guarantee, and no roadmap — that is not a rare thing. I've watched it happen over and over again in the lives of women who have done this work. But here's what I want you to notice. It didn't start with mission. It started with Karen working on herself, reading, learning, asking harder questions, sitting with the discomfort of a calling she wasn't sure she was ready for. The mission was the fruit of the inner work, not the starting point. And that's exactly what you're gonna hear from Lindsay next. Lindsay came to The Mission Driven Mom not because she had a vision for her community or a project she wanted to launch. She came because she was floundering. She had everything she had set out to accomplish — she had accomplished it — and she still didn't know who she was or where she was going next. And what happened, what the work of learning to think differently did to her relationships, her courage, and her ability to lead — I think it's actually really gonna resonate with you. So I'm excited for you to listen to this next part. Part Two: Lindsay — From Floundering to Found Lindsay But I did feel — I did feel like I was floundering a little bit. And you've talked about this before, and I resonate with it, that you get lost a little bit in the motherhood. It's consuming. It's often thankless, although everybody appreciates the mother — they don't always say it. But I just remembered just floundering, I think would be the word. Just not knowing what to do, where to spend my time, and feeling a little lost, and maybe even a little bit depressed. I just didn't know, okay, where do I go from here? And joining the MDM community, going through Level One — you're putting yourself together. You're making your physical needs a priority. You're making your mental needs a priority. You're studying, you're learning. That intellectual stimulation really is meaningful and gives life a lot of meaning, as you're learning, as you're making friends and discussing things, and putting your spiritual house in order. And then one of my favorite parts of Level One is just the self-discovery. So learning what am I good at? What are my natural strengths? And how can I develop them? I remember when we were learning about the drama triangle, and that was such a paradigm shift for me — just to have the words for it. That creator is the opposite of victim. And I didn't necessarily think that I was a victim. I didn't think that I was steeped in this victim mentality, but I was in the middle of some big drama at the time, and it was so helpful to see the different roles that were being played, and the roles I was playing in the drama cycle, and to know what to do to change that. So that was a big deal, and I'm still learning, still working on it. There's still multiple ways — subtle ways — that we show up in this victim orientation every day. And so I'm super excited. I've been diving deep into different ways of being a victim, and it's been fun to just get more depth to this understanding of the drama cycle, and how to be a creator. I think for me, it's been a journey of getting my heart and my mind to talk to each other. Our heart — that's where our values are. That's where we feel things. That's where we have desire and motivation. And then in our mind is the logic and the reason and all those things that we associate with the intellectual life. And I've always been very much in my mind, very intellectual. That's how I approached the world. Give me a book so I can know what to do. Through the academy, I'm learning — and I'm still learning — how to tap more into the heart, how to tap more into my values. Like, I know what my values are. How to pay attention to those feelings. How do we know we're in drama? It starts with a feeling. How do we relate with people? It starts with the heart, right? And for me, it's that communication between the heart and mind that is just a better way to approach life — with both of them being active instead of just the one. We get to know ourselves on a deeper level in Level One. And so understanding my unique strengths, and also the strengths of others, because we're not the same. And I think sometimes in the past I had thought my way is the best way, and expected everybody to be like me. And so now I have this greater appreciation that actually, I really appreciate when people are not like me — because they bring balance to me. They fill in the gaps for me. And so I really love that we have these different unique strengths, and also this idea that we can see these strengths. I think I had seen some of my strengths as weaknesses. Or I just hadn't understood them. Why am I this way? Why do I do this, and why does it cause problems? And so, on both sides of that coin, learning to see myself differently is definitely helping my heart and my mind to align better. But also my heart to somebody else's heart is more in alignment, because I feel like I can see myself more clearly, and I'm learning to see others more clearly. Audrey Everything Lindsay just described — the alignment between her heart and mind — none of that happened because she found the right system or the right book. It happened because she found her people. And that is what I wanna talk to you about in this last conversation, because I think it might be the thing we underestimate the most. You can have the right framework, you can have the right principles, you can even have the desire to change, but without a community of women who share the language, who can tell you the truth when you ask for it, who will push back when you're lying to yourself, and cheer wildly when you're not — the growth is slower, lonelier, and so much harder to sustain. Brenda Haas has spent her career watching what happens when women build that kind of community with intention. She's built schools, coached founders. Her first homeschool was with her oldest when she was not even five years old. She traveled with her kids to places most people would think was impossible, and she'll tell you without hesitation that none of it would've happened if she had tried to do it alone. So listen up to Brenda. Part Three: Brenda — Together, There's Nothing We Cannot Do Brenda There was a huge difference between before MDM and after MDM. So yes, you and I were connected, and I knew about MDM, and I was excited to get on that path and start that. And so I wanted to grab all these women that I loved — that were in my group, that I was so connected to. I loved their kids. I loved them. We all really knew what each other's values were and where we were coming from, and I was like, "Let's all do this journey together. Let's do it." And we did. That was an incredible year for us, and I think that one of the reasons why was because it was great content. The content itself really encouraged these great, deep conversations. And it wasn't fluff. It wasn't just this superficial, let's rehash the events of a book and let's see if we know what the timeline was and can name the characters of a fiction book. That was not what it was. It was actually discussing character and values, and how a character would apply to us, and how we saw our values mirrored in them or not mirrored in them — which led to deeper conversations, which led to this beautiful... There was a vulnerability that had to happen in the class, and that came over time. It's not like you just jump in with a group of people and automatically have that. But it did grow, and it grew steadily, and we were able to celebrate the things that were different in each other, and also celebrate the things that were similar, and honor each other. So we really learned to hold space for other people, and be excited about their stuff even if it wasn't our own, because we knew they would turn around and do the same thing. And I think that one of the things that I look back on — and I joke with my students now that I'm an old lady, right? Well, I'm 55, and we joke around about it, 'cause I'm older than their mothers, most of them. But I look at my 40s as this incredible time of growth for me, and MDM was a huge part of that. I felt like a grown-up when I was going through MDM. I felt like these are questions, and books, and content, and things that matter, and that are actually gonna make me a wiser person. So it was exciting to dig into it, and I saw the growth in myself, and it has made a huge difference in me. It also made a huge difference in our community, because I wanted the moms at the time — that were the moms of my children's friends — to have the same stuff that I had. To have that same stable platform and the confidence in who they were, because that gets passed on to their kids, and then to the family cultures, and then the community. It was beautiful. It was awesome. Closing — Audrey Rindlisbacher Brenda, Lindsay, and Karen. I hope you enjoyed their amazing stories. And I can tell you that there are many other women with similar experiences who started working on themselves and then found that they were much more brilliant and capable and powerful than they ever imagined that they were. So with all of that in mind, I hope that this was inspiring to you. I hope it will help you on your own journey. And if you'd like to know more and you wanna better understand the program and the principles they learned that made this huge transformation in their lives, I'm gonna do a free training next week, June 11th, and it's gonna be 8:00 Eastern. It's called How to Stop Feeling Powerless and Become the Expert in Your Own Life. And we will dive into some of the frameworks and key concepts that you need to know in order to begin your own transformation like these women have had. I would love to have you join me there. The link is in the description, and you can also sign up at themissiondrivenmom.com. Thanks for joining me today, and I'll see you next time.
Ep 156 Mission Driven Story: Corrie Ten Boom
Resources Mentioned in Episode: The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boom The Mission Driven Life by Audrey Rindlisbacher Visit TheMissionDrivenMom.com to download the free audio book of The Mission Driven Life I want to tell you about a woman who changed my life. Her name was Corrie Ten Boom. And since I read her story for the first time in The Hiding Place, my life has never been the same. She was a fifty-year-old watchmaker in Holland when the German occupation began. Ordinary in almost every way. Small income. Simple life. No influence and no power And yet, she and her family saved the lives of over 800 Jews during World War II. When I knew all she and her family had sacrificed for absolute strangers, I wanted to know: "How do you build a family like that? How do you become the kind of person who, when the moment comes, risks everything to do what is right?” The answer, I've come to believe, is that Corrie wasn't trying to be a hero. She was just trying to be faithful. She loved God. She governed her heart and her mind. She learned to live by principle. She served the people right in front of her. And it multiplied into something that, eventually, the whole world felt. On this week's episode, I walk through Corrie's life. I demonstrate how she lived every single one of the 7 Laws of Life Mission, quietly and faithfully, long before the war ever came to her door. Here's a little of what you'll hear: The prayer she whispered in a stranger's living room that set everything in motion How she became the first licensed female watchmaker in Holland, and what that has to do with self-discovery The moment she used a Dale Carnegie principle to save her sister's life Why her story is proof that ordinary women can do extraordinary things This story is one of my favorites. AI Generated Transcript The Mission-Driven Story of Corrie Ten Boom Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life, founder of The Mission Driven Mom, and we get to do something really fun today, which I thought certainly we had done before, but I looked through the podcast, and we have not done it. We're going to do a mission-driven story of Corrie Ten Boom, a woman who absolutely changed my life. Reading The Hiding Place for the first time really was a total game changer for me. It shifted my mindset. It changed the way I thought about myself and my family and my life, changed my goal sets. It was really profound, and today, we're just going to touch on the life of Corrie Ten Boom as she lives those Seven Laws of Life Mission. We haven't done this for a little bit, so I'm super excited to get started. All right. Here's how I want to start, with a story that's really profound about her. A Story of Bravery: Corrie Ten Boom and the Jewish FamilyNear the beginning of the German occupation of Holland during World War II, Corrie Ten Boom, a 50-year-old spinster, was visiting Jewish friends. In the middle of their discussion, the children called from upstairs for their father to put them to bed. He quickly excused himself, and Corrie could hear their romping play and laughter. As she listened, reflecting on the deep love that was present in their home, a realization suddenly struck her with intense force. This family was in grave danger. More and more frequently, Jews were going missing from their homes and jobs, but now she awoke to the fact that this family, her dear friends, could be next. At any moment, the Gestapo could knock on this door, raid the house, and separate the family forever. With this awareness came an overwhelming sadness and an anxious desire to help. As she waited in their living room, she wondered what she could possibly do. Her life was simple, her income was small, and her resources were few. She felt she had little to give, yet she was willing to do what she could. In that moment of great bravery and generosity, she said a silent prayer and offered up all she had. "Lord, I offer myself for your people in any way, any place, any time." This family saved the lives of over 800 Jews during World War II voluntarily, when most of the people around them did not. They found out about the resistance, they joined, and they risked their lives and eventually gave their lives to save the lives of strangers. And what I wanted to know when I first read The Hiding Place was, how do you build a family like that? How do you build a life like that? How do you build a character like that, to be the person who would be different than all the people around you? I can't judge anybody that was there because I've never been through anything like that, and I genuinely don't know what I would do. But I wanted to be like the Ten Booms. I wanted to be the family, the individual, the mother, the woman that would welcome people into my home at the risk of my own life. And they eventually did. Many of the family members did give their lives for complete strangers. So I want to go through the life of Corrie Ten Boom and just touch on the Seven Laws of Life Mission and walk you through that path that the greats have followed to become the men and women who did change the world. Corrie wasn't out to change the world. Corrie was just trying to be the best woman she could be. She was trying to listen to her conscience and live by principle and follow God and His mandates and serve her fellow brothers and sisters on earth. And yet in that pursuit, their family became world famous and has changed the lives of millions of people, including me. So let's touch on these Seven Laws of Life Mission today through the lens of the life of Corrie Ten Boom and talk about some of her stories. And I'll give you some resources when we're done for how you can continue to learn more, because she's incredible. She was born in Amsterdam, Holland, on April 15th, 1892. And I want to just go through and tell you some stories from each of these times in her life about how she lived each of these laws. Law One: Love God by Establishing Your Divine Center So Law One, of course, is to love God by establishing your divine center. And she definitely was someone who, from childhood forward, established her divine center in God. She said, "Love for the Jews was spoon-fed to me from my very youngest years." Daily prayer for the Jews began when Willem Ten Boom, her great-grandfather, started having daily prayers in their home for the Jews in 1844, and continued for three generations. For 100 years, until 1944 when they were arrested and put in concentration camps, they prayed every day. Not surprisingly, Corrie stated, "As a result, deep respect and love for the Jews became part of our home life." They knew that praying wasn't enough, though, and as Corrie herself later taught, "We never know how God will answer our prayers, but we can expect that He will get us involved in His plan for the answer. If we are true intercessors, we must be ready to take part in God's work on behalf of the people for whom we pray." So from the time that she was little, she was taught that prayer was vital, that she needed to read scripture daily, say prayers daily, and to be willing to do whatever God asked her to do. Her father, Casper, came downstairs every morning at 8:10 and gathered his family around him all the way through her twenties, her thirties, her forties, her fifties, because she never married and always lived at home. And they read scripture and prayed together every single morning. Growing Up: Learning to Love God I want to tell you a couple of stories from Corrie's growing up years, experiences that she had that helped her better learn to love God. One day when she was disobedient in school and was sent to the headmaster's office, instead of going there, she ducked into a closet and waited hours for school to end. She was certain that she would be dismissed from the school and had no idea what she should do. She believed it would disgrace her father, as he had helped to found the school. When she heard the bell ring, she made for home as quickly as her legs would take her. Once there, she poured out her heart to her sister, Nollie. She told her everything. Then Nollie suggested that Corrie pray and ask for forgiveness. This was already a clear indication that at a young age, these girls had been taught key spiritual truths well and knew the importance of heeding them. Since forgiveness had been asked, Nollie had another idea that might help. She remembered her father's scripture reading and excitedly asked Corrie, "Do you remember that boring Psalm that Papa read at the table, where every sixth or seventh verse were the same words?" She quoted Psalms 107: "Then they cried unto the Lord in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distress." She said, "Why couldn't we do the same?" And so they did. The young schoolgirls, taking their father's words and example to heart and crying unto the Lord, fell asleep comforted. The next day, to her joy and great relief, Corrie met the headmaster, who only gave her a slight reprimand and sent her back to class. So when they were in trouble as young schoolgirls, they used spiritual principles and tapped into God's grace to help them overcome this problem that they had in school. So amazing. First Love: Putting God's Will First When she was a bit older and she fell in love for the first time, this was an experience where she also had to learn to put God's will first in her life. During her high school years, a visit to her older brother in college led to a chance meeting with a friend of his named Karel. She was immediately captivated. Happily, Karel showed interest in return, and though they saw each other rarely, each time they met, the relationship deepened. After spending the day together at her brother's wedding, Corrie felt there was hope for a future with Karel. Months later, they connected again, walking and talking day after day, until, "Suddenly we were speaking not about what Karel was going to do, but about what we were going to do." Corrie knew then that Karel was the one for her. When the family returned home, they tried to gently help Corrie see that Karel came from a wealthy family and, although he may talk romantically with Corrie, he would marry within his social standing. Refusing to believe it, Corrie hoped on, even after Karel stopped returning her letters. Finally, the fatal day arrived when Karel brought his fiancee to meet the family. Devastated by the news, Corrie tried to keep her composure and be polite until she could escape to her room. There, she wept and wept until hours later when her father came to talk to her. He extended an invitation to Corrie: turn to God, let His will be done. "God loves Karel, and if you ask Him, He will give you His love for this man, a love nothing can prevent, nothing destroy." Corrie knew that if she was willing, if she truly loved God and knew His way was the best way, she would turn to Him and let His will be done. "My task just then was to give up my feeling for Karel without giving up the joy and wonder that had grown with it." She mustered all her strength, and with all her heart she whispered an enormous prayer: "Lord, I give you the way I feel about Karel. Give me your way of seeing Karel instead." God answered her prayer. The next time she saw Karel, Corrie realized that the pain was gone. Love was still there, and she could honestly wish for his future happiness. She also felt peace in what she believed to be God's path for her, to never marry or have children of her own. She was able to be willing and put God at the center of her life, come to know Him, and live and love His laws because she centered her life on God. Law Two: Striving for Self-Mastery by Loving Yourself Now, Law Two is striving for self-mastery by loving yourself. A big part of self-mastery, a big part of loving ourselves, is self-discovery. So I'm going to tell you a couple of stories in Corrie's life from when she's younger and a little bit older, and she discovered some important things about herself. As a young girl, Corrie felt intense empathy for the poor and homeless that walked the streets near her home. With the encouragement of her parents, she prayed for them, and she tried to find ways to help them. Once, when Corrie saw a homeless but drunken, mentally ill tramp being teased and taunted by a group of children, Corrie stood up to them with such power that they quickly scattered. The tramp approached her and kissed her on the cheek. Far from scaring her, it endeared this man to her even more. "And a deep concern for the feeble-minded was fostered in me," she said. Little did she know that the seeds were being planted and traits developed that would enable Corrie to accomplish one of several missions she would eventually feel called to do, working with and teaching the mentally handicapped. Years later, when she was running her own program for the mentally handicapped, her father showed great reverence and respect for her work. He once told her, "Corrie, what you do among these people is of little importance in the eyes of men. But I'm sure in God's eyes it is the most valuable work in the world." Another way in which we learn to love ourselves better is we discipline our heart and mind. When Corrie was alone in her room grieving over losing the love of her life, her father gave her priceless counsel on how to face her trial: turn to God, forgive, and keep loving. He was right, and Corrie aligned her life with those truths and disciplined her heart and mind in order to better love herself. Self-Discovery: Finding Her True Gifts One other instance I want to tell you about is when Corrie gained more self-discovery and learned something more important about herself. This took place years later when Corrie and Betsie, still unmarried and living at home, had assumed adult roles in the family. Betsie helped in the watch shop, and Corrie managed the household. Although they both enjoyed their work, when Betsie became ill and her illness lingered on for several months, it became necessary for Corrie to take over many of her duties in the shop. To their delight, they accidentally discovered that Betsie loved beautifying and caring for their home so much that she was sneaking out of her bed to clean, paint, and organize. In the meantime, Corrie couldn't get enough of managing customers, balancing the books, and learning watch repair. Their father was delighted with their discovery and encouraged them to make the change permanent, much to everyone's added happiness and fulfillment. And one of the things that came from this that's really remarkable is that in 1922, when she was 30 years old, Corrie became the first licensed female watchmaker in Holland. She loved it and did it for the rest of her life, until after the war when she assumed other duties. Law Three: Love Truth by Living According to Principles Now, Law Three is to love truth, and this means that we live according to principles and align our lives with them. I want to tell you one instance where Corrie came to understand the nature of true principles and aligned her life with them. When she was a little girl, she and her best friend were troublemakers. She said, "I was no angel. Mischief was my middle name, and Dot, my cousin, was my best friend and a willing partner. If I didn't dream up a prank, she would." Then one of their pranks taught Corrie the importance of obedience to principles. One day, as they walked to school, Dot showed Corrie a dime she had found which was broken in half. This was a lot of money to them. They could buy 10 pieces of candy, a rare treat for poor girls. Without saying a word to each other, they proceeded together to the sweet shop on the way to school. They ordered their candy, and then Dot picked it up as Corrie arranged the dime on the counter, making it look like a whole piece of money. Then they bolted for the door. As they rounded the corner just outside the shop, they could hear the owner shouting at them. They ran even harder, never looking back. But Corrie learned her lesson. She later said, "We felt so guilty, and for weeks avoided going by the candy store. The candy didn't taste very good either." She committed herself to living a life of honesty after this experience. She had learned the importance of that true principle. Law Four: Love Humanity by Becoming a Servant Leader Law Four is loving humanity by becoming a servant leader. Here's a really remarkable story about when Corrie used everything that she had learned, her self-education, her understanding of other people, her love for them, her self-discipline. All these ways in which she had lived the Laws of Life Mission came to bear in this particular instance when she was truly a servant leader. During World War II, Nollie, the only married Ten Boom daughter, lived with her husband and children in a home across town. In an effort to do what she knew to be right, she had risked her own and her family's lives by taking in several Jews. Eventually, her home was raided, the Jews were discovered, and she and the Jews were promptly arrested and imprisoned. After 10 days in the Haarlem jail, she was transferred to a federal prison. Through underground channels, information made its way back to Corrie that the doctor in the federal prison was humane and occasionally made arrangements for release of prisoners based on medical conditions. Corrie was determined to do what she could to try and ensure her sister's discharge from prison, so she went to visit the doctor. She thought, "But what could I say? How could I get into the good graces of this man?" As she pondered the difficult position she found herself in, Corrie remembered a principle she had recently learned from Dale Carnegie in her reading of How to Win Friends and Influence People. Carnegie had recommended that when you're trying to get to know someone, you should find out about their hobbies. She looked around the room and noticed three beautiful Doberman Pinschers in the lobby of the doctor's office. With her many years of experience in meeting new people, the German her father had so skillfully taught her, and this latest knowledge gleaned from a good book, Corrie made her introduction to the doctor impressive, sincere, and memorable. She said, "How smart of you, Doctor." "Smart?" "Yes, to bring these lovely dogs with you. They must be good company when you have to be away from your family." The doctor's face brightened. "You like dogs then?" They launched into a 10-minute discussion where Corrie racked her brain for everything she had ever heard or learned about dogs. This began an interaction that made a deep impression on the doctor. He could tell that Corrie genuinely cared about him, which caused him to care about her and her loved ones. Although he was taking a big risk, eventually he intervened on behalf of Nollie and had her released from prison for medical reasons. These are the fruits of living Law Four, of loving humanity and becoming a servant leader. Corrie could have come to the doctor in tears and pleaded her case. She could have focused entirely on her own fears and troubles, but she knew better than that. She was a servant leader. This was manifest in her ability to see the doctor's troubles and extend true empathy before she told him her own. She thought about his circumstances, serving his government in a foreign country, far away from family and home. She thought about what was interesting and important to him. She spoke to him in his native tongue, which put him at ease and made the conversation easy for him to carry on. She knew how to do things on his terms, to show genuine interest in him before she asked for anything in return. The reward was immense: the life of her beloved sister, Nollie. Lifelong Learning as an Act of Love Another instance of loving humanity is to be a lifelong learner, to continue to expand our understanding of ourselves, of the world around us, and of the people that we interact with. Corrie was definitely a lifelong learner. After graduating from high school, Corrie knew that her lifelong learning was just beginning. She said, "I began to want to be somebody outside the protection of the Beje," her home. "The first thing I did was launch into an intensive study of many subjects." She didn't have the money to go on to college, but she knew her education shouldn't end. That had been modeled for her. Once, when she found herself sick in bed for five months, she used the time to further her education by studying her brother's college texts in religious history. This enabled her to discuss these ideas with him and her father, which she loved. She also attended missionary retreats every summer and was inspired through them to start a study group in her area. At one point, she also took time to study art and music on her own and visit all the museums of the famous Dutch masters. Later, when a Christian school opened in her area, Corrie eagerly signed up for seven classes and diligently studied. She expressed the long-term effect of her family's commitment to self-education when she said, "We all wanted to know more about other lands, different languages, and people from contrasting cultures. This interest was stimulated by visitors from many countries and by reading good books." One of the things that happened in the Ten Boom home was constant exposure to people of all different beliefs, worldviews, and world religions. Father held a book club for people of all different faiths. They prayed for the Jews daily. They read periodicals, magazines, and articles in multiple languages from multiple places around the world on multiple subjects, and then talked about those ideas with people that came to their home. And they loved all people. They did not care where they came from, what their beliefs were, whether they were poor or rich. They loved them all the same. What a beautiful example her parents set for loving humanity. Law Five: Hear the Call Now, Law Five is to hear the call. And one of the first things that you have to do is know what God is calling you to do. Having accepted the fact that she would never marry, Corrie took classes, worked hard on her self-education, and cared for her mother for several years. She also worked in the watch shop full time. At about the time she took over the watch shop, she felt that she wanted more purpose in her life. She prayed, "Dear Lord, can you use me in some way?" God heard her desire and sent the answer. One day, while attending a meeting of the Christian Union of the Lady Friends of the Young Girl, Corrie was tapped on the shoulder by an older woman. "That's work for you, Corrie Ten Boom." "No time," Corrie answered, thinking of the house, the shop, the Bible studies in schools. "Talk it over with the Lord," the woman said. And that was exactly what Corrie did when she went to bed that evening. The next day, she told Betsie about the meeting and how the Lord had laid it upon her heart to do something about girls in their early teen years. Betsie loved the idea and was immediately on board. They put their heads together and began to make plans. She said, "We had no money, no experience, but we started." And that is what Law Five is all about: hearing the call. Law Six: Courageously Execute And then, of course, Law Six: to courageously execute. They did start their girls' clubs. Corrie also started a group for the mentally handicapped. She had been doing Bible studies. She was continuing her lifelong learning. She was working in the family watch shop. There were many obstacles with these girls' clubs. When they started out and began their girls' club, they started at a park because they had nowhere else to meet. They would talk and play and then share a spiritual message with the youth, but it quickly became obvious that this was not a good permanent solution. They had no privacy, poor weather disrupted their meetings, and they struggled to keep the girls' attention. They had no money for a meeting room and didn't want to charge the girls any money, as some would be excluded from participating due to poverty. They asked around town about a possible location with no solutions forthcoming. What could they do? It would have been easy to stop there. She had heard the call. They had given it a go. She could just say, "Sorry, too bad, we can't do this." With no building to meet in, it looked as if the girls' club could go no further. Yet they persisted. They kept meeting. They kept asking, and they didn't give up. Miraculously, a benefactor who owned a home in town said he was willing to rent to them for an extremely small fee because he was impressed with the high moral purpose they were pursuing. With multiple rooms to use, the club could grow more quickly. Excitedly, they moved forward. They asked the girls what classes they would enjoy and used the smaller rooms of the building for these classes and the larger center room for everyone to meet together. Some girls wanted more athletic activities, so they rented a gym one night a week and worked out together. Corrie said of this time, "God bless the work. Yes, we made mistakes, but in spite of our blunders, the clubs grew in numbers and in strength." They continued to courageously execute. They went forward despite obstacles, despite people trying to stop them. They formed their own cooperative, which they called the Club of Friends. And in fact, their girls' clubs grew to be an international organization. It crossed borders. They had several thousand girls involved in other countries as well. It was a really remarkable work. Law Seven: Do It Again and Again And then World War II hit. And like I began this podcast, Corrie devoted herself to the Jewish people any place, any time, doing anything that God would call on her to do. And so they lived Law Seven: doing it again and again. They started harboring Jews. They eventually saved the lives of over 800 people. And by February of 1944, they were betrayed. The home was invaded, and they were arrested. By the next month, their father was put in prison, and he died there. By June of that year, Corrie and Betsie were placed in a concentration camp. And in September of that year, they were moved to Ravensbruck, a very famous, large concentration camp. There are many beautiful stories of the miracles that took place when they were in these concentration camps and the way that they were able to spread the word of God and read scripture together. There is this beautiful episode where Betsie tells Corrie to thank God for the fleas and to thank God in all things. Corrie doesn't want to, and she finally learns later on why that was so important. And then by the end of that year, Betsie died in the concentration camp, and Corrie was miraculously released on a clerical error. She went home. She tried to engage in the work again, because the war didn't end until mid-1945. She found that she couldn't do the work, and she knew for sure that God had been helping her to do the work before. She then started going around and speaking and sharing a message of forgiveness. As the war ended, she could see that people needed to learn to forgive and to rebuild their lives. Betsie had a beautiful vision in prison about a home that they would acquire to help victims of the war, and that miracle did come to pass. Corrie started this home for war victims, and then she began traveling the world. She was invited to speak over and over again. She had her own journey of forgiveness, and she shared that message with others. In 1953, she published her first book, Amazing Love, and then in 1971 the famous book that spread across the globe, The Hiding Place, with millions of copies sold. In 1988, their home, the Beje, was turned into a museum, and Corrie eventually immigrated to California, where she died in her nineties. A truly mission-driven life. Closing Thoughts and Resources A woman devoted to God, to His natural laws and principles, to a life of mission, of hearing calls and answering them, of devoting her life to making the world a better place. And she didn't try to change the world. She just changed herself. She governed her heart and her mind. She found principles and lived according to them. She became a true servant leader and served those around her, those that she could serve. And eventually, their path, their mission, their work has changed millions of lives. So if you want to learn more, I would recommend my book, The Mission Driven Life. Go grab a copy of that. We still have the audio available for free on the website at themissiondrivenmom.com. It is going to come down soon, so take advantage of that if you haven't already gone and grabbed your audio copy. It will teach you those Seven Laws of Life Mission and take you through a lot more stories of Corrie and her whole family living these laws and so many miraculous stories. My book focuses on their lives before World War II. And then read The Hiding Place for the story of what happened to them leading up to those last couple of years before World War II and all of their experiences during the war and beyond. Corrie Ten Boom is an amazing example, someone who has changed my life. Many nights I go to bed, and when I climb into bed, I think of her side by side with Betsie on those wooden rafters in the concentration camp with nothing, having given her life over to God and thereby bringing so many souls to Him. It's just incredible the life that she lived, and I try to be grateful for my blessings and remember how much others have sacrificed to make the world a better place on my behalf. I hope that her story has been inspiring to you. I hope that you'll pick up those two books and go learn more at themissiondrivenmom.com. They will give you Corrie's whole story as well as the whole Ten Boom family. And you can learn better how you can begin to walk that path of life mission yourself and plug into those Seven Laws and be transformed by them and follow in the footsteps of her and many other great men and women. Be an ordinary person, just like I am, who is empowered to do extraordinary things through these beautiful laws. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I will see you next time.
EP 155 My Birthday Dream for You
Resources Mentioned in Episode: Mothers of Creation - Join us September 26th in Provo, Utah | Use coupon code MOTHER at checkout to receive $50 OFF | Expires at midnight on Monday, 5/18 It's my birthday today. And every year, since it falls right around Mother's Day, this ends up being one of the most self-reflective times of year for me. So today I want to tell you a story. My story. I grew up in a home full of love, but books weren't part of our culture. I made it through twelve years of public school without ever hearing of Anne of Green Gables, the Little House series, or Narnia. And then my senior year, I got a teacher who actually wanted to make me think. We read The Brothers Karamazov, and that book cracked something open in me that I didn't even know was closed. It took almost ten more years (and three babies) before I found the kind of education that asked the right question. Not what did you learn but how is this supposed to change you? That question changed everything. On this week's episode I share all of it: where I came from, what I was missing, and the dream I carry for every mom who finds her way to this work. Here's a little of what you'll hear: The one teacher who finally asked me the right question Why working on yourself is the least selfish thing you can do for your children The dream I hold for our culture and what becomes possible when moms start thinking differently I invite you to listen to this episode. I’ve never shared this part of my journey and I hope it resonates with something inside you. AI Generated Transcript It's My Birthday, and I Have a Dream I Need to Tell You About It's my birthday today. And every year it lands right around Mother's Day, so this time of year tends to make me really reflective. I find myself thinking about where I've been, where I'm going, and what I really want for the women in my life -- including you. I want to tell you a story today. A personal one. And then I want to share a dream with you -- a dream I've been carrying for a long time. I Was a Decent Student Who Asked All the Wrong Questions All growing up, I was a pretty decent student. I didn't love school, but it was just part of the reality around me. It was the world I lived in. It was what everybody did. You get up in the morning, you go to school, you do the homework, you pass the test. That's just the nature of reality, right? By the time I got to high school, though, I was pretty disenchanted by the whole experience. I started asking the questions that so many of us ask: Why in the world do I need to study calculus? Who cares what year the French and Indian War started? Why does Hamlet matter so much? And I did what everybody does. I kept going. I kept doing the work so I could get into a good college, because somewhere along the way I'd come to believe that college was the real goal of it all. That's where education got good. That's where learning was actually fun. And then my senior year, something happened. The Teacher Who Changed Everything I got a teacher who was different from any other teacher I'd ever had. He wanted to make us think. And he cared about what I thought. It was the first time in my 12 years of public education that I began to ask the right question -- how my learning was supposed to change me. We read The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky, and that book changed my life. I know that might sound dramatic, but you have to understand where I came from. My father grew up in a tiny town with a graduating class of 10 people. He went to one semester of college, then came home and married his high school sweetheart. After five children and about 11 years, when their marriage was failing, he met my mom. My mom also came from a small town. Her father was an alcoholic who had abandoned the family, and she had one sibling -- a sister who was schizophrenic. She, her mother, and her sister scraped by all growing up. They cooked on a wood-burning stove in the 1960s. My grandmother never even learned to drive. When my parents married and had five more children together -- I'm the oldest of that group -- with no good income-earning skills and a growing family to provide for, we struggled financially, especially when I was young. Now, I want to be clear about something. There was a lot of love in my home. I never thought of myself as poor or going without things. My older siblings from my dad's first marriage visited every summer, and I always looked forward to seeing them. But the net result of all of it -- the backgrounds of my parents, the circumstances we were in -- was that lifelong learning, self-education, and reading were simply not part of the culture in our house. I knew my mom sometimes read romance novels. My dad would occasionally mention a sales or self-help guru he was following. But I don't remember there being very many books in our home at all. I Didn't Even Know Anne of Green Gables Was a Book In college, the Anne of Green Gables series was released, and my girlfriends gathered for a sleepover to binge-watch them all night. It was only at that sleepover that I even heard of Anne of Green Gables. I had no frame of reference for that whole experience. I had never heard of or read the Little House books. I thought it was a TV show. I had never heard of the Narnia series. These were books that were left out of the public school program, so I was never introduced to them. And that is why, when I read The Brothers Karamazov, it hit me so hard. I didn't know that books like this existed. Books that spoke to the deepest parts of me. Books that discussed the most important questions of life. Books about people who were seeking truth, grappling with real temptations and real struggles. I had no idea the impact that true classics could have on a person. I didn't know they could help me understand myself, build my character, or become better. It was honestly pretty magical. And the only thing that had ever spoken to me in that same way before was scripture. Thirty Years Old, Three Babies, and Just Getting Started After high school, it took me almost ten years to discover liberal arts education. There I was, 30 years old with three babies in tow, just getting started on my real education. But it didn't matter. Because I knew it could give me what The Brothers Karamazov had given me: truth, virtue, beauty, character, and deep personal growth. So that's my story. And here's my dream. My Dream for You (and for All of Us) My dream is that every mother and every woman would have what I received. You and I both know that our culture is declining. We see it in the media, in our educational programs, even in our leaders -- things moving further and further away from what is right and true and good. We worry about our children. We worry about the future. And so many of us feel powerless to change any of it. Who am I? I can't tell you how many times I've asked myself that. I'm just one person. Just a stay-at-home mom. Just a working mom. Just a single mom doing her best to hold everything together. I can't fix the world. I can't even fix dinner. But here's the irony. When we work on ourselves, we make our culture better. Because we raise the next generation, and they are watching us every single day. Who we are, who we are becoming, and the example we are setting -- it means everything to them. And to our culture. And the best part? We don't have to do this alone. We can link arms and lift ourselves and lift our families, and that will lift the culture. What We Were Never Taught (and Why It Matters So Much) Here's what I know. You and I did not get the education that empowers us to discern and live by truth. We were not taught how to take the best works ever written and harness their lessons for our lives. We didn't receive the training we deserve -- to be self-educating for life, to know what to read and how to read it, how to discern truth in our culture, and how to be changed for the better by it. We weren't taught the tools for understanding and practicing principles. And that deficiency in our education -- that gap in our ability to meet our real mental and spiritual needs -- is a huge roadblock in our personal growth. It makes it harder to lead ourselves and our families with confidence and clarity and purpose. So my dream is that every woman and mother will learn how to think differently. Because when we think differently, our beliefs change. And when our beliefs change, everything changes. My dream is that our families will be strengthened and our communities will be blessed. That there will be more truth and goodness in the world because of our presence in it -- as mission-driven women who know how to harness truth to heal ourselves, our families, our communities, and the world. Come Spend the Day With Me This September So please join me. Please take your education and your personal growth more seriously. Please link arms with us in making the world a better place. I know we can do it -- one mother, one woman at a time. And if you're ready to start, I'd love to invite you to spend the day with me this September in Utah at our Mothers of Creation conference. You will be surrounded by women just like you -- on this same mission to develop themselves and link arms in lifting our culture. You will leave with renewed hope and excitement, not just for your own future, but for the future of our nation and our world. You'll walk away with real skills, tools, and principles for putting your own life in better order. And I promise you will leave empowered with clarity about your next steps -- and new friends to walk the path with you. As my birthday present to you, I'm offering $50 off -- but only through tonight. The link is in the description. Thank you for being here. Thank you for caring. I'll see you next time.
EP 154 From Floundering to Finding Herself
Resources mentioned in the episode: Mothers of Creation, Provo, Utah - September 26th Encore Training: How to Stop Feeling Powerless and Become the Expert in Your Own Life I want to introduce you to Lindsey. She's a mother of five, a homeschooler, and one of the most principled women I know. But when she first came to MDM, she described herself the same way so many of us do. Floundering. A little lost. A little depressed. She had accomplished everything she had set out to do and then stood there wondering, okay, now what? On this week's episode, Lindsey shares what changed for her. And I think you're going to hear yourself in her story. Here's a little of what she talks about: The moment she learned the difference between a victim and a creator, and realized, uncomfortably, which one she had been How she went from avoiding hard conversations to having them with clarity and courage What happened in her relationship with her oldest daughter when she stopped expecting her to be just like her Why she says MDM helped her get her heart and her mind to finally talk to each other What it felt like to walk into a room of women who actually understood her and say for the first time, I found my people That last one is so incredibly precious. Because I know how rare it is. And I know how much it changes everything when you finally have it. Come listen. Because Lindsey's story is the kind that can shift something inside you. AI Generated Transcript Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission- Driven Life and founder of the Mission-Driven Mom. And like I have been talking about, we are hearing from some women who are going to share their experiences with learning to better love themselves and God, and the impact that had on their relationships, their community immediately around them, and the larger community around them. Audrey: Today, we have Lindsay Wright, who it is an honor to know. For those of you that get involved or have been involved in MDM, she is a mentor for us, head mentor, and she helps train the mentors. She is incredible, but she had her own journey with these principles, like we all do. And so we are going to begin at the beginning with her story and have her start by talking to us about who she is. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Lindsay, and then where you were at before MDM. Lindsay's Background and Early Motherhood Lindsay: Sure. Thanks for letting me be on the podcast. I love the opportunity. It is hard to remember what life was like before, so I am a mother of five. My oldest is almost twenty-four. And then my youngest is twelve. And you have talked about this a lot, too, in those early days of motherhood, when they were all young. I loved it. That was my dream job, to be a mother. In fact, I had some big goals for life. I wanted to be a mom, I wanted a college degree. I had those big goals, and I had accomplished all of them by the time I was in my twenties. After that, you are in the thick of mothering, which is fantastic. But I did feel like I was floundering a little bit. And you have talked about this before, and I resonate with it, that you get lost a little bit in motherhood. It is consuming, and it is often thankless, although everybody appreciates the mother. They do not always say it. But I just remember floundering, I think that would be the word. Just not knowing what to do or where to spend my time and feeling a little lost. Maybe even a little bit depressed. I just did not know, okay, where do I go from here? Discovering MDM and Level One Lindsay: Joining the MDM community and going through Level One changed that dramatically. In Level One, it starts with the idea of natural law, like these principles that there is truth and that we can know it, and that we can use it to make the changes that we want to make and to know what those changes even are. And so in Level One, you are putting yourself together. You are making your physical needs a priority. You are making your mental needs a priority. You are studying; you are learning. That intellectual stimulation really is meaningful and gives life a lot of meaning as you are learning, as you are making friends and discussing things, and putting your spiritual house in order. And then one of my favorite parts of Level One is just the self-discovery. So learning, what am I good at? What are my natural strengths? How can I develop them? How can I use them to help other people, like we said, to influence the culture for good? It was just life-changing. The Drama Triangle Audrey: So, can you give us a specific story, or event, or principle that you feel like made a difference for you? Lindsay: I remember when we were learning about the drama triangle. That was such a paradigm shift for me, just to have the words for it. That creator is the opposite of a victim. And I did not necessarily think that I was a victim. I did not think that I was steeped in a victim mentality. But I was in the middle of some big drama at the time, and it was so helpful to see the different roles that were being played and the different roles I was playing in the drama cycle. And to know what to do to change that. So that was a big deal. And I am still learning. I am still working on it. There are still multiple subtle ways that we show up in this victim orientation every day. And so I am super excited. I have been diving deep into different ways of being a victim, and it has been fun to just get more depth in my understanding of the drama cycle and how to be a creator. Audrey: Lindsay has been mentoring our Mothers of Creation group. When you get a ticket to the event this fall, then you are in an online community with us, and she is mentoring that group. And so it has really been a lot of deep diving into those principles and phenomenal concepts being talked about. So that has been awesome. Communing with Yourself and God Audrey: This idea of the root word of "commune" and what it means to commune better with ourselves, to commune better with God, to have better communication with ourselves and with God, and then the extension of having better communication and community around us. So before we head into the community piece, I am curious, first of all, how do you feel like your relationship with yourself transformed? How did that communing and that better communication, the principles that we work on at MDM, what can you articulate about the change in yourself? Lindsay: I think for me it has been a journey of getting my heart and my mind to talk to each other. Audrey: What do you mean by that? Lindsay: Our heart is where our values are. That is where we feel things. That is where we have desire and motivation. And then in our mind is the logic and the reason and all those things that we associate with the intellectual life. And I have always been very much in my mind, very intellectual. That is just how I approached the world. Give me a book, tell me what to do, so I can know what to do. And through the academy, I am learning, and I am still learning, how to tap more into the heart, how to tap more into my values. Like, I know what my values are. But how do I pay attention to those feelings? How do we know we are in drama? It starts with a feeling. How do we relate with people? It starts with the heart. And for me, it is that communication between the heart and mind that is a better way to approach life, with both of them being active instead of just the one. Audrey: Fascinating. So would you say that part of that process has been to align your thoughts more with who you really are or what you really value? Lindsay: Yeah, for sure. Like I said, we get to know ourselves on a deeper level in Level One. And so understanding my unique strengths and also the strengths of others, because we are not the same. And I think sometimes in the past I had thought my way is the best way, and I expected everybody to be like me. And so now I have this greater appreciation that I really appreciate when people are not like me, because they bring balance to me. They fill in the gaps for me. And so I really love that we have these different, unique strengths. Also, this idea that we can see these strengths. I think I had seen some of my strengths as weaknesses, or I just had not understood them. Why am I this way? Why do I do this, and why does it cause problems? And so really, on both sides of that coin, learning to see myself differently is definitely helping my heart and my mind to align better. But also, my heart to somebody else's heart is more in line because I feel like I can see myself more clearly, and I am learning to see others more clearly. Audrey: So, how does it help you see others more clearly? How has the development of your relationship with yourself and these principles that you have learned, how has that bled over into your other relationships? Lindsay: Part of it is that I do not expect others to be like me, like I said. So simple, but so profound. And I want to add that it is not just, I think a lot of us might say that truth, and I think people listening might be like, “Yeah, of course.” But there is something very profound and permanent that happens when you actually understand the ways that we are different. You do not expect them to be like you because you understand truly, deeply that there are different ways for other people to fundamentally be, and that there is value in that, and that it is important that they are that way. So often, we take our way of being, and we think it is the only way, the right way, because it works for us, and we elevate our applications to the level of principle. And then we start judging other people because we are saying, oh, they are not living the principle. And actually, it is just a different application. And as I learned to see myself clearly, then I can start to see that difference in application. I can see where we are the same, I can see where we can build those bridges. But then I can also value the differences in others. And I think this is something I have just realized recently, because I am seeing myself more clearly, I do not need others to validate me. I do not need others to be like me. I am just comfortable being me. And that just, it is just like letting go of a lot of baggage. It is just a lightness, a confidence in my way of being. And I am still learning. I am so far from perfect. But yes, there is a self-acceptance there. The Mission Statement and Building Bridges Audrey: You mentioned something, and I was thinking about what you were saying just now, and how at one point, I remember a few years ago, you bought, is it a painting or a picture of a bridge? And there was something about that that resonated with you. What was that? Lindsay: It is actually a part of my mission statement. I came across this idea of bridges in Level Three of the Academy. This idea that is how we can have influence for good, is when we can see the things that we agree on, that we can see the things that are the same. It builds a bridge of understanding. And it allows us to work together. It allows us, it is that thing that allows us to appreciate the differences. And so I actually made it part of my mission statement. Audrey: Let us hear it. Lindsay: Here is my mission statement: Seek and speak truth with love. Build bridges through education. Strengthen faith, freedom, and family through servant leadership. So that idea of the bridge just has all those different meanings in it for me. It is a place, it helps us to move, it helps us to get from one side to the other. And for me, education is one of the ways that we get to the other side. It is one of those ways that we learn to build the bridges. Audrey: There are two things I was thinking when you were saying that. It is such a beautiful image for the bridges we all want to build with the people in our lives that we want to be closer to. And the sense of greater community, being able to cross back and forth and connect with anyone and build those relationships or heal relationships or improve relationships that seem stuck or stale or injured. And it is such a beautiful idea that as we see ourselves more clearly and as we understand the ways that everyone is different, we actually feel more unity. It is so much like the body that Paul talks about in the Bible, that we are all part of the body, we are all needed, whether you are an ear or a finger, each one is important and valuable. And the kinds of tests and assessments that we take in Levels One and Two are really eye-opening for that in a practical sense. But I was also thinking about how you were saying that you aligned your heart and your mind, and that you see the value of building these bridges to build greater levels of community and to build relationships. And what is actually happening to you in all of these different ways is that you are thinking differently. And that is one of the things that we talk about a lot. A lot of people are telling all of us to be different. There are a lot of influencers in this information age, and they are saying you need to do this, that, or the other. But we are clearing out all of that. Like you talked about, the difference between principle and application, is someone's recommendation a principle or an application? How do you discern that? And once you know it is a principle, how do you apply that properly and how can you use those principles that you learn to change the way that you think? Because if you change the way that you think, then you change the way you believe. And those new, better, healthier beliefs that better align with truth then naturally bring about those healthier relationships. Lindsay: Yeah, exactly. Impact on Family Relationships Audrey: So how would you say all of this has impacted your home, the relationships in your home, the little community that you are in every day? Lindsay: I think it has helped save those relationships at home. My oldest daughter, in particular, we are very different, and it was causing a lot of contention. Before, I learned to recognize in what ways are we the same. I had to start there. What is going well? What is good about this other person? Where are we the same? How can I understand this other person? But then also add that other element of, okay, here is where we are different, and here is why, and here is why that might cause a little bit of conflict. And then here is how we resolve it. And so it was thinking differently about that relationship in particular. But then it is every child on down the line. I feel like I have been able to see the good in them because they are all different. I have five children that are all completely different, and I have been able to see the good in them, to help them to see their strengths, to help them work through false beliefs, to help them understand these core ideas that will help them to be successful, that will help them to be happy. And I feel like instead of being an emotional voice, I am more of a voice of reason. I feel like they listen to me and respect the things I say. They do not always agree with what I say. But there is a level of respect there because I think they have come to learn that mom is going to come to this in a principled way, and I can trust her. I do not have to agree with her application. But it has been a strength, I hope, for all of my kids. Audrey: Oh, I love that. And one of the things that we talk about sometimes that I think we have both experienced in our homes is it takes away much of the friction, because exactly what you were saying, that now everyone is on a unified hunt to get at the heart of what is really going on and to see a principle that everyone can then do something about, instead of this push and pull of, I am right, you are wrong, or it is my way versus your way. And fighting down at that level of application rather than principle. And once they get that, because I am sure your home is a lot like mine has been, over time this language of principles starts to infuse the home. And then you have a better way of talking about what is going on and what the problems are. Lindsay: And not being afraid to confront the things that need to be confronted. If there really is a problem, in the past I would have avoided it, and the problem would have just kept getting bigger. I am an avoider. That is one of the ways to be a victim. And now, because my thinking has changed, because I have a more solid foundation and principles to back up the things that I want, I have more courage to do the hard things that need to be done, to have those hard conversations that sometimes need to be had. I have more clarity about what actually needs to be said or what needs to be changed and why it needs to be changed. It is not just because I said so, but it is actually because this is causing disorder in our family. That is how we know a principle is being broken, right? Because you get the contention, you get the disorder, you have this lack of peace. And so to be able to recognize it and then have the courage to deal with it and to know what to do to deal with it, I think has been very empowering. Audrey: That is awesome. What is it that gives you the courage? Why do you think your courage has increased? Lindsay: For me, I think it is the principles. It is knowing those things that we ought to do, those things that will, in the long term and often in the short term, lead to peace and happiness and success. Just knowing that there is an answer and that we can know it. Audrey: Yes. And a corollary for me has just been hope. I am much less likely to fall into despair and to feel like I am broken or that the situation is broken. In fact, I have someone close to me right now who is really struggling in their relationship with themselves, and it has taken a while for me to help them see that that is actually the root of the problem. And it is so interesting because they finally recently have been coming to terms with, I actually do not really like myself. I have a problem in my relationship with myself. And then they started saying, but now I do not know what else. That is all I know. That is the head I have been living in all these years. Lindsay: And it served them, right? They developed those behaviors and those thoughts because at one point it seemed to be helpful. It was a coping mechanism. I have those too, and I have had to learn that I do not have to create stress in order to get things done. I do not have to white-knuckle my way through everything. I actually can trust, and like you said, lean into that hope. And so those old thoughts are no longer serving me. And I can do things differently, and then we can show our kids, yes, that thought served you in the past, it protected you, it helped you get through things. But you are different now, and so you can think differently now. Audrey: And it is so interesting because they got to this point of accepting that there was a problem, and I could see their countenance lift a little bit, like, oh, maybe there is hope. But then this worry of, but I do not know what to do. I do not know what to make different. And I was like, look, frankly, you are past the hardest point. Accepting that you do need to change, and that in fact you have misbeliefs and wrong beliefs and that they are not serving you anymore, and that it is time to make a change, is actually the hardest point to get to. Just like admitting that you have been acting like a victim can be the hardest point to get to. And actually, with some decent tools and a little bit of guidance, with some good principles, now that you know you have been believing lies, now you can just believe the truth. You can just find and acquaint yourself with the truth and start thinking more of the truth, more of the time, and it will start to correct itself. Audrey: So really beautiful. Okay. It has had this positive impact on your relationships in a myriad of ways, creating more unity, creating more self-acceptance, and courage on your end. So harder conversations have been had, more principles have been lived, and you have had a lot more acceptance of not just yourself, but of the people around you as a consequence of better accepting yourself, which is ironic. You felt more unity, more sense of community unity. Unifying the identities, like we talk about. Community Outside the Home Audrey: So let us talk about the community outside your home, relationships with friends, with extended family members. I know that you homeschool and you have a homeschool community, and some of them have been involved as well. And then you do things at church. What stories or experiences come to mind in terms of, as you have been lifted, you have been able to lift your family, and it has also lifted the greater community around you in some important ways? Lindsay: Yeah, so I think the biggest thing that I see is that I have the ability to influence for good. I have learned to say things, to articulate things with a focus on the principles. And so people are more likely to first of all listen to what I am saying, but then also recognize, “Oh, that is right, that is good, that is a good point.” So for example, just recently, I am in my homeschool community. I used to be in more of a leadership position, but right now I just teach classes. And I recently have been helping to create our class schedule for next year. And I could see, because of my experience, and I have been with this community for a long time. I am one of the oldest families there, probably been there as long as or longer than most. I have taught and I have done the leadership positions, so I have some experience. I can see things. Plus I have this great education that I am getting through MDM and through the classics, through the great books. I can see patterns of human behavior and I can see the principles, what is going to lead to long-term success and happiness and stability. And so I felt that as we were in a committee discussing these classes for next year, I was able to provide some really powerful insights and things to think about. I brought up vision. Where are we going? What is our vision? What is going to create that stability? Whose responsibility is it to get an education? First of all, it is the student's responsibility. But for a child, the parent is also responsible. So I was able to say things like, how can we put the responsibility back where it belongs? Because some of the systems and some of the policies have gotten away from the original vision, and they have gotten away from putting the responsibility where it belongs. Understanding the role of the community and the role of the classes and the role of the teachers and the role of the student. Just a clarity. So I feel like I was able to bring a lot of clarity and a lot of good questions to the conversation and to help people see things that maybe they were not aware of or had not seen before. And I think that is true in all these relationships outside of my family. I have learned to say things in that principle-centered way. I have learned to be articulate, and plus I am confident in myself. I do not need their approval, I do not need their validation. They can disagree with me. They could not do it. But I am able to influence and to uplift and hopefully make things better in any area that I am working in. Audrey: So you were able to lead out with principles and articulate some principles which then created shared truths that would resonate with them, so that you could bring them on board to some core truths and then ask empowering questions, principled empowering questions, that helped them to explore possibilities and to think a little bit better about how things could be different. And what did you feel like came out of your ability to now better articulate those principles and to bring them back to truths in their pursuits? Lindsay: I think that is what surprised me the most, that since I started the MDM Academy and as I have continued to get a really great education, the thing that surprised me is that people actually do listen. They actually want to hear the things that I say, and they generally agree with them. Oh, you are right. It is those first principles that are these intuitive things written on our heart. And all you have to do is just point them out and people are like, oh yes, that makes sense, that is so much more clear. Lindsay: And so I feel like, why would anybody listen to me? I am just a mom. All those things. The fateful words, just a mom. But I have these experiences and I know I have this ability to influence, to lift, to encourage, to make things better. And things that seem obvious to me, just because I have been living with this new way of thinking for so long, are not obvious to everybody else. And so I do feel like I am somebody that has something to offer, and that people listen and they want to hear what you have to say because it resonates, because you are speaking in truths. Audrey: That is incredible. That is so powerful, and I am so glad that you said it the way that you said it. Because I get it, for those who are listening, if you are totally where Lindsay and I were at and it is like, do not even talk to me about being a leader and being an influence and helping my community, because I am so steeped in what is going on at home and I feel so overwhelmed on the daily that I cannot even. And that is okay. That is totally okay, because we have experienced it firsthand. We know, we get it. That is what motivated us to start doing the work. It is just that when you learn to think in principled ways, people will just naturally seek out your leadership, your help, your insights, your meaningful questions, your feedback, because it is so needed, so rare, so different from the other voices that they are hearing. It resonates with them so much, and they know how badly they need it. And it nurtures something in us because it is written on our hearts, because it is how we were created. And people know intuitively that they need more of that and they have not known where to find it. And then you start providing this new perspective and way of looking at things and it is so refreshing because it is not divisive. You are not calling anybody out, you are not making any judgements. You are not telling people that they are wrong and they need to change. You are simply saying, let us look at it this way. Let us get down to fundamentals. Let us start from the ground up and then let us figure out what truths we share, how we can build on them, and what applications are best for our community. Church and Leadership Audrey: Whether that is your church community, because I know you have also brought these principles into your church community, and I know it has made a difference there. And I got an email the other day from a student who was so gracious and sweet. She just said, I just got asked to do some leadership in my church, and I would never have been able to do this a few years ago. And I am a little bit, honestly, a little above my pay grade still. But I am excited for the opportunity, excited to bring the principles in, and I only have the self-acceptance and the confidence and the courage to do it because I have learned to think so differently. And I am excited to bring that to bear in that situation. Lindsay: And it is interesting as we start and continue on this journey, those experiences and those opportunities just seem to show up. That next level of growth that you need just falls into your lap one day and you learn and you grow and you lead out and you serve. And then the next thing shows up. But it just happens naturally. It is not forced. It just becomes a natural outgrowth. I feel like the opportunities in my life right now are just a natural outgrowth of who I am becoming. Uprooting False Beliefs Audrey: I think it is a fantastic journey. I love it. It reminds me of something I have been building out in this training we did once and are going to do as an encore. Links are in the description for those that want to come. I was combing through some old testimonials and one of the women was saying that the academy requires a vulnerability and self-honesty that can feel scary, but it is really because we are pulling up the roots. We really are getting at the heart of things. And when you root out the lies you have been telling yourself and the misbeliefs you have about yourself and about God and about the world and about others, and you clear that up, other things just start to clear up and it creates room for more of those things that you need. And then you know yourself better, and you look around you and you can see. I hear often from women who have been through Level Three and graduated, and they are doing so many incredible things, holding retreats and putting schools together and serving in their communities and nonprofit organizations and helping the homeless. And it is not, so often when we do not have that self-acceptance and self-love and we do not know our gifts and talents and we have not worked to develop them and we are not principled in our thinking, it is so easy to still see the need maybe, but just shrink from it and be certain, I could never do that. But there is this new level, and that is why as we work on ourselves and we raise the quality of the relationship we have with God and ourselves, then it enhances the relationships in our home, and then there is more unity there, and then there are more people helping and more people encouraging. Audrey: And I would guess you have had this experience, Lindsay, but I have been surprised on multiple occasions where my kids are almost pushing me out the door like, no, you can do this, offering their encouragement, and saying yes, we are excited for you, yes, this is awesome, yes, you can do this. Lindsay: They love me and our relationships are better, so that is part of it. But I know that part of it is also that we are so intimately linked. They see themselves in their parents, right? Like we take a cue from our parents, and when our parents are more adventurous, when they are taking more risks, when they are more confident, when they are making a difference, it heightens our children's confidence too. Like, I am part of them. I come from them. If they could do that, maybe I could. Maybe that could be me. Maybe there is more to me than I thought. Maybe I could level myself up as well. That example is so priceless, and you just cannot put a value on it. It is a gift, and they want you to succeed because it means they are more likely to succeed too. Your success is their success too. And so it is a beautiful journey to bring them along on the projects that you feel called to and that you engage in, whether people are asking you or whether you are stepping out and offering yourself. They are both needed and beautiful, and it is such a gift that we give them that they see us doing these hard things and they see our example. Lindsay: And yes, they are rooting for us. And they see the change that has happened in us. And then they have that hope that they can do those things for themselves. And that is one of the questions that comes up, how can I spend time doing this academy thing and not being with my children? Does it leave my family out? It feels like mission excludes motherhood. And it is true that it does take a little bit of time away from the family. If I have to read something, I have to step away. But when I come back to the family, I am better. And then that allows them to be better. And then like you said, we just bring them along and now we are all better together. But I had to lead out as the mom. I had to change me first before I could have that kind of influence in my family. Personal Friendships and the MDM Community Audrey: So let us, unless you have other stories that you want to tell, I would love to, before we finish up, hit on your personal friendships. One of the things that has been one of the biggest surprises to me, and you were there, helping all along the way, building out this curriculum, and I gathered up all the best stuff that had helped me, and of course I just hoped it would help women. One of the things that surprised me the most is the caliber of women that it has attracted. And that is not because all the best women sign up. I think it is just because they become the best women. But I would love to hear your personal experiences with your MDM community, your MDM friendships and the quality of those, what difference it has made for you in your personal life to be just part of this group of women who are on this journey together. Lindsay: It is a lot of fun to have friends, to have a group of women that we have a common language with. First of all, we can talk about things like the drama cycle, like empowering questions, like telling yourself the truth. And we understand what we are talking about. So we can have those kinds of conversations. We also have in common that we have learned these things and we have studied these things and we are trying to get this kind of education. And so the conversations that we have are not just, how is the weather? It is meaningful, deep, transformational, even, conversations when we come together. And I get this perspective and this perspective, and then we come together, okay, what is the truth? And how are we going to live that? And so it is energizing, I think, to just rub shoulders with this caliber of women who are strong and confident and doing good things in their homes and doing good things in their communities. And their example inspires me. Just like our children are inspired by our example, these women inspire me. I want to be better and to do better. And so it is really, I think energizing is a good word for it. Audrey: Yeah. And comforting. Lindsay: Yes. And comforting. You are not alone, because there is a level of vulnerability required. We try to bring that into our workshops as well and to our community feed. And we do not, of course, everyone only shares as much as they want to share, and we have systems in place to make sure that nothing inappropriate happens or that we do not get far off track. But there is this level of vulnerability and self-honesty that, because that is what we are doing personally and because that is what we are doing in the program, we bring to those workshops and discussions. And it is comforting to see that others struggle the same as we do. And it is encouraging as they pick themselves back up and try again. And then we really do offer each other ongoing encouragement. When we feel stuck in the content or stuck with ourselves, there are other women to empathize, but then also maybe pose a good question that will help us think about it differently. And that is sometimes one of the most helpful things we can do for each other. Audrey: And I have told this story, I think maybe even recently on the podcast, but it is probably worth repeating. When we had the Mothers of Principal event and I went to one of the Airbnbs that some women had rented who had come into town, and I overheard, I was just sitting there, I overheard some women next to me talking. And one of them was complaining about something and the other woman said something back about her complaining, and then she turned to her friend who had not been in the academy, but had come to the event, and said, yeah, it is bittersweet because we all know better than to act like victims. And so in this space we cannot act like victims and just complain about stuff all the time. We have to try to say our piece and then move on and be creators. Like we all know we are supposed to be creators instead. Lindsay: Yeah. It is a culture that is encouraging you to be your best. We empathize, we get it, we will say encouraging words, but then we will also hold you accountable. You cannot get away with faulty thinking anymore. But we will also coach and question and help you. We all have problems. None of our lives are perfect. We all have hard things that we are dealing with. Nobody gets away from that. But we can come together and ask questions, help to identify the principles, hold each other accountable, and just encourage each other to keep going, that it is worth it, and that we can do it. Audrey: Yes. It is such a valuable community. And exactly like you said, to watch women who have gone through this process, and it is not like Audrey is not magical. She does not have superpowers. I am no different than you, really legitimately. We just have been through this process of changing the way that we think about God and ourselves and the world. We see the world through this lens of natural law, which brings us ongoing hope and optimism that we can find answers, that truth will make us free. And then we dig into material that helps us to think differently on an ongoing basis. And to your point, what you were saying a minute ago, Lindsay, we have a schedule built out of thirty minutes a day for a reason, because that is what all of us can probably find. But it is also super important that you have that ongoing drip, and then you just ponder. And you just see it. And you just, it opens your eyes and then you look for it. And half of the battle, if not more, is just seeing it. Then you have some tools and some guidance to help you walk through it. And having those women in front of us all the time, that is why I bring you and other women on the podcast. Amy was here and Katie was here. It works. It just works to learn to think this way. If I can do it, you can do it too. Lindsay: That is exactly what I am saying. We can do it. You can do it too. It is work. We are not going to sugarcoat that. Anything worthwhile in life is work. That is what it is. And so we are here for the long haul. We take a long time, we do a slow drip, and we get to know each other and we build actual friendships. And many of these women know each other in real life, they hang out in real life. I have had many women talk about, I found my people when I came here, or these are some of my closest friends now. Which I think for you and I both is also true. Audrey: Yep. Absolutely. Closing Words and Call to Action Audrey: Alright, any last words of wisdom to anybody who is listening to this and wondering what their next step should be? Lindsay: If you are feeling the call to come and be a part of this community, to go through the academy, to gain a better understanding of truth and how you can know it and use it in your life, then listen to it. I think part of the nature of truth is that it compels action. We cannot, once we know the truth, we cannot not act. And so if this is something that is resonating with you, it is something to take some time and to listen to and to pursue. Audrey: That is a great way to put it. Thank you so much, Lindsay. You are, thank you. We are grateful for you every day. For those who decide to join us in the academy, you will get to know Lindsay, so that is a bonus. Come join us. Audrey: And for those of you that want to come to the encore training, it is going to happen soon. The link is in the description. We would love to have you there. If some of these things are resonating with you and you are feeling like you want to know more and learn more and get involved, we would love to have you at the event in the fall. And if you sign up soon, that is better because Lindsay is mentoring that community. Come join us. We are sending out some awesome emails. There is a recorded workshop you can watch. You are going to learn all about the six types of victim, and you are going to be part of a community immediately that is nurturing you and helping you to prepare for this Mothers of Creation event in the fall. We would love for you to come. We would love for you to bring your friends, your sister, your mother, your aunt, your cousin. Share in this experience together. Build community with them through this principled lens and learn how to step out of victim and be a creator. So thank you so much for joining us today. We are so glad to be here and serve you. Have a wonderful day. We will see you next time.
EP 153 You Were Never Meant to Do This Alone
Resource Links from Episode: Mothers of Creation - Provo, Utah - September 26th New Commonwealth Schools - Connect with Brenda I want to tell you about a wonderful woman named Brenda. Brenda is 55 years old, a mother of six, grandmother of seven, and one of the wisest, most joyful women I know. She has been homeschooling since her oldest was five years old. She has started schools, built communities, coached founders, and dragged her kids across the country on the kinds of adventures that sound impossible until someone actually does them. But when she first started homeschooling, there was one thing that absolutely terrified her. Poetry. I am not joking. She looked at the whole beautiful, overwhelming calling in front of her and thought, okay, I can do this. And then she got to poetry and decided, nope. We are not doing poetry. If the Lord wants my kids to love poetry, He is going to have to find another way. And then He did. A woman showed up in her little homeschool co-op who loved literature. She took Brenda's two little girls, who were maybe eight and six at the time, and she turned them into poets. Glitter. Crowns. Laminated placemats. The whole thing. Her passion was contagious, and those little girls caught it. Brenda told me that moment changed everything for her because it showed her something she had forgotten: she didn't have to do it all by herself. She just needed her people. I think about that a lot when I talk to women who feel the pull to do more, be more, give more, and then wonder if they even have what it takes. Maybe that's you right now. Maybe you feel called to something, your home, your kids, your community, your church, and you are showing up every single day, but there's this low hum underneath everything that sounds a lot like, Is this enough? Am I enough? Where do I even start? I recorded a podcast episode with Brenda this week, and I think you need to hear it. AI Generated Transcript Introduction Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission- Driven Life and founder of Mission-Driven Mom, and today I have a dear friend, an incredible woman, Brenda Hawes. I'm super excited for you to meet her. I'm going to tell you a little bit about her professionally. She is an MDM student. She has done some of the academy and had a great experience. She'll talk about that in just a minute. But in addition to that, she also builds communities. She is a professional community builder, if that is a thing that you could have as a title. She started her own homeschool group back in the nineties, back in the other century, because we're so old. And then she just grew into that. She started helping Commonwealth schools. They grew, and it grew into her own company, New Commonwealth Schools. She helps communities all across the country to grow and thrive. Super passionate about education, the ideals, and the principles that help us to grow and develop individually and in our greater community, in our families, first and foremost in educational spaces and beyond. And she is the mother of six and the grandmother of seven. So that's pretty awesome. So meet Brenda. She's incredible. We've been friends for a long time. I adore her. But we're going to talk more about community again this week and why it matters so much. So let's start with this, Brenda. I already know that you knew about MDM because you knew me. Brenda: Yes. Audrey: And we were doing masterminding together. It was super cool. I was working on this passion project, and you got excited and got involved. So tell us a little bit about it. Maybe we will work from the MDM perspective first and go into the greater question of what community means at large and the communities you work with. What was happening in your home, in your life, in your community before you adopted the MDM program into that? And what kind of a difference or a shift did you see through that process? The Search for Rich Community Brenda: I'm going to back up just a little bit. Okay. First of all, thank you for having me. This is so fun when we get to connect again. So I've moved around a fair amount and have been homeschooling ever since my baby was five, so from the very beginning. And some of the places that I've been have had really rich homeschool communities. And by that, when I talk about rich, I'm talking about being able to sit down and have a really amazing conversation with the other moms at the park, or the other moms in the co-op, or somebody that I meet who happens to homeschool. Can we have a really in- depth, meaningful conversation? And I've been in places where that was true, and I've been in places where that was not true. In fact, one place we lived, I told my husband, that's it. I've done my year here, and I can't do this anymore, because all these moms wanted to talk about was stuff that I felt like had no real impact on our children or on our lives or on the community. It was no deeper than, “What's your latest math curriculum?” And I was so sad. I missed that level of feeling like I was growing every time a conversation was happening. Audrey: Yes. Brenda: And so we moved back to someplace where we'd been before, and then we ended up here in St. George, actually, where I am now. And it was a great community, great women, smart, wise, wonderful mothers, and people who really cared. And it was awesome. But there was a huge difference between before MDM and after MDM. So yes, you and I were connected. I knew about MDM, and I was excited to get on that path and start that journey. And so I wanted to grab all these women that I loved, who were in my group, that I was so connected to. I loved their kids, I loved them. We all really knew each other's values and where we were coming from, and I thought, “Let's all do this journey together. “ Audrey: “Let's do it.” MDM and the Growth of Deep Conversation Brenda: And we did. That was an incredible year for us. And I think one of the reasons why was because it was great content. The content itself really encouraged these great, deep conversations. It wasn't fluff, and it wasn't just superficial. It wasn't just rehashing the events of a book and seeing if we knew the timeline or could name the characters from a fiction book. That was not what it was. It was actually discussing character and values, and how a character's choices would apply to us, and how we saw our values mirrored in them or not mirrored in them. That led to deeper conversations, which led to this beautiful vulnerability that had to happen in the class. And that came over time. It's not like you just jump in with a group of people and automatically have that. But it did grow, and it grew steadily, and we were able to celebrate the things that were different in each of us and also celebrate the things that were similar. We really learned to hold space for other people and be excited about their things, even if they weren't our own, because we knew they would turn around and do the same. I think that one of the things I look back on, and I joke with my students now that I'm an old lady, right? I'm 55, and I'm older than most of their mothers. But I look at my forties as this incredible time of growth for me. And MDM was a huge part of that. I felt like a grown-up when I was going through MDM. I felt like these are questions and books and content and things that matter and that are actually going to make me a wiser person. So it was exciting to dig into it, and I saw the growth in myself, and it has made a huge difference in me. It also made a huge difference in our community because I wanted the moms who were the moms of my children's friends to have the same foundation I had, to have that same stable platform and the confidence in who they were. Because that gets passed on to their kids, and then to the family cultures, and then to the community. Audrey: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was awesome. So one of the things that I've been talking about on the podcast lately is the root word "commune." The root word for communion, communication, and community. The root word "commune" actually means to unite your identity. And I've been talking about how all of these components connect, and I love that you said you could see your differences, but then you could celebrate them, and then you could see what was the same and celebrate that too. So my question then would be, did you feel that as your community focused on truth as an adventurous quest, and as they had the courage to become more vulnerable and open up in new ways, that there was more of that unity, that feeling of being more united in your identities, seeing each other more clearly, and wanting more of the same things and working together more harmoniously? Vulnerability and the Safety of Shared Truth Brenda: A hundred percent. Because not only did we start to see those differences and those similarities, but because we were opening up and being vulnerable, we found that it was a safe space. And I don't think you really find safety without being vulnerable first. You have to test the water, dip your toe in, or jump in all the way, whichever way you're going to do it. You have to be adventurous in order to find out if a space is safe. And what we found was the space was safe. And then what we were able to do, because we trusted each other, is as a community we were able to work together outside of the MDM classroom. As a group of women who were running this community, we were able to open up and say, "This is how I feel.” It's different than how you feel, but it's how I feel. Because now we felt safe in saying those things, sharing those different opinions, and we knew that what we shared would be held as sacred. Nobody was feeling as threatened. A lot of times when somebody comes at you with a different opinion, you might feel threatened by it. But we learned that wasn't threatening. It was something to be celebrated, and it was helpful to hear all the different opinions in order to make a wise decision. You've got to hear all of it. Audrey: So why has community become your passion? Why does community matter so much to you? Why Community Became a Passion Brenda: I don't know why, but I feel a little teary right now. I think it started out because number one, I'm a very social person. I just am. I love other people. I always have since I was a child. I loved other people. They were interesting to me. I loved the different perspectives they brought to my life. And there's a synergy there that I started to recognize, and I really felt how much I needed that synergy when I started homeschooling. There's a story that I tell all the time about when I first started homeschooling. I thought, okay, I think I can do this. I was a young mom, probably about 25, and my oldest wasn't even five yet. I thought, “Okay, we'll read lots of stories. How can we make this fun and engaging?” But there was one thing that I knew I couldn't do, and that was poetry. I don't know why, but poetry was the one thing at that point that scared me. And I just decided, you know what, we're just not going to do poetry in my homeschool. We're going to make sure my kids at least don't inherit a hatred of learning because of poetry. Maybe if the Lord wants them to get that somehow, he'll provide a way. But fast forward a couple of years, and there was a woman who was placed in my life, and I'm going to call her out by name because I love her dearly and she deserves credit for this every single time. Her name was Lisa Morehead. And Lisa was a part of our first little homeschool group that we did, and she loved literature of all kinds. And she took my two little girls, who were probably eight and six at the time, and she turned them into poets. She introduced different styles of poetry to them. She made it fun. They turned it into artwork. I'm talking glitter and crowns and the whole thing, laminated placemats. It wasn't a big deal, but her passion was contagious. And that just solidified for me that what I was doing as a homeschool mom meant I didn't have to do it all by myself. I could bring other people into my children's lives. And they could have everything that they needed through the community. The community brought that. Audrey: Yes. And every year it was different. You would have one family move out, and another couple of families move in, and those moms would bring different skill sets and different ideas and backgrounds, and it just made your children's experience and your own experience all the better. Brenda: Yeah. Like we build together. That's just how we are, I think. Community and the Empowerment of Mothers Audrey: How do you feel like the communities that you've helped to build or participated in contributed to your ability to build the family culture that you wanted to have? Brenda: I think as I built my own communities and started helping others build theirs, one of the things I saw was the growth of women and the strength of women and what they could do, and that was beautiful to me. I would start coaching a new chairperson or a founder of a school, and there were so many fears and uncertainties. But I was always excited to share this journey with these amazing women who want to give and share with their children and with the other people in their area. They are willing to go through so much to pull people together because they have faith that together they can do more, and have more power, and do more good in the world. That has constantly been a source of strength for me and has also definitely bled into my home because my philosophy has rubbed off on my kids. We joke about it as a family. My kids will say, “Oh, that's my mom. She'll ask for anything.” Because I am willing to ask, because I know that together we can do more. I always think, “Oh, this could be so much better with this or that,” and anybody can say no to me. Sometimes that comes as a surprise to people, but I tell them, “No, I expect no fifty percent of the time.” It's just a yes or it's a no and it's okay. I can just ask. And so part of our family culture is that you can ask. My kids have learned that. My husband knows that about me. I'm not going to say he's agood asker yet. We've only been married for thirty-six years, so surely there's more time and it'll rub off on him. Audrey: Sure. Brenda: He sometimes likes to joke about it. But I do think it has empowered my kids to go out in the world and know there are no limits. That's how I feel. You get together a group, a community, and of course, in my case, it's usually a group of moms, and there's nothing we can't do. We can take our kids to Kenya and have them have this amazing experience. We can take them to Washington D.C. We can have this amazing educational experience where kids are willing to grit their teeth and hold themselves up by their fingernails trying to get all the homework done and everything else. And what are they doing it for? Not for grades. Not for a GPA. But they're willing to do it because they know it's going to be great. And those are things we've done together. We've created that culture, we've created those environments and helped inspire our children and inspire ourselves to heights that I believe would not have happened if it was just us alone. Finding Your People Audrey: Wow. That's incredible. And I feel like there are plenty of people out there who don't homeschool. Maybe you coach basketball for teenagers, and you get to know people at the games and have experiences, or you belong to a church, and you say hi to your neighbors, and you know who they are. But I just know for myself, when I was a young mom, and I was exhausted, and I knew I needed something, but couldn't have articulated what, I needed to be alive and awake to my own potential. I needed to know how to pursue answers to my problems, and I needed to be surrounded by people who would walk with me on that journey. I had a wonderful family and good friends, and had always gone to church, and that was wonderful. But there really was not anything like what you're communicating until I found liberal arts education and then went on to build my own programs and systems and to surround myself with like-minded women in that same way. And it's addicting. You come to feel like you just can't live without it. You need your people because you know what life felt like when you didn't have them, and you know the mental and emotional and sometimes even spiritual loneliness. Because the kinds of things you're talking about are super regenerative. The challenge of raising the funds to get the kids to Kenya, everything about it, there are a million moving parts, and it's a challenge for everybody. And then there's nothing like that feeling of doing it together, of pulling it off together. And in the same way, when you were doing MDM in your community, when you share the same language, when you're on the same pursuit, when you have the same goal, and when there's this added element of working on changing yourself, of needing to be more honest with yourself, facing who you are, being willing to change, being willing to let people push back on you and call you out on things, that's hard, but so empowering. Because then you see the changes in yourself, and you would never go back. You recognize there's a narrow way that you have to be willing to walk through if you want those changes in yourself and in your family. Anyway. Brenda: So well said. And I'm going to add to that. I feel so blessed because I am surrounded by such amazing women. They're communities in different places. I have my community in Colorado from when I started my first Commonwealth school, where we raised our kids together and went through liberal arts education together. We still get together once a year. We find a time and a place. And then I have that also here in St. George. And those are the women, because MDM is a huge part of this; those are the women that I can go to and say, " Hey, is this thing that I do annoying?” And your surface- level friends will say, "Oh no, it's fine.” But your real friends who honor truth and understand that you're really asking for a real answer will be like, "Yes, actually. Let's have a talk about it.” Audrey: “Finally, we've been waiting for you to bring this up.” Brenda: But those are the kinds of people I want to surround myself with. People who are going to tell me the truth when I'm asking for the truth. Now, maybe I don't want the truth every single day or every minute. I need it in doses. The truth is hard. But they are amazing adult women who can speak truth. And that is one of the huge things that MDM brought to our community. Audrey: Wow. I'm so glad. It's been a joy to watch the caliber of women that it attracts. That's been one of the greatest, most beautiful surprises, that women will come. We had a woman just sign up the other day, and it was pretty heartbreaking to read her self-description of how broken she feels. But I know what kind of woman she is, because she is ready and willing to make the sacrifices to face it. And she will see change in herself, and she will grow, and she will begin to conquer some of the things that have felt unconquerable. And I am so joyful that I get to be on that walk with her. To watch that happen and to be part of that transformational journey for her is such a joy. A Shared Mission and Vision for Community Audrey: So, is there anything else you would like to share about why finding your people matters so much or how community blesses our lives? Brenda: I'm going to share that one of the things I teach my founders of my schools is that they need to come up with a mission for their school, a mission and a vision statement, and that's the first thing I ask them to do. And I tell them, “Look, it's going to get refined later. It's fine. Don't stress about it. Let's just get it started.” Because picking out their mission and vision also means choosing an educational philosophy for their group. When you have a united goal, when you have hearts that are knit and working towards the same thing, now I'm not talking about sameness across the board, that's not at all what we're trying to get at. But this one big goal that they share, the struggle is still real. It doesn't change the fact that homeschooling your kids is hard, and running a community is tough. Running a Commonwealth school is hard. But that goal keeps you going and keeps you moving forward. And one of the hardest things is when people join that group, and they are not on board with the goal. And sometimes people need a little bit of time to really understand the goal and kind of test the waters and see if they're on board or not. But once they decide that they're not, my wish for them is always to go find another group that is aligned so that they don't feel like they're constantly trying to hammer themselves into the wrong-sized hole. The square peg, round hole kind of thing. That friction happens, and it's because the goals are not united. But when a liberal arts education is the unifying goal for your family and for your children, in a Commonwealth setting, that is so powerful. And it doesn't have to be about education. It can be a lot of other things. But have a unifying goal for your community, and that's what will pull you together. Audrey: Yes, so beautifully said. Having vision, clarity, intention, focus, and a shared vision is so vital. Any last words for our listeners? Any advice for them? Final Thoughts Brenda: Figure out what it is you want and who you want to be. And go for that. Make that happen. Be you. Be the best you can be. And I'm just going to say it, Audrey, because it's happened to me: MDM will help get you there. MDM will help you figure out what it is that you want. As you peel back the layers of things that are not important in your life and you start to find that focus and that clarity, MDM will help you do that. I'm not just saying it. I recommend it all the time. When I go and speak to my schools and talk to the moms there, I say, look, if you want to become really unified, do this. Get started with MDM One and then work your way through the program. We have had some of your schools do it. Audrey: Yes. And they always come back and say, "You were right. We made this huge change in our school.” Brenda: It changes lives. It's a big deal. Audrey: Thank you, Brenda. You're such a beautiful person. I'm so grateful to have you for a friend. If you want to know more about what Brenda does and you're involved in schools or homeschooling, we'll put the link to her organization below, and you can reach out to her if you'd like to know more about what we're doing.
EP 152 She Had 8 Kids & a Calling She Kept Talking Herself Out Of
Resources Mentioned in Episode Support Karen’s Mission The Mission Driven Mom Academy I want to tell you about my friend Karen. Several years ago, she was homeschooling eight kids, running a co-op, and carrying this quiet thought she could not seem to shake. A sense that God was nudging her toward something. That there was more. But every time it surfaced, she did what most of us do. She talked herself out of it. I don't have time. I have eight kids. Surely there's someone better suited for this than me. Maybe you have said some version of that to yourself. One afternoon, she was leaving her church's temple, and the thought came back. And something came with it this time. The impression that if Christ was willing to pay the price He paid for her, He must know more about what she is capable of than she does. That one thought started something. In this week’s podcast episode, you’ll hear Karen’s incredible story that lead her and her family to open a center for orphaned teens in Mexico and all of the twists and turns along the way. Here is a little of what you will hear in this episode: The moment Karen realized her self-doubt might be something closer to pride, because God knows her better than she knows herself How her mother's childhood shaped the way Karen sees every single one of those kids What it actually looks like when you say yes to something that seems impossible, and why the obstacles are part of the plan The miracles, small and specific, that kept showing up when things felt impossible Getting her family and husband onboard with her mission The teenagers who have been through more than most of us can imagine, and the light that lives within them The eighteen-year-old boy who found her on Facebook years later and said, what do I need to do to come to your school? And what it looks like right now, if you feel moved to be part of what she is building I think a lot of you are going to be moved when you hear this one. Be sure to subscribe to The Mission Driven Mom Podcast if you haven’t already! _________________________________________________________________________________ AI Generated Transcript Introduction Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey R, and today we get to spend a few minutes with Karen Bates. Before we get into our discussion, please go ahead and like, subscribe, and leave a review, share it with a friend. That helps us grow and get the message out about truth making us free. I know Karen Bates because she was a student in the Mission Driven Mom Academy a few years ago, but then our friendship grew and blossomed. I became involved in the projects that she is involved with, and I went to Mexico with her, and that was amazing, and so we just became better and better friends. The work that she is doing now is vitally important. They are just getting started. And I would love for all of you to know her, to understand better how she got where she is and the work she is going to do moving forward. And then if any of you feel inspired to support her in any way, she will let you know what some of those ways are. Then you can get involved in her mission work. She is an amazing woman. Her story is super inspiring, so I am super excited for her to share it. So, Karen, go about telling your story the way that you would like best to tell it, whether you want to go way back or you want to start with where you are now, and then tell us how you got there. Karen: Well, thanks for having me, Audrey. This is so fun to be here. I was getting kind of nervous before the podcast, and then just speaking with a friend and a bunch of other friends that I have not met yet, and it is going to be okay. Audrey: Totally. We are all just struggling through life, trying to figure things out together. A Defining Moment: The Seed of a Book Karen: I think I will start with a story because it had such an impact. It is kind of before a lot of this started happening, but I had been writing a blog about just educational principles and things I was learning through homeschooling and reading a lot of books. I started having this thought come to my mind about writing it down in an orderly fashion, like in a book. It would come to me every once in a while, and then I would just kind of dismiss it and think, I do not have time. I am trying to lead this homeschool group, and I have kids. I am homeschooling, and it is just a busy time of life. Audrey: So this was how long ago? Karen: About six years ago. Audrey: And you had how many kids? Karen: Eight. Audrey: Nice. And you were homeschooling all of them? Karen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Audrey: And leading a homeschool community as well? Karen: Mm-hmm. Audrey: Okay. Awesome. Karen: And so I went to a religious building of our church. We call it a temple. As I was coming out, this thought popped into my head again, and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should take this seriously because it is happening at a time when I am feeling close to God." But I was still thinking about the time. So I got in the car, and I turned on the music, and the song called "Gethsemane" came on. It is just a cello song by Ralph Gardner. It is kind of describing the suffering of Christ. I remember the very distinct thought: if Christ was willing to pay this price for you, he must know more about what you are capable of doing and your potential than you do. That kind of led the way to be able to do a lot of these other things. Like, okay, I must be able to do more because of that suffering than I think I actually can. And so I started getting up early and working on that, and it eventually came to be. That was one of the defining things that started me on this journey. From Book to Class to Service Trip Because of that book, I made a class and started teaching it, and I charged for the class. So I started making a little bit of money, and I thought, “What do I want to do with this?” And what I wanted to do more than anything was go on a service trip with my family. A dream I had always had. So that is what we decided to do. That Christmas, for our Christmas present, we were going to go do the service trip in Tijuana and visit an orphanage. While we were there, I was just so impacted by the kids. They were so ready to serve in any way. I remember asking where I could fill my water bottle, and three young men immediately said, "Oh, let me get that for you.” They were just so anxious to serve and needed love so badly. And I think I was specifically impacted in a deeper way because my mom had been an orphan in Mexico, and so I saw her in each of them. This need to be loved, this desire to belong to a family, this desire to just fit in, and to have someone care about what you are thinking, what you are feeling. I saw that in all of them. As we were leaving and said goodbye to the kids, I was just so sad. We got in the car and I just cried. I remember another pivotal moment as I prayed. I said, “Father, I am willing to do anything. Just whatever it is that I can do for these kids, help me know what it is and help me just do it.” I want to know what I can do because I cannot just leave and go back to regular life at this point. I was too deeply into this by now. Letters and a Growing Vision So we are driving home, and I had a couple of thoughts. One of them was to just let them know. Like, my mom always said, it makes such a difference to know one person cares. There was a leader in her church that started showing interest in her well-being, and that meant so much to her. She thought, “Okay, maybe I am worth being cared about.” So I thought, “Okay, I could at least write them each a letter.” On the way home, I started writing each child a letter, just letting them know that I cared about them and sharing some of the gifts I saw in them. The other thought was, I need to get more people out here. These kids need so much love, and I can only come so often, but if we can get more people coming out, then they can have a lot more of that love that they need. So I thought, “Okay, with this class I am teaching, and with my book, I can turn that into a humanitarian school. We could start doing entrepreneurship projects and different fundraising things and start getting more families out to visit this orphanage. So that is what we started doing. We created this school called Find Your Path Academy and started getting families out. We would do projects and plays and collect money. Families would go out, and we started visiting the kids more often. So we grew in these relationships with them because we just had more and more people coming, and were able to go more often because of that. Knowing the Kids' Stories The more we got to know them, we got to know a lot more of their backstories and some of the issues, especially the teenagers face in this environment. It is big dorms, a lot of rules, and a lot of just needing to make sure that you are staying on top of the rules and doing what you are told, because there are not enough caretakers. And a lot of times, as a teenager, as you know, with teenagers, they need to be heard; they need to be listened to. So they struggled a lot with that. And I would come back, and a couple more kids had run away every time. It was rough to not know where they were. Then a lot of them would start to contact me. They found me on Facebook or something, and they would say, “Hey, I am at this other place now.” One particular kid contacted me, and he said, "I am on the streets. I am not sure what to do. I just know I cannot go back because they will put me in a rehab center, and those places are rough, but I am hungry. I do not know where to go.” And here I am in Utah. I wish I could be there to do something to help him in some way. This kid was only 13, but he was really mature for his age. Every time we would have a devotional with the kids, we started going in the summers for like a month. We did that for a couple of summers, and we would have these summer programs and do devotions with them. And this young man was really impacted by this. He would always raise his hand and answer questions. He asked if he could memorize a child's prayer. He really would gravitate toward wanting to be good, but he did not feel like he could in that environment because he was often angry at the way he was treated. He needed help, and I was not sure how to help him. I just tried to give him advice. I said, "Well, you know, the orphanage is better than living on the streets, and what is going to happen if you stay on the streets?” He said, "I am going to turn myself in. There are a lot of cops around where I am at. I am just going to go turn myself in. Hopefully, I can see you again. I will most likely be at this rehab center.” And then that was the last I heard of him. I did hear that he did end up at one of those centers. But it was more and more kids like this that would contact me. I would find out what they were doing, and I just thought if we could be in Mexico, we could do something for them. What they needed most, I felt, was to be heard, to have opportunities to pursue the interests they had and to make an impact for good. They really, all the ones I met, wanted to make the world better. They wanted to break these cycles. They did not want to be the same kind of people that their parents were. Often, they were in these orphanages because their parents were struggling with addiction and could not take care of them. They wanted something better and different, but often when they would go back out into the world, that was all they knew. So they would go back to these patterns. And I thought in my heart, if we could just live in Mexico. The Email That Changed Everything Whenever I would bring it up to my family, they would say, “Well, that is impossible.” You know, my husband's job is in the United States, and he likes it, and he cannot work remotely. He is a therapist. So that is a hands-on thing, and we have a life here. So it just seemed like an impossible thing, but it would come into my mind every once in a while. We could do so much more. We could provide something there. Obviously, we cannot bring them to us, as much as I would like that. I did look into adoption a few times, and that is really difficult for Mexico. And it was not going to make the impact for all of the kids that I wanted to make. And so I think that drive home, that sincere prayer, just started something. I cannot even explain exactly what it was. Because it was so sincere, something happened that just made the doors start rolling in a direction where this would be possible. As I was looking into options of what to do, I thought maybe we could go sometime in the summer. That is what we started doing: creating different programs, figuring out ways to help these kids. And every once in a while, I would say, "But if we lived in Mexico,” and my family would say, “Okay, you are going again with that.” So I kind of just stopped at that. And then one day out of nowhere, this was a huge surprise to me. My husband sent me an email, and the subject line said, "It is time to go.” So I started reading it, and he said, “I have been praying about this, and if this is something that means this much to you and that you really want to try, then we should just go and try it as a family. Let us all just go and see what we can do.” That was a huge miracle because it was so unexpected. So he decided to take that leap, and we just sold our home. We sold our stuff, and we went to a couple of internships first. We did an internship in one orphanage in Tijuana, another one in that same orphanage that we often visited. And then we moved to Quintana Roo, which is where we bought land. Building in Mexico: Miracles and Obstacles We had bought the land earlier, after deciding to do this and planning to move out there. The house was not finished. There were a lot of things that did not go as planned. It is interesting to see these miracles and to see what happens, but there is also so much opposition and so many things that you are not expecting. We thought we had such a logical plan. We were going to sell our home. With that money, we had enough to start a ropes course business. Benjamin Allen from Class Ropes Course said he could come and build the ropes course, just donating his time. And he could get the equipment at a lower cost because he builds ropes courses. We said, okay, we can have a ropes course business. They quoted us a price on the house, and then we would still have three months of savings where we could start the ropes course business and have an income for our family as we started to grow this thing. And then we got to Mexico, and the house was not done. So we found this abandoned restaurant that the owners let us rent. We decided to clean it out and live there while we waited for the house to be finished. Then everything started costing more. By the time we had the house, all these extra expenses had been added on top of it. We had no electricity. We just had the house. And in order to get electricity, because we were so far from the city, we had to buy solar panels, and we were out of money at this point. So we had to use the credit card. We could not just live without electricity. At this point, my husband started to really worry. He said, "Well, I do not have a job. I do not have savings, and our kids need to eat, and I have credit card debt I need to pay back. I need to go to the United States and work.” And so that is what he decided to do. So, out of this last year, he was gone from home about nine months out of the year while we were in Mexico to get this started. And there were just a lot of little things that kept blocking the process. The Ropes Course Miracle Our road got super muddy, so you could not access the property, of course. But there were so many miracles. That was incredible to see because I think for my husband, especially, he needed to see that God's hand was in this in a very real way. There was a time when Benjamin Allen was coming with the ropes course equipment. He got stuck at the border, and he said, “I actually cannot take any wood across the border. It is against the law unless you have a permit, and it takes about a year to get.” He had all of these poles that he was going to use to build our ropes course. They tried three different times to cross the border, and each time they turned them back. So he said,” I am just going to have to leave the poles and take the rest of the equipment and start looking for trees that we can build the ropes course on.” So they were driving across Mexico, all the way from Utah, him and my dad in different trucks with all of this ropes course equipment. Meanwhile, we were like, okay, we are going to have to find some trees. The trees on our property were pretty small. We had not seen anything big enough to be safe for a ropes course. So we said, “We are going to have to go look.” So we went on several different hikes. We got a guy with a machete to guide us through the jungle to go find trees. A couple of Ben's workers showed up before Ben and said, "Well, let us go see what we can find. Maybe we can find a place for a low course at least.” We had this guide with us, and a storm started to come up. He said, " Oh, we better stop. When a storm gets like this, those trees are going to start swaying. You are going to get branches on you. It is dangerous. We should go.” And I just had this feeling. I remembered seeing a bigger tree on the other side of where we had been. I said, "Can we just go look on this other side? I just want to see it.” He said, " Well, you guys can go, but I am heading home because this is dangerous.” And we were like, okay. But we felt like we were on a time crunch. We could not just take days to find these trees. We had to find something before Ben got there. So we went around where I remembered seeing that tree. I took a wrong turn. I went before it, and there was another little path, and I thought, I think it is around here. We got into this clearing, and we saw one big tree. It is called a chukum tree, which is the hardest wood you can find, and it is the best kind of wood for a ropes course because it is so hard and so strong. And we kept walking, and we got to this little clearing, and there was this grove of trees just sitting there in the middle of this place. It was amazing. They were perfectly spaced out. Alex, the guy that was with us, said, “I have never seen anything like this.” These trees are always cut down because their wood is valuable. People come through here all the time chopping down trees. So the fact that they are still here is miraculous. And the fact that they are in a grove like this is extraordinary. They are usually spread far apart. Here they were perfectly spaced for a ropes course. When Ben got there, he kind of looked at it and just planned out the whole course in his mind with the trees where they were and built it, and it turned out so beautiful. This little jungle ropes course. It is so fun. Audrey: Wow. You just left the trees where they were and built it right there. That is incredible. Karen: Yes. And when we saw the trees, we thought, Wait, are these even on our property? We measured, and it looked like half of them were and half of them were not. So Alex said, "I will go to the land records office and see if maybe we can buy that portion of the land.” He goes, and the man who sold us the land happened to be there that very day. And the man said, " Oh, I sold that land. Oh, those trees? Those are on your property. I made the line just past those trees. And so those are all yours.” So that was amazing. Just finding him that day, and the time it would have taken to buy the land otherwise. That was really cool. Community Support and More Miracles A friend came to help us. She knows a lot about permaculture. Part of what we want to do with this land is create a kind of immersive experience for the youth, so they are growing their own gardens and having entrepreneurial projects, as well as learning English and having a path toward a career. We have one young man now who started pathways. He had to pass an English proficiency test, and then he could begin working toward a career. He wants to be a counselor. So Janelle came to help us plan out some permaculture things, and she happened to schedule her flight at the same time a homeschooling group decided to come. She got there a couple of days before them and was planning things out. Then this homeschool group arrives, all twenty of them. And they said, "Oh, we can do that.” So they started planting the trees and doing all these things that she had planned that would have taken us months to do by ourselves. Just people coming at the right times in the right order to get the projects done. Another example was this family that showed up out of nowhere. They were visiting Cancun, and they heard about us. There was a KSL news article that came out, and they said, "Oh, we want to come help for a day.” And it happened to be the day that we needed a lot of men to lift these bio-digesters into our property. So they got there and helped us lift them. Just God's hands so often in these little ways to get us to where we needed to be. So along with the things that seemed to be blocking us, there was so much of, you are on the right path, keep going. And I felt like, I am in this with you. That has been really cool to see. The Mission-Driven Mom Academy's Influence Another pivotal moment: when I was getting ready to start the school back in Utah, again, it was these thoughts that come to your mind. I am sure everyone is familiar with them. Who are you to think you could do this? You are not trained. You do not have this. Audrey: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Karen: And so that was going through my mind, and I was putting away laundry in the closet and listening to your book, “Mission Driven Life,” and you were saying something about courage. I cannot remember exactly what it was at the time, but this thought hit me: if she could do that, have that much courage, I can certainly start a school. That is nothing compared to what Audrey is doing. And so there are just these little nudges, I think that Heavenly Father sends you at the right times and in the right way when you need to hear them, that propel you to the next little step. Six years ago, deciding to move to Mexico and start a school would have been way out of my thought process. But little by little, it was, this seems like the next step. That is how we got to where we are. Where They Are Now: The Road to Phase Two So what we have been doing this last year is just trying to build that foundation. We have our house ready. And we realize that it is not sustainable to have my husband gone so often. It was not good for our family. We had to choose between the cause and being together as a family. We really should choose our family. That is a priority in life. As good as this cause is, we cannot just keep moving forward being separated all the time. I had two kids getting married in August in Utah. So we flew out of Mexico to Utah for their weddings. And afterwards we drove to Texas. That is where we are now, just deciding, okay, what is the next step? How are we going to proceed with this in a way that aligns with what God would have us do but is also feasible? Some of the thoughts that came to my head were that I have got to learn how to run a nonprofit organization. We have just been scraping by, asking for donations, and we need something more functional. I have been reading a lot of books about running nonprofits and getting an idea of how to structure it properly, having a board, and all the things needed to run it well. Also, we need to figure out how to get enough monthly donors so that it is sustainable. Even just to have enough to have the buildings continue to be maintained during this time, and have the kids be able to be educated. I mean, we were doing a little school with the kids, and it was good, but it was definitely not sufficient. If we were going to all be out there sacrificing this much, we needed to have something that was going to be really transformative for the youth that stay there. And then we need to talk to the state agency that has the orphaned kids to provide a home for them so that they could come and stay there in a boarding school environment. Get an education and have a real home. So we did find a couple who are amazing and willing to be house parents for our first home. That was a huge miracle in itself, because there are just not a lot of people who would want to take on a bunch of youth they have never met, who have been through the orphanage system, and parent them. That is not normal. But this couple we met when we moved to Mexico. She started a little school because she was homeschooling her two kids, and she saw this need in the community. In Mexico, if you are hyperactive or have ADD or cannot learn to read fast enough, they are just like, well, you are not keeping up, and they push you out of school. She saw these kids in the streets, and she would ask, "Why are you not in school?” Oh, they kicked me out. I could not learn to read or whatever. She said, " Well, I am doing a homeschool with my two kids. Do you want to come do it with us?” So she talked to their parents, and she started this little school with other people's kids. When we moved there, I reached out to her right away. How can we help? So we had this school that she started, and it was wonderful. I asked them, when we get a youth home built, we are going to need house parents who can provide a lot of structure. These folks are very loving, but also very good at structure, and they could have a home where the youth feel safe and have devotionals and have this example of a family. I asked if they would be interested, and in my mind I was thinking, this is a huge ask. But she said, "Oh my goodness. Ever since I was little, I wanted to adopt kids and to do something, to have youth who do not have families feel like they have a family. This is exactly what I have always dreamed of, and I would love to do that.” Her husband said the same thing. “Are you serious? That is exactly what we have both always wanted.” So they are ready to go. The program is ready to go, and the land is ready to go. Now we are just in the process of finding enough monthly donors and donations to start this first home and get things rolling. I think the foundation has been laid with the people and the things, and it is time for phase two. The Vision: What Phase Two Looks Like Audrey: That is awesome. So let me try to describe what I understand your next phase goal to be, and you tell me if I have got it right. You have this land in Mexico. How many acres? Karen: Twelve. Audrey: You have twelve acres. I know it is not too far from touristy spots as well, so there is potential to bring in visitors. You have this property, you now have a ropes course on it, and you have a functioning home on it. The goal is to build, as phase one, one building for orphaned teens in Mexico that this couple would be the house parents for. Do you already know that the state will let those kids come? What is the process for approval? Karen: We have talked to a couple of people, and it is just a matter of making sure that it is safe, so they would have to come in and check things and do inspections. That is what they care about. Audrey: Okay. So you would build this house, get it approved with Mexico, and perhaps even bring people in to do the ropes course and bring in income that way. The kids do not come with any money. The state does not provide it. No money follows them like it does with foster kids in the States. And so if these kids are going to come to you, then you are going to run them through this program. I looked through the first journal. You have been building out a series of journals, an every single day activity with a little bit of reading and answering questions that takes them down a path of connecting better with God, understanding themselves better, increasing their self-knowledge, making them think a little bit differently about the world and about how they could be in the world, and being inspired by the stories of others. Every week you have got a principle that you are focused on. They are introduced to this theme, and then the theme runs throughout the week and they interact with it in different ways. It is very readable. Very easy. Just a few pages a day of reading, so they could get through that and journal in less than half an hour. So logistically, what happens for the rest of their education? Do they go to a school near your property? Do you bring in tutors? Do they need to get some kind of diploma so that college could be a possibility? Karen: We would have tutors come in. Nan does the Spanish and the math and things like that. Basically, the kids each have their own little desk, and as they have questions, they come up. It is very much like homeschooling. We would have people there to help them through their regular curriculum. The one she chose is an Amish curriculum that keeps God in the subjects, and it is very sweet. Then we have been teaching choir and English. Especially in this area, because it is very close to a lot of tourist sites, learning English will open up a lot of doors for them. And then there are just a lot of sweet people in the community that we have met who have talents they want to share. There is a guy that wants to do guitar lessons and another lady that wants to do these dances from Israel. They have different talents they want to come and share with the youth. So we would want to bring in different people, and when volunteer groups come, we would want them to come and share some kind of talent. Also do some theater so the kids get exposed to great stories and the arts. Then we would start to learn about their interests and get them the resources they need to delve deeper into those interests, whether that be books, or an instrument, or entrepreneurship. They can have a piece of land that they can start growing and making something with. They can start selling those things, seeing what works and what does not. The curriculum or the program that I wrote is to help them learn how to make and keep inspired goals. They start to be led down this path, and then they start to know, Okay, I am going to try this. And then they are able to more easily start to see what their gifts and talents are and what they want to pursue. Preparing Youth for College and Careers Audrey: You mentioned earlier that some of the kids are now doing online college courses. The pathway in there is to pass the GED or to have a transcript or things like that. I am just trying to resolve a few concerns, for those who might think seriously about supporting you financially or otherwise, about whether your program will properly prepare them. Will they really be ready to do college and move on? Karen: To your point about whether they will be able to get good jobs, what has happened is that because Joanna is a certified teacher, she can certify through elementary and junior high, which has been really helpful. But several of the kids we have met were not able to even get out of elementary school, and they are like seventeen or eighteen. So at that point, we have to say, okay, we cannot really go back and do all of that. There is a program where they can do a two-year packet, kind of like an adult version, to get their diploma. The other option is also to go through BYU Pathways. The young man who is in BYU Pathways now did not graduate from junior high. But he passed the English proficiency test and was able to get into BYU Pathways and start a degree in youth counseling. That is what he wants to do. So there are different ways to navigate having a legal diploma, through programs in the department that you can get that through, but you can also find other avenues depending on what each student needs. Audrey's Reflection on the Orphanage Visit Audrey: I want to share a little bit for those listening, because one of the ways Karen and I really got to be better friends was the second year that she returned to the orphanage in Mexico. I had wanted to do a service trip with my family for a long time. It just felt like it was time. It was in the fall, and I wanted to do it at Christmas. It was our year for Christmas, so we were going to have all our kids. I was not sure how we were going to pull that off, and I just started reaching out to people I knew. Do you know of organizations that are trustworthy? Do they do this kind of thing? And Karen replied back, " We are going to Mexico, we have got eleven spots left.” There were ten of us. I said, " We will take them all.” And it just worked out beautifully for us to go and spend the week together there. One of the things to know about these kids is that, as Karen said, they are not always orphans in the very literal sense of that word. Sometimes they have one or both parents still living. Sometimes they are in contact with them. Sometimes their parents get them back. It is more of a foster system, but much looser and much less regulated. Of course, no money follows each of these kids, and they are often street kids. They are found on the street and taken in based on what the specialty of that particular orphanage happens to be. In the one that we have gone to in Tijuana, they do not take small children. What they do is try to keep family groups together. So the state knows if they have got a group of siblings, that specific orphanage is a good one to contact because they will be more likely to take them. They all have these specialties. Which is why it may seem kind of strange to those that are listening that Karen could just go down to Mexico, buy some land, build a house, and the state would let her have these kids. It seems so unregulated, but that is kind of the nature of how things work there. As long as they have done their inspections and background checks and feel that this is a safe environment, they will allow those kids to be placed with Karen. And she will get to capacity, whatever that is. And I am sure, Karen, that you would like to see that grow, have more kids than just the one house eventually, and have those kids go on and inspire other kids to move forward in their lives as well. In the orphanage that we have gone to, they have buildings in the back for the older kids. Once they have graduated out of the traditional K through twelve school system, there is a place where they can still have a place to live and some food to eat while they explore college classes. For example, one young man that we connected with wanted to become a barber. My son is a barber. They really connected. He was able to give him a little bit of training. We were able to help him figure out how to do that. And those little small opportunities come up quite a bit, especially if you can help these kids key into something that is going to help them go beyond a minimum wage situation and give them an actual skill, a marketable skill, and some tools. In the case of this young man, the ability to get clients and to keep a clientele. Then they really can build a different life for themselves, and they can learn from the poor circumstances of their upbringing, the hard things that fell upon their family, whatever that circumstance might have been. They can try to use what they have been given to build something else. It may seem strange to some of you that Karen would just go down there and kind of maverick this. But it really is the case that she legally, it is all very realistic to expect to happen. And it is also something that she knows pretty intimately, how things look and feel for these kids. She has been down there for years, in multiple orphanages, spending countless hours talking to these young men and women. I have spent just a bit of time. We have been down a few more times to this particular orphanage ourselves. Karen has really been immersed in it. You touched on your mom's experience in one of the journals. You tell her story in a little more detail, that she was actually on the streets. And so you have, in your immediate family, a very personal experience in what your mom went through. You know just how hopeless this circumstance can feel and just how much these children need. It is such a beautiful story coming full circle, from your mom through you and back into Mexico. You have been uniquely prepared to know what needs to be done and to have the ability to do what needs to be done. Karen is still very much at the beginning stages. She is pulling her board together, but she has proven to herself and to the people in the community down there that she is serious about this work and that she is trustworthy and that this can work. She has paid a price for several years now to know what can be done, what cannot be done, how to go about getting those things done, and what the kids actually really need. And clearly, she has a gift of connection with them, because they keep reaching out to her, and they trust her. If these kids from these orphanages are trusting her when they have had just a little bit of connection and time with her, you can just imagine what will happen when they are actually on-site and get to have a real relationship with her and the other people she is training. A Young Man's Hope Karen: I had a young man contact me a couple of weeks ago that we met on our very first trip. He was not there the second trip, so we only met him once and for like five days. He was fourteen at the time. He just melted my heart because at first I would look at him and he would just look away. He was so shy, always hiding behind everyone. And towards the end of the trip, he would just follow me. Wherever we were going, he would fall into step with us. I would look at him, and he would smile. He would just beam. You could tell he was just so thirsty for love. He needed it so badly. When we went the second time, I was looking for him because I wanted to see him, but he had left the orphanage. I was sad. I never heard anything about him. And then a couple of weeks ago, he turned eighteen, so he contacted me on Facebook and said, "Hey, I am just wondering how you are doing.” I was like, " Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you remember.” And he was asking about what we are doing. At the time, we were living in Mexico and trying to do this. He said, "Oh, I want to go to that school.” I said, " Well, we do not have a school yet, but we are working on getting it.” And he said, " Okay, what do I need to do?” I said, " Well, if we had it set up, you would have to save up for a plane ticket. Then I would give you a list of rules that you would need to be willing to follow. And then once we get enough funding, you could come, and we could get you through whatever it is that you want to study.” He said, " Okay, that is so great. I am ready to go.” And I just see that happening, too. It is this age group. The teenage age group, right where they are. They have ideas. And a lot of these kids are so hardworking, especially because of the culture they grew up in. They have learned to work really hard, and they have often had to look after their siblings. So they are very responsible. They know that they can do great things. They just do not know how to get there. They are very clever because they have had to be resourceful. But when I see them, I am just like, Wow, there is this light and potential in these kids, and it just needs a little direction to guide them. And I think that is another thing my mom taught me. I see her now, and I am sure that as she was begging on the streets, people could probably walk by her and just assume she has no future. But she taught school for many years. She raised kids in this beautiful way. We all just know we are loved so deeply, and we have all been successful in different ways. Her confidence now is so much better. She has learned to grow through so many things. So I see her and who she has become, and I know each one of these kids has a divine potential, and each one of them can do incredible things for the world with just a little bit of guidance. Audrey: From the perspective of the kids, it is one thing for you to say, "I believe in you and you can do this.” It is a whole other thing for you to say, " My mom was you,” and for them to just be blown away that she has, from their vantage point, such a successful life and that they could raise a child like you someday, that they could overcome in the way that your mom did. It is so beautiful. Karen: Her story has always inspired me, just being what she has been able to do. I can just see how much hope it would bring the kids. How to Support Find Your Path Mission Audrey: So, as far as next steps and where people can help, what does that look like? Karen: Like I said, we need to just get enough monthly donors to have the ability to provide the program at a basic level. Our goal by January is to have two hundred monthly donors. We are at twenty-seven right now. We figure if they average twenty-five dollars a month, some will be able to pay more and some less, but if that is the average, that is what we would need for a base-level program. So two hundred families at twenty- five dollars a month. And then we are hoping to find, as organizations like Child's Hope and several other places have found, corporate donors or individuals who have the ability to fund the administrative costs, so they can keep the program running and every other donation goes straight to the program. That is another thing we are praying for, specifically, to find someone or a few people like that who want to help in that way. Audrey: What do you need in terms of administrative costs? Karen: When we looked at the people we would need to pay for, the costs are not as high in Mexico because the cost of living is lower. What we figured out was that fifty thousand dollars a year would cover that. Audrey: Is it possible for people to come down and volunteer at any point? And can you tell us the URL to go to and other ways people can engage? Karen: The URL is FindYourPathMission.org. You can find service trips listed there under the top tab. There are some service trips available that you can sign up for. If you have a group, like a group that is coming outside of the scheduled times, we can work around them and schedule their own service work. For people coming with groups, they do not have to sign up in those particular times, but if you have a family, those times are available to sign up for. We also need people who are willing to work from home in social media and events and things like that to help get the word out about what we are doing. Then it would be really wonderful to have people be able to come out and serve in different ways. We would love someone into cinematography, for instance, or just to get some good videos out about what we are doing. With the service trips, we would have the day be: get up, do some kind of work project, then teach the kids for a couple of hours, then have dinner and a ropes course experience or some kind of excursion or activity in the evenings, and then a debrief at the end of the day. Audrey: How much is it per person for the service trip? Karen: Six hundred fifty dollars for five days. Audrey: Is there a tab there to do the monthly donation? Karen: Yes, at the top of the screen, there is a donate button. Click on that, and it will say “one-time” or “monthly” and you can pick. And they can sign up for the service trip there, too. Audrey: What if they just want to be helpful from home and donate an hour or two a week? How do they get hold of you? Karen: We have an events team. We meet every week or every other week for an hour and just plan the next event and decide what we want to do. That would be one way to help, whether that is having booths at farmers' markets where we share information or being willing to take a booth somewhere. We have everything ready for the booth. They can take it and share information in different areas. There is also a volunteer from home tab on the website. And then we will have a social media and marketing team. So that is another way you could be involved. We meet every week for an hour and just start to make plans. This is all just getting started, and we are figuring things out as we go. Closing Reflections Audrey: Well, that is wonderful. I could not commend you more highly. I want anyone listening to know it is pretty amazing to have had this image, this vision of what if moms could uplevel their relationship with God and gain all this self-discovery and learn to understand and live by principles. And then what if they went out in the community and served and made an impact. I have actually had quite a few women who have been through the academy reach out to me recently, working together in a myriad of ways because they are out there doing things. Founding schools, working with nonprofit organizations, serving on school boards, or in your case, starting this foundation in Mexico. It is really beautiful to watch that journey. They were already the kind of women who would do those kinds of things. Karen: I cannot overstate the impact that your work has had. The program and the podcast and just this constant dose of, you can do this, you have courage, God is with you, it is life changing. It has been transformative. So it is a joy to be on the journey alongside you. Audrey: When you were telling that story at the beginning about your experience, about how Christ suffered, and so he must know your potential, I had an experience quite similar to that. The basic message that God sent to me was that it was a little bit arrogant of me to be self-limiting, because I do not actually know myself nearly as well as he knows me. When I say, I feel right about doing this thing, I know it keeps coming back to my mind, I know that whatever those impressions are, but I just cannot do it for X, Y, Z reason. I can still fall back into that and have doubts. But he really tried to put a stop to that and let me know, "Look, I just know you way better than you know yourself. And I can open all kinds of doors that you do not have the power to open. So if you will just take the step, I will just keep opening the doors. You do not have to be amazing or perfect or have it all figured out. You just have to be willing to take the next step and trust that together we can pull this off.” That is how I feel about the work that you are doing in Mexico. You are the one who is just willing to take the steps. One of the things I used to say to myself was, "There is somebody better suited to do this. There is somebody with a better education or more life experience, or who is smarter than me.” There is certainly somebody better to do it. But that does not matter at all. The Lord is just going to take whoever steps forward. It really is all about being willing to be the person who accepts the call. That is what you have done. You have given your life to him and told him that you will accept the call. And so it is pretty bumpy. You are back in Texas, and you have suffered a lot being away from your husband. But that testing and determination will bring beautiful fruits eventually. I feel like sometimes those obstacles come so we can learn to trust him in all the little small things, so that we can trust him in the bigger things too. Karen: It has been a very refining experience. I think that is why it had to have some obstacles. If it was easy, we would not be prepared for the next step. Audrey: Well, thank you, Karen. It is a joy to call you my friend, and I am so grateful for the work that you are doing. I know you love these kids, and they need what you are creating. I hope that as many people as possible will get behind the work and support it any way they can. Thank you for talking to me and for doing this. I really appreciate you. To learn more or to donate, visit FindYourPathMission.org.
EP 151 Finding Friends in a Fragmented World
Resources Mentioned in the Episode: Where the Clapham Team Got Its Name The Story Behind the Mission Driven Mom & Where We’re Going Next The root of communication, communion, & community Free Upcoming Training - Thursday, April 23rd Mothers of Creation - September 26th in Provo, Utah During the chapter of my life when I had three little kids at home - I had friends. Good ones. I had a family I loved. I had my church. But what I didn't have was my people. I didn't have a place where I could ask the personal questions I was wrestling with. Where I could be vulnerable with the things I was quietly asking myself about who I was becoming, what I actually believed, whether I was doing any of this right… And then, through a series of rabbit holes, I found a little liberal arts program. For the first time in my life, I was in a room with people who were actively searching for truth. And they weren’t just talking about it, they were hunting for it. Something in me came alive that I hadn't even known was sleeping. That's what this week's episode is about. Here's a little of what you'll hear: Why so many of us feel lonely even when we're surrounded by good people The difference between knowing things and actually being changed by them The story of a group of MDM graduates who found each other What it actually looks like when you finally find your people I think a lot of you are going to feel something shift when you hear this one. AI Generated Transcript Community, the Clapham Team, and Finding Your People Introduction Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of the Mission-Driven Mom. You probably remember 2020 and COVID. It was such a terrible, difficult, awful time that we all went through. We didn't see it coming. It came out of nowhere, and before we knew it, we were contained in our homes. We couldn't go places, everything was canceled, and there was nothing we could go out and do. It was so hard. And during that time, we had launched the MDM Academy and the Mission-Driven Mom just a year or two before. So we had a Facebook group at that time, and I just decided I'm going to get on and go live every morning. So we got on and we went live, we talked every morning, we did our gratitude together, we talked about different things that were going on in our lives, and we supported each other through that time. The Mothers of Vision Event That experience helped me know that we really needed to continue doing our MDM celebration, and so we concocted a plan to do it online and it worked great. A lot more women could come and it worked out beautifully. We were able to get a lot of women online, and we had to do it over two different days because there were so many women that we needed to mentor through it. That year was called Mothers of Vision — that was our theme. And we talked all about what it means to have a vision and why vision matters so much for us and for our families. What vision is, the tools for envisioning, and creating a plan around having a vision for our lives. We did a vision walk, all sorts of wonderful things. And when that was all over, we were just on the cusp of having our Level Three students come through. And I knew that they were going to finish and they were going to graduate from MDM — and then what? What was going to happen after that? And if you've been following this podcast very long, you know that we have a vision of changing the culture. That we want to walk with moms all the way through their own transformational journey — as they work on themselves, as they work on their families, and as they come to know the needs in their community. And then the Clapham Team is where they work together to have local impact. And so I shared a vision of being able to change the culture together through becoming the sorts of women who can see the needs in their community, who can be true servant leaders and make a real difference for good, and doing that with each other. So at that event — at that Mothers of Vision event — I cast this vision that we would have this community of mothers and that they would make a real difference. And if you listened to a recent podcast I did, I talked about where the Clapham Team name comes from, why we're the Clapham Team, and all of that. The First Clapham Team Retreat I announced it at the Mothers of Vision event, and the women were ecstatic. They were so excited. This was definitely something that they wanted to be involved in. And so the following year we had our first retreat and we did it here in Texas, actually at a private home. I don't know, maybe about twenty women were there. It was awesome. We got a house that was on a lake, with a large yard and a large home. We trained, we went through presentations, we ate dinners, we played games, we journaled, we self-evaluated, we made plans for our futures, and we did a service project while we were there. And it was so incredible, so beautiful. And then — as you know, because I recently talked on the podcast about kind of an update on the state of MDM nowadays, and where we came from and where we're going — you know that we went quiet for a time. Because of a lot of factors about how we were running the company, the structure of things, and internal issues. I set it down for a while, and I was rebuilding it on a new platform so that it could always be available for women who had purchased lifetime access in the past. But I wasn't sure what the future held for MDM. I was just going to continue to make it available and work on my own things. They Never Stopped Gathering What happened was that because we went quiet, these women — we had done this retreat two years in a row for the Clapham Team, and we had stayed in contact and done some trainings and things like that — they missed it. They missed each other. They missed the friendships, the relationships that they had forged. They missed having this opportunity to be together, to discuss great books, to share things that they were learning, to be lifted, to do a service project. And so they started doing it themselves. They still do it. Every year they get together and have this retreat. I think they do different themes each year. And the reason that matters so much is because for the first time in their lives, they had found their people. Many of them had never had friendships at this level of depth and connection. People that they could share conversations with around so many shared ideas and topics. People who wanted what they wanted — who wanted to learn and grow and develop and make a difference, but bring their families on the journey with them. Who wanted to be better women and better mothers and better wives, or whatever their circumstances were. And it was so nurturing and so beautiful that they are just still doing it today. It's incredible. Even though we don't offer it now, we are relaunching the Clapham Team this fall, and we are making plans for that and are really, really excited about that opportunity for everyone who is interested and invested. But this was so needed. It nurtured something so vital inside them that they just still need it, and so they provide it for themselves and for each other. Communion, Communication, and Community Now, if you listened to another recent podcast, you might remember that I talked about communion and communication — that they both come from the same root, which means to unify your identities, to really see each other, to really understand each other, to connect on the deepest levels. And another word that is connected to all of those and comes from that same root word is community. We all need community. And sometimes we have community at church, or friends from high school or college, or neighbors, or people we work with, or the soccer club our kids go to, or whatever the case might be. And those are all wonderful and they all serve a purpose. But many of us lack intellectual, emotional, and spiritual community. The kinds of people who understand what principles are and want to find and live according to them. The kinds of people who know what it means to be in drama and who strive to be a creator instead. The kinds of women who will call us out when we are lying to ourselves, or who will cheer us on when we use our gifts and talents in meaningful ways. Women that we could say, have you read this awesome book? -- and they would want to read it and talk to us about it and find the truth that it contains. Or share podcast ideas, or get involved in a community project together. We all need those kinds of women in our lives. Finding My People: Audrey's Story I've told this story often, and I'll tell pieces of it in the training that's coming up. We're doing an encore training in another couple of weeks. There's a link in the description and we would love to see you there. But I tell this story about my own past and my own experiences. When I had three children and I had all the mommy fog and the brain drain, I didn't have my people. I had friends and they were lovely. I had family and I loved them. But I didn't have a place where I could talk about ideas, where I could ask meaningful questions and other people would try to help me find the answers. Where I could discuss ideas and principles, but also what they had to do with me personally. A place where I could get really vulnerable about what was going on with me and in my life. And then I found these college courses. I found this liberal arts school. And even though it didn't have all of those components — it wasn't the same richness that we fortunately get to have in the MDM Academy, because it wasn't a place that was just for women and we weren't quite as able to be vulnerable, and we weren't all sharing so many of the same experiences — but it was definitely the first place in my life where people were actively seeking truth. Now let me just say a little caveat there. This isn't to say that people at church weren't seeking truth. Of course they were. And I had gone to church my whole life. It wasn't that we didn't have really good, meaningful conversations at church, or that we didn't talk about really meaningful, vulnerable, important things — we did. But this group, in these liberal arts classes, we had a shared canon. We had learned the same things. We had a shared language. We were learning some tools for understanding what truth was. We were actively on the hunt, and we were trying to figure out how to make our lives better, and we were doing it together. And it really was the first time in my life where I truly felt a sense of community around my own personal growth. Where we were on this journey together to not just learn, but to be better people. We didn't want to just read a book to read a book, or listen to a podcast just to do it. We wanted to glean those nuggets of truth and knowledge and goodness and beauty that would enrich our lives personally. Real Education Is Adult Education Mortimer Adler said that the only real education is adult education. And he is absolutely right. Because it is not until we really get out into the world and we have some of those big life experiences -- not that we don't have big life experiences as children or as college students, but when we are really trying to navigate life without all those buffers around us and the people around us to help us -- we need answers in a way that is real and relevant and immediate. And our colleges -- I don't know why they can't learn the lesson that writing for the professor is just not satisfying. It does not change us. It's a knowledge-based system, and knowledge is important -- information is important -- but information alone and knowledge alone cannot make me a different person. And without those deeper questions, without asking meaningful questions and principle questions and interdisciplinary questions, we cannot get at the heart of what's keeping us stuck and how we can move forward. And without a community that is pushing us along, that is encouraging us and applauding us, but also pushing back when we really are lying to ourselves, or acting like a victim, or in self-deception, or not following the arguments properly, or unclear about someone's worldview, or don't know how to be a servant leader -- those tools and skills and frameworks and practice that we get in the MDM Academy -- without that richness, we are left to kind of flounder. And there are really good people out there teaching us really good things, but we don't know how to weed through all of that without an understanding of the differentiation between the principles and the applications. And the community is what makes so much of that possible. Layers of Community You know, our first little community -- we do have a relationship with ourselves. That's a foundation. Our relationship with God and with ourselves is the foundation of all of our other relationships. But our family is really the first community that we truly belong to, and that belongs to us. And if we can infuse our family community with a common language about principles and truth and goodness, and personal growth and life mission, well then that community can be a support system to us all our lives. I now have people in my life -- in my immediate family, my husband, my children, my siblings, and friends -- who speak so much of this common language with me. And now we can talk about truth. We can analyze current events and parse through some of those principles. We can navigate life more effectively. We can push back on each other. And I've done this with friends, calling them out when they weren't living up to their potential. And they do the same for me. And it is so vital. And it starts with us. If we want that kind of rich family community, somebody in the family has to start it. Somebody has to get those frameworks and start the conversation and infuse the family with that language. At the Mission-Driven Mom, there are also other layers of community that we're involved with. There are the women who are in the academy with us -- women who are learning the concepts alongside us, along with an accountability partner or an accountability partner group that is walking with you step by step, day by day, activity after activity, journaling prompt after journaling prompt. And there's such an incredible sounding board. You are never, ever alone. In fact, I'll share something that Cadie said about this. She said: I found my people when I joined MDM. It's been a place where I've had people to discuss some deep and meaningful ideas and goals with. We all know what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring virtue back into society. It's wonderful to have a soft place to land after you feel like you've been in battle with negativity and a lot of the ugly things that are in this world. You are able to come back to this group of people who really understand you and can nourish you and help lift you back up after a hard day. It's priceless, honestly, to have like-minded people who are in the pursuit of truth, who share the language of principles with you, and who can walk with you on your path to your own personal transformation. And we don't just say, oh, it's a community because there's a community platform and you can post if you feel like it. No. It is a million times richer than that. We have an orientation meeting. We invite you to find an accountability partner, and there are tactical ways that we help you do that. We have a directory where you can find people who live near you. We have this annual event that you can sign up for and come to each year and meet people in person. And then there's the mentoring -- another layer of community. People who are just like you and me, but further ahead on the path. Who have made some of those changes, who have implemented some of those principles, and who are achieving a level of success that we can aspire to. They can become our new heroes, our new aspirational identities, the women we want to become like. And then there's the community around you -- your neighbors, the functions that you go to. And you can lift them. You can be the voice of reason. You can be the one citing the principles. You can be the one who is helping them to walk a better walk toward a more principled world. The Clapham Team, like I mentioned, is a space where you can do that upon graduation. You're welcome to join the Clapham Team immediately and to begin to be trained and supported as you strive to gather other like-minded women around you and to lift your own community in meaningful ways. This Transformation Really Happens There are so many women who have walked this path. I've been inviting some of them onto the podcast in the last few months. You've heard from some of them. You've seen that this transformation really happens, that it really is possible. There are women just like you and me who make these changes in their lives, and the community is a big part of why that's possible. We are uniting our identities around the truth. We are the truth seekers who are lifting ourselves, our families, and our communities, and bringing them closer to the truth. That liberation happens one mom at a time, one family at a time, one community at a time. And I want to invite you to become more a part of that, to learn more about how this can be your people. They're not just my people and Cadie's people. They can be your people too. Closing: Join Us for the Training And if you want more of that -- if you want like-minded women in your life who are going to encourage you and inspire you and also push back and motivate you -- then again, I want to invite you to come to the training that we're going to be doing and learn more about what all of this means for you. I'm going to give you some good tools and tactics to get you started, and it's absolutely free. Bring a friend. Start building your community right now by having a friend or a loved one -- a mother, a sister, a cousin, a neighbor, someone at church -- come to this training with you. Start building this language into your life and building a community around yourself so that it can lift you. And together we can lift each other, and we can lift the world around us. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a wonderful day, and I will see you next time.
EP 150 Why This Moment Matters for Your Children's Future
I made it through 15 years of formal education without ever hearing this story. And when I finally did, I just sat there thinking…. Why didn't anyone tell me this? It's the story of William Wilberforce and a small circle of friends and families in England who decided that someone had to do something about the world they were leaving behind for their children. So they did something. And over 70 years, they changed everything. I told their story on this week's podcast episode and I think it's going to stay with you. This is a little of what you'll hear: Why your anxiety about the culture is actually clarity, not weakness The moment Wilberforce visited a village so poor that families were living in caves and what he did next Why protecting your children from the culture is the wrong goal How moms just like you are already doing this work in their communities This is one of the most hopeful episodes I've recorded in a while. Because I really do believe that women who are paying attention, rooted in truth, and raising their families with intention are exactly who the culture needs right now. Come listen. I think you'll feel it too. And if you're interested, you can sign up for my Free Training "How to Stop Feeling Powerless and Become the Expert in Your Own Life" AI Generated Transcript Introduction: The Source of Maternal Anxiety Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and Founder of the Mission Driven Mom. Now, I don't think that mothers feel anxious today because there's something wrong with them. I think that they feel anxious because they see the confusion in our culture. They see the instability. They see the lost virtues and values. And they wonder to themselves, what kind of world are my children going to inherit? And last time we talked about you and your role as a mother and what it is that you can control — and that is yourself. And how, when you start working on yourself, everything starts to shift. And it starts with the way that you think. And not really so much like, oh, I've got to just hunker down and control my thoughts. It's like seeing the world through a new lens, through understanding how to see and identify truth. This is a new way of learning how to think that's actually very ancient, that we've lost, that we can start with. And we talked about how when you anchor yourself in that new lens, and you see the world in a new way, and you think differently, everything becomes different. And when you work on yourself and you tap into your personal power and you learn to lead yourself and better lead your family, then you put yourself in a position to actually be an influence to those around you. And I know for some of you that may kind of scare you or worry you, and like that's the last thing from your mind. You just want to get your house under control. But I want to cast that vision of how we can link arms and make the culture different. And I want to do it by telling you a story now. The Declining Culture and the Power of Mothers I want to do this because when you worry about our declining culture, you're worrying about your children. You're worrying about the world that we're leaving behind for our children and for our grandchildren, because you see that there's increased anxiety in children. You see that there's moral confusion, that there's identity instability, to say the least. There's rapid cultural shifts and there's a huge loss of trust in institutions of all kinds, and there are really important reasons why that's happening. You and I have the power to turn things around. We can link arms as mothers and make a difference, and I'm going to prove it to you. The Story of the Clapham Sect So I'm going to tell you this story about the Clapham Sect. I told you last time, we have a Clapham Team. And our Clapham Team is named after what was called the Clapham Sect or the Clapham Circle. I'm going to tell you their story for a minute. In October of 1787, a twenty-something William Wilberforce had, just over the last year or two, been through a profound conversion to Christianity. He had grown up Christian, but he had really lost faith in the supernatural and in God, and he'd had a reconversion. And part of this process of him really coming to God and putting his heart on the table and saying, okay, here I am, and offering himself to God — this is what he wrote in his journal: God Almighty has set before me two great objects. The suppression of the slave trade and the reformation of manners. And by reformation of manners, he didn't mean make everybody more polite. He meant something very specific. Manners had a distinctly moral aspect in his use of the phrase. He wished to bring civility and self-respect into a society that had long since spiraled down into vice and misery. He wanted, among many other things, to stem the epidemic of teenage mothers prostituting themselves to pay for their gin habit. It was exceedingly progressive of him to see such actions not merely as crimes, but as symptoms of a larger social condition that required the extraordinary intervention of those in power. He wanted to not judge the poor and suffering, nor ignore them, but rather he would reach out to them and help them up. So he felt that God had given him this mandate and he devoted the rest of his life — his health, his energy, his focus, his attention, and pretty much his entire estate and wealth — to these projects. He died with not very much money left because he gave everything to this cause. John Thornton and the Birth of the Clapham Circle Well, his conversion had been led out by a man named John Thornton, who was his uncle, and he was one of the wealthiest people in England at the time. He believed in what William Wilberforce wanted to accomplish. Not long before then, through a mistake with a law that was made, slavery itself was outlawed on the soil of England, but there was still an immense slave trade going on that England was participating in, and other aspects of slavery that they wanted to abolish permanently. And then this reformation of manners — in other words, making philanthropy and service fashionable — because it wasn't then, it wasn't the thing to do. In fact, there are so many people now who leave religion and say they don't believe in God, or whatever the case might be, but then they hold on to these fundamentally Christian religious values of philanthropy and service and good works, because they did this in the name of God. They did it to make the world a better place. John Thornton owned a home — an estate, really, he was very wealthy — about four miles outside of London in a place called Clapham. And his home, Battersea Rise, had a library there. This became the hub of a community of a growing number of people that did good works. And through their efforts over about 70 to 80 years, men and women joined hands and they engaged in good works all throughout England and beyond to change the culture itself. That instead of kicking the alcoholic to the side and ignoring him, it became, not at first socially acceptable, and eventually virtuous, to reach out and help that alcoholic, or prostitute, or whoever it was that needed helping. Why This Story Matters Today I have a couple of books. There's not a lot written on them. In fact, a few months ago on our Facebook page — I think it was on Instagram too — I clipped a little video. This was before Charlie Kirk was killed, and it was the interview that Charlie Kirk did with Jordan Peterson, and they're having this conversation about how the story of William Wilberforce is one of the most important stories that needs to be told in the history of the world. Because slavery was institutionalized, it was practiced almost everywhere, all the time, throughout the history of the world. And both Jordan Peterson and Charlie Kirk make the comment that it was years later in their own personal self-education that they ran across his story at all and became aware of the incredible work that he had done. This is absolutely true of me. And I was just sitting there nodding my head like, yes, fifteen years of formal education and I never heard about this incredible man that gave everything to eradicate slavery and actually pulled it off in his lifetime. And through this network of men and women that he brought together — two to three hundred of them over time, and probably more. Those were just the founders and the people that were working, but then there were so many local people they brought into their circles. They did in fact reform the manners of England and beyond in the West. Made it fashionable to do good works. The lesser told story, even more than William Wilberforce, is the Clapham Sect. The Mission Driven Mom's Clapham Team I could only find two books on them, but what happened was when I read Amazing Grace, we were in the middle of — I had been working on level three. We were bringing women through the academy, kind of for the first time, and I really felt like there needed to be a place for these women to go and continue to link arms. And now that they had these tools from these three levels of our academy, they needed to have support to be able to do good works in the culture. And we launched it. We actually have our own logo based on an image from the library at Battersea Rise. And we had a couple of retreats and they went amazingly well. And these women have now actually gone out into the world and done amazing things. One is trying to build — she has gotten land in Mexico and she's trying to service orphans there. Another — you heard from Katie recently on this podcast — founded a charter school in her town. You heard from Amy, who's got a school going in her area. There are women that have been on city council, that are working with other nonprofit organizations. Aaron is working with her community to help the homeless in their area. There are a couple of them that partnered together and put on women's retreats. So they have gone on to do incredible things. This process really does work. The Clapham Team itself went silent when everything in MDM went silent, which I talked about on a recent podcast as well. But now, of course, we're bringing it back. We're doing it again. We're institutionalizing it. We have new leadership around it, and we are super excited for what it can become. What the Clapham Sect Accomplished But the point is that the Clapham Sect linked hands and they did change the culture. I'm going to read you — like I said — just a few things about them. There was, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, a network of friends and families in England with William Wilberforce at its center of gravity, powerfully bound together by shared moral and spiritual values, by religious mission and social activism, by love for each other and by marriage. Their greatest and most celebrated achievement was the abolition of the slave trade and then slavery itself throughout the British Empire and beyond. They really knocked down slavery in dozens of countries through their efforts. They were founders of the British Colony of Sierra Leone, of Free Town, of schools and of Christian missions, some of which continue today. A number of them were members of Parliament and used their influence to promote causes from prison reform to the protection of Sunday, and from peace to censorship. They tried to reform the Church of England and achieved the moral transformation of Britain. It is incredible what they accomplished. So much of it outlived them. I'm going to read you some of the other things. They founded a whole lot of schools. They encouraged girls out of prostitution and helped them get on their feet. They cared for orphans. They helped boys in the navy. They supported Haiti. Prison reform. They founded mental hospitals. They even did work on animal cruelty. Pretty much any kind of charitable work you can think of came to their attention and they tried to do something about it. The Character of William Wilberforce As I mentioned before, William Wilberforce gave everything. His health broke. He eventually married and his wife helped nurse him back to health. He was in chronic pain for much of his life, but he spent all of his time and energy. It's amazing to me because he was financially independent — and some of these others, John Thornton certainly, some of these other individuals — financially independent, the quote "four hour work week." They had all the time in the world. And what did they do? They consecrated it to the good of society. They tried to make things better for the coming generation. They looked outside of themselves and said, what problems do we see, and they tried to make a difference. And this is what we can do as moms. We just link arms and we help each other with projects that we see in our communities and we bring principled solutions. That's the difference between many of the good works that are going on out there. We need to raise them to a higher level. I had one of my past students contact me a couple years ago, and she was doing this. She was trying to make a difference. She was working with a nonprofit organization that had quite a bit of outreach that was trying to help mothers and children, and she could tell as she went through their curriculum that it was not principled, that they had not delineated the core elements that needed to be brought forward so people could have a better understanding of what they were trying to do. And she was trying to bring those principled solutions to real world problems. It was so amazing. The Story of Cheddar Gorge I want to read you one last story from Amazing Grace. Go read it if you haven't. You'll read it when you come on the Clapham Team for sure. But this will just give you a little bit of a sense of the kind of people that these were. On August 21st, Wilberforce traveled with his sister Sally to Cowslip Green to visit Hannah More and her sisters. Hannah's sister Martha, knowing Wilberforce loved natural scenery, insisted that he take a trip to the nearby Cheddar Gorge, which afforded some of the finest scenery in England. Now, this is because he had been working tirelessly on all of these projects and he was worn out and he needed a break. So he went to visit these friends who were also people that were involved in all of these good works, and they told him, you should go out to this place, Cheddar Gorge. It's beautiful. It will help rejuvenate you. Cheddar Gorge is the largest gorge in the United Kingdom, with the sides of many caves. But during his visit, Wilberforce was less moved by the scenery than by the inhabitants of the area, whose poverty was extreme and, to Wilberforce, shocking. They had no school at all, nor any church. Some of the miserable souls did not even live in hovels, but scratched out an existence in the caves themselves. On his return to the Moores', Wilberforce was clearly of a mind to be alone with his thoughts on what he had just witnessed. He retired to his room to pray, did not touch his food, and later emerged with a clear purpose. "Miss Hannah More," he said, "something must be done for Cheddar." They discussed various schemes until the hour grew late. At last, Wilberforce declared, "If you will be at the trouble, I will be at the expense." And he meant it. Whatever they would do to help the poor there, he would fund it. Wilberforce insisted that Hannah not be shy in asking for his money. To do so, he said, would only be pride disguised as false humility. Over his lifetime, Wilberforce gave away more money than we can imagine, and he wrote the first of many generous checks to launch the Moores' work among the poor of that area. Hannah More soon started the first schools in the area and Wilberforce would continue to fund them for many years. Applying This to Our Lives as Mothers If we will be willing to be at the work of first working on ourselves, like we talked about last time, and letting that lift us, and letting that lift our families, then we can link arms and we can lift the culture. Now, just as we finish up, I want to hit on a few reasons why it's so vital that we do this. Because culture always shapes our children. It is the water that we swim in, and whether it's intentional or unintentional, that culture is always affecting them. And if we don't shape their worldview, something else will. Children are always being discipled by something. So the question isn't whether or not our children are going to be shaped by the culture. The question is what's going to shape who they become? And this moment is so pivotal because truth is being redefined. I mean, think about it. We live in a "my truth, your truth" world, which I never thought we would arrive at. There are literally videos on YouTube where people are approached on the street and asked, "Hey, if I told you I was a gorilla, would you believe me?" And they say yes. Authority is fragmented because so many institutions don't stand on solid principles, and because servant leadership is at such a low ebb. Trust in authority and trust in institutions is at an all time low, and families are being pressured to outsource their leadership — to let the schools, to let the social media, to let the sports teams, to let anybody and everybody else raise their children, tell them what to value, teach them virtue, or not teach them virtue, or beat down the virtue that's naturally in them, instead of the family. But the family must go on. The family must do the work. It is the fundamental unit of society, and it's up to us to shape the world that our children inherit. The world is rejecting truth and we need champions of truth. And if you and I don't decide to be them, who will do it? Who will rise up and do it? This Is Not About Panic — It's About Preparation Now, this isn't about panicking, running too fast, or worrying about anybody else besides ourselves. We can start with ourselves. It's about preparation. It's about just starting with you. It's about doing the thing you can do, controlling the thing you can control, because it will multiply. I was talking to a woman recently who has graduated from the Mission Driven Mom, who is in leadership now with our organization, and who has gone out there and done incredible works in her community. And we were having this conversation and she was basically saying, "I don't know how to turn this off. Like, I see all these problems in the world now. I see all these solutions that could be brought to my community, and it's just so hard to turn it off. And now all these people are reaching out to me. What should we do about this? What should we do about this? How can we solve this problem?" And I said, that's because when you lead yourself and your family properly, people see you as a leader. They know that you can help them. They know that you stand on principle because of who you've become. And so leadership will just become a natural part of who you are. And she said, "Oh my gosh, that's exactly what's happened. I just am seen as a leader in my community and I wasn't trying to do that at all. I was trying to work on myself, work on my family, and serve. That's it." Why This Works Now, why does this work? This works because a principled mother creates stability, and stability creates resilience. And that resilience and self-leadership that you gain and that you give your children — they take into adulthood and they help stabilize the culture. It also works because, like we've said, you and I discover our gifts, we put our own lives in order, and then we go out there and we try to serve. We see what we can do to bless the world around us. We become principled servant leaders who serve our communities and make them better, and that is something that we can do together. The mistake that a lot of moms make is that they try to protect their children from the culture. They just say, oh well, you can't ever have a phone and you can't ever be on social media, scratch all that. The mistake that many moms make is that they focus on protecting their children from the culture instead of helping their children navigate the culture with truth, because they can learn to see the truth and teach their children to see the truth as well. And that means clarity, conviction, and servant leadership. That's what it means. Starting With You That's all we have to do. We have to begin today to work on ourselves. So I'm going to run through what I read to you last time, because ultimately this all begins with you and your education, where we help you to think differently, and then everything changes. I promise, just everything changes. You become one, a mission-driven mom who works on herself so she can show up differently for herself and her family. A mom who seeks truth, identifies and stabilizes her life with it. A mom who learns to balance her own personal growth with that of her family. A mom who becomes intentional and begins leading her family to more principle-centered, meaningful, servant-leadership-focused living. She is powerful, confident, self-accepting and purposeful, and then she can formally as a Clapham Team member, or informally just in the rest of her life as she moves forward, she's in a role where she's part of a vast community of moms who are dedicated to lifting the culture, reinstating virtue and love of country, who speaks the truth with courage, who sees the problems in the community and works together with other like-minded women to bring principled solutions to real world problems. And when she does this — when she lifts herself and then lifts her family and lifts her culture together — we can all make the world a better place. Closing: The Encore Training And if what I've talked about today and last week is something that resonates with you, if you can see that your ability to discern truth, to build yourself up as a person, to meet your needs, discover your talents, lead yourself properly, to learn to discern principles in the culture, to know how to link arms with like-minded individuals in the community, to link arms with other women just like you, and be lifted and lift your family and eventually be able to lift the culture — I want to share more about how you can do that in the training, this encore training that we're doing in the next few weeks. I would love to have you there. If you feel an urgency about our children's future, if you're concerned about what we're leaving behind and the world that we're leaving for your children and your grandchildren, come to that training. We'll talk more about actions that you can take right now. I'm going to give you some frameworks and some tools that you can take action on immediately, but we'll help to make a difference in your home. And you can learn more about how we do this, how we link arms and identify truth to make a difference right where we are, by starting with ourselves and leading ourselves first. So the link is in the description. Sign up for that training. Thank you for joining me today, and I will see you next time.
EP 149 The Question We’re Still Asking (and why it matters)
Are you trying to figure out how to grow, make a difference, and still be fully present as a mom? For decades, women have been told fulfillment is either in the home or outside the home. But what if we’ve been asking the wrong question? In this episode, we explore what actually creates fulfillment, and why the most powerful investment you can make isn’t in a career path, but in the education of the mother. This is about reclaiming your influence, discovering your gifts, and learning how to lead your family with clarity, purpose, and truth. In this episode, we talk about: The real impact of the feminist movement on modern motherhood Why women still feel stuck and unfulfilled The difference between career training and true education How personal growth transforms your family culture What it really means to become a mission-driven mom This conversation will help you see that motherhood is not small, it’s strategic, powerful, and transformational. 👉 If you're ready to grow, find balance, and become the leader your family needs, join me for my upcoming training! AI Generated Transcript Introduction Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of the Mission-Driven Mom. In the 1950s, women and mothers were told that fulfillment only took place in the home, and after the feminist movement and beyond, they were told that fulfillment could only happen outside the home. But what about influence? Today we're going to talk about what happens when the focus is on the education of the mother and making the biggest investment so she can be the best she can be. The Feminine Mystique and the Feminist Movement Now, this book, The Feminine Mystique, by Betty Friedan, was the catalyst for the feminist movement in the sixties. And if you want to know more about the history of feminism, you can go listen to my whole series on that, which I did a few years ago. We talk about it much more in depth there. But for today, I want to read you how this book begins. The very first words that she says. Now, it's also important to note — if you don't know this or haven't heard one of my other podcasts about it — that not only did this book take off, but book clubs were formed all over North America and hundreds of thousands, eventually millions, of women came together in their living rooms. They read this book, they talked about it, and that was the catalyst of the feminist movement. And here's how it begins: "The problem lay buried, unspoken, for many years in the minds of American women. It was a strange stirring, a sense of dissatisfaction, a yearning that women suffered in the middle of the twentieth century in the United States. Each suburban wife struggled with it alone as she made the beds, shopped for groceries, matched slipcover material, ate peanut butter sandwiches with her children, chauffeured Cub Scouts and Brownies, lay beside her husband at night. She was afraid to even ask herself the silent question — 'Is this all?'" And the name of that chapter is "The Problem That Has No Name." Now, what Betty Friedan said in this long, thick book — through a lot of pages, and she did do some research and she did talk to some people — was predominantly this: the answer is outside the home. The way that women can feel great and have a happy life is if they go have a super fulfilling career. And one author, her name is Carrie Gress, said this about the proposed solution that the feminist movement gave us: "Feminism proposes to fix women's problems without having the right solution. Feminism started with the wrong question and it led to the wrong solution. Feminism has had to rely on power, manipulation, and control to enforce and extend its influence. Feminism offered us women's studies and women's health and women's rights, but they didn't tell anyone — even once solid data was in — that their goals leave women miserable, unhealthy, and wondering what we did wrong. They didn't tell us that the life they want us to live serves those in power and not us." Women Before the Fifties: A Broader Picture So — the pre-fifties. And this wasn't always the case for every single place in the whole history of the world, which is what people will tell you. And you can listen to my feminism series to know that that's the case. But predominantly, women were told: marry and have children, don't do anything else, and life will be wonderful. And traditionally, women were responsible for the private sector, and they found fulfillment in things beyond the home — like service in the community. But that was something that had tapered off. Many of the things that women used to do in society got taken over by governmental programs or structured nonprofit organizations. So the public bazaars and other outreach — helping women have their babies, helping people with their funerals, taking care of the poor and needy in the community, and the orphans and the young children — all those types of things that women used to contribute in society, they would marry and have children predominantly, yes, but they would also make these contributions by using their gifts and talents in the service of the community. And that had petered out. And so, yes, by the time we got to the forties and the fifties, there was the big surge with World War II when women were out doing things, and they felt the power and the excitement that came from doing things both in their home and outside their home. They were struggling to find that balance. But then as we really settled into the fifties, and so many of these programs were starting to pop up and take control of the needs of the less privileged in society, women found themselves less able to engage in self-expression. We could talk all about the educational components of this and the other reasons why this has been happening to us. But one of the most important things that was a result of this feminist movement — of telling women that they needed to go out into the workspace in order to feel fulfilled — is that we still feel like we want to be wives and mothers. Most women, if you poll them, still want that. But there's a stigma around it. And a lot of women feel ashamed to admit it, like it's weak or lame or old school. And we've had some generations of women grow up now and try to live that out — getting married later, trying to have children later. You know, the current spin on this is all these women freezing their eggs so that they can have career first and then have children later when they're older. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from Phyllis Schlafly, who said: women can have it all, just not at the same time. Because we want to have a season of bearing children, we need to live seasonally, and we need to find this balance. The Thankless Work of Motherhood But it is easy to get lost in motherhood. It is easy to have mommy brain. And it is easy to feel discouraged when you give everything and there's not a lot of people giving back. One of the biggest reasons for this is because it's a pretty thankless job. I mean, most of you probably have pretty good husbands and they see you and they care and they thank you. But for the most part, you're just doing your thing and you don't get paid for it, and you don't get public recognition for it, and you don't get to move up in the company, and you don't get to be on stage and be applauded. You don't get all the accolades and rewards that can be gained in worldly pursuits. And so what's fascinating to me about this whole problem is that we are still asking the same question that women were asking in the fifties and the sixties. We're still trying to answer the same question that Betty Friedan was trying to answer. Ironically, she herself was upper middle class. She lived in a big, really comfortable home. She had several children and nannies and all sorts of help. She had a thriving career as a writer. So she didn't really need it. And maybe she was trying to help other women — and good on her if she had those good intentions. The Same Question, Still Unanswered So women still have the same problem that they had then. And I'm not anti-feminist. I'm not saying it wasn't a good thing to let women have different kinds of jobs, or to have more options, or to be paid more comparably to men, or things like that. It's just that there was a mindset at the time. And if you go listen to the feminism series, I think you'll better understand what it is I'm trying to say here. Because it's not like it was all bad. It's just that the whole approach in the feminist movement was aggressive. It was a victim mindset. The problem is all out there. And again, I'm not saying the feminist movement was all bad — I'll say more about that in just a minute. But what I want to make the point is that because the feminist movement didn't have all the right answers, even though some progress was made in some ways, the fundamental issue for women is still there. And in some ways — and I've got some really good books if you want to look into this further — there's an argument to be made that maybe in some ways we're actually worse off. No one is allowed to say that the feminist movement left us worse off. But the fact that we are sometimes ashamed or a little embarrassed if we're not pursuing careers, or we feel like something's wrong with us if we can't find balance as a stay-at-home mom who wants to do something outside the home — finding that balance is so difficult. And it was difficult then, and it's difficult now. So the question that we're all asking — still asking — goes something like this: How can I be all I could be, make a difference, and be a great mom? I was definitely there. I was definitely that young mom with three kids and mommy brain, asking myself those questions, struggling to find the balance, wanting to — I didn't want to leave my babies and go pursue a career. But I was pretty brain-dead five, six, seven, eight years in. And so when I found the opportunity to begin to develop myself — after I had tried all these things, after I had tried individual therapy, marriage therapy, coaching, books, self-help, retreats, and mom programs — after I had tried all those things, I finally found a new opportunity that was going to educate me to think differently. And I said no. I said no for quite a while, because it felt to me like it was wrong. Our income was limited. My time was very limited. Blaine was working really hard to provide for us, but he was gone a lot because he wanted to keep me home — that was a priority for us. And so I was really grateful to him, but that meant that it was pretty much all on me to be all the things at home, most of the time. And then our income was accordion-style and commission-based, and so that was difficult. I just felt like it would be wrong for me to spend this money. I mean, I ended up over time spending — between books, programs, and all the other things I tried, including my bachelor's and master's degrees — over a hundred thousand dollars eventually. But even those first classes for a couple thousand dollars were really hard for me to say yes to, because I just felt like that was the wrong thing to do. The Best Investment a Family Can Make And then I read this quote. This beautiful quote that said: the best investment a family can make is in the education of the mother. And I knew exactly what that meant. That meant that I needed to be the best I could be so I could build the best family culture we could possibly have. That I could only lift my children to where I had traveled. And that in order to be what they needed me to be, I needed to be more. And that meant I needed to be working on me. And it's so interesting, because we did this training recently, and when the training was all over, one of the women asked some more questions about how she could get her husband to support her. Because he thinks that if they're going to spend money on education, it should be for her to get a degree — accredited, something that would allow her to earn more money. The underlying message was: if I'm going to get an education, if I'm going to go to school, it should make me a better breadwinner. And I don't think that's a bad thing. That's a very good thing, especially if the family could use more money. But the problem is that education — true education — is about helping you and I become more principled and more virtuous, to become supremely human. It's meant to build our relationship with ourselves, with God, with the world, with others. It's meant to make us the most of who we could be. It's meant to train our thinking skills. Historically, it was meant to come before the training. Now we have come to equate the word education with career training. If the classes we take don't bring in more money, then they weren't worth the expense. What's ironic is that on the other hand, we've lost our ability to become better — to think more clearly, to creatively problem solve, to develop our talents. First of all, we have to figure those things out entirely on our own, or we go do things like therapy. And therapy is really expensive — often more expensive than even going back to school, because it adds up every single month. A hundred fifty, a hundred seventy-five dollars is a very typical price to pay. So you're spending five, six hundred dollars a month just to go talk to someone. And sometimes that's helpful and sometimes that's needed. But sometimes what you really actually need is to know how to think in principles, and how to creatively solve your own problems, and how to become the expert in your own life. And that education has been ripped away from us. It's not available anymore. And so it's not surprising that we are losing the education that gave us the foundation to be more principled, at the same time that we have a societal stranglehold on sex roles so stilted that women feel stuck at home — and then we decide that the answer is to just send them into the workforce and leave home and family behind. And none of those things are the right answer. I gave this woman some ideas and some suggestions. I told her to watch the training with her husband and to help him understand why living according to principles and thinking in new ways was going to be so important for their whole family — and why it was going to lift and really enrich their relationship as a couple. Her husband really didn't see how the whole family was going to be incredibly enriched and lifted through the program, through what we do at the Mission-Driven Mom. But ultimately, she's in the same boat I was in. They're asking the same questions. They're saying the same things I was saying: if I'm going to spend money, shouldn't it be so that I can make money for the family? But actually, what's more important for the family is the character of the people in that family. What's more important is their virtue. And what's most important is their ability to problem-solve with truth — to have the ability to discern truth wherever they see it, and to have the truth make them free. I mean, I don't really care if my children are really well off. Certainly I want them to have skills to be self-reliant financially. But it doesn't take a ton of advanced education and skill sets to be comfortable. What I definitely want is for them to be fulfilled. I want them to do work that's meaningful to them. And that means some good self-discovery and self-knowledge. That means developing their talents and gifts. And that means doing things in society that are meaningful for them and for other people — lifting the people around them, serving them with their gifts. And our education just doesn't give us the tools and the skills to be able to do that anymore. And so of course, her husband has a paradigm that they should only spend money on her if she's going to bring money back into the family. But that's not the fundamental problem that's going on for these women. For most of us, the fundamental problem is: we're not sure what gifts and talents need developing. Sometimes we don't even know who we really are. Our relationship with ourselves is really pretty messed up. We don't understand our real needs. We're not really meeting those needs. We don't know how to lead ourselves better so that we can better lead our families. And certainly, for most of us, we don't know how to recognize a true principle and harness its power to solve significant problems in our lives. And so this question — how can I be all I could be, make a difference, and be a great mom — it's still on the table. It still lives out there. We're still grappling with it. What Happens When the Mother Is Properly Educated And what we need to realize is that when the mother is properly educated to recognize truth, everything transforms. Then there's this clear target. If she is going to go out and earn some money, well, that's going to streamline that whole process. She's going to know herself so much better. She's going to have clarity about where she should head. She could also do service work in the community that would be so much more meaningful — and bring her children with her — and it would enrich their relationships and bring so much joy and fulfillment. She'll also know how to creatively problem-solve. She'll also lift the quality of all the relationships throughout the whole family. Her children will watch her leadership skills and her example and want to follow and be like her. The decision-making will be so much clearer, and it's never anymore about who's right and who's wrong — it's let's find the truth. All the relationships will be lifted. One of the things that was so amazing to me as I was going back through some of these testimonials — I mentioned this last time — was how much relationships were improved when thinking skills were improved. And it's a multiplier effect. When one mom is transformed, it influences the whole family. And then that family influences the neighborhood and the community, and enough of those communities influence our whole culture. And what you really need to know is that you have so much more power than you think you have. I know sometimes we feel so stuck and we're just not sure how to move forward. But when you know how to harness that power — and here's what a lot of it boils down to — the feminist movement had some right ideas. They were asking some good questions. The problem was the way that they moved forward was from a victim-and-drama perspective. What they did was they said: the enemy is out there. It's the culture, it's the patriarchy, it's the men. When we fix all the stuff out there, we'll feel happy and fulfilled. And actually, statistically, the self-declared personal happiness and life fulfillment of women has declined ever since the sixties, seventies, and eighties. It's been on the decline. And actually for men it's stabilized or gone up a little bit. So it didn't work, in the sense that women as a whole are not happier than they were. And that's because even though there may have been some things culturally — in marriages, in the way the sexes interacted — that could use upleveling and improving and becoming more principled and true, the problem had to start from within. The women had to tap into their own personal power. They had to work on themselves first. Because you can't go change the world until you change yourself, and you really can't expect to lead well in your home until you lead yourself well. And that requires certain skills, certain principles, certain tools and levels of understanding. Had those women in the feminist movement started with themselves — looked inside themselves and identified the ways that they were in self-deception or acting like victims, if they had started asking more empowering questions and telling themselves the truth and being creators in their lives — if they would have met their needs better, all of those types of things — then from a standpoint of strength and courage and confidence, they could have lovingly renegotiated relationships. They could have still stood on principle, but they would have done it from a place of love and kindness and generosity. And then everyone would have been enriched. And personally, I don't think we would have seen this massive increase in divorces like we saw through the seventies and eighties. It was incredible how many people were divorcing. And I don't think all those divorces needed to happen, because I think those women could have looked inside themselves, tapped into their personal power, become more of who they could be, and then led their families better, and then together led their community. Becoming a Mission-Driven Mom So the answer here, at the Mission-Driven Mom, to this question — how can I be all I could be, make a real difference, and still be a great mom — is first to become a Mission-Driven Mom. And I want to read to you what I wrote down about this, because it's important that you see the kind of woman that you can be. She is a woman who works on herself so she can show up differently for herself and her family. A mom who seeks truth, identifies it, and stabilizes her life with it. A mom who learns to balance her own personal growth with that of her family. A mom who becomes intentional and begins leading her family to more principle-centered, meaningful, servant-leadership-focused living. She is powerful, confident, self-accepting, and purposeful. That is who you and I can be. And when we are closer to that destination — when we are more Mission-Driven Moms — we will see the world so differently. Because when you learn to think differently, it changes the way that you behave. And then that changes everything. It especially changes the way that you respond. Because one of the testimonials in the training is from a woman named Heidi Matthews, and she talks about how she realized that most of her people problems were actually problems that she was helping to create, or that she was reacting wrongly to. And that she had so much more power. And through learning to become a Mission-Driven Mom, she actually healed her marriage. The Clapham Team Now, the second phase of all of this — and I'm going to get into more detail about this next time and tell you more of what this means in our next podcast episode — I want to share it with you now, because when women go through our academy and they graduate, they're given the opportunity to step onto what we call our Clapham Team. And that has a certain meaning and message that I'm going to share with you next time. But I want to read you what I wrote about what Clapham Team members are like: In her role as a Clapham Team member, she sees herself as a member of a vast community of moms dedicated to lifting the culture — reinstating virtue and love of country. Women who know and speak truth with courage. Women who see real problems in their communities and work together to apply principled solutions. These are noble, courageous, virtuous women who elevate the people around them and invest in each other's worthy projects and goals. They know their mission will succeed because they are part of this nationwide, worldwide Clapham Team, which seeks to emulate the work done by the early Clapham Sect that literally changed the world. They are the hope for the future. So if you're stuck in that place where you're frustrated and overwhelmed and stuck in mommy land, and you want to grow as a person and want to balance your personal growth with the needs and wants of your family — and you want to find that elusive balance — and if you could arrive there, if you could be a truly Mission-Driven Mom who can identify a principle, who can see truth in our culture, who can lead her family confidently — maybe just maybe, you could bring more of that truth and light to the people around you. In your neighborhood, in your school, in your church, wherever you associate. Because remember that motherhood is not passive. It's not small. It's not peripheral. Motherhood is actually formative and strategic and transformational. Just imagine moms who know how to think clearly, who know how to identify truth, and who know how to link arms in meaningful projects and purposes. This is what we want to help bring into the world. And I want to share more with you next time about what the Clapham Sect and Clapham Circle means and what that team means. Closing: Your Personal Growth Matters But for now, for today, I want you to remember that there is no better investment a family can make than in the education of the mother. Because everyone will rise to her level, because she sets the tone and creates the family culture. And so your personal growth matters. It matters so much. I thought that working on myself would hurt my family, and all it did was help my family to blossom. And that wasn't because I went and got a certain degree to do a certain thing and we made more money and went to Disneyland more — which is not a bad thing. It just means that the way that I think, the way that I talk to my children, the words around truth and principle that infused our home, the goals we set together, the unity that we experience, the love that we have for each other continues on to today. And that was made possible by me starting with myself. And so it is vitally important. It's just the opposite of what you might think. You should not put off your own personal growth and learning to find that balance and learning to think in a principle-centered way, because all it can do is enrich everyone in your family, bless all your relationships. And so if you are feeling like that's something that you want more of — if you're feeling a little bit stuck, or you want to find that balance, or you want to know how to link arms with other women, discover your gifts, and start to make a difference in your community — then join me for the training. We're doing an encore presentation coming up in a few weeks, and I would love to see you there. The link is in the description, so go ahead and sign up. Come to the training and you can learn more about how you can engage. I'm going to give you some practical tools and tips that you can start implementing right now to move in that direction. So join us for that training and I'll see you next time.
EP 148 What if Communication Isn't What You Think It Is?
What if communication isn’t actually about saying the right words? In this episode, Audrey Rindlisbacher reframes communication through a deeper, more powerful lens - one rooted in communion, not just conversation. Drawing on insights from C.S. Lewis and timeless principles, she explores how true communication is about unity, attention, and meaningful connection. If you’ve ever struggled in your relationships, felt misunderstood, or wondered why better “communication skills” haven’t fixed things, this episode will shift how you think - and how you show up. You’ll learn: Why communication is more than words, tone, or body language The connection between communication and communion How giving, receiving, and attention transform relationships Why high-quality relationships are the foundation of a meaningful life Practical ways to deepen connection with God, yourself, and others This is for any woman or mom who wants to build stronger relationships, grow in emotional and spiritual intelligence, and become more intentional in how she connects. If you’re ready to stop managing conversations and start transforming relationships, this episode will guide you there. Introduction: Rethinking Communication Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. And today we’re going to talk about communication. And I know that may fall a little flat. We have this kind of paradigm in our culture that everything is about communication, and if we could just communicate better, then everything would be better. And we mean something very specific by that. We usually mean the words we’re saying. Sometimes we talk about body language and how that matters, and tone of voice a little bit. But mostly we think if we just got all the right words right, and we just said all the right things, that our relationships would just be wonderful. And we go to therapy for this, and we read books, and we go to trainings. And what if communication wasn’t actually what we think it is? I came across this quote from C.S. Lewis, and it completely reframed the concept of communication for me. And I’ve thought about it differently ever since. A Deeper Insight from Experience One of the reasons I want to talk about this today is because I’ve been creating a training that we just did recently. In creating this training, I was talking about natural law and about tools to help women better understand and recognize truth. And I wanted the women who attended to have an experience with other women who had been through our program and had a great experience. As I was going back through so many of those testimonials and vetting them for this training, there was a common theme. There were a few common themes. Truth is obviously one of those. But one of the common themes was relationships. These women said over and over again how much better their relationships were. All of their relationships—with God and with themselves, which is what Level One is all about—and then their relationships with everybody else had improved. And it has to do, at least partly, with this concept of communication. Communication and Communion So this is the sentence that I read from C.S. Lewis that really tipped me off: “I have tried to assume nothing that is not professed by all baptized and communicating Christians.” I had never thought about the connection between communication, communicating, and communion. I don’t know why—it had just never occurred to me that they must have the same root word and must have something to do with each other. Because communion, of course, is when Christians go to church and take the sacrament. So this got me thinking. When Lewis says “communicating Christians,” he means people who are actively participating in their faith. So I went back and did some research. I looked at root words and older definitions. If you’ve been around here long, you know the 1828 dictionary is a resource we use often because we want to understand what words originally meant. The root of the word commune comes from Latin words meaning identity and unity. So when you put that together, the root meaning of commune is to unite identities. Isn’t that fascinating? The True Meaning of Communication When we are communicating, what we are meant to be doing is unifying our identities. We are taking two separate things and helping them understand each other better, come together more, and move toward unity. Unity of purpose. Unity of understanding. In the 1828 dictionary, definitions include: To converse To talk together Familiarity To partake in the Lord’s Supper And when you look up “communicating,” it says: To impart, to give to another To share jointly To bestow something to be held, used, or enjoyed To mutually share in something So from a Christian perspective, communion is a reciprocal exchange. God gives to you, and you give back. It is a process of giving and receiving. And that is what communication actually is. A Shift in Perspective Communication is not just words. It is: Giving Receiving Enjoying Uniting identities These are elements of communication that we almost never think about. We focus on body language, skill sets, active listening, and techniques. But we don’t ask: What is the goal? The goal is unity. The process is reciprocal giving. So when I think about being in a relationship, and I see communication as a place where I give and receive in order to unite identities, it becomes a completely different experience. Love as Attention Another aspect of communication comes from Scott Peck. He taught that the most important form the work of love takes is attention. When we think about people who truly love others, they: Give without expecting return Pay close attention Are intentional in how they give He says that true listening requires setting aside our own perspectives so we can enter into someone else’s world. This is what real communication looks like. It is not technique. It is intention. Communication Begins Within We can even do this with ourselves. One of the reasons journaling and discussion are so powerful is because they allow us to: Listen to ourselves Empathize with ourselves Unite our identity internally Many women carry false beliefs because they have not truly listened to themselves. Instead of asking: What principle can help me here? We ask: What’s wrong with me? But when we commune with ourselves and with God, and align with truth, we begin to understand ourselves better. What We Are Really Doing When We Communicate In communication: We are set up to give, not just take We are trying to unite identities We are offering love, acceptance, and attention And many moms struggle to give themselves that kind of attention. Not just comfort or distraction—but deep, meaningful attention to real needs. Why This Matters So Much Why does communication matter so much? Because relationships are everything. Research—like the Harvard study—shows that the people who live the longest and happiest lives have the highest quality relationships. And those relationships are built on our ability to truly commune. A Higher Purpose for Communication There is also a deeper reason. C.S. Lewis, in The Weight of Glory, explains that our relationships matter because every person we interact with has eternal potential. He says that the weight of our neighbor’s glory should rest on us. Meaning: We are participating in who they are becoming. Every interaction matters. Final Reflection Questions So I want to leave you with a few questions: When you communicate: Are you trying to give or to get? Are you trying to connect or to control? Do people feel seen and accepted by you? What would the world look like if we thought of communication as communion? As giving, receiving, and uniting identities? Closing Invitation This is why at The Mission Driven Mom, we focus so heavily on relationships. Because they are at the heart of our happiness or unhappiness. And they are shaped by our ability to truly communicate. I want to invite you to join me for an encore of our recent training. I’ll be giving that presentation again in April. If you want the tools we discussed, the link is in the description. In the meantime, think about communion. Unite your identity. Give your attention. And watch what happens in your relationships. I’ll see you next time.
EP 147 Why Culture Is Crumbling (and How Moms Can Fix It)
Guess what?! I've spent quite a bit of time over the last couple of months putting together the training I'll be giving this week! (I'm super excited about it by the way 😉.) And as I was editing it down to make sure it isn't too long, I had to cut out some information I really wanted you to have. Then I realized - I can just put it in this week's podcast so you still have it! I know many of you, like me, feel frustrated, overwhelmed and sometimes even scared with what's going on in our culture. And I want you to better understand WHY these things are happening. So this week I dive deep into the History of American Education and how it mirrors the moral decline in our culture. When I made these connections, it literally changed the way I see the world, and how I navigate it. I WANT that for you too! That's why this week I talk about: the surprising moment that opened my eyes to the education I had never received why reading original great thinkers changed the way I understood truth and personal growth the kind of learning that strengthens reasoning, communication, and relationships what our modern education has lost and why that matters so much now why I believe moms need these tools if we want to lift our families and our culture So if you want to... make better sense of what's going on in our crazy world know how to better lead your family in the madness stop feeling scared and gain clarity about what you can actually DO about our culture link arms with like-minded women and start turning things around... Then give this one a listen. And PASS IT ON if it resonates because we both know that understanding the problem is the first step to solving it. This week you'll gain that understanding! With love,Audrey P.S. For the rest of this story and more insights on how you use what I share in this podcast to solve your significant problems and move forward in your life, join me in the live training this Thursday night! AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom. And if you are someone who has been looking around at our culture and you feel like it’s crumbling, you see the loss of virtue and the loss of truth, you feel frustrated, overwhelmed, maybe even scared, you are not alone. There’s a reason for that. Our culture is declining, and it is scary and overwhelming and difficult to deal with. So today I want to talk to you about the education that you probably didn’t have that would help you to identify truth, and how that is the key for you and I to solve our significant problems. You’ve been listening. I’ve been talking about this training that I’m going to do that’s coming up, and building out that training, I’ve had to leave most things out. Originally, I had a story in there that I wanted to share with you, but it didn’t make it into the final cut. And so I figured in today’s podcast, I could share with you what didn’t make it into the training. And by doing that, it will better prepare you for that training. You’ll have a better idea what you can expect, and you’ll just have some background and some depth around the things that I’m going to share, a better understanding about why it matters so much. A Difficult Season of Motherhood So some of you have probably heard the story that when I was a young mom, I had three kids in six years, and things were really, really rough. My husband had this pornography issue that he told me about before we got married, but it just got worse after we got married. I was not dealing with it well, and of course my pregnancies were really, really difficult. I was in bed, throwing up, hospitalized. And then finances were rough because we were a one income family and my husband was commission based, and so I was constantly worried about money. Of course our marriage was struggling through the financial problems and the parenting problems and the pornography problems, as you can imagine. Then on top of that, we had all these extended family issues that complicated everything. In fact, around this time, both of our parents were separated. Blaine’s were divorcing. I was kind of my mom’s confidant, and it was really, really rough going. And I just got to this point where I had dedicated myself to my children for six or seven years at this point, and I felt a little brain dead. I felt like I was getting lost in it all. I was starting to feel more and more depression, less and less motivation to do the things that I knew I needed to do to take better care of myself, and I felt like I just needed and wanted something for myself. I didn’t have any idea what that was. Discovering a New Kind of Education In fact, I spent like a year looking for something that was for me, that was not going to take over my life. I didn’t want to go have a career, especially at this point when my children were young, but I needed something. So about this time, I was talking to my sister in law about all these issues. She turned me onto this little college, which unfortunately has since gone defunct. And she said something like, well, you can help build your own curriculum or whatever. And I was like, what are you talking about? That’s weird. So when I went to her house, she opened up the computer and she showed me their website. And that moment is just seared on my brain, in her family room, looking at her computer that was sitting on the little desk in the family room. And the number one thing that struck me so hard was this school listed their curriculum on their website, and it said that they read Plato. And I didn’t even know what to think. I remember like yelling, like bursting out, they read Plato? What in the world? And then I realized that I had never read Plato. And then I realized that I had never thought about the fact that I had never read Plato. And then I thought, how did I make it through fifteen years of formal education? If we had his writing still, why wasn’t that part of the curriculum? Well, duh. He’s like one of the smartest people that’s ever lived. You would think that if you wanted to give people a decent education, you would have them read from the smartest people that ever lived, right? So I was just dumbfounded and so intrigued, so interested. Reading the Great Thinkers And it took me quite a while to decide to sign up. And I’ll talk to you more in the training about why I ended up signing up and what it has to do with you and your family and your family legacy. But I did end up signing up and taking classes. And I want to talk to you about something I’ve really never talked about in this much detail before for the next few minutes because I think it’s really important for me to give you context and a framework around what was happening at this school. So first of all, we read stuff like Plato. Okay. We read Aristotle. We read, I don’t know, all the people, Plutarch and Archimedes and Marcus Aurelius and Cicero, some whose names I’d heard, some who I hadn’t. I had to become acquainted with people like Hobbes or the Scottish Enlightenment or the Age of Reason thinkers or whatever. Even people in the Renaissance, I only knew the artists at this point. So we’re reading from the people who had the ideas first or who fleshed them out in ways that were super impactful for the culture. So that’s radically different. No textbooks. Sometimes there’s a compilation of readings, like short selections from individuals. Sometimes there’s a really, really reputable, well researched, and original writings author to give us a summary of something, and then we would have selections of original writings to go along with that, like for example in American history. But the focus was to go to the source, to be at the original writing itself. And it was so hard, so incredible. It just made all the difference in the world to read from that person their original idea instead of reading all these other people who were going to tell me what that person thought of whatever. And that’s what a lot of our textbooks are like today, right? They are four, five, six layers away from the original writing. They read the commentary of someone’s commentary of someone’s commentary instead of just going to the source. Learning Through the Source Now, when I tried to read these, I didn’t always get it the first time or the second time or even the third time through, and I didn’t always have time to read them a lot of times through. But I would get a little, and that little bit would open up my mind. It would increase my confidence. It would make new neurons fire in my brain and help me to see things in brand new ways that I never saw them before. So I signed up and I’m just doing first this distance course, and it’s just the readings, and I’m having a phenomenal time. In fact, it took me a year and a half to do my first distance course because I didn’t have structure, I didn’t have deadlines, I didn’t have mentoring, I didn’t have other students, I didn’t have anything. I just kind of had a list of readings mostly. And eventually I ended up hiring a mentor to help me finish the course because it was like I was so stuck in The Federalist Papers. I just could not figure it out. Well, eventually there were distance courses, and I was able to go to a real classroom with students, with a mentor. And I didn’t know until that point the other aspects of what this education was like. The Power of Socratic Discussion And I’m going to talk to you in just a minute about its history and its rich context and why it matters so much. So we get into these classrooms, and instead of having a teacher, we have what they keep calling a mentor. The mentor is way ahead of us, but they’re also like a student with us. And instead of having rows of chairs facing this teacher and having all these lectures happening every time and we’re just sitting there absorbing information from the guru of gurus like you would do in college, often we were in a circle. If we were online, we were all just equal squares right on the screen, and we were all talking to each other. It was Socratic discussion, which I didn’t know what that was, and I didn’t know it came from Socrates, and I didn’t know Plato taught us about it. I didn’t know it meant learning through asking and answering deep, meaningful questions. And the mentor led because the mentor is way ahead and they are sculpting it. They are using the thoughts and ideas of this really rich reading and the people that come with all of their background and their personal experience, and they’re using all of that to sculpt this beautiful environment where we all learn from each other. And they’re using incredible questions, and they’re using other resources that they’ve read, and they’re using their experience, and they’re using their well honed reasoning skills. And that’s one of the goals that they’re trying to help us with, is just to think better. Just to actually stop, slow down, think things through, ponder them, sit on them for a while, and really have them percolate in our minds and in our hearts so that they become part of us. Becoming a Better Thinker And it was crazy in these discussions because the mentor would ask me what I thought, and that had never happened before. And then Jacques Barzun teaches, he’s one of many incredible people that teach how to run great discussions, he says that great mentors will push their students back up against the wall of the great absolutes. And so that’s what the mentor is doing, is inviting conversation, helping us to be vulnerable, helping us to engage in a quality conversation with each other, but then pushing back against our assumptions and against the answers that you just give off the cuff or the things you’ve been taught to think by your culture. And they make you question your assumptions and conclusions that you’ve drawn and beliefs that you have and ways of being that you’ve adopted because you might not be in line with good logic. You might be living out beliefs that aren’t helpful to you and you might be totally out of line with truth. And so I came to understand over time, as I eventually wrote courses for this school, and I’ll talk about that in just a second, and I was taught to mentor, and I got lots and lots of practice there, and then of course for the last twenty years I’ve gone on to practice that lots and lots of places. And what I learned is that this Socratic discussion is so valuable because it teaches you to listen way better to other people, to be far more empathic to their thoughts and ideas because you’re letting them talk through what’s going on with them. It really helps you to hone your reasoning skills and to have to think through things. Your communication skills are really leveled up. Your diplomacy, you have to back off and be more careful about what you say and how you say it because there’s lots of different people in the room. But you also have to increase your courage and ability to say what you really believe, but to be empathic and charitable and kind in the way that you do it. And what I started to see eventually over the years was these tools that I gained in these Socratic discussions were developing and honing my relationship skills. I was just better at relationships in general because I had learned how to ask better questions, how to listen more intently, how to push back kindly with questions, how to state what I believed, how to reason and think things through. It was really, really phenomenal. Confidence, Character, and Virtue But also we gained confidence in our ability to think things through, to stand on the few truths that we did come to, to know what we believed and why we believed it and have thought through it clearly, and why that mattered and how we could live that out. And I also came to see that this whole process, as I eventually got a master’s degree and studied the history of education and all the way back to the history of Western civilization from the beginning, the development of character and virtue has always been the primary goal of education. Great philosophers have always said what makes us different from all the other creatures on earth is our ability to use our conscience, the fact that we’re conscious, and our common sense and our reason to elevate ourselves above our primal instincts and to discipline ourselves to live in line with what is good and what is true and what is beautiful. To be on the hunt for those things and to align our lives with those things. That’s always been the primary goal of education, not income earning. That was trade work. And you could go be trained and you could apprentice and all these things to be able to earn a living. But education was not about earning a living. It was about the development of the human being to be supremely human. And the supremely human person is the most virtuous person. You can see this thread all through the great thinkers and leaders throughout history, and I was seeing that and learning that. It was incredible. Commonplace Books and Journaling We also learned from writings by, for example, John Adams to his son John Quincy, and Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and these other great founders, and even before, with Marcus Aurelius and others, that you also need to write, and you need to write for yourself. You need to copy down what the greats have said. You need to pick it apart. You need to think it through. And they used to call these commonplace books, and it would have extensive notes from the things that they were learning and then their thoughts about those things. And so we were encouraged to journal, to keep commonplace books, to even write in our books, which I came to do. And I gained a lot of skills for tracking a lot of things in my book and really good bookmarking skills that have been a huge help for me. Now I can go back to the questions that I’ve asked and the quotes that were my favorite and the arguments that I’ve had with authors as I’ve read, and I can go back to those things and review the books that I’ve read and rediscuss them. And it’s been a huge help in my mothering and just in general with being a mentor and all of that. And so journaling as a way, because our thoughts run so fast that when we journal, we have to slow down and we have to take all of these fragmented ideas and make cohesive sentences and paragraphs out of them, and that fine tunes our thinking. It helps us to be better, clearer thinkers, again honing our logical thinking skills, our reasoning skills. Also connecting where our emotions are being sculpted, they’re being created by the things that we’re thinking. Our emotions are then in turn affecting our thoughts, and the interplay of thoughts and emotions and which ones are true and which ones are false, all of that is so, so helpful. Writing, Feedback, and Growth We also wrote papers. We would have writing seminars, I guess you’d call it, because what was happening in this school was that it wasn’t a teacher student dynamic. I wasn’t just sitting there absorbing information and regurgitating it to a professor and saying the things that I thought they wanted to hear and that would please them or that would get me a high grade. I really was there to become the best me. I was there for me. And by virtue of the fact that I became a better me, I was a better wife, I was a better friend, I was a better sister, I was a better mom, right? Because I’m becoming a better me. The structure, these educational principles that were being utilized in this school were so incredibly beautiful and helpful for my personal development. That’s why this was the educational model in the West for two thousand years. Up until about a hundred years ago, we lost it. It’s because it’s the development of the human being to help us be fully human and to help us be virtuous. And so I’m there with a team of students. We are learning together. And the mentor is on this journey with us. They’re guiding us. They’re helping us. They’re showing us the path forward. They’re helping us course correct and stay on the path, but they’re learning right alongside us. One of the first things I learned as a mentor was that when I got into a group of individuals who were ready to learn, were ready to grow, because that’s really what this is. It’s all about personal growth. Because so what if you read it? So what if you pass a test on it if it doesn’t become part of your character and if you don’t become a better person because of it? It’s not helpful. The only reason those things are helpful is if we’re trying to build a career, and this education was not about that. Ironically, the more virtuous you became and the more your character was developed, the better you would be as an owner or an employee. That was secondary. The development of you was the primary focus. The Value of Revision and Oral Exams And so we’re a team now. We’re discussing every week. We’re diving deep into these readings. We are learning from the best of the best, and it’s elevating us in every way. And then we have these writing seminars. And because we’re a team of learners, we also give feedback on each other’s writing. Those seminars could be painful. We had to read part of our writing aloud to the entire class, and they all gave feedback. They all told me what they thought about my paper, and it often meant kind of picking it apart. I remember one, I can’t remember what it was even about, but it was kind of like to my sister who was giving me grief about stuff, indirectly. And after I read the first page, the room was really quiet, and then one of the other students said, Audrey, I feel like you’re yelling at me. And it was really important feedback. I remember another discussion where my husband was in a class with me and he started going off about a bunch of stuff about, I think it was about Alexander Hamilton or maybe it was John Adams, and the mentor just was like, what are you talking about? Finally she was like, you better go home and get your facts straight because you don’t know what you’re talking about. And so again, course correcting, helping us to develop our character, to become better thinkers. And these writing seminars were difficult but so enlightening and really helped us to become better at expressing our ideas, which so much of life, so much of happiness, so much of relationships is about. Good communication, being empathic listeners, being good at diplomacy and sharing our thoughts and ideas. Then what was really cool is that we would have different assignments and we would hand things in and we would get feedback, right, but not a grade. Because instead of it being like, well, you tried for a minute and you had a deadline and now this label lives on as a mark for or against you, it was like, no. Do it until it’s great. So our assignments, we would redo and redo and redo until they were quality. And you can just imagine how much you would learn having to do things that way. At the end of the class, we would have oral exams. And in today’s culture, I’m always like, why in the world aren’t we doing more oral exams? We’ve got this AI issue. We’ve got all the cheating in our schools. You can’t cheat on an oral exam. You know it or you don’t. And I know it takes a little more time, but it’s so worth it. And our oral exams were usually administered in front of the entire class. And so there would be a couple mentors, and sometimes we would test each other. And so we would bring quality questions from the semester’s long learning or the course learning or whatever it was, and we would question each other, and we would learn so much in those oral exams from each other and from ourselves as we had to express what this had meant to us and how we had grown from what we had learned. How This Education Changed My Life So this classroom became a real place of incredible growth and personal development, and I forged relationships that have become lifelong because we were so changed by the experience that we were having. These beautiful educational principles had a profound impact on me and on my life. They have completely changed the trajectory of everything that I’ve done since. It has changed the way I manage my relationship with myself, my relationship with God, and all my other relationships. It helped me gain a lot of self discovery that sent me on a new trajectory and introduced me to things that have become my life’s work, that have been so transformational for me. The Euclid Class I wanted to give you a quick example of one of the things that happened to me in this process, and then I’ll talk to you a little bit before we finish up about why this matters so much for you and I and for our culture. So somewhere around this time, a couple years in, I was given the opportunity to take a Euclid class. Now if you don’t know who Euclid is, he was the great geometer. So his work was written, I didn’t look it up, I don’t know, two or three hundred AD, something like that. He wrote the definitive book on geometry. When I heard we were going to take this geometry class, I thought back on my high school years. So when I was in middle school, I was given a test and I scored well, and that meant that I had to take Algebra One in eighth grade. So I took Algebra One in eighth grade. I did fine. And it also meant that I had to take honors geometry my freshman year of high school, and I totally bombed. And of course, even though they’re both math, geometry and algebra are very different. And obviously I think a little more algebraically than I do geometry wise. And so, I mean, I was on the cheerleading squad, and I did so poorly in my class I couldn’t cheer. It was very disheartening. It was very embarrassing. It was a big deal at the time. And so I was demoted. I had to go back to regular geometry. I had to wait a whole cycle to get my grades back up to cheer again. It was really terrible. And I did okay in the regular geometry class. And so as you can imagine, all my life and into adulthood, far into adulthood, I carried this mindset of, I’m terrible at math. I don’t ever want to do that again. I did manage to get my way through Algebra Two, but then I just didn’t take math again if I didn’t have to. So I called up this teacher of this Euclid class and I was like, it sounds intriguing. I know that I love these original writings, but let me tell you my story and my history, and I don’t think I can do it. And he was like, no, no, no, no. I promise you, we will stay with you until you get it. And you’ll learn proof by proof how to think more logically and why this has been a staple in Western education. And in fact, I later learned that pretty much all the greats did study Euclid. It did help them to think more logically and to understand how evidence is built on evidence and how proofs work. But especially Abraham Lincoln, it was a core element of his education to study Euclid. And of course I did it. I got through Book One. I have somewhere in this house, in a box somewhere, my notebook from Euclid where I worked out the proofs. And it was hard, and I did the work, and my confidence was so high when I was done. When I got my first proof, it was a huge moment for me, and I realized I can do this. I can think more logically. I can figure these things out. The History of Liberal Education I went on to get a master’s degree and to study the history of Western education especially, and read the great writings from these individuals that talked about what education should be and should look like. Like I said, it was clear that character development, what is it for, is its purpose. And in terms of American education, of course the Bible was at the heart. It was the core book that every child went through school with, and there’s some other fundamental reasons for that, which I’m actually going to talk about at the training that we do. And they were to be guided by the truths and the principles that were in the Bible in all their lives. Because up until the turn of the twentieth century, the goal of education was still the development of character and virtue. And all through the eighteen hundreds, all the major universities in America had the same curriculum. In fact, I’ve got a book over here that actually outlines what the curriculum list for all four years for I think it’s got Harvard and Yale and a couple others on there, and it’s virtually the same. And there was this common canon. Up until nineteen hundred, Americans had all these shared ideas. They had all read the Bible. They had all studied Shakespeare. They had all read some of these core classics. Men that went on, it was predominantly men, some women, but predominantly men, that went on to these high universities and into leadership positions had the same ideas about governmental principles and economic principles, and it was kind of the glue that held the country together. But then at Harvard, Charles Eliot became the president, and he decided that the students weren’t satisfied with their education and he wanted to improve it and make them happy, and so he instituted an elective system that was in full swing by 1899. The other universities, especially the Ivy League, pushed back against him hardcore, and they told him not to do it, and he just did it anyway. So once that was in play, then eventually the other colleges went along, and so we lost this liberal education, and with it we lost the tradition and what was at the heart of it. And that was that our education is about our personal development, and only very secondarily is it about anything else. From Personal Development to Socialization As socialization. And of course, having been homeschooled on and off, I can tell you how many people came to me and were like, well, what are you going to do about their socialization? Because thanks to Dewey and others in the forties, socialization came to be synonymous with modern education, that children need to be socialized. And that was just never the goal. So he puts this elective system into place. The other colleges adopt it. Pretty soon you don’t have the core canon of readings. They’re not in these original works anymore. We lose it, lose it, lose it. And so by the thirties and forties at the University of Chicago, you’ve got Robert Hutchins who becomes this young university president. He brings over Mortimer Adler. They realize, and Robert Hutchins, I took a lot of quotes from him, Mortimer Adler, Mark Van Doren, and there were other people in other places, in other countries as well, that were mourning the loss of the liberal education. And that’s what it was called. The education I was receiving at this college, which unfortunately did not last many years, was traditionally called liberal arts education or classical education or the classical liberal arts. It was the education to be free. It is the root word of liberty, library, of libro in Spanish, which means book. And so when I tell people I have a liberal education or liberal arts degree, they really do think it has something to do with the arts because we’re so far from that. In fact, the great economist, in his book, he talks about how in the preface to his book, he’s like, I don’t understand why Americans let the word liberal be hijacked by people on the left because that’s a very rich word and it’s about their heritage. Now they have this political party called liberal, and it kind of in some circles has a bad connotation. And liberal does not mean free for all, everybody gets free stuff. It means freedom through discipline, through reasoning. Mortimer Adler said that we free our minds by disciplining them. And that’s really what goes on when you get this kind of education. The Loss of Truth Seeking And so anyway, lots of individuals in different countries were mourning the loss of this liberal education, especially in America. And The Road to Serfdom, that’s what it is, that’s the book of the economist whose name I can’t remember right now. And part of that road to serfdom is the loss of this liberal education. In fact, I’ve got a couple quotes. Robert Hutchins said this, and this is all happening in the forties, and we’ll talk a little bit more about this in the training, but this is all the rich context and backstory that I just don’t have time to get into in an hour and a half with you in the training. Robert Hutchins said, we have come to the point where the pursuit of truth for its own sake is actually regarded as dangerous. This has to do with, eventually we went into modernism and postmodernism and our postmodern age where we’re being told that it’s your truth, my truth, and there isn’t any absolute truth. And of course there is, which we’re going to talk about at the training as well. Mark Van Doren said, a university can and should study first principles. It can concern itself with the permanent truth about man as man. And Robert Hutchins said about, well, just to give you a little background, around this time Dewey is changing the educational system. All of these things are coming into play. It’s turning into a socialization experiment, and Robert Hutchins and Mortimer Adler and these other people are pushing back, pushing back, pushing back. And Robert Hutchins eventually said, my mistake was that I thought I was a successful evangelist for the liberal arts education, when actually I was a stopper in the bathtub. And so liberal arts lost, socialization won, and we have the modern education that we have. And most of us that are alive today just don’t know the difference because it’s been a hundred years now, a hundred and twenty five years since this liberal education was squeezed out. Why This Matters for Us Now I could tell you a lot more stories and give you a lot more examples, but I think you get the gist. And so the reason, if you’ve ever heard of the Great Books of the Western World or heard of the Harvard Classics, the reason that we have those collections of classics is because they were born out of this loss of the liberal arts because they weren’t in the schools anymore. This was Charles Eliot saying, okay, well we have the elective system now, and we kind of squeezed out a lot of the classics, but what we’ll do is we’ll put them in a set, we’ll call it the Harvard Classics, we’ll create this book set. And so it was in libraries, it was sold. Hutchins and Adler and others put together the Great Books of the Western World, which was printed by Encyclopedia Britannica and peddled door to door in the fifties and the sixties. They started up Great Books classes because they were just trying to do everything they could to hang on to this education. Now the reason all of this matters, I’m sure you’ve drawn some of your own conclusions about why I am talking about this in depth and why these rich educational principles matter so much, it’s because you and I were robbed of the education that would have taught us better to think logically, to reason, to identify the good, the true, and the beautiful. And our culture would be more grounded on what’s true and good and beautiful. What This School Still Missed But there’s two things that this school didn’t do well. I have a very superficial understanding of what goes on at most of the liberal arts colleges, the only place you can get this education anymore really. University of Dallas has a pretty good program there. There are a dozen, two dozen of these liberal arts colleges scattered around the country, and they do use these educational principles to a large degree still. They are steeped in classics. They have added more modern science and things like that, which is relevant, which is fine. They’re insanely expensive. There are a few that are a little more affordable, but Hillsdale is one of the cheapest. It’s around thirty five thousand a year tuition. It’s the cheapest I’ve been able to find. It’s the one I’m most acquainted with. I’ve visited there on a couple occasions and met the president and toured the classes and attended classes there and done some of their online classes. And so I know the most about them. They’re one of the best. They go all the way up to eighty, ninety, a hundred thousand a year just for tuition, not for living as well. So this is still available in a few places. It’s insanely expensive. I think that these schools do one of the aspects my little college didn’t do well, but I have not seen them do the other. The Missing Scholar Skills And so as we wind down here, let me just give you a little more context and a better understanding of some of the things we’re going to talk about in the training. The first thing that my college didn’t do great, and I don’t know how well these modern universities do it, is when I was about a year into my studies, I went to a little conference. I mean it was tiny because he was visiting little college, and the president of the college was there talking. And he was an amazing guy. He kept calling them scholar skills or study skills, and he kept saying, you’re only going to be able to get this incredible education if you have the scholar skills. And although they had really great Socratic discussion, really great writing seminar, and they told us to keep a commonplace journal, I wasn’t sure what he was talking about. And so I raised my hand and I was like, where are these wonderful scholar skills? How can I get them? I’m ready to go. I want to be the best student I can be. And all he said was, what are you currently studying? I told him I was studying worldviews. And he said, okay, well just keep going. In other words, they had not made a plan for it. They didn’t know. They hadn’t ever put them in one place. Maybe some of them had some of the skills. So the first kind of entry point for me in learning how to even administer this type of education, and even more in depth, how to get it for myself and really get robust lifelong learning skills, was that I was like, okay, well I’m going to have to figure it out. So I went and studied several books and did a bunch of practice over time to gain good study skills. Like I was talking about, the bookmarking skills, the question asking skills, getting better at leading discussion, and also just how to do interdisciplinary connections and all of that kind of stuff. And in the end, I figured out a lot of things that were super helpful. I ended up building a course for this college, and then I was able to travel and teach this course to a lot of their students around the country. It was really fun. It was really rewarding to teach people how to learn. And luckily I’ve been able to carry that into my programs and offerings. And so these educational principles that I was taught at this school, plus other things that I’ve learned in addition, have made their way in there to really give our students the best experience possible. The Missing Natural Law Framework The other thing that they didn’t do well, well, maybe two things. One other thing that they didn’t do well was sometimes it was just too much. I’m all for let’s read some Plato, but you cannot give adults the same education that you give college students. They don’t have the time. And so what they could have done better is what I’ve tried to do in my programs, and that is highly vet great content so that just reading one small section of a page or two of Plato, accompanied by a little bit of Seven Habits, layered with a really great youth novel or whatever the case might be, so that you can see continuity of the ideas and you can see them in multiple places, then you go dig into scripture and you make these interdisciplinary connections, and it helps you to better identify truth. Which leads into the other thing that they didn’t do well, and that was that even though we talked a lot about truth and being truth seekers, I was introduced to the natural law framework through, and I’ve said this before, the first thing I read was that John Locke reading. And that was the first time I ever, ever heard the term. Then I was turned onto a couple other authors that talked about the natural law. But really that framework was never delineated. It was never talked about. I was never taught what the natural law really is, how it really works, what first principles are, what principles are, what applications are, how they all fit together, how to find them. And I never could find a mentor that could walk me through all of that. And even though it’s all throughout the great books and many, many different people talk about it in different ways, I was really left on my own for many years to niche in on that natural law framework, to build out my own strategies and frameworks and checklists and practices and tools for uncovering all the layers of it and figuring out how to figure it out and how to have it change my life and the lives of the people that I taught it to. And so Hillsdale doesn’t do it that way. And I don’t know if any of these other liberal arts colleges do that. And so that was really kind of unfortunate, but it became my life’s work. It became the thing that I’ve been passionate about for twenty years. And the more I learned about it, the better person I became, the more beautiful the world is, the more I love God, and the more I’m able to help others to identify and live according to truth. We Were Robbed of These Tools So the tragedy in all of this, of course, is that you and I were robbed of a beautiful educational experience that would have helped us to be more logical in our thinking, better communicators, better at our relationships. It would have helped us to understand truth better and to be more virtuous. We also don’t have a place where we can go and learn about what truth really is and the framework of the natural law and why that matters so much. What I found in my little college was that the natural law, they didn’t understand, I think maybe, just how vital that was. That natural law framework made its way into our Constitution. It was prevalent in the colleges prior to the nineteen hundreds. And so, and the natural law is talked about in our founding documents, so we know that it was talked about. We know that it was the lens through which people saw the world in the West up until a hundred years ago, and we know that it was understood and these men were trying to understand first principles and trying to live according to principles. These men and women were trying to build solid foundations in their lives and in our nation with the natural law framework, and using these great works and these educational principles to elevate themselves. And so it’s just a tragedy that you and I find ourselves in a world, in a culture, without these irreplaceable tools. The inability to really understand what truth is, to identify first principles and principles for ourselves, and know how to live them, to know how to be self educating and how to sculpt and develop our reason and communication skills, we are at a huge disadvantage. We have been robbed of those things, and it is so vital that we restore them. Why Moms Matter Most And this is why the answer in our culture is not, like I said at the beginning, leaders matter. It’s not that leadership doesn’t matter. It matters. But the better we understand truth and principles, the better we can choose the leaders that will also choose that for us. But the real answer is for moms to lift themselves, which will lift their family, and they will lift the culture if we own it for ourselves. If we get serious about learning how to place our lives and our families on a solid foundation of true principles, everything else will be better, and our culture will have a shift because we are raising the next generation. So if we raise them with better principles, our world will be a better place. And this is exactly what I’m passionate about restoring. This is exactly what I care the very most about. Everything that I have done and everything that I do and everything that I will do is about lifting you so you can lift your family, and so we can all together lift our culture. Closing Invitation And we’re going to go into all of these ideas in more depth in this training, and I’m going to give you some frameworks and tools that are going to really help you to engage and let the truth make you free, which is what we all want. To know how to develop individually, to find balance between our own needs and those of our families, to solve our significant problems, to begin to reach our potential, to become all that we can become while still building the most principled, beautiful family culture we can possibly build. We’re going to talk about that at the training. The link is in the description, and I’ll see you there.
EP 146 The Story Behind Mission Driven Mom (And Where We’re Going Next)
How to Stop Feeling Powerless & Become the Expert in Your Own Life Join Audrey’s free training to learn how to build a more principled home and become more intentional in your leadership as a mother. Register here 👉 https://go.themissiondrivenmom.com/webinar-registration The Story Behind the Mission Driven Mom (And where we're going next) In this episode, Audrey Rindlisbacher shares the story behind The Mission Driven Mom and the journey that brought it to where it is today. What started as a small class for mothers eventually grew into a movement focused on helping women lead their homes with truth, principles, and purpose. But the path was not simple. Audrey opens up about the early success of the program, the challenges that nearly shut it down, and the difficult decisions that led to rebuilding it in a stronger and more intentional way. She also shares the vision guiding the future of Mission Driven Mom and why she believes mothers have a powerful role to play in strengthening families and rebuilding culture. In this episode you will hear: how the Mission Driven Mom program originally started the struggles and lessons that reshaped the organization why the program paused and later relaunched the long term vision for Mission Driven Mom why empowering mothers is key to strengthening families and communities If you want to understand the mission behind this work and where it is headed next, this episode gives you a deeper look behind the scenes. AI Generated Transcript Introduction and Why Things Are Changing Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, the author of The Mission Driven Life and the founder of The Mission Driven Mom. I’m super excited for you to be here with me today, and it’s going to look a little bit different because I want to share something with you that’s been going on behind the scenes with The Mission Driven Mom. I want to kind of pull back the curtain and show you a little bit of the backstory because we’ve made some new commitments. We decided to really up our game in 2026. You’ve probably noticed that on the podcast, on socials, in our emails, and this is all part of this new effort that we’re making. We have this new vision for the coming months and the coming years, and why all of that is important to me and to our team, but also very important to you and important to your families and communities and our culture. And so I’m going to tell you all of how we got to where we are and where we go from here. How Mission Driven Mom Began Now, some of you have been with us for years now. Maybe you’ve been here almost from the beginning. And when we launched, I have got to say it was really just kind of a glorified hobby for me. I’ve told the story many places of going to a moms’ class and recognizing the pain in the women around me and understanding for the first time that other women needed the tools that I had discovered that had really revolutionized my home and my life and made such a huge difference for me. And so I determined to make that available, and I didn’t have any idea how it was going to go. I had taught classes in the past, and I just came up with a price that was quite a bit more than I had charged before and seemed fair, but just was an arbitrary price, and threw it out into the world, and it stuck. And to be honest, and I say this very humbly, it really was far more successful than I ever anticipated it being. And it went a lot further than I expected it was going to go. And of course, we launched it. Level One took off, and I knew we needed to have an event. I really wanted to celebrate the women and have them walk across the stage and have a deadline and a solid goal for when they were going to be finished. But I also wanted us to get together and see each other in person. And so we held our first celebration, and it was just a huge success. We filled the room. It was so much fun and so full of joy and had this graduation ceremony, and some of our students spoke, and it was so rewarding and enriching. And then from there it took off. Growth, Expansion, and Inexperience The women that had finished needed a Level Two, and they needed a Level Three because I had a conception of how this whole thing would look, but I hadn’t built anything but Level One when we started. And then the moms wanted their teens to have this experience. They have also asked for a program for their husbands, which we’ve never developed yet. And as time went on, we were building content like crazy, and we were trying to continue to service the students and build content at the same time for the events. And then we had women coming up, and so I built Level Three, and then they were able to graduate, and we launched a leadership team. And Level Three actually wasn’t all the way finished. It was just a pilot. And around that time, it got past my pain point. And I think maybe I’ve said this before, but I did not go into this with any business experience. I did not anticipate it ever getting this big. And we had too many people. We were running through too much money, and we were charging way too little. And that was just because of inexperience. And it was because I hadn’t done my market research, and I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And I needed to learn from my own experience really how to do it differently. Pulling Back and Rebuilding And so we brought everything down to a really small group and then eventually let everyone go. And we went quiet for a while. And there was a time where I just thought, I’m going to move this program over to another platform so I can keep my promise and make sure that women have it for life, and I’m going to write the books that I feel like I need to write. Maybe I’ll finish and make Level Three formal. Maybe I won’t. I don’t know. And a year and a half of time went by. I wasn’t podcasting. I really wasn’t doing anything. I was just fine tuning the program, moving it onto a new platform, making sure that everything was all cleaned up, and just trying to get rid of any unnecessary expenses. I had done a lot of studying business in the meantime and I had learned a lot, but I just didn’t know if I wanted to go there again. It ended in a pretty painful way. I felt badly about how much of our own personal reserves, and not just the time, but lots of money, had gone into the business trying to keep it alive. We’d lost a lot of money, and I just wasn’t sure what to do with it. It just sat in the back of my mind. Why We Came Back And really, it’s pretty much my husband who is the reason why we’re back here where we are. I don’t know if I would have had the courage, the gumption, the support that I needed to try it again if he hadn’t come to me last year and just said, we have to champion this. It blesses people’s lives. It’s got to be done. And I said, I’m not going to talk about it unless we put the business principles in place that we learned last time, we quickly learn as many more as we possibly can, and really build this business on principle. And we do our market research so that we know really how to run it properly, how to price it properly, how to market it properly, all the pieces. And we didn’t have all the answers, and I don’t need to have all the answers, but we definitely decided we were going to go for it. And that’s largely thanks to my husband. The Turning Point We did that. We had some reserves because the teen program kept selling, and every once in a while women would come and buy the moms program. And we have schools that do the teen program and whatnot. And we were going along. We had one employee. We had Anne working with us. She’s incredible, and she was organizing everything in the background and just helping us with things. And then we bought a program, and one thing led to another. We invited some people back. That miraculously happened. And we got to this point in the fall where we needed to invest again. We had run through the revenue that had been sitting there for the last couple years, and we needed to put money in again. And I didn’t realize that when I came back, I’d drawn a line in the sand. And when we got to that moment, I realized, oh, I’ve drawn a line in the sand. I do not want to take those kind of risks again. I don’t want to feel guilty about that again. My husband was like, what’s going on? I thought we were all in. I thought we were just doing this. And I was like, yeah, but And he’s like, but what? And I was like, I don’t know. And so I had to really go deep inside. Three Weeks of Prayer, Reflection, and Clarity I set everything aside, and for three weeks I did almost nothing else besides pray, ponder, research, study, think, and journal. And the overriding question was, why? Why would I do this again? I can see the benefit that it is to women, but can’t I just throw it into a platform and charge a little bit of money and just let women buy it that want it? Can I just I don’t care about the money. It would be fun to watch a business grow, but not for business’ sake. Why would we do this? Why would I do this again? I mean, in a few months we’re empty nesters, and we can pretty much do whatever we want and have all kinds of free time. And so why would I tie myself down? Why would I put myself to work? Why would I give myself a mission? And why would I risk my own personal money that I could spend on other things to do that? Why would we do this? And it just needed to be bigger. Not bigger than the moms that we want to bless, but I knew by this point that unless there’s a strong marketing engine behind something, it will never go anywhere. It seems hypothetically like a good idea to throw something onto a cheap platform and just quote, make it available. But I have learned that the only things that make it to the most people are the things that are the best marketed. That’s really the bottom line, is that you have to have a good marketing engine behind anything that you do, whether it’s a for profit or a nonprofit. No matter what you’re doing, your organization, you have to get the word out if you want people to be influenced by it. And so that means that we have to be competitive in our pricing. That means we need good amounts of revenue so that we can crank it back into marketing so that we can get the word out. So I knew all of that, and I knew that I couldn’t go back into this half heartedly. I couldn’t go back in hoping I wouldn’t have to put money in, hoping I wasn’t going to have to put time in, hoping I wasn’t going to have to build systems and train people and actually really build a robust business for real. And so I needed a big enough why. What Mothers Are Facing And I want to read to you some of the sentences and paragraphs and concepts that I wrote about during that three weeks, because by the time this was done, by the time I got to the end of that three weeks, I knew that this was my call. I knew that other women who had said yes to that call again last year, and even more coming into this year, we were here for a reason. We have important things to do. And even though every individual matters, and even though we want every single mom to have it, and we want every single mom and her family to be impacted by principles and have their life changed, it’s even bigger than that. It’s bigger than me. It’s bigger than our team. It’s bigger than you. It’s bigger than all of us. So I’m going to read to you some of the thoughts. This is very raw, uncut, just me journaling, talking to you about you, about the women and moms that would be influenced by the work that we’re doing and why. Why I would give my life to this. Why this would be where I put my energy. Moms see every day the negative effects on their children of the lack of virtue in our culture. Often it worries or scares them, and they don’t know what to do about it besides training their children differently. But even that is difficult because it goes against the culture. So this is what I was writing. So here’s more. I’m going to read a couple pages to you. So moms feel stuck and scared and overwhelmed as mothers, but also personally unfulfilled because they know motherhood is their first calling, but not their only one. Many don’t have enough self awareness and self knowledge to know how to harness their gifts effectively for their own enrichment and to then use those gifts in the service of others. They don’t feel seen. Sometimes they feel that they and their own interests and desires don’t matter. They’re always coming second or third or fourth because they want to be great moms, but they don’t know how to do it differently and it’s just getting old. But they’re also women of integrity who begin to feel miserable as they put their family first and can’t find balance, and they long to do more and be more, but they believe that this will leave their family behind and make them a bad mom. So a lot of what I was writing about was just what is the situation that moms find themselves in. And I was that right there, and I understand it perfectly, and I empathize with all of those pain points and more. A Bigger Mission And then I went on, and this is again just all different thoughts thrown down on paper. Our culture is suffering so much. We’ve moved away from the education that would have trained us to live according to true principles and pursue truth and virtue. And that’s why we need an army of moms that can train up a new culture. We need moms who get their crap together and start making a difference. And again, this is me a little raw, unplugged. I was upset about the culture, upset at where we find ourselves. So I wrote, and I don’t care if they think they can’t. If moms think they can’t do this, and I don’t care if they don’t want to, or they don’t know how. They’re needed. Their education is insufficient to find the balance, thrive as women and mothers, and make this cultural shift no matter how much modern education they got, because they don’t know how to live by principles, just like I didn’t. And if they don’t have some balance and resources, they don’t know what needs fixing and how to fix it, that’s an educational problem. And because they don’t know how, they console themselves that all that matters is their kids. They tell themselves that they’re perfectly justified in playing small and not taking risks. They believe no one expects them to change the world or even their neighborhood, so they don’t. But if they don’t, who will? Because moms don’t need to do this so they can feel important or have purpose and deep meaning, although they will. It’s not even so their kids will see their example, although they will. It’s because the world is rejecting truth and we need champions of truth. And moms have more motivation than anyone else to make a change in our culture because they want a better world for their kids. We need a movement, something worth fighting for, sacrificing for, and giving our lives to. Providing a healthier culture for our grandchildren. A New Identity for Mothers So for any mom that is listening right now, here’s what I wrote. I want to take you to a new life where you have power and influence over yourself, your family, and your community. A life where you’re seen and needed and used and you’re making a difference and you know it, and your family is on the journey with you every step of the way, because when mothers are lifted, the culture is lifted. I want to give you two new identities. The first one is, as a mission driven mom, you work on yourself so you can show up differently for yourself and your family. You seek truth, identify it, and stabilize your life with it. You learn to balance your own personal growth with that of your family. You become intentional and begin leading your family to a more principled, centered, intentional, servant leadership focused life. You become powerful, confident, self accepting, and intentional. And then once you graduate from the MDM Academy, you can join our leadership team. And in this role, you see yourself as a member of a vast community of moms dedicated to lifting the culture and reinstating virtue and a love of country. You will surround yourself with women who know and speak truth with courage, women who see real problems in their communities and work together to apply principled solutions. You are one of many noble, courageous, virtuous women who elevate the people around you and invest in each other’s worthy projects and goals. You and other moms like you become the hope for our future. What We Are Building Now Now, in order to accomplish this movement, we’re doing a whole bunch of things. We’ve hired experts and built a powerhouse team of incredible women who know how to do their role with absolute excellence. We’ve used best business practices to get us supremely organized. We’ve put the time into market research to bring you the best product at a price that is still below market value, but where compensation is sustainable for us to stick around and serve you for a very long time. We’ve refined your journey in the Academy and beyond. We’ve reintroduced the MDM Celebration, and it’s coming again this fall. The theme is Mothers of Creation, and I hope to see you there. We’re finalizing Level Three so that it will be available permanently. We’ve outlined the Clapham Leadership Team and its role in our communities. We have women finishing up mission projects who will graduate this fall. And I’ll be releasing a new book this summer and another one coming next year. There’s so much going on and so much to look forward to. An Invitation to Join the Movement Now, Henry David Thoreau said, for every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one hacking at the root. MDM is striking at the root. We’re taking first ourselves, and then our families, and then our communities, back to natural law, to truth, and to virtue, and providing principled solutions to difficult community issues, which will lead to lasting healthy solutions. Are you ready to do something that’s really going to matter? That will be one of the deepest sources of meaning, fulfillment, and joy in your life? That will have the greatest lasting impact? That will bring renewal and support to you and your family? That will build the most beautiful lifelong friendships and sense of community you’ve ever known? And fill your days with a sense of determination you’ve never had and lift you and your children and your community like nothing else can? If so, then please join me and other mission driven moms on this journey as we link arms to change the world, beginning right now with you. Because we can’t accomplish this alone. So please join us and share this with every other woman and mom who’s ready to put their personal lives in line with truth and become part of something bigger than themselves, something that has the power to make the world a better place. Because we can only do this together. This is a movement, and we are so glad that you are a part of it. Closing Invitation If you want to learn more and dig deeper into the things I’ve been sharing with you today and over the last few weeks, I would love to see you join me this week at my free training. I am going to walk you through why the culture has been declining and the simple and powerful steps you and your friends can take to build a solid foundation in your homes and then link arms with us to lift the culture. The link is in the description, and I will see you there.
EP 145 She Changed Her Family by Changing How She Thinks
What if the transformation you want in your home does not start with better tactics, but with better thinking? In this episode, Audrey Rindlisbacher sits down with Amy Updike for an honest conversation about motherhood, anger, victimhood, healing, principles, and the kind of inner growth that changes everything. Amy shares how learning truth based principles helped her move from overwhelm and reactivity to greater peace, confidence, clarity, and self leadership. They talk about what it means to understand first principles, how to love people without becoming permissive, how to hold boundaries without losing connection, and why learning how to think has changed Amy’s family, leadership, relationships, and home life. If you have ever felt frustrated, emotionally reactive, discouraged in motherhood, or unsure how to move forward with confidence, this episode will give you language, hope, and a new way to think. In this episode, you will hear about: moving from victimhood to creator thinking how principles change family culture loving others without compromising truth boundaries, peace, and self leadership why personal transformation changes everything Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts for more conversations on motherhood, principles, faith, family culture, self leadership, and mission driven living. Resources How to Stop Feeling Powerless & Become the Expert in Your Own Life (register for the free class) The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict https://a.co/d/02apueAm AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction Audrey Rindlisbacher: Welcome back to the Mission Driven Mom. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher, founder of the Mission Driven Mom and author of The Mission Driven Life. I have a special treat for you today. I am joined by my friend Amy Updyke, and we are going to talk about her journey over the last few years and the impact of the truths and principles that we teach and how they have had an impact in her life. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And so I am super excited for you to hear her story. We are going to start, Amy, with just telling us a little bit about yourself. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? What are some of your hobbies? You have a family. Just give us a snapshot of who Amy is. Amy Updike: I was actually born in Germany, of all places. Amy Updike: Oh, my dad was in the military. I am number six out of eight kids. I was mostly raised in Austin, Texas, though. And we just had a really big family, and I have got four sisters and three brothers. One of them passed away when I was really young. That is definitely a big part of my journey. Amy Updike: My youngest brother died when I was nine, and he was four. He drowned. Wow. And that has just been a big part of family and why it is important to [00:01:00] me and my belief systems. I loved growing up in Texas. I had a beautiful experience there and met my husband in Idaho. We have been married a long time. Amy Updike: We have got four kids. They range in age from 24 to 16 now. Nice. So I am toward the end of my parenting journey. I have learned a lot through the years. Amy Updike: Things are changing. It is a different phase now. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Life in Oregon and Family Background Amy Updike: So we are now in Oregon, and I lived in the suburbs growing up, but here we live on lots of forest land in the middle of nowhere. Amy Updike: So it is a different, wow, it is a different journey out here, and I have learned a lot living in the country and all the different challenges and fun things that go along with that. So we have raised our kids out in the middle of nowhere, in the forest in Oregon. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. How close is your closest neighbor? Amy Updike: About a half mile. Amy Updike: Oh wow. So the nearest town is a little town, Banks, and it is a good 12 to 15 minute drive. But to get any real shopping, we have to go half an hour, so we drive a lot. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh man. Wow. And do you have quite a bit of property yourself? Is that part of it? Amy Updike: [00:02:00] We actually live on the property that my husband’s grandpa bought. Amy Updike: And so my kids are fourth generation on that property, and we are here taking care of his mom, and we are going to be here for quite a while. That is part of the family journey. Hobbies, Education, and Homeschooling Audrey Rindlisbacher: What are some things that you love to do? What are some of your personal hobbies? Amy Updike: I love to read. I have always loved to read. I love dancing. My husband and I ballroom dance. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, awesome. I keep trying to drag him along to that. Amy Updike: And I have also been a part of a clogging group. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, cool. Amy Updike: I created Dance in a Can. I also love to sing. I am part of a community choir in Oregon, and that is a big joy in my life. I am very big into homeschooling. I have started my own homeschooling group, and it has grown, and we are in our fourth year. That is a lot of fun. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I spend a lot of time studying. Amy Updike: And I really believe in education. I got my two year degree when my husband and I were married, and then I stopped going to school so I could support him to get his degree. And I ended up going back to school, but it took me eight years to get the last two years of schooling to get my bachelor’s, and I am pretty proud of that. Amy Updike: I am proud [00:03:00] of the consistency that it took. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: To get that degree. So I had my bachelor’s degree. Yeah. Especially Audrey Rindlisbacher: When you have children. Yes. One hundred percent. Amy Updike: I started when my oldest was nine months, and I ended when my youngest was about a year old. So Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: It was quite the journey. Before Discovering Mission Driven Mom Audrey Rindlisbacher: Let us go back a few years and talk about where you were before you found the Mission Driven Mom and what life was like for you a few years ago. Audrey Rindlisbacher: It is fun Amy Updike: to think about Audrey Rindlisbacher: what you were working on, what you were struggling with, what you were looking for, and what drew you to this program. Amy Updike: At that stage of my life, I had a lot of little people, and I was really struggling with self doubt. I was struggling with anger and trying to keep my cool. Every morning I would wake up and make a commitment to myself that I would not yell at the kids. And every morning I would wake up and make a commitment to myself to keep my cool and to be calm and to not have all these negative feelings. Amy Updike: And I read a lot of books. I tried a lot of self help books, and they helped to some degree or another, but the intellectual knowledge did not really transfer into my daily attitude, and I [00:04:00] would do pretty well for the first couple hours, and then something would happen and I would just lose it. Amy Updike: And it was a bad joke that when we went to school or anything, it was just normal for Mom to lose it and swear and say things that I am not proud of. Amy Updike: And you just get to the point where you are just not proud of who you are, and you are scared of what you are doing to your kids. Amy Updike: And I had a lot of frustration and anger toward my in laws, actually, because we were living in the same house with them, which I love. It is a blessing, but it also has its own challenges. And it was never really part of our plan. Our plan was to move up here, to have our own home. And it just was not happening. Amy Updike: We were still with them in their home, and I felt a lot of what I have come to now know is victimhood. I did a lot of blaming and shaming and comparing and criticizing and just wallowing in poor pitiful me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And that was really the stage I was at. I had started homeschooling, and I was loving it, but I was struggling with having them home all the time. Amy Updike: I joke. Yeah, sure. Part of homeschooling is having your kids home with you until you get used to that. People ask, what do [00:05:00] I do? I need to homeschool. What should I do first? And I say, make sure that your home life is in order. Make sure that you have got systems and that you have rules and that you have family culture and schedules. Amy Updike: Do not even worry about the curriculum. But I was battling all of that, trying to get that and myself in control. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Discovering the Academy Amy Updike: And so when I discovered the Mission Driven Mom Academy, it was one of those moments where my heart told me I needed it, and I did not really know why, and I could not really afford it. Amy Updike: And it was an introductory thing. I was thinking it was the very first year you did it. It was an introductory price. And even at that low price, it was still a sacrifice. And I am just so grateful I started it. It took me two years to complete all the content on my own. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Tell us about that journey through the Academy. What happened those first couple years? Amy Updike: I loved the content. I loved the videos because they were short, uh huh, and succinct, but powerful, action packed. And so actually I have a lot of memories of walking or running on the treadmill while watching your videos. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh. Amy Updike: And so many times it would interrupt my workout because I would have to stop and write things down. Oh, that is so good. Amy Updike: I have to write that down. So I had a [00:06:00] lot of fun working through those videos, but I think the impact of really, truly finding out who I was was so powerful for me. Learning my strengths and getting to a point where I could love myself to the point of saying, these are my strengths, rather than saying, these are my weaknesses and always focusing on my weaknesses. Amy Updike: I was criticizing myself for my weaknesses. Yes. Always trying to fix my weaknesses instead of embracing my strengths. Yeah. And I have come to the point where I am comfortable talking about my strengths because I am also comfortable talking about my weaknesses. And it has been a really beautiful journey going through the content and finding out what my strengths are through the StrengthsFinder, finding out what my temperaments are, what my values are, what really matters to me, and what my story is. Amy Updike: The Cure for the Common Life story was really powerful. Going through all these impactful memories of my life and figuring out why they were meaningful and what that informed me about myself. So I got to the point where I knew who I was truly, and I knew who God was and that He loved me. Amy Updike: And that I loved Him and that I knew what He [00:07:00] wanted for me. And by the end of that, writing my mission statement was so powerful because I have this beautiful mission statement, which incorporates so many aspects of my life and so many things, and the book is a treasure to me. Amy Updike: My workbook is a treasure because I can open it up. And I just recently wanted to look for a job and to figure out what I would be good at. I looked through it and I said, this is what I have, and I know for sure what I am good at. I have seen it in my life. I have the kind of evidence of the test, but I also have the evidence and proof of my life. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. The Empowerment Dynamic and Becoming a Creator Amy Updike: And it has given me a lot of confidence. Also, I think the most impactful thing from this book, and I just want everyone to read it, is The Power of TED, The Empowerment Dynamic by David Emerald. It literally, and I am not exaggerating, has changed my life. I have read so many books on self help, trying to curb my anger, trying to curb my frustrations and change my behavior. Amy Updike: But none of them did it until I read that book and I started to recognize when I am being a victim. And that simply is it. When I know I am complaining, criticizing, shaming, or comparing myself to [00:08:00] others or competing, yeah, any of those times I can immediately go, you are being a victim. Amy Updike: And the moment I recognize that, I step back and say, okay, how can I be a creator? How can I get out of this drama triangle? How can I stop blaming everybody for persecuting me and start to change my actions, which is the only thing I can change? And that has helped with our finances. Amy Updike: It has helped with my friendships. It has helped with my leadership roles. It has helped with my children. It has helped with my relationship with my in laws. It has helped every aspect of my life. And it has also helped with how I love myself, because many times I blame and shame myself and have got to stop and say, wait, no. Amy Updike: Yeah. But that is not what this is about. So it has been really fun, this content. I have gone through it myself and then I went through Mission Driven Mom Level Two, learning about principles, which I have a lot to say about that. But I have also taught it. I have taught it to youth twice now. I am in my second time teaching it to youth, and it has been so joyful. Amy Updike: We just did the lesson on subhuman and superhuman, and I finally get it the third time through. I finally understand it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And I am able to make connections [00:09:00] to Covey’s Seven Habits and I am able to make connections to David Emerald’s drama triangle and other things that I have read to understand. Amy Updike: What that really means. And I even had an experience this week where I put myself in subhuman. I was just down in the dumps. I had to stop and really just coach myself through the verbiage of, no, we are not going to be there. We are not going to be a victim. We are not going to whine and moan and say, it is never going to change. Amy Updike: Yeah. We are going to look at it truthfully and just say, what can I do, and accept what I cannot change Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: and change what I can. And it really has changed not only me, but it has changed my whole family culture. And thankfully I got it at a point where I could have an influence on all of my kids. Amy Updike: One of my boys in particular struggles with a lot of the things I struggle with. Yeah. The anger and the shame and the victimhood. And it was really fun. One time he was in a class with me, and I was teaching this, and he came home and I said something I should not have said. And he said, Mom, you are being a victim. Amy Updike: Do not you love it when they throw it back at you? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Love when they call you out. Amy Updike: Thank you. Thank you for that reminder. You are [00:10:00] right. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So that is really powerful. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Yeah. And that whole section, we do that self leadership four times, and that first section on self leadership, like learning about the types of victims in conjunction with the book and blame and shame like you keep talking about and how they all work together and all of that kind of stuff. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And then later learning to tell ourselves the truth. That is a nice cadence that makes a difference. So you feel like, I remember we were on the phone a little while ago. You said something about how you had tried therapy as well. Is that right? Therapy, Trauma, and the Application of Principles Amy Updike: I have been in therapy. Amy Updike: We were in marriage therapy for a little bit, and recently I was in therapy for some pretty traumatic family drama that happened in my nuclear family. Amy Updike: For me, the therapy was more of triage. Yeah. Getting me out of a hole at that moment. Yeah. And this is more of an everyday life thing, how to handle the everyday life things. Amy Updike: And then when the big things happen, you can get out of it faster and easier. I had a pretty traumatic experience a few years ago. [00:11:00] My mother was actually killed because of my father. He ran over her with his truck and he was arrested for it. Amy Updike: And there is a lot of evidence that it was intentional. That happened almost three years ago. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Wow. I am so sorry, Amy. Amy Updike: Yeah, it was pretty horrific. And I have a pretty special relationship with my parents. My dad was quite abusive, not to me so much, but very much to my mother and to my brothers and sisters to different degrees. And there is a lot of pain in memory of my dad. And so this happening just made it really bad. Yeah. Made the relationships really hard. And so when I got the call that my mom was in the hospital, I immediately flew down and I was with my mom and dad, and I was with my dad in the house. Amy Updike: And then I would go to the hospital, and it turns out she was so damaged that we had to take her off the machines. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And my brothers and sisters flew in for the funeral, and I was there trying to navigate on the ground what was going on. And while I was there, I had some really [00:12:00] difficult but interesting experiences that showed me how much I have learned. Amy Updike: About loving myself and loving others and loving God. And I was able to be in that situation and see the principles of it, see how much, see the good in it, see the good in my dad, and be there for my mom, but also easily forgive my siblings for their struggles because some of them chose never to speak to him again. Amy Updike: And I completely understand, and they could not understand how I could speak to my dad. But these teachings and these skills that I have learned through the Mission Driven Mom equipped me to be able to have those tough conversations and helped me to separate myself from other people’s emotions and feelings and viewpoints to the point that I could understand them, but still hold true to what in my heart was right for me. And that has been a really powerful journey, being able to see other people’s choices in terms of principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: To be able to love them and still love myself and really not [00:13:00] judge. Amy Updike: I think there is a whole conversation that could happen about what judging really is, but Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: to not condemn them for their feelings and their actions, but to understand them and love them, really felt like I was given a gift, just an incredible gift. Amy Updike: To be able to handle that situation. Because when I got out of that situation and got home, I just collapsed and I felt the anger that my siblings felt. I felt the hurt and all of the emotions that they were feeling. But while I was there, I just felt peace and love and I was able to talk to the doctors and help with the things at home and all the things that needed to happen. Amy Updike: I was able to do them and be clear headed because of that kind of extra gift from God and the skills I was given. They helped me through it. Learning Principles and Building from Them Amy Updike: Principles are a second part of this journey that have completely changed the way I think. Amy Updike: I was part of a homeschool group that I loved, with dear people, but there were some things going on that I was slowly choosing maybe were not for me, that I wanted to go a different direction. Amy Updike: And I wanted some different styles of leadership and I wanted a different direction in education, just [00:14:00] curricula and ways to go about it. Amy Updike: And when I was pondering what that would look like and when I should do it and how I should do it and what the structure of the school would be and all those things, the Mission Driven Mom Celebration came up and I got an email that invited me to it, and they were going to talk about principles, and I just felt the strongest pull that I needed to be there. Amy Updike: I badly needed to be there. I did not know why, and we did not really have the finances for it, but somebody said if it is right, God will open a way. And so I just popped online and I found a ticket for a screaming deal. And I said, okay, this must be right. Wow. And so I planned and I told my husband I wanted to go, and he fully supported me, as he always does. Amy Updike: He is awesome. And I went all the way to Texas and sat with the most incredible women and learned about principles. And it was so new to me. People use the word principle incorrectly so many times. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: They use it as opinions. They use it as their own experiences. They use it as truth, but I do not think people really understand what a principle is. Amy Updike: And as I walked out of there, I had a lot of notes and a lot of [00:15:00] excitement and some understanding. And I started just diving right in and trying to apply what I had learned, trying to understand what principles are. I was so excited by the five questions. I was so excited by the idea that anything in my life, Amy Updike: I could figure out what the principle is and then figure out what my personal application is. So what I ended up doing is I ended up designing my school all around principles. The very first thing we did is we made a list of what our principles were, and I double checked that. I was not really good at that yet, but I was trying to double check that they were real, make sure they were backed up by scripture. Amy Updike: They were backed up by experience, that they really held true and they were general enough to apply in lots of different situations. So we came up with our list of principles and started there. Amy Updike: And it was a beautiful experience because I was so concerned about making a big change like that, which undoubtedly did hurt some people. Amy Updike: Some people had their feelings hurt because I made this choice and it shook up the structure of some things around. And I [00:16:00] hated that, but I also knew that I wanted to Amy Updike: I wanted to make sure that what I was building was not a reaction to something. I wanted to make sure that it was not a response, that I was not going against something, but instead going for something, which is why we started on principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And it has been a really beautiful experience because everything has centered around those principles. Amy Updike: And even now, four years in, one of our leadership team always stops and says, what is the principle for that? When someone comes up and has a concern or they are frustrated about something or a kid does something wrong and we want to start another rule or whatever the situation is, we always ask, what is the principle? Amy Updike: And it allows us to go back to our core values. It allows us to go back to the reason we do things. And so many times we realize we do not need another rule for that. We just need to reinforce the principle. We need to reteach the principle, or we need to change the structure of things so that the culture is surrounding the principle better. Amy Updike: And it really has worked. It has been such a beautiful experience, having [00:17:00] all of the structure of the school, the rules and the policies and the classes and even what classes we teach and why we teach them and what age we teach them. Everything is around these principles that we defined in the beginning. Amy Updike: And while some people, I lost some friends over it and it really makes me very sad. They may never be as close to me as they were before. But it makes a huge difference that I know in my heart I was going toward principles and I was doing something that I was guided to do, that I wanted to do. Amy Updike: But also it was not a reaction to anything. It was building something that was important to me. Something else I wanted to say about that. Amy Updike: I knew in my heart that I had done something and acted in a way that was in line with my values and also was something that I felt like God approved of. I felt because we started with principles and because I did an introspection to know how I wanted to behave, how I wanted things to look, that I feel right in my heart. Amy Updike: I have a friend that always says, sometimes you are the villain in someone else’s story. And that gives me a lot of peace. Not to say my actions have always been perfect, but my intentions [00:18:00] have been right or good. My intentions were pure. I wanted good things. And sometimes that gives us a lot of peace, just to know that I acted according to my values and that I am right with God. Amy Updike: And then let the chips fall where they may and just hope that those relationships resolve themselves eventually. And in our day and time, that experience has given me peace in other situations that are harder, truly because in our relationships, in our families, I think most of us have someone or many people in our family who are making choices that we do not feel are right with God and we do not feel are right with principles. Amy Updike: But seeing it that way gives us so much peace. So another example is I have a child who has made choices that are not what I would have wanted for them. But I have been able to separate my grief at the hopes and wishes dashed and my beliefs and rules and what they [00:19:00] intend and want. And in Mission Driven Mom Level Two, we learn a lot about principles and we learn about first principles, which are hard to distinguish. Amy Updike: And it took me a long time to figure out. First Principles and Applications Amy Updike: In fact, I think I fully understood it when I taught it to youth after I had taken the class and then I taught it, and then I was like, I think I know what I am talking about. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Teaching really is a good way to learn, for sure. Amy Updike: But first principles are incredible because once you identify what it is, you can separate yourself from the applications. Amy Updike: I can look at this child and say, I know their heart is wanting this. I know their heart believes this. I know this is what they are going for. And I agree with that first principle, sometimes even that principle, but that application, it diverges. And those applications many times are not good for you, are not in line with God’s law, are not something that is proven to be healthy. Amy Updike: But I can still show compassion and love and understanding toward that child and other people in my life because I can understand where they are coming from. I can agree with them where I agree and then kindly disagree appropriately for the rest of it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And be okay that they are living in a different way than I am living. Amy Updike: Principles are just so powerful because we can [00:20:00] use them in every aspect of our lives. For example, you have taught so much about principles and health, for example. It is just an easier one to talk about. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I may choose to never eat sugar again, or I may choose to have a Kit Kat bar every single night, or I may choose to only have non refined sugars, or whatever it is. Amy Updike: And that is an application. And I do not have to judge or be angry or be frustrated or condemn or get all up in arms because somebody is choosing it differently than me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I can understand we both are trying to be healthier. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: That we both agree that limiting sugar is a good thing. Amy Updike: That is way easier. It is a simple topic than some of the other ones we could talk about. But that has given me so much love for other people and it allows me to be kind and allows me not to get upset. Whereas before I understood these things, and like I mentioned earlier, I struggled so much with being angry. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And this has allowed me not to be angry about it because I can pause and say, wait a second, am I being a victim? Am I in the wrong? I can pause and say, are they living this principle in a different way than I choose to live it? And whether I agree or not, I can still have compassion and love for them. Amy Updike: And that [00:21:00] has changed all my relationships in my life. Love Without Permissiveness Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Wow. That is incredible. You were just making me think about how I feel like in the world, we are told that in order to really love, in order to really show empathy and compassion, we need to be permissive. And you are saying something very different than that, but on the surface, sometimes it can look similar. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And that is why when we can think in terms of the natural law framework and really have a handle on it, because what you are saying is that because you can build bridges with people on first principles upon which you agree, then you can honor the intention. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And you can see that in their own way, they are trying to be a principled person, but they are confused about maybe which principles follow because they do not have these thinking skills, or their applications are not what they ought to be or are wreaking havoc or whatever. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And so it gives you tools to parse all that out and to discern so much more clearly the difference between being permissive [00:22:00] and continuing to do actions of love for whoever it is, regardless of what choices they are making, without compromising what you know to be true, without compromising the principles you are striving to live and the values that you hold dear. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Because you can let go of their specific daily choices and it, I do not know, somehow. And I guess you and I just have this shared language so we can understand each other and it might be a little harder for the audience to understand until they get there, but it is so liberating to be able to say, I know that at any moment that you choose to step back into principles, your life can course correct. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And until you hit up against life enough times, then maybe you need to learn that way. And that is perfectly fine. I am still going to love you and be here for you, but I do not have to affirm that I love everything that you are doing. I do not have to approve of all of your choices. I can recognize that they might not be principled, but I can see, I can differentiate you from your choices. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And anyway, parsing all of that out, understanding it more clearly, seeing it [00:23:00] for what it is is so much easier. Amy Updike: You are right. It does on the surface sound like the phrase, you do you. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: It does. And as you were talking, I was pondering the difference. And I think the difference mostly is in the approach and in my heart. Amy Updike: The book Anatomy of Peace teaches about getting your heart in a heart of peace, not a heart of war. Amy Updike: And this allows me to be in a heart of peace, and I will give you an extension to this story. Just recently for the holidays, this child was home and opened up their heart to me about a significant change in their life that they were going to be making. Amy Updike: Something that maybe five years ago would have devastated me. Amy Updike: And do not get me wrong, I do not agree with it. I am saddened by it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But because he knew I loved him. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Because he knew my heart was at peace toward him. And for clarification, this is a child who is older and out of the house. Amy Updike: Yeah. He is an adult. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And making these choices. It is a different situation when they are in your home. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But this conversation went really well, and it went well because I was able to talk in terms of my beliefs. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: [00:24:00] And my principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And how much I loved him. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And the things that would be acceptable and allowed in my home and things that would not be, and the conversation went so well because he was able to say, yes. I hear you. I respect you because I respected him too. I think that is the difference. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Boundaries were not taken away. There were still things that I made very clear that I would not pay for nor support. Amy Updike: In public nor would I allow in my home. Amy Updike: And he understood that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But also it was a good conversation because he also understood that I was not taking away his choice. That I was understanding where he was coming from, that I was hearing him and respecting his experience and his reasonings. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So it is tricky and it is tender when it is somebody that is Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh yeah. Amy Updike: that close to you. But it is not a you do you thing. It is more of an open up your heart so you can share when the time is appropriate. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: When they are ready to listen. And that will never come if I just come down with [00:25:00] only my application rules, my home, my rules. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Or this is where the line is. You cannot cross it. So these principles and this thinking, as you can see, have really changed the way I behave toward even those closest to me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: That I do not feel like I have compromised on what is allowed in my home or what is acceptable or what I will do because it is boundaries. Amy Updike: Yeah. Yeah. What I will do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: You do not have to pretend to be someone else, or you do not have to relax your own values and your own standards, and you do not have to pretend like you approve, but yet the relationship stays strong and loving and close and clearly there is enough trust that he feels like he can talk to you and be open and honest with you. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Because why? Because he wants to stay in your life. He does not want to write you off because he knows he is loved and you have been able to build that between the two of you. So that is really incredible. Amy Updike: Yeah. I just hope it continues. I hope I can keep acting in a way that he feels loved. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Who Amy Is Now Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. So tell me where you are today in terms, especially, you have mentioned, you have thrown out some words, you have said some things, but give us a [00:26:00] picture of just some words or phrases or sentences that might describe, before you talked about someone who was angry, resentful, victim mindset, troubled, overwhelmed, frustrated. And who is Amy now? Amy Updike: I feel confident. I feel at peace. Sure, I still have rough days occasionally, but I feel self assured because I know I truly do know who I am and I know what my values are and I know what God wants from me and what His laws are. And I just love the phrase, we are practicing principles. Amy Updike: Because that is exactly what we are doing. Even a couple days ago, a situation happened where I was thrown right into victimhood. I was right into, oh, this is never going to change, and I am so frustrated. But I was able to get out of it really quickly. Yes. And even though sometimes those emotions still stay, I can keep self checking, going, nope. Amy Updike: What can I do today? I can go on a walk. What can I do today? I can take a breath and assure myself that it can be, it is going to be all right. Because I am not in control of everything, but I am in control of me. I am in control of how I feel. I am in control of, control is the [00:27:00] right word, but I can choose my thoughts. Amy Updike: I can choose to rephrase things. I choose to kind of feel Audrey Rindlisbacher: It does not Amy Updike: Yeah. Audrey Rindlisbacher: It does feel like you are in control because you are living intentionally and you are determining who you are going to be today. How are you going to show up today? Audrey Rindlisbacher: We talk about this in the Academy quite a bit, that we can choose to entertain certain thoughts and the thoughts that we entertain determine the emotions that we feel. And that is at least part of the equation that I hear you saying, is that you have retrained the way that you think through the lens of principles, but through other tools as well. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And now you are making, you are living much more intentionally from that tiny seed of thought choice all the way through to these hard conversations that you are having with your family. And that does make you feel more in control. Because you talked about before how you would wake up and make a commitment to yourself that you were not going to get angry and you were not going to do this or that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And yet so often, several years ago, you would give in [00:28:00] to that anger because you did not have the tools, you did not have the principles, you did not have a better plan. You did not understand what was at the root of it. There is a really famous quote, I think it is Henry David Thoreau, that I love a lot but have been using a lot lately. Audrey Rindlisbacher: He says, for every thousand that are hacking at the branches of evil, or the leaves of evil, something like that, there is only one hacking at the root. And that is something that I really wanted the MDM Academy to give moms, was to get to the root. Why, these are all of the symptoms. This is the environment. This is what I am swimming in. But what is really at the heart of that? Audrey Rindlisbacher: And in all of those self leadership sections, those titles of those sections are increasing my personal power. Would you say that you feel more powerful now? That would be a term you would use for yourself? Amy Updike: Absolutely. Getting to the Root Amy Updike: And I love that idea of hitting at the roots because, like I mentioned before, I have spent so much time reading self help books and I have gone to therapy about different issues in my life, and they would help, Amy Updike: Covey talks about the [00:29:00] personality versus the character ethic. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And I felt like I spent so much time just trying to do the things that would fix it. So many times trying to find that one skill that would change it. Amy Updike: And sure, those techniques do make a difference on the surface, but it does not change the root, the core problem. And in me, the core problem was a feeling of insecurity, a feeling of not being of value. It stems from some childhood trauma. It stems from just different beliefs about myself. But recognizing who I really am has changed it all. Amy Updike: And recognizing my power to have influence over my family, which sounds power hungry. It is not. But the creator mindset that I can create a home of peace and not just do it out of, okay, I am going to count to ten, which is a good skill. But is it not better when you stop and say, okay, why am I angry? Amy Updike: I am angry because I am embarrassed that this child is going out in public looking this way, and they do not have their shoes on. So rather than freaking out that they do not have their shoes on and screaming at them, I can stop and recognize this is about me. Amy Updike: This is [00:30:00] about Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: me feeling embarrassed. Audrey Rindlisbacher: So often, almost all the time, there is something that you can do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: Just changing that dialogue in your head makes all the difference in the world to actually what comes out. So many of these skills really have changed my behavior and changed how I think and who I am, my character. And it is not just the videos and the quizzes, which are great, and I have learned a lot from them, absolutely. Amy Updike: I have also just loved diving deep into all of the classics and how every book I read now I can find a principle in it and I can find a way to bring it into my heart and recognize truths or untruths. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Principles are so fun once you start to recognize them because you see them in movies and it starts to spoil movies for you and you see them in, sorry, sun is coming in. Amy Updike: Hey baby. Sorry, I am in a recorded interview, so I am going to wait for you to leave the room and then I am going to finish what I am going to say. Amy Updike: Okay. What was I saying? Audrey Rindlisbacher: How you can find principles as you read books and you can find them in movies and other things like that. Principles in Everyday Life and the World Around Us Amy Updike: So looking for principles in these books and movies is so fun. And I also have [00:31:00] found that I can look for principles or broken principles in the ballot when I am voting. Amy Updike: And that has changed the way I vote. It has changed the way I look at articles or things that are going on in the Supreme Court or things that are going on in current events. I can look back and say, okay, what is the principle? What is this person really arguing? What is this person really thinking? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Is there something we can agree on? And where? It has just created so much peace in my life that I do not fly off on the winds of whatever crazy thing is happening. And things happen all the time in the world and in my home. So it just allows me to have way more peace and confidence and control and love. Audrey Rindlisbacher: That is beautiful. We have this training coming up, which everyone listening, I would love to invite you to come. I would love to have you there. And we are talking about how to stop feeling powerless and become the expert in your own life. And that means exactly what you are talking about, Amy, that you can go to other experts, you can read, go to the doctor, see a therapist, look up someone who is running for office, a candidate. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And at the end of the day, [00:32:00] trust that your discernment, that the principles you have discovered, that your decisions about what all these other people are, all this advice that people are giving you, is that you can trust yourself to make those decisions, that you can trust yourself to be the expert about how you ought to move forward. Audrey Rindlisbacher: I heard a lot of that when you were talking about losing friendships as you tried to be principled. That just requires so much conviction and confidence and discernment, I think, to be able to say, this is the truth and I am going to stand on the truth. And I am sorry if you do not want to come there with me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And that is unfortunate and I will miss you. But that is who I am going to be, that is what I am going to do. Choosing Principles in Community and Leadership Amy Updike: I feel like I want to clarify that experience a bit. It was also really, in the experience of choosing to start a new school and knowing that would hurt some people, the old school that I left, it was really important to me to recognize that they also were operating off of really good, wonderful principles. Amy Updike: And I understood what those principles were. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And it enabled me to think about how I could do things differently and [00:33:00] yet recognize that we both were coming from a really good place and love and support them. And I have done my very best to support that school Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: and all of those families. Amy Updike: And even though it personally pricked when a family would choose them over our school Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: and still do, there is still a lot of shuffling going on, even though that happens, I still never react unkindly about it. I always am supportive because I at my heart understand even if someone chooses not to go to school at all and go back to public school, or they want to choose a charter school, I support them because the principle is that we as parents have the right to choose what our children, what education they get and how they are educated. We have that right. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And who am I to criticize or take away that truth from them? Yeah. And it is all good. We all should educate our children and each child needs something different and sometimes at different times in their lives. Amy Updike: So just understanding that principle and understanding that it is the application that differs changed my heart completely about it. And do not get me wrong, yet it pricked [00:34:00] sometimes. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: Just like I am sure it pricked for them when I made choices. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: But would it not be great if we all saw things that way and we said, okay, that is a different application. Amy Updike: I can support you in what you are doing and love you for what you are doing and not have it be all about me because it is not about me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: It is about all of us trying to live the principles in the best application that works for our family at that time. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Yeah. That is awesome. Agree one hundred percent. Final Encouragement to Moms Audrey Rindlisbacher: So is there anything else that you would like to say to anyone listening? What would your advice be to moms that are out there thinking about joining the program or just wanting to navigate their lives better? Amy Updike: I think I would say that there is nothing more important than what we are doing in our own homes and in our own hearts, and we need to make an investment into ourselves and into our families. And sometimes it takes a really big sacrifice, and it might feel like a big sacrifice, to commit to a program like this or do anything that you are doing to better yourself. Amy Updike: But there is nothing more important than what we do, than finding a way to improve our relationships, than finding peace in our hearts, than understanding how to [00:35:00] navigate this terrifying world. And right now we need it more than ever. I am so grateful that I was exposed to this so long ago so that I had the skills to prepare me for when I really needed it the most. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: The last few years have brought some rough challenges. The passing of my mom and the way it happened was very difficult, to say the least. And having a child that is choosing something different than you ever dreamed for them is hard, and trying to love and understand them. And then I look around and I see so many people just ripped apart in their social groups, even in church, in their families, by the schism that is happening politically and all of the really difficult things that are happening and probably will keep happening. Amy Updike: And to be able to be secure in what you believe, to be able to be secure in how you act, and you have consciously chosen what that should be and you have practiced it and you are working on it and you are training yourself to respond in a respectful, loving way, who does that anymore? That can change everything. Amy Updike: It [00:36:00] can change everything in your life. And it has, for me. It has made some of these experiences that could have been almost irreparable not just bearable, but some of my relationships are even stronger after. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: Because of knowing who I am, knowing what God’s will is, and knowing what the principles are in any of these situations, or that I know how to find a principle. It is a skill that gives me so much peace and confidence. Amy Updike: And I just would hope that women would recognize their power, that we have influence over so many people. And because of this I am now at a stage that not only am I secure in myself and my family is operating well enough, I am working on that. But not only that, but I have been able to turn my focus outward to the community without sacrificing what is going on in my home. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: As we learn about in the Mission Driven Mom, so many times people turn outward first before they have their hearts and their lives in order. And it has been really beautiful being able to affect so many families in our community. Amy Updike: [00:37:00] And, I humbly Amy Updike: families will come to me and say, I cannot believe how you do this. How do you do so much? How do you run this school? How did you start the school? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And first of all, I did not do it alone at all. It was a team. But it was because I was able to start with principles. I was able to start with Creating Impact Through Principles Amy Updike: A vision of what I wanted. And I was able to use those principles to gather people around me who wanted the same thing. And we have been able to make a really big impact in our little corner of the world. And that is all that matters. Yeah. I never will be known in the world and I do not care. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. I, Amy Updike: as long as my friends and family and those people that I am in contact with are bettered because of my influence and that my life is better because of the principles I am choosing, what more matters? Amy Updike: I love the opportunity to be able to have an impact on others. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And to be able to create a community that heals families and gives support and is a place that is safe for faith and a place that people learn and love. And it has been life changing to be able to see these kids. Amy Updike: We have incorporated the five questions into some of our classes, [00:38:00] and they are getting there faster than I was. It has been beautiful to watch them go through the Academy and the changes that happen in their families because they are having an impact on their parents. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: I just wish, I wish that parents and families would recognize the power of doing both, of having the Mission Driven Mom in their home, but also having the Mission Driven Teen in their home because that has changed my kids quite a bit. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Especially this one child I talked about that has made different choices. Even still, I can see him using those skills that we talked about years ago. I can see him stopping and trying to rephrase it and trying to see my point of view. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: It has been really powerful. So even though he has made different choices, these skills still have bettered our relationship and bettered our home life. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: So that has been really beautiful too. So I would encourage families to find it in their hearts to do both, to allow the kids this opportunity to change, but also how much more quickly can the culture of the family change? How much faster can we all practice the skills and get better if we are all learning it together? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So that has been really fun to see, [00:39:00] families grow in character and grow in their relationships. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And in their confidence and peace. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Ordinary Women Doing Extraordinary Things Audrey Rindlisbacher: I want to ask you one last question just because on the back of the book, The Mission Driven Life, one of the things that is on there is it talks about how I was searching out these great men and women that really I admired and I wanted to be like them. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And I was trying to crack the code of how they became those kinds of people. And these seven laws of life mission were the pathway for ordinary people to do extraordinary things. And I know that when women listen to someone like you and you are so polished and beautiful and professional and you are doing big things, that maybe they just cannot imagine ever getting to the point where you are. Audrey Rindlisbacher: I am just wondering, was there a time in your past when the person that you are now and the things that you do now and the influence that you make in your community would have felt impossible for you, that you would have never imagined that you could do the things that you do [00:40:00] now? Amy Updike: Absolutely. In fact, I have a dear friend who, I think it was the very first year I started homeschooling, she looked at me and said, you are going to have your own school one day. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: And I went, what are you talking about? I am just trying to get the kids out the door and teach my one class. What are you talking about? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And she has a gift for seeing the Audrey Rindlisbacher: the Amy Updike: potential in other people. But at that moment I was just thinking I can barely keep my dishes done. I am just trying not to scream at my kids in the morning and not use expletives trying to get them in the car. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, we can laugh now, but it was not funny then. Amy Updike: And I would cry the whole way there because I am like, I cannot believe what I just said. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh. Amy Updike: But yeah, it is a growing process and so many people will say, I do not know how you homeschool. Like how do you do that? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I could never do that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: We can do way more than we think we can. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: And it is one baby step at a time. I just remember going to Walmart with four little kids and somebody looking at me going, how do you do that? I can barely handle the one. And I said, they do not come all at once. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: You grow with it. Amy Updike: Grow Audrey Rindlisbacher: into it. Yep. You grow, Amy Updike: your capacity grows. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: And you learn so much through [00:41:00] every experience. Every hard experience has taught me so much. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And so every little baby step, and as long as we are practicing principles and as long as we are just striving, being self aware and just striving to be a little bit better, it does not even have to be every day. We take steps back, but just over time. Amy Updike: Yeah. As long as the trajectory is that we are able to do a little bit more each time, it is pretty incredible. And I bet you think that too. I look at you and I am just like, oh, how do you do what you do so much and raise your family? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. I just want women that are listening to know that if you are in that place where you are like, I never could, just do not sell yourself short. It is just not true. You just do not know what you can do with the right tools, the right guidance, the right mentors, the right women around you, Amy Updike: Yeah. Audrey Rindlisbacher: and the right support systems and all of that kind of thing. Amy, you are amazing. I really am honored that you would come on today and share your story with us and be so honest and vulnerable and really think you are just such an amazing woman. Closing Invitation and Final Thoughts Audrey Rindlisbacher: So grateful for you and for all that you do and the influence that you have and everything that you have shared today. And so for those listening, [00:42:00] if you want to understand better the kinds of things that Amy has been talking about and understand how you could become more of an expert in your own life and what this thing called principles is and how they work and why they matter and how they could change your life, then I would invite you to click on the link in the description and register for this training that I am going to do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And we are going to spend just an hour and a half together and I am going to walk you through some things that will get you jump started on this path and you will be able to start doing some of the things that Amy is talking about and have a window into how you really can become so much more than you think you can. Audrey Rindlisbacher: How you can solve your problems with truth, how the truth really will make you free. And more than that, you can learn who you really are and walk with confidence. Look at the kind of example that Amy is to her family and the confidence and conviction that she shows them. We are the heartbeat of the home and we represent motherhood and womanhood and adulthood. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And our example is everything. It is everything. And there is just [00:43:00] no reason to wait one more day to learn how to overcome whatever is in your way and move forward. Be more of that example that you would want to be. So I would invite you to join us for that training that is coming up soon. I would love to see you there. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And Amy, thank you again for being here with us. You are incredible and I wish you and your school and your community and your family all the best and hope you continue to grow and have more success in the future. Amy Updike: Thank you so much. You are too kind. I do not feel like I am that great, but I really appreciate it. Therapy and Trauma Amy Updike: We were in marriage therapy for a little bit and recently I was in therapy for some pretty traumatic family drama that happened in my nuclear family. What did you want to know about that? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, I just thought that I had understood that you said that this had helped where therapy had not helped, but maybe that was my, maybe I misunderstood that. Amy Updike: No, I would not agree with that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, okay. Amy Updike: I think therapy taught skills too. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But this was definitely more life changing, I think. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: For me, the therapy was more of triage. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Getting me out of a hole at that moment. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And this is more of everyday life things, how to handle the everyday life things. Amy Updike: And then when the big things happen, you can get out of it faster and easier. I am not sure how much you Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: want to hear about this, but I had a pretty traumatic experience a few years ago. My mother was actually killed because of my father. He ran over her with his truck and he was arrested for it. Amy Updike: And there is a lot of evidence that it was intentional. That happened almost three years ago. Audrey Rindlisbacher: How many years ago? Amy Updike: Almost three. It was in March. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Wow. I am so sorry, Amy. Amy Updike: Yeah, it was pretty horrific. And I have a pretty special relationship with my parents. My dad was quite abusive and he, not to me so much, but very much to my mother and to my brothers and sisters to different degrees. And there is a lot of pain in memory of my dad. And so this happening made, it just made it really bad. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Made the relationships really hard. And so when I got the call that my mom was in the hospital, I immediately flew down and I was with my mom and dad, and I was with my dad in the house. Amy Updike: And then I would go to the hospital and it turns out she was so damaged that we had to, we had to take her off the machines. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And my brothers and sisters flew in for the funeral and I was there trying to navigate on the ground what was going on. And while I was there I had some really difficult but interesting experiences that showed me how much I have learned. Amy Updike: About loving myself and loving others and loving God. And I was able to be in that situation and see the principles of it, see how much, see the good in it, see the good in my dad and be there for my mom, but also easily forgive my siblings for their struggles because some of them chose never to speak to him again. Amy Updike: And I completely understand and they could not understand how I could speak to my dad. But these teachings and these skills that I have learned through the Mission Driven Mom equipped me to be able to have those tough communication, wow, those tough conversations and helped me to separate myself from other people’s emotions and feelings and viewpoints to the point that I could understand them, but still hold true to what in my heart was right for me. And that has been a really powerful journey, being able to see other people’s choices in terms of principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: To be able to love them and still love myself and really not judge. Amy Updike: I think there is, that term is, there is a whole conversation that could happen about what judging really is, but yeah. Amy Updike: But to not condemn them for their feelings and their actions, but to understand them and love them. So I really feel like I was given, just between you and me, I really feel like I was given a gift, just an incredible gift. Amy Updike: To be able to handle that situation. Because when I got out of that situation and got home, I just collapsed and I felt the anger that my siblings felt, I felt the hurt and all of the emotions that they were feeling. But while I was there, I just felt peace and love and I was able to talk to the doctors and help with the things at home and all the things that needed to happen. Amy Updike: I was able to do them and be clearheaded because of that kind of extra gift from God and the skills I was given. They helped me through it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. I am so sorry. That is, do you want us to use any of that or do you want us to cut that part? Amy Updike: Whatever you feel like is appropriate. I am okay with it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Okay. Amy Updike: I have never been shy about sharing it. And that is, it is part of the weird journey of recognizing that he made a huge mistake and loving him, but not allowing him to hide from it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: It is a strange duality that I am dealing with. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Wow. Wow. That is incredible. So tell me a little bit more about the principles part. What does that mean to you? What difference does that make in how you live your life? Or just talk about that for a minute. Principles in Practice Amy Updike: Principles are a second part of this journey that have completely changed the way I think. Amy Updike: I was part of a homeschool group that I loved with dear people, but there were some things going on that I was slowly choosing maybe were not for me, that I wanted to go a different direction. Amy Updike: And I wanted some different styles of leadership and I wanted a different direction in education, just curriculum and ways to go about it. Amy Updike: And when I was pondering what that would look like and when I should do it and how I should do it and what the structure of the school would be and all those things, the Mission Driven Mom Celebration came up and I got an email that invited me to it, and they were going to talk about principles, and I just felt the strongest pull that I needed to be there. Amy Updike: I badly needed to be there. I did not know why, and we did not really have the finances for it, but somebody said if it is right, God will open a way. And so I just popped online and I found a ticket for a screaming deal. And I said, okay, this must be right. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: And so I planned and I told my husband I wanted to go, and he fully supported me as he always does. Amy Updike: He is awesome. And I went all the way to Texas and sat with the most incredible women and learned about principles. And it was so new to me. People use the word principle incorrectly so many times. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: They use it as opinions. They use it as their own experiences. They use it as truth, but they do not, I do not think people really understand what a principle is. Amy Updike: And as I walked out of there, I had a lot of notes and a lot of excitement and some understanding. And I started just diving right in and trying to apply what I had learned, trying to understand what principles are. I was so excited by the five questions. I was so excited by the idea that anything in my life, Amy Updike: I could figure out what the principle is and then figure out what my personal application is. So what I ended up doing is I ended up designing my school all around principles. The very first thing we did is we made a list of what our principles were, and I double checked that. I was not really good at that yet, but I was trying to double check that they were real, make sure they were backed up by scripture. Amy Updike: They were backed up by experience, that they really held true and they were vague enough or less detailed enough to apply in lots of different situations. So we came up with our list of principles and started there. Amy Updike: And it was a beautiful experience because I was so concerned about making a big change like that, which undoubtedly did hurt some people. Amy Updike: Some people had their feelings hurt because I made this choice and it shook up the structure of some things around. And I hated that, but I also knew that I wanted to Amy Updike: I wanted to make sure that what I was building was not a reaction to something. I wanted to make sure that it was not a response, that I was not going against something, but instead going for something, which is why we started on principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And it has been a really beautiful experience because everything has centered around those principles. Amy Updike: And even now, four years in, one of our leadership team always stops and says, what is the principle for that? When someone comes up and has a concern or they are frustrated about something or a kid does something wrong and we want to start another rule or whatever situation comes up, we always ask, what is the principle? Amy Updike: And it allows us to go back to our core values. It allows us to go back to the reason we do things. And so many times we realize we do not need another rule for that. We just need to reinforce the principle. We need to reteach the principle, or we need to change the structure of things so that the culture is surrounding the principle better. Amy Updike: And it really has worked. It has been such a beautiful experience. Having all of the structure of the school, the rules and the policies and the classes and even what classes we teach and why we teach them and what age we teach them. Everything is around these principles that we have defined in the beginning. Amy Updike: And while some people, I lost some friends over it and it really makes me very sad. They may never be as close to me as they were before. But it makes a huge difference that I know in my heart I was going toward principles and I was doing something that I was guided to do, that I wanted to do. Amy Updike: But also it was not a reaction to anything. It was building something that was important to me. Something else I wanted to say about that. Amy Updike: I knew in my heart that I had done something and acted in a way that was in line with my values and also was something that I felt like God approved of. I felt because we started with principles and because I did an introspection to know how I wanted to behave, how I wanted things to look, that I feel right in my heart. Amy Updike: I have a friend that always says, sometimes you are the villain in someone else’s story. And that gives me a lot of peace. Not to say my actions have always been perfect, but my intentions have been right or good. My intentions were pure. I wanted good things. And sometimes that gives us a lot of peace just to know that I acted according to my values and that I am right with God. Amy Updike: And then let the chips fall where they may and just hope that those relationships resolve themselves eventually. And in our day and time, that experience has given me peace in other situations that are harder, truly because in our relationships, in our families, I think most of us have someone or many people in our family who are making choices that we do not feel are right with God and we do not feel are right with principles. Amy Updike: But seeing it that way gives us so much peace. So another example is I have a child who has made choices that are not what I would have wanted for them. But I have been able to separate my grief at the hopes and wishes dashed and my beliefs and rules and what they intend and want. And in the Mission Driven Mom Level Two, we learn a lot about principles and we learn about first principles, which are hard to distinguish. Amy Updike: And it took me a long time to figure out. First Principles and Compassion Amy Updike: In fact, I think I fully understood it when I taught it to youth after I had taken the class and then I taught it, and then I was like, I think I know what I am talking about. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Teaching really is a good way to learn, for sure. Amy Updike: But first principles are incredible because once you identify what it is, you can separate yourself from the applications. Amy Updike: I can look at this child and say, I know their heart is wanting this. I know their heart believes this. I know this is what they are going for. And I agree with that first principle. Sometimes even that principle, but that application, it diverges. And those applications many times are not good for you, are not in line with God’s law, are not something that is proven to be healthy. Amy Updike: But I can still show compassion and love and understanding toward that child and other people in my life because I can understand where they are coming from. I can agree with them where I agree and then kindly disagree appropriately for the rest of it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And be okay that they are living in a different way than I am living. Amy Updike: Principles are just so powerful because we can use them in every aspect of our lives. For example, you have taught so much about principles and health, for example. It is just an easier one to talk about. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I may choose to never eat sugar again, or I may choose to have a Kit Kat bar every single night, or I may choose to only have non refined sugars, or whatever it is. Amy Updike: And that is an application. And I do not have to judge or be angry or be frustrated or condemn or get all up in arms because somebody is choosing it differently than me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I can understand we both are trying to be healthier. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: That we both agree that limiting sugar is a good thing. Amy Updike: That is way easier. It is a simple topic than some of the other ones we could talk about. But that has given me so much love for other people and it allows me to be kind and allows me not to get upset. Whereas before I understood these things, and like I mentioned earlier I struggled so much with being angry. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And this has allowed me not to be angry about it because I can pause and say, wait a second, am I being a victim? Am I in the wrong? I can pause and say, are they living this principle in a different way than I choose to live it? And whether I agree or not, I can still have compassion and love for them. Amy Updike: And that has changed all my relationships in my life. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Wow. That is incredible. You were just making me think about how I feel like in the world, we are told that in order to really love, in order to really show empathy and compassion, we need to be permissive. And you are saying something very different than that, but on the surface, sometimes it can look similar. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And that is why when we can think in terms of the natural law framework and really have a handle on it. Because what you are saying is that because you can build bridges with people on Love, Boundaries, and First Principles Audrey Rindlisbacher: First principles upon which you agree, then you can honor the intention. And you can see that in their own way, they are trying to be a principled person, but they are confused about maybe which principles follow because they do not have these thinking skills, or their applications are not what they ought to be or are wreaking havoc or whatever. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And so it gives you tools to parse all that out and to discern so much more clearly the difference between being permissive and continuing to do actions of love for whoever it is, regardless of what choices they are making, without compromising what you know to be true, without compromising the principles you are striving to live and the values that you hold dear. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Because you can let go of their specific daily choices and it, I do not know, somehow. And I guess you and I just have this shared language so we can understand each other and it might be a little harder for the audience to understand until they get there, but it is so liberating to be able to say, I know that at any moment that you choose to step back into principles, your life can course correct. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And until you hit up against life enough times, then maybe you need to learn that way. And that is perfectly fine. I am still going to love you and be here for you, but I do not have to affirm that I love everything that you are doing. I do not have to approve of all of your choices. I can recognize that they might not be principled, but I can see, I can differentiate you from your choices. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And anyway, parsing all of that out, understanding it more clearly, seeing it for what it is is so much easier. Amy Updike: You are right. It does on the surface sound like the phrase, you do you. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: It does. And as you were talking, I was pondering the difference. And I think the difference mostly is in the approach and in my heart. Amy Updike: The book Anatomy of Peace teaches about getting your heart in a heart of peace, not a heart of war. Amy Updike: And this allows me to be in a heart of peace, and I will give you an extension to this story. Just recently for the holidays, this child was home and opened up their heart to me about a significant change in their life that they were going to be making. Amy Updike: Something that maybe five years ago would have devastated me. Amy Updike: And do not get me wrong, I do not agree with it. I am saddened by it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But because he knew I loved him. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Because he knew my heart was at peace toward him. And for clarification, this is a child who is older and out of the house. Amy Updike: Yeah. He is an adult. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And making these choices. It is a different situation when they are in your home. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But this conversation went really well, and it went well because I was able to talk in terms of my beliefs. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And my principles. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And how much I loved him. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And the things that would be acceptable and allowed in my home and things that would not be, and the conversation went so well because he was able to say, yes. I hear you. I respect you because I respected him too. I think that is the difference. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Boundaries were not taken away. There were still things that I have made very clear that I would not pay for nor support. Amy Updike: In public nor would I allow in my home. Amy Updike: And he understood that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: But also it was a good conversation because he also understood that I was not taking away his choice. That I was understanding where he was coming from, that I was hearing him and respecting his experience and his reasonings. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So it is tricky and it is tender. Yeah. When it is somebody that is Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh yeah. Amy Updike: that close to you. But it is not a you do you thing. It is more of an open up your heart so you can share when the time is appropriate. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: When they are ready to listen. And that will never come if I just came down with only my application rules, my home, my rules. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Or this is where the line is. You cannot cross it. So these principles and this thinking, as you can see, have really changed the way I behave toward even those closest to me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: That I do not feel like I have compromised on what is allowed in my home or what is acceptable or what I will do because it is boundaries. Amy Updike: Yeah. Yeah. What I will do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: You do not have to pretend to be someone else, or you do not have to relax your own values and your own standards, and you do not have to pretend like you approve, but yet the relationship stays strong and loving and close and clearly there is enough trust that he feels like he can talk to you and be open and honest with you. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Because why? Because he wants to stay in your life. He does not want to write you off because he knows he is loved and you have been able to build that between the two of you. So that is really incredible. Amy Updike: Yeah. I just hope it continues. I hope I can keep acting in a way that he feels loved. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Who Amy Is Now Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. So tell me where you are today in terms, especially, you have mentioned, you have thrown out some words, you have said some things, but give us a picture with just some words or phrases or sentences that might describe. Before, you talked about someone who was angry, resentful, in a victim mindset, troubled, overwhelmed, frustrated. And who is Amy now? Amy Updike: I feel confident. I feel at peace. Sure, I still have rough days occasionally, but I feel self assured because I know, I truly do know, who I am and I know what my values are and I know what God wants from me and what His laws are. And I just love the phrase, we are practicing principles. Amy Updike: Because that is exactly what we are doing. Even a couple days ago, a situation happened where I was thrown right into victimhood. I was right into, oh, this is never going to change, and I am so frustrated. But I was able to get out of it really quickly. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: And even though sometimes those emotions still stay, I can keep self checking, going, nope. What can I do today? I can go on a walk. What can I do today? I can take a breath and assure myself that it is going to be all right. Because I am not in control of everything, but I am in control of me. I am in control of how I feel. I am in control of, control is the right word, but I can choose my thoughts. Amy Updike: I can choose to rephrase things. I choose to feel Audrey Rindlisbacher: It does not, does it? Amy Updike: Yeah. Audrey Rindlisbacher: It does feel like you are in control because you are living intentionally and you are determining who you are going to be today. How are you going to show up today? Audrey Rindlisbacher: We talk about this in the Academy quite a bit, that we can choose to entertain certain thoughts and the thoughts that we entertain determine the emotions that we feel. And that is at least part of the equation that I hear you saying, is that you have retrained the way that you think through the lens of principles, but through other tools as well. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And now you are living much more intentionally from that tiny seed of thought choice all the way through to these hard conversations that you are having with your family. And that does make you feel more in control. Because you talked about before how you would wake up and make a commitment to yourself that you were not going to get angry and you were not going to do this or that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And yet so often, several years ago, you would give in to that anger because you did not have the tools, you did not have the principles, you did not have a better plan. You did not understand what was at the root of it. There is a really famous quote, I think it is Henry David Thoreau, that I love a lot and have been using a lot lately. Audrey Rindlisbacher: He says, for every thousand that are hacking at the branches of evil or the leaves of evil, something like that, there is only one hacking at the root. And that is something that I really wanted the MDM Academy to give moms, was to get to the root. These are all of the symptoms. This is the environment. This is what I am swimming in. But what is really at the heart of that? Audrey Rindlisbacher: And in all of those self leadership sections, the titles of those sections are increasing my personal power. Would you say that you feel more powerful now? Would that be a term you would use for yourself? Amy Updike: Absolutely. Getting to the Root Amy Updike: And I love that idea of hitting at the roots, because like I mentioned before, I have spent so much time reading self help books and I have gone to therapy about different issues in my life, and they, it was more like they would help. Oh, what does Covey call it? He calls it the behaviors Audrey Rindlisbacher: The quadrant? No, like the behaviors versus the internal team personality and Amy Updike: character ethic. Audrey Rindlisbacher: So Covey talks about the personality Amy Updike: versus the Audrey Rindlisbacher: character ethic. You just said it. Amy Updike: Okay. So Covey talks about the personality versus the character ethic. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And I felt like I spent so much time just trying to do the things that would fix it. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So many times trying to find that one skill that would change it. Amy Updike: And sure, those techniques do make a difference on the surface, but it does not change the root, the core problem. And in me, the core problem was a feeling of insecurity, a feeling of not being of value. It stems from some childhood trauma. It stems from just different beliefs about myself. But recognizing who I really am has changed it all. Amy Updike: And recognizing my power to have influence over my family, which sounds power hungry. It is not. But the creator mindset, that I can create a home of peace and not just do it out of, okay, I am going to count to 10, which is a good skill. It is a good skill. But is it not better when you stop and say, okay, why am I angry? Amy Updike: I am angry because I am embarrassed that this child is going out in public looking this way, and they do not have their shoes on. So rather than freaking out that they do not have their shoes on and screaming at them, I can stop and recognize this is about me. Amy Updike: This is about Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: me feeling embarrassed. Audrey Rindlisbacher: So often, almost all the time, there is something that you can do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: Just changing that dialogue in your head makes all the difference in the world to actually what comes out. So many of these skills really have changed my behavior and changed how I think and who I am, my character. And it is not just the videos and the quizzes, which are great. And I have learned a lot from them. Absolutely. I have also just loved diving deep into all of the classics and how every book I read now I can find a principle in it and I can find a way to Amy Updike: bring it into my heart and recognize truths or untruths. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Principles are so fun once you start to recognize them because you see them in movies and it starts to spoil movies for you and you see them in, sorry, the sun is coming in. Amy Updike: Hey baby. Sorry, I am in a recorded interview, so I am going to wait for you to leave the room and then I am going to finish what I am going to say. Amy Updike: Okay. What was I saying? Audrey Rindlisbacher: How you can find principles as you read books and you can find them in movies and other things like that. Principles in Voting, News, and Daily Life Amy Updike: So looking for principles in these books and movies is so fun. And I also have found that I can look for principles or broken principles in the ballot when I am voting. Amy Updike: And that has changed the way I vote. It has changed the way I look at articles or things that are going on in the Supreme Court or things that are going on in current events. I can look back and say, okay, what is the principle? What is this person really arguing? What is this person really thinking? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Is there something we can agree on? Amy Updike: And where? It has just created so much peace in my life that I do not fly off on the winds of whatever crazy thing is happening. And things happen all the time in the world and in my home. So it just allows me to have way more peace and confidence and control and love. Audrey Rindlisbacher: That is beautiful. We have this training coming up, which everyone listening, I would love to invite you to come. I would love to have you there. And we are talking about how to stop feeling powerless and become the expert in your own life. And that means exactly what you are talking about, Amy, that you can go to other experts, you can read, go to the doctor, see a therapist, look up someone who is running for office, a candidate. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And at the end of the day, trust that your discernment, that the principles you have discovered, that your decisions about what all these other people are, all this advice that people are giving you, is that you can trust yourself to make those decisions, that you can trust yourself to be the expert about how you ought to move forward. Audrey Rindlisbacher: I heard a lot of that when you were talking about losing friendships as you tried to be principled. That just requires so much conviction and confidence and discernment, I think, to be able to say, this is the truth and I am going to stand on the truth. And I am sorry if you do not want to come there with me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And that is unfortunate and I will miss you. But that is who I am going to be, that is what I am going to do. Supporting Others While Choosing Differently Amy Updike: I feel like I want to clarify that experience a bit. It was also really, in the experience of choosing to start a new school and knowing that would hurt some people, the old school that I left, it was really important to me to recognize that they also were operating off of really good, wonderful principles. Amy Updike: And I understood what those principles were. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And it enabled me to think about how I could do things differently and yet recognize that we both were coming from a really good place and love and support them. And I have done my very best to support that school. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And all of those families. Amy Updike: And even though it personally pricked when a family would choose them over our school Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: and still do. There is still a lot of shuffling going on. Even though that happens, I still never react unkindly about it. I always am supportive because I, at my heart, understand even if someone chooses not to go to school at all and go back to public school, or they want to choose to start our school, I support them because the principle is that we as parents have the right to choose what our children, what education they get and how they are educated. We have that right. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And who am I to criticize or take away that truth from them? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And it is all good. We all should educate our children and each child needs something different and sometimes at different times in their lives. Amy Updike: So just understanding that principle and understanding that it is the application that differs changed my heart completely about it. And do not get me wrong, it still pricked sometimes. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: Just like I am sure it pricked for them when I made choices. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Sure. Amy Updike: But would it not be great if we all saw things that way and we said, okay, that is a different application. Amy Updike: I can support you in what you are doing and love you for what you are doing and not have it all be about me because it is not about me. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: It is about all of us trying to live the principles in the best application that works for our family at that time. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Yeah. That is awesome. I agree one hundred percent. Advice to Moms Audrey Rindlisbacher: So is there anything else that you would like to say to anyone listening? What would your advice be to moms that are out there thinking about joining the program or just wanting to navigate their lives better? Amy Updike: I will shut this curtain. It is starting to glare in my eyes. Amy Updike: I think I would say that there is nothing more important than what we are doing in our own homes and in our own hearts, and we need to make an investment into ourselves and into our families. And sometimes it takes a really big sacrifice, and it might feel like a big sacrifice, to commit to a program like this or do anything that you are doing to better yourself. Amy Updike: But there is nothing more important than what we do, than finding a way to improve our relationships, than finding peace in our hearts, than understanding how to navigate this terrifying world. And right now we need it more than ever. I am so grateful that I was exposed to this so long ago so that I had the skills to prepare me for when I really needed it the most. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: The last few years have brought some rough challenges. The passing of my mom and the way it happened was very difficult, to say the least. And having a child that is choosing something different than you ever dreamed for them is hard, and trying to love and understand them. And then I look around and I see so many people just ripped apart in their social groups, even in church, in their families, by the schism that is happening politically and all of the really difficult things that are happening and probably will keep happening. Amy Updike: And to be able to be secure in what you believe, to be able to be secure in how you act, and you have consciously chosen what that should be and you have practiced it and you are working on it and you are training yourself to respond in a respectful, loving way, who does that anymore? That can change everything. Amy Updike: It can change everything in your life. And it has, for me. It has made some of these experiences that could have been almost irreparable not just bearable, but some of my relationships are even stronger after. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: Because of knowing who I am, knowing what God’s will is, and knowing what the principles are in any of these situations, or that I know how to find a principle. It is a skill that gives me so much peace and confidence. Amy Updike: And I just would hope that women would recognize their power, that we have influence over so many people. And because of this I am now at a stage that not only am I secure in myself, and my family is operating well enough, I am working on that. But not only that, but I have been able to turn my focus outward to the community without sacrificing what is going on in my home. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So many times, as we learn about in the Mission Driven Mom, people turn outward first before they have their hearts and their lives in order. And it has been really beautiful being able to affect so many families in our community. Amy Updike: And I humbly, when families will come to me and say, I cannot believe how you do this. How do you do so much? How do you run this school? How did you start the school? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And first of all, I did not do it alone at all. It was a team. But it was because I was able to start with principles. I was able to start with a vision of what I wanted. And I was able to use those principles to gather people around me who wanted the same thing. And we have been able to make a really big impact in our little corner of the world. And that is all that matters. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. I, Amy Updike: I never will be known in the world and I do not care. As long as my friends and family and those people that I am in contact with are bettered because of my influence and that my life is better because of the principles I am choosing, what more matters? Amy Updike: I just love the opportunity to be able to have an impact on others. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And to be able to create a community that heals families and gives support and is a place that is safe for faith and a place that people learn and love. And it has been life changing to be able to see these kids. Amy Updike: We have incorporated the five questions into some of our classes, and they are getting there faster than I was. It has been beautiful to watch them go through the Academy and the changes that happen in their families because they are having an impact on their parents. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: I just wish that parents and families would recognize the power of doing both, of having the Mission Driven Mom in their home, but also having the Mission Driven Teen in their home because that has changed my kids quite a bit. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: Especially this one child I talked about that has made different choices. Even still, I can see him using those skills that we talked about years ago. I can see him stopping and trying to rephrase it and trying to see my point of view. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: It has been really powerful. So even though he has made different choices, these skills still have bettered our relationship and bettered our home life. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: So that has been really beautiful too. So I would encourage families to find it in their hearts to do both, to allow the kids this opportunity to change, but also how much more quickly can the culture of the family change? How much faster can we all practice the skills and get better if we are all learning it together? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: So that has been really fun to see families grow in character and grow in their relationships. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And in their confidence and peace. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Ordinary People Can Grow Into More Audrey Rindlisbacher: I want to ask you one last question just because on the back of the book, The Mission Driven Life, one of the things that I say, one of the things that is on there, is it talks about how I was searching out these great men and women that really I admired and I wanted to be like them. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And I was trying to crack the code of how they became those kinds of people. And these seven laws of life mission were the pathway for ordinary people to do extraordinary things. And I know that when women listen to someone like you and you are so polished and beautiful and professional and you are doing big things, that maybe they just cannot imagine ever getting to the point where you are. Audrey Rindlisbacher: I am just wondering, was there a time in your past when the person that you are now and the things that you do now and the influence that you make in your community would have felt impossible for you, that you would have never imagined that you could do the things that you do now? Amy Updike: Absolutely. In fact I have a dear friend who, I think it was the very first year I started homeschooling, she looked at me and said, you are going to have your own school one day. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Wow. Amy Updike: And I went, what are you talking about? I am just trying to get the kids out the door and teach my one class. What are you talking about? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And she has a gift for seeing the Audrey Rindlisbacher: the Amy Updike: potential in other people. But at that moment I was just thinking I can barely keep my dishes done. I am just trying not to scream at my kids in the morning and not use expletives trying to get them in the car. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh, we can laugh now, but it was not funny then. Amy Updike: And I would cry the whole way there because I am like, I cannot believe what I just said. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Oh. Amy Updike: But yeah, it is a growing process and so many people will say, I do not know how you homeschool. Like how do you do that? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: I could never do that. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: We can do way more than we think we can. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: And it is one baby step at a time. I just remember going to Walmart with four little kids and somebody looking at me going, how do you do that? I can barely handle the one. And I said, they do not come all at once. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: You grow with it. Amy Updike: Grow Audrey Rindlisbacher: into it. Yep. You grow, Amy Updike: your capacity grows. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yes. Amy Updike: And you learn so much through every experience. Every hard experience has taught me so much. Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. Amy Updike: And so every little baby step, and as long as we are practicing principles and as long as we are just striving, being self aware and just striving to be a little bit better, it does not even have to be every day. We take steps back, but just over time. Amy Updike: Yeah. As long as the trajectory is that we are able to do a little bit more each time, it is pretty incredible. And I bet you think that too. I look at you and I am just like, oh, how do you do what you do so much and raise your family? Audrey Rindlisbacher: Yeah. I just want women that are listening to know that if you are in that place where you are like, I never could, just do not sell yourself short. It is not true. You just do not know what you can do with the right tools, the right guidance, the right mentors, the right women around you, Amy Updike: Yeah. Audrey Rindlisbacher: and the right support systems and all of that kind of thing. Amy, you are amazing. I really am honored that you would come on today and share your story with us and be so honest and vulnerable and I really think you are just such an amazing woman. <h4>Closing Invitation</h4> Audrey Rindlisbacher: So grateful for you and for all that you do and the influence that you have and everything that you have shared today. And so for those listening, if you want to understand better the kinds of things that Amy has been talking about and understand how you could become more of an expert in your own life and what this thing called principles is and how they work and why they matter and how they could change your life, then I would invite you to click on the link in the description and register for this training that I am going to do. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And we are going to spend just an hour and a half together and I am going to walk you through some things that will get you jump started on this path and you will be able to start doing some of the things that Amy is talking about and have a window into how you really can become so much more than you think you can. Audrey Rindlisbacher: How you can solve your problems with truth, how the truth really will make you free. And more than that, you can learn who you really are and walk with confidence. Look at the kind of example that Amy is to her family and the confidence and conviction that she shows them. We are the heartbeat of the home and we represent motherhood and womanhood and adulthood. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And our example is everything. It is everything. And there is just no reason to wait one more day to learn how to overcome whatever is in your way and move forward. Be more of that example that you would want to be. So I would invite you to join us for that training that is coming up soon. I would love to see you there. Audrey Rindlisbacher: And Amy, thank you again for being here with us. You are incredible and I wish you and your school and your community and your family all the best and hope you continue to grow and have more success in the future. Amy Updike: Thank you so much. You are too kind. I do not feel like I am that great, but I really appreciate it.
EP 144 How Principles Prepared Her to Lead
In this episode, Audrey talks with MDM Academy graduate Cadie Hatch about homeschooling, higher education, classical learning, motherhood, and the journey that led her to help launch a classical charter school in her community. Cadie shares how her experience in the Academy showed her what principles are and how to use them, the confidence, and clarity she needed to lead, serve, and persevere through a difficult but deeply meaningful project. This conversation is a beautiful reminder that moms matter, education matters, and ordinary women can do extraordinary good in the world. RESOURCES The Poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher. I’m excited to be with you today. If you are new to the podcast, make sure and go back to the beginning. Listen to some of those early podcasts so you can learn about the seven laws of life, mission, and mission-driven stories, and all of those things, so you can have an understanding of what we do here at the Mission-Driven Mom and on this podcast. I’m joined today by Cadie Hatch. She is a dear friend and an MDM Academy graduate, and we get to dig into her experiences and learn a lot from her today. I’m really grateful to her for joining us and for being willing to share herself, her time, and her experiences. Cadie, welcome. Thank you for being here. Cadie: Thank you, Audrey. It has been a dream of mine to be on the podcast one day, so I’m excited. Audrey: There you go. Here we are, fulfilling dreams all the time. Cadie: Yeah. Audrey: Yeah. So tell us, just introduce yourself briefly. I’ll ask you more questions, we’ll dig into your story more. Tell us just a little bit about yourself. Cadie’s Background Cadie: Sure. So I was born and raised in New Mexico, and I have to say that because I feel like there’s not very many New Mexicans that you hear about. Audrey: So yes, that’s, you are very kind for sure. Cadie: So I am a New Mexican. I grew up in a home where I was the youngest of five children. My father was self-employed. He and his first cousin were business partners for their entire career. My dad was a logger, and he logged on the Mescalero Apache Indian Reservation near where we lived. And so with that we got a lot of really unique experiences as kids, the things that we got to do. We spent a lot of time out in the woods, and he was an avid hunter, sportsman, and he loved being out in the woods. And it was just great. He gave us an amazing childhood, which I’m very grateful for. My mother, she homeschooled us. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: My oldest brother, when he was going into eighth grade, my mom decided to pull everybody out and homeschool. That was the year that I would have gone into kindergarten. So I was homeschooled my entire K through 12 education. Audrey: What made her decide to do that? Do you know? Cadie: I think she was just, I want to do something different. I think I remember her saying a couple girls called my brother, and she was like, oh no, we’re not doing that. It’s way too early for that. Audrey: Oh, that’s funny. Cadie: So anyway, because of my dad’s work, we just had some really unique opportunities where the boys could go and they could work with him. Audrey: Oh. Cadie: And they were able to be out in the woods working with him and all of our extended family, and it was a really amazing opportunity for them. Audrey: Wow. To just gain some life skills in that way. And so I think if there was a theme for my life, like three things, it would probably really be faith, family, and education. Cadie: Because I think growing up as somebody who had been homeschooled and was used to doing things differently in terms of education, I have not been too put off by going my own route in education throughout my life. And I think that kind of really set me up for some of the things that I ended up doing as I became an adult and as I continued in my education. Early Adulthood and Meeting Her Husband Cadie: When I was younger, I got my GED when I was 16. Audrey: Oh wow. Cadie: And I ended up moving out a few months before I turned 18. I moved to Arizona and I went to a little community college in Arizona, and that’s where I ended up meeting my husband. I got my associate’s degree in business administration, and we met there and I just fell in love with him, almost like on first sight, which is so silly, but it’s true. One of the things that attracted me so much to him was his, I almost hesitate to use the word ambition because I feel like sometimes that can have this negative connotation of it’s all about me. But he was just a doer. I could see that in him when we would be walking across campus, and I would just watch the way that he walked. He was going somewhere. He had a plan. He always had a planner. He’s always been an avid goal setter. And so he sets these goals and he reaches these goals. And so I knew from pretty early on, when I first met him, that he was going to be doing things in his life. Life wouldn’t happen to him. He would be doing things. Audrey: Oh, that’s awesome. Cadie: And I really wanted to go with him and be part of that with him. And we met there at college. We were married, and it’s been an adventure ever since. We thought we would stay in Arizona, but we got a job opportunity that brought us up to northeastern Nevada. And we’ve been up here for about 12 years, almost 13 years. We thought that we would just be here for a little while and go back down to Arizona. But we’ve loved it so much. I just don’t know that we’ll ever leave. I love it up here. It’s been great. Life in Nevada and the Pumpkin Patch Audrey: And you are on some land. Cadie: We have a little, a small town. So we live, Elko is the main city. I mean, it’s not huge, but Elko is the bigger town, and we live about 20 miles outside of Elko. And so we’ve got about 10 acres. We moved to that property in 2020, and I was just thinking about this morning, when we moved, we thought, we’ve always just bought all of our furniture from yard sales. Let’s get, like, new furniture. Audrey: There you go. Cadie: That would be so exciting. We’re getting this new house, we’ll get new furniture. So we sold all of our furniture. We moved to our house in March of 2020, and the next week everything shut down and there was no furniture to be had. Audrey: I did not know that. That’s hilarious. Cadie: All we had was this giant overstuffed beanbag, and that was the one piece of furniture that we had in our living room that we would all just sit on. Audrey: Did you at least have beds? Cadie: We did have our beds. We did save our beds. So we had that. But we didn’t have a kitchen table, so we ended up yard saleing again and buying more yard sale furniture because you couldn’t get it from the furniture store, which was fine. Audrey: Wow. That’s hilarious. Cadie: But the thing also about moving to that property in 2020, and again, I think this kind of highlights Tim, my husband, as a doer, is that when we moved there, I knew he wanted to plant a garden, but I thought, oh, eventually, in a couple years we’ll plant a garden. Audrey: Yeah. Cadie: But we moved there in March and by June we had cleared off the property and we had put in an acre garden. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: And we planted, almost all of it was pumpkins. We had a few potatoes, but I think it was all pumpkins that first year, and he was so driven to get that done. And I couldn’t understand, like, why are you needing to plant this garden so much? Audrey: Yeah. Cadie: And he just kept saying to me, I just have a feeling that this garden, this will make people happy. That if they come out here, it will help people. They’ll just be happy when they come get pumpkins. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: And again, that was COVID. That was March 2020. Everything shut down. By the time we got to October, we hadn’t really met many people because our churches were closed at the time. Our communities, different things that we would normally do to get together with people, just weren’t happening. We didn’t really meet our neighbors. And so by October everybody was ready to get out of the house. And because it was outside, we could say, come over, and we just put a sign out on the field and said, come in, get a pumpkin, we’ll come and meet you. And that’s how we met most of our neighbors. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: And it was a really great experience, and it’s always been something that we’ve done as a thank you to the people who my husband works with in his business, his career. We’ve planted those pumpkins for the last four, we’ve done four out of the five years. Audrey: Wow. And that’s coming up. That’s this week, right? Didn’t you say that? Cadie: That’s this week. We are having our pumpkin patch. It’s early October. Audrey: So great. Discovering the Mission Driven Mom Audrey: All right, so let’s talk about your MDM journey. How you learned about what we do and what that looked like for you. So go back. Here you are, you’re a mom, you have a few children, and you were a full time mom, right, a stay at home mom? Cadie: Yes. Audrey: And starting to homeschool. Did you always know, was that always the plan? I’m going to get married, I’m going to have kids, and homeschool them? Cadie: Yeah, that was always my plan. I did tell Tim that when we get married, because he was in school, we were both in school, and I said, my goal, I want to be a stay at home mom. I really believe in the importance of moms at home with their kids. So I want to have kids, I want to stay home with my kids, and I want to homeschool because I was homeschooled. I loved it. I want to do that. And bless him, he went along with me. And how I ended up actually finding MDM is interesting. At the time my sister and I would talk a lot about books that we enjoyed, and I remember her saying, oh, you’ve got to read, you’ve got to go online to this website, Books You Love, or I don’t remember if it was a website. You were doing something called Books You Love. Audrey: Mm hmm. Cadie: And you were doing these book reviews. I think you did them with your kids, right? Audrey: Mm hmm. Cadie: Yeah. And I just remember, I was like, oh, all these cute little kids, these book reviews, like my dream, right? Like how cool. And so we would get on there, and what I appreciated about you at that point, I only had my associate’s degree, and again, that was in business administration. I had taken like one literature class during my associate’s degree time. And so I had read enough literature through that degree program to be like, every time they read a book, it’s just all about some kind of sexual revolution, right? Like, how are women being oppressed and that they needed to be liberated through their sexuality. Every story that we read, and I would read some of these, I’m like, I really don’t think that’s what this story is about. And they were like, no, no, it is. This is what it’s about. And so I was like, okay. So when I read the books that you were suggesting in Books You Love, you had a way of reading the books that was so much more authentic to what I felt the author’s actual intent was. And when I would leave there, I felt, I would read something and I would come away feeling noble, like I was a better person for having read that. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: Even if it was something that I didn’t agree with, like the author may have said some things I didn’t agree on, I still felt like I came away a better person because I had learned something from you and how you had read that book. Audrey: Oh, that’s great. Why Her College Degree Disappointed Her Cadie: At that point, I think I had three kids when I would read Books You Love. And we got busy and life just got away from us, and so I got away from what you were doing. But every once in a while I think I would check back in because I just had this thought, one day she’s going to have a school or something, and I just want to go to her school. That would be so great. So in the meantime, I have to admit here, when my husband was getting his bachelor’s degree, I was not a very supportive wife. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: This goes back to this idea of me being, my dad was an entrepreneur, I was a homeschooled kid. If you wanted to go the college route, that’s fine, but if you don’t want to go the college route, you can start a business, that’s fine too. And so when my husband was getting his bachelor’s degree, there were just times when it was really hard, and when it would get really hard, he’d be like, I don’t want to do this right now. And I’d say, you don’t have to. We’ll just go start a business. It’s fine. Audrey: Yeah. Cadie: And so he was like, that is not helping me in this moment. And I’m like, but really, we could, you don’t have to do this. We could do something else. And so I regret that. I do regret that I was not more supportive of him in getting his bachelor’s degree. So what ended up happening was years later he wanted to go back for his master’s. And he had always known he wanted a master’s degree. And so he told me, I feel like now is a good time for me to go back for my master’s degree, and I feel like if you were getting your bachelor’s degree, it might go better than last time. Maybe you’d be more supportive. Audrey: Oh, funny. Cadie: So I was like, fine, sure. I’ll go get my bachelor’s degree. So at that point, my husband is getting his master’s, I’m getting my bachelor’s, I think I had a second grader, a kindergartner, and two toddlers. Audrey: Wow. Cadie: And we went back to school, and he got his master’s degree and I got my bachelor’s degree. Audrey: How did you do it? What did you do with kids and how did you afford it? Cadie: Yeah. We are very blessed that he has a really great job that has been a blessing to our family. And so we were able to afford it. We were able to just manage it with his income. And then with the kids, it was one of those things I was like, I haven’t been sleeping for years anyway, so now that the baby is sleeping, why sleep now? Audrey: Yeah. Cadie: The baby is sleeping through the night, so I can get a solid six hours, and then if I get up at five, I can study for an hour or two before the kids wake up. And then we can just go with the rest of the day. And that’s how it went for a while. A lot of early mornings and late nights probably got us through that. And it was a really good experience. I’m really glad that I went back and got my bachelor’s degree. I got my degree in English language and literature. So now this time everything that I was doing was reading. And I had such high hopes. Oh, we’re going to read some Shakespeare. I’m going to read some of the greats. This is going to be amazing. I’m so excited. That’s what I wanted. I wanted to read some really good classics and have great conversations. Audrey: Yeah. Cadie: And that is not what happened at all. So I was highly disappointed in the education that I got for my actual degree. One of the things that was really, preached maybe is not the best word, but it seems like the most fitting word to use, one of the ideas that was most heavily preached to us as students was postmodernism. Everything was falling apart. Humanity was awful. There was nothing that was going to get any better. So it was just, do whatever you have to do to survive and get yourself on top. That’s the goal. Audrey: And there’s nothing that’s objectively true. Cadie: No. And you could argue, just do whatever works. And so when we would read books together, we were told never to go back and look at the author, never to research the author, or to consider the time in which that person lived, but just to take the book, open it up, and just start shredding it. Deconstruction was the thing. Just deconstruct, deconstruct. And so any bit of beauty that was ever in this book or intended to be in the book was gone. Audrey: Yeah. Wow. Cadie: And it was soul searing. It was a horrible way to go through reading books. I felt awful about myself. I felt awful about the world. I would look at things that my fellow students would say in these forums, these conversations that we would have, and it was just heartbreaking to see that any argument always came down to men are evil, white people are awful, and every system is designed to make you fail. And I just didn’t believe that. But you surround yourself with that for two years and it just starts to eat into your psyche. It’s very degrading. How She Found Audrey Again Cadie: And so I remember at one point I had completely forgotten about you, Audrey. I’m sorry, but I totally forgot about you during this time. Audrey: That’s perfectly fine. That’s funny. Cadie: But I had forgotten I had read with you until we read a play, A Doll’s House. Audrey: A Doll’s House. Yeah. I can’t remember the author. Do you remember the author? Cadie: I had it written down. Audrey: Oh, Henrik Ibsen. Cadie: Ibsen. That’s right. So we read the play A Doll’s House by Henrik Ibsen, and I remembered, oh my gosh, I remember this play because I read it with that lady Audrey in Books You’ll Love. And so at that point I was maybe six months away from finishing my degree, and it’s like, I’ve got to go see what that lady said about Ibsen and A Doll’s House. Surely it got better than this sludge that I’m working through with this college class. This is just terrible. So I went back and I found Books You’ll Love, and by that point you had started The Mission Driven Mom and it was just getting going. So I found some of the information I was looking for about Ibsen, and then I told my husband, when I finish this degree, I really want to go and study with Audrey. I want to go to her online academy. And he was much more supportive of me and was like, if that’s what you want to do, we can make that happen. And I graduated in April of 2020 and I think I started with you in May of 2020 at the Mission Driven Mom. And that was a very eye opening experience because it was all those things I thought that I was going to get in my degree program, but it was not at the college, it was at your academy. I was like, we’re reading great books, I feel really good about what I’m reading, I come away ennobled, these authors are being honored for the good work that they have done, or we are looking at the things that they have written that are not correct and we’re able to objectively see why they are wrong. But I am coming away a better person after having experienced these books. And so that was, it’s a long story, but it took several years, and eventually I made my way back to MDM. What Level One Gave Her Audrey: Yeah. So you were in it for the more intellectual piece, the academic, the reading. So with that expectation, did you feel disappointed that there were some children’s novels or that we vet the content so much and it’s just selections from different books? Or how did you feel about that? Cadie: No, actually in a lot of ways I appreciated it because I could see that you were trying to hone a skill. Like you were trying to give me a specific skill. And when I went through level one, I’m not sure how things are now, but when I went through level one, things were much more self paced. And I had an accountability partner, the most amazing lady. I loved my accountability partner going through level one. She did me so many great services. We would reach out to each other about once a month or once every two weeks and say, here’s our goal. We want to get through this much of the workbook. At the time there was a workbook that we had. So we want to get through this much of the workbook and the readings, and then we’re going to call each other and see how it went. And the two of us together, you had a celebration coming up that fall, and we wanted to finish before the celebration so that we could come. Audrey: That is pretty fast. Cadie: We went through it pretty fast. I want to say it was six months, somewhere in there. But I was so glad that we did because I felt like we were laser focused on, this is the skill that we’re trying to learn. These are the principles that we’re learning. This is how we’re implementing them. And it was a great blessing. And I think part of that came because I had just come out of my degree where I was used to having some deadlines, and I had already worked my schedule out with my family. That helped me be able to accomplish that goal so quickly. Audrey: Yeah. So what are a couple of your takeaways from level one? Cadie: You had created a card, there was a card that you had given out at one of the celebrations, but you had also created the 12 characteristics of a true principle. And that has stuck with me. I used that often. I used it very regularly, especially at that time. I still pull it out and use it and look at it to try to figure out, is this thing that I’m studying right now, is this a true principle? The main characteristic that has stuck with me is the win win. Is the thing that I’m doing right now creating a win win situation for everyone? If it’s not a win for everybody, then it’s not done yet. I have to keep working until everybody has won and feels good about it. And the other thing that was a huge takeaway from level one was your willing versus willful lesson. You compared C S Lewis to Nietzsche, and I have listened to that one probably a couple times a year because it made such an impact on me. This idea of, are you willing to let go of the things that you want, let go of the way that you think things need to be, to let God take over and move you where you need to be? Are you willing or are you willful? I had never considered my attitude in that way. Is this a willing attitude that I have right now, or is this a willful attitude? That made a huge impact on me, and it is something that I still think about regularly when I feel like I have a decision to make and I do not necessarily know which way to go. I think often about, am I being willing or willful right now? Why Principles Mattered So Much Audrey: So what do you think about the whole emphasis on principles? Why do you feel like that matters? Cadie: Interestingly, I remember for years something had been niggling at me in the corner of my mind, and it was like, I do not understand when people say this word principle. I do not understand what they mean. Sometimes I hear a principle and it is just a one word thing, like forgiveness might be a principle, or service might be a principle. And then other people would say something and it would be this big long phrase and that was a principle, and it was like, I do not understand. Help me understand. What are we talking about? And when I went back to MDM and I saw that principles was such a heavy emphasis in the academy, I was like, this is the thing that I need because I do not understand what people are talking about when they are talking about principles. I feel like they are important, but I do not know what they are. And so it helped me so much to come into MDM and start studying, looking for principles in the things that I read. And the principles being, what is a truth that is in this book, whether it is fiction, nonfiction, biography, whatever. What is a truth that I can find here that I can then take into my life and apply to my circumstances that will make my life or my family’s life better? And the fact that we practiced that across so many genres of literature was really valuable to me. The Princess and the Pea Example Cadie: Fairytales have been something that I have been thinking about recently because I have been listening to someone who is talking about C S Lewis and Tolkien as myth writers. They were great at telling story through myth. How we have this idea that a myth is a lie, but really they would say a myth is a way of telling the truth that is different than any other way of being able to tell the truth. And so I think about that with fairytales. Fairytales tell a truth that is hard to convey in any other way. I was thinking about this with The Princess and the Pea. We were just talking about it the other day, me and my husband. I will give you an example maybe of what it was like to read something like that from my degree perspective. You have this queen. Her son, the prince, is wanting to marry this princess. And so she puts her through this test where she puts the pea underneath all of these mattresses and she wants to know, can this princess feel if there is a pea underneath all of these mattresses. And the princess wakes up the next morning and she is all black and blue and she says, I have been all beat up. There is something underneath my mattresses. And the queen says, oh, you really are a princess because you could feel that pea underneath all those mattresses. A lot of people would be like, this is the most ridiculous story. This girl is such a wuss. She is full of drama. She is not someone you would want to have marry your son. But if you look at it through the lens of myth, and that it is telling the truth, if the princess, her role in a fairytale is to be the virtue, she is the symbol of virtue. She is the symbol of what is good. Her job is to be the compass for everybody else to know what is right and what is wrong. And this pea that is underneath these mattresses is something that is wrong. It is something that is bad, and she can sense it. Even underneath all those layers of comfort, she can sense that something is wrong. And so this test that the queen puts her through to see if she is a good match for the prince, the prince’s job is to defend all of that truth. He cannot defend it if he does not have the compass to point him to what is good and what is wrong. There is an equal match between a prince and a princess, and they each have their job. That is a myth to teach us about the roles of men and women. They each have a really important role, and it is okay that they have a different role. So the woman’s role, she points to what is virtuous, what is good, and the man’s role is to defend that. And we need each other. And so that idea of, okay, I just learned a principle from The Princess and the Pea. There is a principle here about, are there gender roles? I think there are. And should we notice them? Should we give them any credence, any credibility? I think we should. How do I apply this in my life? I know what my role is in my marriage. My job is to seek out virtue and to notice when it is around and to notice when it is not there, and to be this compass for my family. That is my job. And so I have to be careful about the things that I take into my mind. I have to be careful about the things that I think about, that I dwell on, because my role is to help us discern what is good and what is virtuous. Audrey: Wow, that is so beautiful. How Level Two and Level Three Changed Her Audrey: Tell us a little bit about building a principle centered home and life. What difference has it made for you to have this understanding about principles and this ability to discern them better? How has it changed things for you and your family? Cadie: When we were in level two, we read The Ox Bow Incident, and that book had a really great impact on me, partly because of when we were reading it. It is about cattle rustling, and some cows have been stolen and this town has been having problems with rustlers for a while. And so they mount up a posse and they go and they find the guy that rustled these cattle and they administer justice, in their own idea. And I do not want to spoil the book for people, because it is a fantastic book. But when I read that book, we were discussing mob mentality. And I think January 6th had just happened like a couple of weeks before. We had just seen a bunch of riots happening all across the country during that summer of COVID and all of those things. We had seen a lot of mob mentality happening in real life. And so I have my book and I went to the back and I wrote down, I found 11 characteristics of a mob. And when I saw what the characteristics of a mob were, I started to really check myself when I would start feeling very passionate about something, because mobs are always very passionate. Passion is not a bad thing, but it is all about how are we directing it, and are we allowing our passion for something to turn off our ability to think and to be objective and to search for truth first. I think to a degree it comes back to what I was saying about being this compass within your family. I think women are the compass of the family. And so we have to watch where our passions lead us. Those passions are important. They are valuable. We need them. But we need to make sure that we are directing them in the proper place. As far as things that we read in level three that really helped me, human action laws. Talking about the human action laws, which basically was just understanding that everybody does what they are doing for a reason. You may not agree with the reason, you may not like the reason, but they are not just out of control acting. People do things on purpose for a reason. They are motivated by something. Every action is motivated by something. And when I learned about that and the human action laws, it helped me understand that I need to build better bridges with people. That people can have a difference of belief or a difference of opinion than what I have, but there is something driving that and motivating that, and I need to try to understand what that is. And it helps me have greater compassion for other people and to connect with them more. It helps me to recognize, this is a person who at the very base of themselves is probably acting because they have heard some principle, some truth, that is motivating them to act, but that truth has been twisted in some way. So how can I get back to understanding that they are motivated by some truth somewhere back in there. Something is motivating them. Where is it that we finally meet? What is the truth that they are acting on, that if it is a truth, then I should be willing to act on as well? How do we get all the way back to that first principle so that then we can build off of the first principle and come to a position that will work for all of us, that will give us that win win situation? That was pretty huge for me in level three. Her Charter School Project Audrey: Talk to us about what you have done since MDM, this big major project, your C to B that you were involved with. How did you get involved? Why did you get involved? How did the education you had had make a difference? And where is the project now? Cadie: It is a pretty incredible story. I feel like a very miraculous story, and my involvement in it at all still feels miraculous, that I was even a part of it. So the project that I took on, I think it happened because I asked God for it. We were reading the book Christie. It is about this girl, 19 or 20 years old, and she goes up into the Appalachian Mountains and she teaches school to some people up there, and it is an incredible story. In some ways it reminded me somewhat of this area that I live in. Because where I live, we are pretty rural. We have a lot of ranching families, and for many of those families, for their kids to be able to go to high school, it can often mean that they have to move away and live in town for those four years of high school. And I had just talked to somebody who was saying, our oldest is getting to the point where we are needing to decide, are we going to keep her out here with us on the ranch and kind of homeschool through that experience, or are we going to send her to live with some friends in town? That happens pretty regularly for these families. And it just reminded me a little bit of the people in the book Christie. And I just fell in love with this idea of having a school, and I really wanted to have a school that promoted virtue and goodness in the students. And so I had just been thinking about Christie for a long time. And a lot of things happened in 2020. It was the Christmas of 2020. I stumbled upon Hillsdale College K through 12 schools. I just came across it on my phone, and I saw that and I was like, that would be cool if we could start a little charter school. And so I emailed them and I said, can you tell me what it would look like? What do I need to do to start one of these schools? And the list they sent back was gargantuan, and I was like, that is not going to happen. I knew one person in my community who had started a charter school, and I sent her that list as a gag. If you ever wanted to start another charter school, here is one we could do. And she was like, yeah, that is funny. And time passed, things moved on, and two years later she reached out to me and said, hey, did you know that there was a group of people from Elko that went and toured a Hillsdale school in Idaho? Were you part of that group? And I said, no, I had no idea that anyone was going to tour a Hillsdale school in Idaho. I totally would have gone. And she said, here is a contact for this group. Maybe you could reach out and just see what they have to say. So I called the number she gave me. I got an answering machine and I left a message. And while I was waiting to get a call back from this person, I learned a little bit more about who he was and his political career in Nevada and that he had run against Harry Reid. And I was like, this guy will never call me back. He is an important person. What was I thinking? And probably about a week after that, I was sitting in my living room doing morning time with my kids. We were reading a story, and I get a call back from this man. And I ran into my bathroom because that was the only quiet place I could find. And I answered the phone and he said, I am so glad you called. We would love to have your help. Go to this place at this time, get the information for our next meeting, and we will meet you there. And I said, okay. And so when I went into that first board meeting, I only knew one other person in the room and there were probably about 12 people. These were all various people from our community who had done incredible things. We had county commissioners, people who owned businesses, people who had made a career in education. These were people who had a lot of influence and a lot of background in what we were doing. And every meeting for the first six months, I walked in just scared to death because I was like, I have no idea what we are even doing really, or talking about, but I am just going to keep showing up. And I learned so much about the process of what it would be to start a charter school. I was very ignorant. When we first started, I was like, six months, we will get this thing open in six months. It will be great. And again, I learned quite a bit. It took us two and a half years to finally get the charter school open, and it just opened a couple months ago, August of 2025. That is why I say to me, it is very miraculous that I even was involved in this group and was in the room at all. But I truly think it happened because I asked God, I want a school. I really want a school that teaches kids about virtue. I have seen what postmodernism does in education. This is a horrible thing. I do not want children growing up with this. Can we get a school that teaches virtue? And my role on the school board for the charter school was, I had the most experience at the time with classical education and children because I had classically educated my children their entire education. And so I could speak to the more classical elements of what a Hillsdale K through 12 charter school was intended to be. And so I could help inform on that level what was going on. It became my role over time, and everybody on the board did everything, everybody was pitching in wherever they could, but generally my role was to do some of the community relations, public relations. I did several interviews on the radio here locally with another one of our board members. We did community events where we would try to educate the community on what a classical charter school was and what that meant. And I was also the liaison between our charter school board and our public school district board. And it was an incredible experience. The Resume Story and the Value of Motherhood Cadie: One of the things that I know we talk about a lot at the academy is when you have something that you are wanting to do, take your family with you. Have your family be involved in the mission work that you are doing. And I have to tell you this story because it is an important story. I struggled a lot with not feeling very qualified to be part of this board. And I remember we were turning in an application and we needed to have everybody’s resume on the board, and I was like, I do not have a resume. I have little kids. I am a stay at home mom. I do not have a resume. And I was really having a freak out moment over this stupid resume. It feels dumb now when I look back at it, but at the time it was a big deal to me. And I remember saying to myself over and over again, you are not a professional. I am not a professional. I do not have anything to put on here to convince anyone why I should be on this board. I have no experience that is meaningful to anybody. And I remember praying about it that night and asking God, what am I supposed to do? I am freaking out here about this stupid application. And I remember the answer that I got was, I did not make you to be a professional. And I was surprised. That took me back, and I was like, I feel like I need that right now though. And so in the months that came, we held a community event where we had basically a big information meeting for anybody in the community who would want to come and learn about this school. We had a gentleman who was very gracious, who was running a Hillsdale school. He was the principal of a Hillsdale school. He was willing to come and speak to our community and tell them about, this is the school that we have in Idaho, this is how it is going, you could have the same thing in Elko. And as we were putting together the program, the board asked if there was a student who would be willing to recite a poem at this meeting. And I was like, that is me. I am the one with the students. So I went home and I asked my son, he was 12 at the time, would you be willing to memorize a poem to recite at this meeting? And he was like, I guess. He does not like memorizing things, but I was like, could you just, it would be great. And so he memorized the poem If by Rudyard Kipling. Audrey: So good. Cadie: It is such a great poem. And he had been working on it and he just could not say it correctly when we practiced. He could not get through it without messing up a little bit. And so he was nervous when it came time for him to get up and give that poem. And I told him, you are going to be great. It is going to be fine. You have got this. And he went up there and he had never said that poem so well. He did not make a single mistake. There were like 80 people in there watching him, and he got up and said that poem and it was excellent. He did so well. I was so proud of him. And when our speaker got up to talk about the schools, he stopped and he said, but wait, I want to tell that boy what a good job he did on that poem. He said, we have kids memorize that poem in our school, and it is a requirement that they pass off that poem. And he said, that was one of the best recitations I have heard of that poem. You did such a great job. And so at the end I went up to meet him, and I had my little lanyard on with my little name tag that said board member. And I walked up to him and I was there with my son, and he complimented my son again, and then he looked at me and he said, you are the mom, aren’t you? And I said, yes, I am the mom. I am not the professional. I am not the board member. I am the mom. This is my job. And it was such an incredible experience to me of the value of being a mother. This project, this school, was valuable and important to me, but that was not my job. I was not made to be a professional. I was made to be the mom. And moms have such a power for good in this world. And I loved that when I came to MDM, MDM celebrated moms. It gave me an opportunity to do this big project that was something I never would have done without MDM. But first it helped me understand, you have an important role to play as a mom. That it should not be undervalued, and you should not undercut yourself because you are just the mom. Like moms are really important, and they are the ones that get a lot of the great things done. They are the compass for the home. And nowhere else was I hearing this. My degree was not going to tell me that I was valuable to the community, to society as a whole, because I was a mother. No one else was saying that. And so to come to a place where I could study and feel so much value in what I wanted, my dream was to be a stay at home homeschool mom, and it helped me be better at that. And then to go on and do some other things, which I am very proud of my school, I love it. I love being there. My kids and I go now, we volunteer, we go in on Tuesdays and we spend a couple hours every Tuesday at the school helping the little kids. And I love it. It is great. But my kids are with me when I do it. And they are my focus at this time in my life. And I am really grateful for that because there are times and seasons, it is not always going to be this way. But I did not leave them behind to fulfill some big project that I wanted to do. They came with me and they were a part of it with me the whole time. And so has my husband. It has been a family affair, and it has been great. What the Project Did for Her Personally Audrey: How do you feel that committing to that project and seeing it through, what did it do for you personally? Cadie: I think one of the things that I learned about myself through that project was that if the Lord asked me to do something, I would say yes. Even if it was hard. That school was extremely difficult. There were moments that were very exhausting and hard, and it was just perseverance over and over again. We would try, we would try, we would try. We met with a lot of rejection, especially at the beginning. We met with plenty of pushback. Some people were very concerned about what a classical school would mean and what it would look like. And so it had to be learning how to communicate with people that you did not agree with. And I am still not great at it. I wish I were better, but it gave me a lot of opportunity to practice. But ultimately what I learned about myself is, if the Lord asks me to do something, I will do it. And I know I said that I asked for that school, but I asked at the beginning. By the end, he was asking me to finish, because I did not want to finish. It was hard. But with him, I was able to stick it through and we were able to finish and we were able to get the school to opening. We are still early on and we are still a growing organization. We still have a lot to learn, but I am so grateful that when the kids come in, they have a place to come where they are being taught to be honest, to persevere, to serve each other, to finish their work. They can do this. They can do hard things. And they are told that all the time when they come in. You can do hard things. We believe in you. We encourage you. Be courteous. Be kind to the people around you. It feels good to be in a space like that. But ultimately, how did that school change me? It was to know that I really can do all things through Christ. Audrey: That is beautiful. I think it is so ironic too, that it is such an open handed gift of servant leadership because your children will not even ever attend it. Cadie: Yeah, that is true. At the beginning I thought that they would be able to attend, but over time we realized that in order to open and to be financially solvent through these beginning years, the school would have to open as a kindergarten through third grade only and add one grade level every year. And all of my kids were past third grade. So we are continuing to homeschool, but I love having them come with me when we go volunteer in the school. It is a great opportunity. Cadie’s Encouragement to Moms Audrey: What would you want to say to moms out there who might be listening? Cadie: For anyone who is listening, I would say, as women we have an incredible influence on the lives around us, and I do not think we realize how big that influence is. I still do not really realize how big my influence is and often struggle with really considering that I have much of an influence. But I know that it is there. It is not unlike the story that I told you about The Princess and the Pea. As the women, our role is to find goodness and virtue and to point it out. If I could give any encouragement to women in general, it would be guard your marriages. Keep that relationship sacred. Respect it. Show respect to your husband, and be grateful for the support that he lends to you, and lend him support. Because marriages that fail really impact your children so much. So if you want to have a really positive impact for your children, guard your marriage. Show your kids what a healthy and happy marriage looks like, and give them that gift. Why She Recommends MDM Audrey: What is the last thing you would say to anyone who is considering the academy or coming to the event, getting involved in some way with the programs at the Mission Driven Mom? Cadie: I would have to say, again, I have had a lot of different educational experiences. I was the homeschooled kid. I was someone who has gone to college. I have helped with a charter school. I am all about education, wherever you can get education. What I would say about MDM is, I never got a better education anywhere than in the time that I spent studying at MDM. That was the most foundational in helping me realize the good that I could do in the world. And when I graduated from college, I had this belief that when I graduated I would feel competent, like I could go out and do something in my community. And that did not happen. If anything, it was the exact opposite of that. I felt like I did not have any tools to be able to serve people. Even if I were to get a job teaching in the literature department, I did not feel like I had the tools to do that. MDM is an online academy. You are not going to get an accredited degree from there. But if you want an actual, true, solid education, go to MDM, because you will finish and you will feel that you can go out and do some good in the world. And I would never have taken on the charter school if I had not done MDM first. I would never have done it. Because I had some of that background that helped guide me in knowing where I could find true principles. I knew that I could find principles of education that would help guide what the school would be. I knew I could find principles of relationships that would help guide my marriage to be the best that it could be. I got actionable tools that helped me to live a great life. And so if you are wanting a good education, it is not always about the career at the end. Sometimes it is just being educated in how to live well. And I think MDM does that so well for moms. And I just love and appreciate you, Audrey, for what you gave me because that was what the academy did for me. And I am so grateful because I know it has not been an easy road for you either to keep this up and going. And it is a huge gift and a huge blessing to have been a part of it. And I just want to thank you for that. Audrey: Oh, thank you. Yes, you are right, it has not all been easy, but such a joy. I have met some of the most incredible people in my life, you included. And it is a joy and a privilege. It is just like your experience with the charter school, there are highs and lows, but looking back, boy, so glad you did it. Cadie: Yeah. Audrey: So glad you did it. Absolutely. And you come out of it such a different person. So thank you, Cadie, so much for everything that you have shared. You are such an inspiration. I hope that moms will take to heart what you have said and really understand their incredible worth and the need that the world has for them to rise to the occasion in their motherhood and be the best mothers and wives they can be. It is so critical for all of us. So anyway, such a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for being with us. Cadie: Thank you, Audrey. It was great. I appreciate it. Love you, friend. Audrey: You too. If you want, I can turn this into a polished downloadable document next.
EP 143 Leading Your Family with Principles
We are living in a confusing culture. As mothers, we feel the weight of it in a unique way because we are not just navigating it for ourselves. We are leading children who will inherit whatever kind of world we help build. If you have ever wondered how to lead your family with confidence when everything feels unstable, this episode is for you. In this conversation, we unpack: Why we are living in what Robert Greenleaf called an age of the anti-leader The leadership vacuum in our culture and why education is not preparing people to lead or follow wisely Why the real enemy is not evil people or broken systems but fuzzy thinking How your home is a small society and you are already leading it Listen to episode 143 of The Mission Driven Mom Podcast, “Leading Your Family with Principles” here or wherever you listen to your podcasts. ______________________________________________________________ Introduction Welcome back to the podcast. I amAudrey Rindlisbacher, author of the Mission Driven Life and founder of the Mission Driven Mom. Now you and I both know that we are living in a very confusing, contradictory culture, and that mothers especially feel the weight of that every day because we are not only taking on the job of mothering, and we do not just have that responsibility going on, but we have the weight of what we were not given educationally and the perceptions that are out there about mothers in the culture. The feminist movement and all the other things, besides which it is declining, and all the things. And so if you have ever wondered, like I have so many times, how you are supposed to lead your family with confidence when everything is unstable, then this episode is going to be for you. We are going to dive into that. Moms Want a Better World Now, I have said this before. I am going to say it again. We as moms want a better world. Now, maybe everybody does, but we have this special string connected to us called our child, and that child is going to inherit the world that we leave behind. And so we feel an added measure of responsibility and motivation to try to make the world a better place. We know that this is a confusing culture, and we know that it lacks proper leadership, and that is one of the major problems. We are struggling to navigate it. We worry about what is going on and how to build the good society, and leadership is a big part of that. I want to talk to you for a minute today about some things that several individuals said about the concept of servant leadership, how servant leadership is lacking, why it is lacking, why it is the answer, and what you and I can do about it. Robert Greenleaf and the Crisis of Leadership As moms, Robert Greenleaf was a huge mover in this kind of modern day movement of bringing back this concept of servant leadership. He had an organization and one of the most popular books called Servant Leadership. He researched, it is the definitive book, you could say that, about this concept. And he defined the problem in a way that I find very ironic because it is the problem that I keep talking about, and he says it really well. He says, alas, we live in the age of the anti leader and our vast educational structure devotes very little care to nurturing leaders or to understanding followership. This is also something very fascinating that he focuses on in his book. We have a responsibility to be leaders, but also to be good followers and to be trained to know who to follow and how to follow them, and that both of those skills and abilities are necessary to have the kind of culture that we want. He says, if there is any influence, formal education seems to discourage such pursuits. Educators argue, especially, I believe, that such preparation is implicit in general education. So educators claim that they teach people leadership, but they actually do not. He says, if that is true, how can it be that we are in a crisis of leadership in which vast numbers of quote educated people make gross errors in choosing whose leadership to follow, and in which there is so little incentive for able and dedicated servants to take the risks of asserting leadership. If we really, in our educational systems, are teaching people how to be good followers and how to be servant leaders, then why are we in this conundrum today. His point is we are not doing that, and that is a key part of the problem. The conclusion I reach is that educators are avoiding the issue when they refuse to give the same care to the development of servant leaders as they do to doctors, lawyers, ministers, teachers, engineers, and scholars. And he is right. Leadership is one of the most important things. Leadership is everything. Leadership makes or breaks us, and it is a vital skillset that should be taken as seriously as a medical practice, or as judges and attorneys, or any other major ability that is trained in individuals. He continues. Even schools of administration give scant attention to servant leadership. I have spent a great deal of time and energy trying to persuade educators to accept the obligation, and I am certain that generally they recognize neither the obligation nor the opportunity. Thus far, in my experience, they appear unpersuadable. An occasional gifted teacher will take some initiative, but the institutions rarely sanction the effort. The outlook for better leadership in our leadership poor society is not encouraging. Amen. The Leadership Vacuum in Our Culture And that is at the root. We talked about this in one of the episodes recently about hacking at the branches or hacking at the root. Servant leadership, there is a vacuum. There is almost no good leadership out there. This is why servant leadership is a big chunk of like half of our focus in level three in the academy, because it is a skillset we desperately need. This is a problem. We see this problem. If we were going to say, we look out on our society, we look at the nonsense going on social media, we see all of the, look, I try to go to the movies and I look at what is in the theater and over half of it just looks like junk. It just looks like, why. It is not going to lift me, it is not going to elevate me. It is probably not going to teach me anything. Now, maybe I am making too quick a judgment and maybe there is more that I can gain from some of these things that I turn away from. But frankly, there is much in our society that is not worth consuming, and there is much that gets put out in the name of entertainment that good leadership would quell. We need people in all industries, in all parts of society, leading us closer to truth and goodness and beauty, infusing virtue back into our culture, if that is the kind of culture that we long for. And as mothers, we have a part. We have a very important role to play in this. You Are Not Powerless And I know that we often sit at home and feel powerless and think society is what it is, and I am not a leader and I am never going to be one, and I am not going to hold the reins of government, so there is nothing I can do. And actually, we can do everything. And I am going to tell you why that is the case. Who Is Holding Us Back So later on, Greenleaf has this to say, which the first time I read this, I was floored. I read it and reread it. I shared it with people that I knew. I put sections of this book in level three because it is, anyway, just listen to what he has to say. So we are looking at the society, right, and we are super dissatisfied and we are like, what is going on in our culture. And we can maybe have the insight to recognize that the vacuum of leadership is a core root problem. But then we might ask this question, which is the question he asks. Okay, if this is a situation we find ourselves in, then who is the enemy who is holding back more rapid movement to the better society that is reasonable and possible with available resources. So we have all this technology, we have all this ability. What is holding us back. Why can we not get there. We will not be a perfect society, but we could be a way better society. So why are we not arriving. Who is responsible. He goes on. For the mediocre performance of so many of our institutions, who is standing in the way of a larger consensus on the definition of the better society and paths to reaching it. Not evil people. Not stupid people. Not apathetic people. Not the quote system. Not the protestors, the disruptors, the revolutionaries, or the reactionaries. Are you surprised by what he says. That is quite a claim to make. That is pretty surprising that he is calling this out. He sees the problem. He is obviously trying to do something about it. He is writing books, he is running organizations, he is training people. He is saying we have a vacuum of leadership. We have a big, huge problem here. We have everything that we need to build a better society. We have natural laws and rights and a wonderful constitution and all the things. What is holding us back. What is keeping us from doing it. And it is not these things. The evil, stupid, apathetic people, or the system, or the protestors, the disruptors. And he says part of the reason for that is because until we get to utopia, which we may never get there, those people will always exist in society. They cannot be the reason. They cannot be what is stopping us, because they will always be part of society. He says no. Here is what it is. The Real Enemy Is Fuzzy Thinking He goes on. This is so mind blowing. Moms, the real enemy is fuzzy thinking. This reminds me of this really awesome article by Mortimer Adler that I love, where he talks about how our inability to think clearly, to reason things out, to think in terms of principle, is at the heart of most of the problems that we find. And this is a guy who has done his homework and is the leading expert in this field, and he has brought it down to wrong thinking. Just like we talked about a couple episodes ago, how we changed your thinking about being a people pleaser, just by identifying one principle. And so the real enemy to the good society is fuzzy thinking. He goes on. Fuzzy thinking on the part of good, intelligent, vital people. That is you and I. That is just the truth. We are good, vital, intentional, intelligent people who want a better, more virtuous world. So we are, and it is our fuzzy thinking that is the problem. It is keeping us from having the leadership that we need to have that would bring about a better society. Let me read that sentence again and finish it out. The real enemy is fuzzy thinking on the part of good, intelligent, vital people and their failure to lead and to follow servants as leaders. Our inability to identify the people who we should truly follow and champion, who can lead us to a better world, and our unwillingness to gain the ability to think clearly, to be true servant leaders and to lead, is the problem. The people that can do it, that do not, are the problem. Too many settle for being critics and experts. There is too much intellectual wheel spinning. Too much retreating into quote research. Too little preparation for and willingness to undertake the hard and high risk tasks of building better institutions in an imperfect world. Too little disposition to see the problem as residing in here, and not out there. I am going to talk to you about that in just a minute. In short, the enemy to the better society that we all long for is strong natural servants who have the potential to lead but do not lead, or who choose to follow a non servant. They suffer. Society suffers. And so it may be in the future. This is quite a little lecture, quite a hand slapping that we have had from Robert Greenleaf, but I absolutely agree with him. The Only Way to Change a Society You and I have the potential to know how to follow the right people and to become the leaders that we could be. And our inability to think in terms of truths and principles, our fuzziness about what really needs to be done, as I say in the Seven Laws of Life mission, bringing principled solutions to real world problems, being mission driven servant leaders, is the problem. Greenleaf also says the only way to change a society is to produce people, enough people, who will change it. This reminds me of something that Jordan Peterson teaches often. He spent many years thinking and pondering and studying about communism, especially as it played out in the far east nations like China and Russia. And he kept asking himself, why. Why. Why did this happen. How do we stop it from happening again. And he went through all the books and he had all the conversations and he thought and pondered endlessly until finally he came to one very simple truth. And that was that the only way to stop it from ever happening again was to produce people who would stop it from ever happening again. To have more Ten Booms, to have more William Wilberforces. And that is why in the Mission Driven Life, I talk about how ordinary people can do extraordinary things. Because you and I feel very ordinary, but we can do extraordinary things, and we can be servant leaders, and we must be. And I am going to tell you how to start in just a minute. The Problem Starts In Here Greenleaf goes on to say this as well. The servant, that is you and I striving to be servant leaders, views any problem in the world as in here inside themselves. That is what he means, inside oneself, and not out there. He says this goes back to our principle with the boundaries in the recent podcast, right. We thought the problem was out there and everybody was just giving us a hard time. And then we said, okay, maybe I should just put up more fences. And then we realized, actually, if I will change my nature, if I will live according to principles, good, solid principles of boundaries, then things will just change. He goes on. If a flaw in the world is to be remedied, to the servant, the process of change starts in themselves, in the servant, not out there. This is a difficult concept for the busy, modern person. The busy modern woman. The busy modern mom. Your Family Is a Little Society Now I want to bring this home, because I have been talking for the last few minutes about the big picture of the culture and the society and all the things that feel so nebulous and out of our control. But guess what. Your family is a little society. If you take all the big problems and questions that are out there in the world and you think and ponder for a minute about your little home, you will recognize that almost everything is reflected in the small society of the family. The leaders. The rules. The laws. The choice and consequence. The relationships. The negotiations. So many of the things that we have to do as a society, we also have to do in our homes. And you are a leader right now. You are a leader in the little society of your family. And so since you are the leader, I want to ask you, how is it going. What kind of world are you creating in your home, and maybe even more importantly, in your own head and in your own heart. Leadership is always happening. It is just either good leadership or bad leadership. It is either servant leadership or it is selfish narcissism. And since we are already leaders, we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to our families, and we owe it to the society that we now govern to be the best leaders we can be. And so everything that Robert Greenleaf was talking about applies to you and I today. Right now. Who are those individuals, those mothers, those women, that are going to change our society by changing the societies in our homes, starting with ourselves. He says that we need natural leaders who have the potential to be servant leaders. That is you. Servant Leadership Requires Clear Thinking You have the potential to be a servant leader, and I know that you are already doing some of that. I know that you adore your family. I know that you try to serve them. I know that you try to put them first. But this is like so many other things. We hear words like servant leadership and we think we understand. We think we know. We think we get it. We think that it means doing more of this or that. But until we slow down and think, until we get rid of the fuzzy thinking and we get into the principled thinking, it is going to be very difficult to course correct properly, to understand what actually is going well, what is not going well, and how we can course correct to live more truth in our homes. And of course, how is this best done. It is best done through principles, of course. Leadership Is Character in Action Another book that I love is called The Servant. That one is by James Hunter. It is a beautiful analogy that teaches some really fantastic leadership principles. And he says that leadership is very simple. It is one phrase. Leadership is character in action. We have been talking about character this month. We have been talking about Stephen Covey. Remember that he said that there are basic principles of effective living, and that people can only experience true success and enduring happiness as they learn and integrate these basic principles into their character. That is what the character ethic is. And if character is everything in leadership, and character is developed through integrating principles into our nature, then we have our marching orders. We know what we need to do. As James Hunter says, you need to gain the skill for identifying the principle and moving it from your head. So you are going to get rid of your fuzzy thinking and learn to identify them, and then gain the skills to move those principles from your head to your heart, to where you have true understanding and conversion to that truth, and into your habits so that it becomes a way of life. It is just who you are. It is just what you do. It is how you talk. It is how you live. It is how you lead. It is how you govern those little people in your home. The Only Thing We Are Teaching Is a Principle And of course, Jack Barsin, who is a brilliant guy that I absolutely love, teaches all kinds of incredible things. He said, and he is right, and I could give you a million other quotes around this. He said that the only thing we are teaching anybody is a principle. And why would he say that. Because it is true, because there are a million ways that we can live out any principle. That is why you give them the truth and then the truth makes them free. So how can we do that in the first place. How can we teach people principles if we do not know them ourselves. How can we lead with them. How can our leadership be character in action if we are not truth seekers, if we have not become experts in our own life, if we are not discerners of truth, if we cannot build the small societies in our own heads and in our own homes based on true principles. When you do this, it changes everything, because when there is proper leadership, everybody thrives. Invitation to the Free Class In the next week, I am teaching a free class called How to Stop Feeling Powerless and Become the Expert in your own life. And I really want you there. It is the culmination of what we have been talking about for the last few weeks. It is going to be the deep dive that you really need. It is going to be a springboard for you to stop that fuzzy thinking, to start to dig into that character ethic, to begin to understand these ethereal, abstract things called principles and harness them. Send your lasso out and grab them. Identify them, write them as actionable, and put them to practice in your own home. So if you are ready to stop guessing, if you are ready to stop having other people tell you what to do, if you want to lead with confidence, then please join me. Register at the link below in the description, and I will see you there.
EP 142 From People Pleasing to Principle Centered
Are you exhausted from people pleasing? Do you feel resentful, unappreciated, or emotionally drained from always saying yes? In this episode, Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission Driven Life and founder of The Mission Driven Mom, reveals why people pleasing is not a personality flaw and not a boundary problem. It is a thinking problem. If you have been told you just need better boundaries, stronger scripts, or the courage to say no more often, this conversation will completely reframe how you see yourself and others. Through a powerful story from Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend, Audrey explains why tactics alone fail and why true personal power comes from principle based living. You will learn: Why people pleasing often leads to depression instead of joy The difference between tactics and actionable principles Why most boundary advice does not create lasting change The foundational principle that transforms relationships How treating yourself properly changes how others treat you Why character development always outperforms personality techniques At the heart of healthy boundaries is this truth: you cannot teach others how to treat you properly until you know how to treat yourself properly. When you shift from scripts and strategies to internal character work, everything changes. You stop negotiating for approval and start living from truth. You stop reacting and start leading. If you are a mom who feels overwhelmed by demands, decision fatigue, or ungrateful responses, this episode will give you clarity and direction. Make sure you are on our email list to register for the upcoming free training where Audrey will teach you how to uncover actionable principles for your specific struggles and start living them immediately. www.themissiondrivenmom.com Subscribe for more principle based leadership, motherhood development, and character driven personal growth. ______________________________________________________________________________ AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT INTRODUCTION Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of the Mission Driven Life and founder of the Mission Driven Mom. Today, I want you to know that people pleasing is not a personality flaw. It is not something that is wrong with you. It is a thinking problem. I am going to show you one principle and it is going to completely reframe how you relate to yourself and others without turning you into someone else. This is going to be really awesome. So I am going to start by reading you this story about Stan. THE STORY ABOUT STAN Stan was confused. He read in the Bible and was taught in church that it was more blessed to give than to receive. But he found that this often was not true. He frequently wished people would have more consideration for his time and energy. Yet whenever someone wanted something from him, he would do it. He thought this was loving and he wanted to be a loving person. Finally, when the fatigue grew into depression, he came to see me. This is one of the authors telling this story as a therapist. When I asked what was wrong, Stan replied that he was quote loving too much. How can you love too much, I asked. I have never heard of such a thing. Oh, it is very simple, said Stan. I do far more for people than I should, and that makes me very depressed. Is that sad. But yeah. Ironically true. Do we as moms just want to say this sometimes, that we do more for people than we should and it makes us depressed. It is just so ironic. The therapist goes on. I am not quite sure what you are doing, I said, but it certainly is not love. The Bible says that true love leads to a blessed state and a state of cheer. Love brings happiness, not depression. If your loving is depressing you, it is probably not love. I do not see how you can say that, Stan replied. I do so much for everyone. I give and give. How can you say that I am not loving. I can say that because of the fruit of your actions, you should be feeling happy, not depressed. So he says he asked him to tell him some of the things that he did for people, and he learned a lot about his doing and sacrificing from Stan. WHY THIS MATTERS FOR WOMEN AND MOMS Now, what is so interesting about this story is that I work with a lot of women, obviously, and often they will get into the academy, lets say, and just for everyones information, we do talk about boundaries, but not until near the end of level two. And it is near the end of level two for a very important reason, and that is because of a principle I am going to talk to you about in just a minute. So these women come in to level one and they do not just immediately learn about boundaries, but they are unhappy, they are unfulfilled, and they think they have a perception that other people in their life are causing the problem, that other people in their life need to be different. And that if those other people were different, then they would not have these problems. When they try to be really conscientious and honest, they start looking inside and being like, okay, maybe other people are not the problem. Maybe actually I am the problem and I am the problem because I need to have better boundaries. And that is what the world and people around me keep telling me. The problem is that you do not have good enough boundaries, and they expect to come into the academy and to increase their personal power immediately by being trained on boundaries, so sometimes they are disappointed. Then I do not teach them about boundaries right out the gate. WHAT PEOPLE THINK BOUNDARIES ARE And then what I watch them do oftentimes is okay, she is not teaching me about boundaries and I am going to keep going with this academy because I think it would be a good thing. But in the meantime I am just going to tell everybody no, because that is what they think boundaries is. In other words, they think that boundaries is a whole bunch of fences, maybe really tall fences, maybe wrought iron, maybe stone, and you get those fences up as tall and as strong as possible and keep everybody off your property and then you will feel better. But boundaries are just lines drawn, and they can be subtle and even fences need gates, right. People need to be able to come and go. TACTICS VERSUS PRINCIPLES So last week we were talking about tactics versus principles, and we were talking about character versus personality ethic and how the world has moved more and more in the direction, especially in the west, especially in America, more and more toward this personality ethic, tactic based way of being. And you can tell this in some of the things that go on. You need to do this neurolinguistic training. You need to brainwash yourself. You need to this, that, or the other. And it is not as if some of those things do not work. If they did not work, people would not use them. And it is not as if the people that promote those are bad or have bad intentions. We talked about this last week. It is just that those people do not understand that if you do not work on character first, that all the personality ethics in the world will not get you across the finish line. Eventually you will, in a crisis situation, it will come back to who you really are. WHAT IS SOLID AND LASTING In todays world there is a lot of this language about being performative, and everything we do in society is just performative and it is not really who we are. We are just always playing a role. We are just always acting a part in this big play of life. But there are some things that are solid, that are lasting, that are meaningful, that we can lean on. These principles, these immutable truths, and integrating them into our basic being and developing our character is one of those things that we can depend on. Because when we become a certain kind of person by integrating those principles, as Covey talked about, that the integration of correct principles into our basic nature is what makes lasting success and happiness possible. That is what we want to do. WHY STAN IS CONFUSED AND WHY MOMS GET EXHAUSTED Now, I want to tell you something even more fascinating. Stan is super confused. He is super unhappy. He is people pleasing like crazy. And you and I as mothers probably would not say it quite like Stan, that everybody needs to get off our back. But boy, when you are a mom of young kids, or you are a mom of adult kids, or you are a grandma, people need things from you a lot. And you are constantly in decision mode and trying to discern who to give what and when to say yes or no. And that decision exhaustion is real. And when people do not thank you a lot, in fact, when you, in your best intentions, try to help and then someone is ungrateful or angry or aggressive, it is devastating. I was teaching a workshop last night, the sneak peek for our Mothers of Creation event that is going to happen in the fall. And one of the women, we were talking about victim types and one of the women talked about a friend of hers who had a child do something that really disappointed her. And so she quote put herself to bed for three months. And so this is the point at which it could go. This is how far this can go. Like we can really turn our lives upside down because of what other people are doing, and we just do not want to do that. We just do not want to be at the mercy of other peoples decisions, and we do not want to be these people pleasers all the time. And it is really important to understand that truth is truth and truth can make you free. I am going to show you in just a minute how you will be on a completely different trajectory when I teach you this one principle. It will really start to get you on a different path if people pleasing is a problem for you or someone that you love and you are struggling because other people around you are not being grateful and they are asking too much from you. And your strategy so far has just been to say no a lot. What are you going to do. THE BOUNDARIES BOOK AND WHY IT STILL LEAVES PEOPLE STUCK And remember we talked about how a lot of these current things, people do not have the education to be able to discern principles for themselves. The story that I told you is drawn from probably the most definitive source on boundaries. It is called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. And I think they are incredible. I am very grateful for their work. I think that they do incredible good in the world, and that they are very mission centered individuals that are really out there doing all kinds of good. But I want to make one point here about even the best source by people who are trying to be God centered and mission centered, who have incredible educations. Both of the authors have doctorate degrees and they have been doing this work for a very long time. In this big definitive book on boundaries, there is only one chapter that attempts to teach principles. It is actually only one section, I think maybe it is one chapter in one section of the book, and they call it the 10 Laws of Boundaries. They are good, solid truths in a sense, but they are actually just concepts, not principles. They are not actionable principles. For example, the story I just gave you was law number five, the Law of Motivation. But then they told the story of Stans people pleasing, and then they talked about how Stan was afraid, and he was motivated by his fear. We might be motivated by lots of other things. And so then they go on to share, they say some things that we could be afraid of and some things that could be motivating us, and then talk about how we need to have the right motivations. I am still at a bit of a loss. I still do not have an actionable principle. I still do not actually know what to do. This is why we have fine tuned this process and we not only teach the law of nature and that ancient framework and principles and how they are immutable truths, we learn how to write actionable principles because that is the only way you know what to do. Here is another one, the Law of Evaluation. There is a page or two description, still do not really know what to do, and I had to go back and read and reread these and then try to write my own principles around them and still struggled to do that. So even in the best source, with a million or more copies sold, being the definitive source, going around teaching all these workshops, they do a lot of good and they help a lot of people, but they are also really caught up in a lot of applications and tactics. And if they knew better how to write actionable principles for us and delineate those more clearly, we could think about our own applications. THE MOST IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE ABOUT BOUNDARIES So the most important principle about boundaries that I have ever learned did not actually come directly from them, and when I share this principle with you, it will reframe, I hope, the way that you see yourself and the way that you see others and the way that you manage your people pleasing. Because at the very heart of boundaries, and there are a few other actionable principles we can flesh out around boundaries, and we do get to that eventually, and I am going to explain to you in a minute why we get to that only eventually in the academy, because boundaries are very simple. Boundaries are simply teaching other people how to treat you properly. WHY BOUNDARIES REQUIRE TEACHING As human beings, we tend to test limits. We tend to push boundaries. We tend to want to get away with what we want to get away with, partly just because we are lazy and it is hard work to live with intention all the time. And it is hard work to treat people the way that we ought to treat them. And we do not want to have to do a job or a task or whatever the case might be. And so we do not treat others the way that they should be treated all the time, or even most of the time. And in order for us to have proper working relationships, we must teach each other how they need to treat us. And when we have done a good, thorough job of teaching other people how to treat us properly, then other people can choose whether or not they want to honor what we have taught them. And that teaching can happen bit by bit. It can happen informally. It happens in a million ways. It happens with looks and body language and words and actions. But when we understand that is what we are doing, that in order to have proper boundaries we have to teach other people, it is a teaching, it is an active role, it is a choice we are making, it is an ongoing process, and the onus is on us. To do it right. To do it kindly. THE FOUNDATION FOR BOUNDARIES But here is where it really gets better. You and I cannot actually teach other people how to treat us properly unless we first know how to treat ourselves properly. Unless and until we treat ourselves properly, we will not have the clarity or the confidence or the language or the ability or the inner strength or the courage to teach others how to do it. If we cannot or will not treat ourselves properly, it becomes more and more difficult to expect others to. Because why would they treat us better than we treat ourselves. Now, sometimes people do. Sometimes there are really Christ like people in the world and they treat others properly because of who they are. And we love those people and we are grateful for those people. But normally, on the day to day, it is up to us to teach others, and that means that we start by treating ourselves properly. TREATING YOURSELF PROPERLY IS NOT INDULGENCE And that does not mean indulgence. One of my favorite things that C S Lewis ever said is that most people do not want a father in heaven. They want a grandfather in heaven. And he just meant that we want all of our wounds bandaged up. We want to be sent on the playground to have a good time. We want to have the lollipops and the candies and desserts. We do not want to eat our vegetables because that is what a father makes us do. A father disciplines us. A father teaches us what is right and wrong. A father expects us to do what is right or to take the consequences. And so even though treating ourselves properly sometimes means recreation and leisure and having fun, it also means disciplining ourselves. Like in the words of Laura Ingalls, I must make myself mind myself. AN ACTIONABLE PRINCIPLE FOR PEOPLE PLEASING That is where we get at an actionable principle. I must treat myself the way I expect others to treat me. And that is a jumping off place for a myriad of actionable things. Okay, what would that mean. That means I need to listen to my conscience better. That means I need to take care of my body, my mind, my soul, and my emotions. It leads to all sorts of better behaviors that then build the reserves and the confidence. By taking loving actions towards ourselves, we like ourselves more. We learn to love ourselves. The feelings of love and liking follow. They come after the loving proper actions, the making ourselves mind ourselves, the putting proper boundaries in place by treating ourselves properly. And this is why when you begin to think in principles, stuff that was so ethereal and confusing to you before just snaps right into focus. WHY THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING When we began this podcast and I talked to you about getting over your people pleasing, you might have had a myriad of solutions you thought I was going to give you about how you were going to sit down and have conversations or tell people this or that other thing, or tell people no, or set a better schedule, or a million tactics that you might be hearing out there in the world. But actually it all comes back to you. In a future podcast, I am going to talk more about this and why that matters so much, and this is exactly why our academy is built the way that it is built, because the foundation of all your other relationships is your relationship with yourself. And that core truth puts everything into clearer perspective. Now you know that if you struggle with people pleasing, you have an actionable principle you can take right now, and you can begin to work on your relationship with yourself. You can treat yourself better knowing that as you do, you will have the strength and the confidence and the clarity to expect others and to teach them with kindness because they do not always know. And as you change and you want them to change toward you, you will have to kindly teach them that kind of thing is not allowed. For example, how you talk to yourself. If you do not want others to talk badly to you, you should probably start talking better to yourself. Because you need to treat yourself the way that you would treat someone that you love. And when you do that, you can tell others not to talk to you that way because that is not how people talk to you, including you. So this shift increases your personal power when you lean into truth and not tactics. WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN REAL LIFE You are liberated to know what to do, to know how to practice. There is a myriad of actions that you can take from this podcast, from this one principle that you can begin to put into action. And as you work on loving yourself properly, as you treat yourself the way that you deserve to be treated, you simply communicate that to other people. Oh, we do not talk that way to me. Oh, we do not demand things of me. Oh, we honor my schedule. Oh, that is something that you need to do. And of course there are other principles of boundaries and there are, in a collaborative relationship, and you need to learn those and you can learn those. But unless the foundation is in place, the others will fall apart. Because when you get in a pinch and when things get rough, just like I said before, it will all fall back on the person you have become. The principles that you have integrated into your basic character will be who you are, and that is what you will fall back on in a crisis or in a hard situation, or when you are being called upon by someone to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable. You will not cut corners anymore. You will not let people take advantage of you. You will not do things that go against your conscience when you are around other people. Because you will treat yourself the way that you need to be treated, and this is why tactics fail with boundaries scripts. You say this and then they say this. Or just say these affirmations to yourself. Or just do these simple things. It is truth versus approval. It is that personal empowerment, becoming the authority in your own life, becoming the expert in your own life, and living the principles that cause you to work on you first and healing yourself internally, not just behaviorally. The answers are not out there. They are not in the words that you say in the way that you navigate these relationships. They are about what happens to you internally. And when you shift the focus from people pleasing and trying to negotiate those relationships out there to how you treat yourself better, parenting yourself, guiding yourself with good principles and practices, everything begins to shift. FREE TRAINING INVITATION AND CLOSING And in this free training that I am going to be teaching you soon, I am going to walk you through how to uncover principles like this for your specific struggles. And I am going to teach you how to start living them immediately. Make sure you are on our email list and you get registered for that free training. Because I really want to have you there so that I can give you these tools and skills. I can help you shift your thinking forever so that you can have truth make you free. Thanks for joining me. I will see you next time.
EP 141 Why Principles Matter More Than Tactics
If you have ever thought… “Why am I still struggling? I’ve tried so many different things and none of them create lasting change.” This week’s podcast episode is one you’re going to want to tune into 👀 What I’m going to show you may completely change how you see every book, course, therapist, podcast, and program you’ve ever tried. Let’s face it: Most growth systems aren’t failing because they’re wrong. They’re failing because they’re incomplete. Hit play on this week's podcast episode to take a step closer towards being the expert of your own life! Hop on our list to get access to the upcoming free class and Discover how the 7 Laws of Life Mission Can Transform You! https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPTINTRODUCTION Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. I’m so excited for you to join me today. I want you to understand that most growth systems—the programs that you join, the therapy that you go to, the courses that you take, the conventions that you attend—aren’t failing because they’re wrong, but because they’re incomplete. And today I want to talk to you about why tactics without principles will always keep you cycling through solutions, and why learning how to think is way more important than learning what to do. What we experience a lot as women and mothers is that we try to solve problems in silos. SOLVING PROBLEMS IN SILOS For example, we have a marriage problem. Things aren’t going well in our marriage, so we go to marriage therapy. Or parenting isn’t going well, so we go to a parenting seminar or a convention, or we buy some parenting books. Or our finances are a bit of a mess, so we sign up for or listen to Dave Ramsey. Or we need to fix our health, so we go out and get a health coach or a gym pass. These aren’t bad things to do. It’s not that they’re not going to help you. It’s not that these people don’t have good ideas, and it’s not that they’re trying to do something wrong. It’s just that they don’t have a principled approach—even when they might think that they do. The parenting example that I gave last podcast is a perfect example of how this happens. Remember when I told you about the moms that bought the book and they all read it, and their takeaway was, “When our kids argue, we need to let them argue and ignore them,” and then it made things worse in their homes? They had trusted an authority. They had leaned into that authority. This person had, I don’t know, some kind of doctorate degree or something, seemed like they really knew what they were talking about. This book had been popular or whatever the situation was, and they didn’t know how to discern for themselves what the best actions would be. So they took that person’s advice at face value, and it exploded in their faces. WHEN AUTHORITY DOESN’T HELP This is very much like when Blaine and I went to marriage therapy. Things were bad. We knew that they were bad. And, you know, bless him, he wanted to show me that he intended to stay together and that he loved me, and so he signed us up and we went. But literally, I can remember two helpful things from almost a year of meeting every week with this woman. One was that I cared way too much what people thought. That was actually legitimately helpful. It was an insight into myself that helped me to reallocate my values and be more careful about that kind of thing. And then the other thing I remember—the only other thing—was this scale she gave us as she taught us how to use a scale from one to ten to plan the dates that we would go on sometimes. And honestly, other than that, we spent a year— I don’t even know what we spent back then. A hundred, a hundred and twenty dollars a session. It’s now like a hundred and fifty a session. I mean, you do the math—four or five thousand dollars. I don’t even know what it was that we spent with her—and she did not know how to help us. Now, as a side note here, I have a husband who has a marriage and family therapy degree from Liberty University, which is a great school. But we watched him go through that program. We saw the things he was doing for his coursework. There are some good books that came out of that, some good advice that came out of that. But fundamentally, they were throwing things at the students. Many of the students seemed like they were broken themselves and were there because they needed their own healing. They did not seem like they were in a position to really help other people. And he came out of there still not really having any idea how to do therapy and how to help someone. Now, you can go get training and apprenticeship and all of that kind of thing. And I know that some people are very gifted. I’m not saying that it’s not helpful. I’m just saying that we give a lot of credence to what they say. We try that before a lot of other things—or instead of other things. And there’s a reason why it’s not always helpful. These people don’t always have the training that we think they have. They don’t always have the knowledge and wisdom we think they have. And we aren’t good at discerning what they’re telling us to do. CYCLING THROUGH SOLUTIONS We cycle through these different solutions. We try different things. What we don’t realize is that these things have a lot of overlap, and that trying to solve our problems in silos is just going to keep us cycling. We can have an insight here or there. We can have a little paradigm shift. We can get some help. But fundamentally, we aren’t actually changed. We aren’t actually seeing the world differently. We aren’t actually behaving differently with a fundamentally different perception of ourselves and the world—a different way of thinking and being. And we absolutely have to get to that point if we’re going to become the experts in our own lives. PRINCIPLES VS. APPLICATIONS This is because there’s a huge difference between principles and applications. Principles are governing truths. Applications are situational behaviors. Not all of the applications—and in fact, not most of other people’s applications or suggestions—are going to work for me most of the time. They’re just not. And so there’s a ton of voices out there. There has never been a time in the history of the world that can even touch this information age in terms of all of the stuff you’re being fed nonstop. It is exhausting to navigate. None of us are properly prepared for it. And unfortunately, we’re even less prepared because of the things that have been taken away from us that would have helped us prepare. CHARACTER ETHIC VS. PERSONALITY ETHIC This is the difference between classical education or liberal arts education and modern education. I’m going to tell you a story from Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. If you’ve followed me very long, you know he’s a favorite. When Dr. Covey was working on his doctorate, he studied the success literature published in the United States since 1776. He read hundreds of books, articles, and essays in fields such as self-improvement, popular psychology, and self-help. And he noticed something startling. The literature from the first 150 years focused on what he called the character ethic—things like integrity, humility, fidelity, courage, justice, patience, industry, simplicity, modesty, and the Golden Rule. But the literature from the last 50 years focused on what he called the personality ethic—quick fixes, social image, influence techniques, positive thinking, communication skills. And he said much of that later literature was superficial. It addressed acute problems temporarily but left the chronic root problems untouched. HACKING AT THE LEAVES VS. THE ROOT That’s what happened in our marriage. The therapist wanted to teach us communication techniques. And it’s not that communication isn’t helpful. But they’re techniques—not truths. We had deeper issues. How we saw ourselves. How we saw each other. What we took responsibility for. What we blamed each other for. One of my favorite quotes by Henry David Thoreau says: “For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, one is hacking at the root.” That’s what we’re trying to do. Hack at the root. Most self-help systems are hacking at the leaves. They don’t know how to get to the root because they don’t have the tools or the paradigm to do it. DISCERNMENT IS THE MISSING SKILL Covey explains that the character ethic teaches that there are basic principles of effective living, and that people can only experience true success and enduring happiness as they learn and integrate these principles into their character. But before you can live them, you have to recognize them. And in this flood of information, how are you going to recognize them unless you have discernment skills? THE BOOKSTORE STORY Years ago, I was in a bookstore looking for a copy of a book with wide margins so I could write in it. I wanted to highlight. Take notes. Write my thoughts. Have a conversation with the author. The salesgirl asked me why I wanted wide margins. I told her I wanted to write my thoughts in the book. And she said, “Oh, I can’t trust my thoughts.” It was such a powerful moment. She didn’t mean she had evil thoughts. She meant she had been schooled to believe that the professor knows better than her. That authorities know better. That she shouldn’t trust her own thinking. We are trained to write about what authorities think—not what we think. We’re never writing to ourselves or developing our own discernment. And that has left us unprepared. EDUCATION DIDN’T PREPARE US FOR WHAT MATTERS MOST Our modern education trained us for careers. But it did not prepare us for the areas where we will find the greatest fulfillment, meaning, and joy in life. If we don’t know how to use lifelong learning to discern truth and integrate it into our character, we are truly unprepared. BECOMING THE EXPERT IN YOUR OWN LIFE Imagine what it would feel like to be the authority in your own life. To have tools. To have discernment. To have confidence and peace. To listen to doctors and experts—but bring it back to truth and make your own grounded decisions. First, you identify truth. Then you learn it. Then you live it. Then it liberates you. FREE TRAINING INVITATION I have an upcoming free training where I’m going to show you how to stop outsourcing authority and start discerning truth for yourself. You are not meant to be stuck. You are meant to become the expert in your own life. If you’re not on the list, get on the list so you can be notified when registration opens. It’s free. It’s happening in a few weeks. I’m super excited about it. We’ve been working on it for a long time, and I hope it gives you what you need to turn a corner and start trusting your own ability to discern and discover truth for yourself. Thank you so much for being here, and I’ll see you next time.
EP 140 Why Women Are Stuck
If you feel like you’ve tried everything - books, courses, therapy, church, conferences - and you’re still feeling stuck, overwhelmed, and unsure of yourself, this episode is for you. In this episode, we explore why so many sincere, hardworking moms feel and you still feel stuck, overwhelmed, unsure of yourself, and frustrated… and why it’s not because you aren’t trying hard enough. We talk about the difference between advice and principles, why modern self-help often leaves us frustrated, and how learning to discern truth can radically change the way you see yourself, your relationships, and your direction. This episode is an invitation to stop outsourcing your life, learn how to think differently, and step into your role as the expert in your own life. I’m so glad you’re here. Enjoy the episode! INTRODUCTION: THE MISSION-DRIVEN MOM PODCAST Welcome to the Mission-Driven Mom Podcast. This podcast is for moms just like you who want to learn how to glorify God through finding and embracing true principles, discovering and developing your greatest gifts, and using them to serve your family and community. WHO THIS PODCAST IS FOR Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. If you are a woman who has tried everything—if you feel like you’re doing everything right to the best of your ability and trying really hard—if you’re reading books, signing up for online courses, in therapy, or going to conferences, and you still feel unsure of yourself, stuck, frustrated, and overwhelmed, then I want to tell you—I want to reassure you—that it is not your fault. Most women don’t struggle because they don’t try hard or because they’re not sincere. Most women actually try genuinely really hard, and they’re quite teachable and ready to learn and ready to change when they just know the right path to take. It’s not because of your lack of effort; it’s because you don’t have the proper tools. WHY TRYING HARDER ISN’T THE ANSWER And I know a lot of people tell you that, and I know that sounds like the song and dance of so many people online. But I’m here to tell you there’s something very ancient that’s going to feel very new—something that can radically change your trajectory in life because it radically changed mine, and it’s helped hundreds and hundreds of women who have gone through our program. I’m going to explain why you’ve done all the things you knew to do and you’ve given life your best effort, but you’ve been left very unprepared. And if you’re anything like me, you feel cheated—because you genuinely tried your best, and life has just left you hanging. You just don’t feel prepared for this super important moment in your life. And you probably feel powerless, even though you’re trying super hard. THE SEARCH FOR ANSWERS So recently someone asked me, “Why do women feel so stuck? Especially moms—why do we feel like this?” And if you’re anything like I was, you keep waiting for the next resource, and you have tried so many things. You’ve probably tried spiritual things—not to say that God wasn’t there or didn’t love you, and not to say that going to church isn’t incredibly helpful. You absolutely need those things, and you’ve tried them, and they’ve helped—but you’re still not there. Maybe you tried the next level of education, but you’re still not there. And you get to this point—you kind of hit this wall like I did—where you realize it doesn’t work. I keep doing all the things that the world tells me to do, and they just don’t help. In fact, sometimes they can actually make things worse. WHEN ADVICE FAILS: A PARENTING EXAMPLE I knew a group of women who wanted to improve their parenting. Things weren’t going well at their houses, so they found a parenting book, and they all decided to read it and do whatever the book said. And I don’t know exactly how this author said it, but one of their primary takeaways from this book was that if their children fought with each other and struggled, they should simply ignore them—that if they left it alone, somehow the kids would just work it out. And guess what? Things got worse at their houses because they didn’t have the ability to discern—to discern truth from error—and to live according to principles. WHAT WE ACTUALLY NEED: DISCERNMENT Now, you and I both know that what we really want is the ability to discern, to discern truth, to have confidence in our own decisions, and to be able to look out into the culture and not be repeatedly overwhelmed and confused by it. And what happens is we go out there, we try to find answers, and the world says all sorts of things. It says, “Follow your dreams.” It says, “Do what you love.” It says, “Ask yourself what you want.” And those are all the wrong answers. I’m telling you. A REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE: ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS In fact, I’ll give you one quick example. My daughter is a senior in high school, and she’s making decisions about what’s coming in her future. And some things didn’t work out in the last couple of years the way that she hoped they would have. So she’s not where she thought she would be, and that’s been overwhelming and frustrating. We were having a conversation about something in her life, and she was trying to make an important decision about what she’s going to do. And her comment was, “Well, I just don’t know what I want.” And I know she’s getting that everywhere in the world. Everybody’s asking her, “What do you want? What do you want? What do you want?” And I said, “You know, that’s not a very good question because it’s not a principled question.” The right question is, “What could I do that would make me feel good about myself?” That’s a way better question. THE CONSEQUENCES OF FOLLOWING THE WORLD So when you listen to the world and follow its advice, it often wreaks havoc. I mean, there are people in my life right now that I can think of—either they or someone they know made decisions based on those questions: “What do you want?” “Who are you?” Blah, blah, blah. And it did not work out well. In some cases, it really shattered lives. That’s so unfortunate. SALLY’S STORY: WHEN LIFE LOOKS PERFECT BUT ISN’T But there was a woman who, a few years ago, knew about the Academy. She didn’t really want to do it. And she had someone in her neighborhood who did the program, and this friend had mentioned to her a couple of times, “You know, this is really benefiting my life. I’m really learning to think differently. I’m really learning to see the world differently.” And this woman—we’ll call her Sally—told her friend, “You know, I don’t need more self-help in my life. I don’t need more people telling me what to do because all I do is try stuff, and then it doesn’t work. And every time I read that stuff or try that stuff, it just makes me feel worse about myself.” And she’s not the only one. A lot of women have said this kind of thing. But luckily, her friend prevailed. Her friend was able to share enough information with her that it convinced Sally she should get involved. And ironically, Sally was in a marriage and a life that actually, from the outside, looked very put together. Sally was the kind of woman who had been to quite a bit of college herself, whose husband was a brilliant and successful entrepreneur. They had several small, beautiful children. They were religiously affiliated. They were actually very beautiful people. They had a lot of friendships. They had connections in the community. And even in their mid-thirties, they were very financially successful. They had a big, beautiful home and lots of extended family connections. Their life looked very put together. It looked like they had everything going for them. And yet this woman, Sally, was silently crying inside. She had been on the brink of divorce for years. The people closest to her knew this, but many other people didn’t. And she just kept saying, “He doesn’t spend enough time at home, and we just can’t get along. I just think divorce is the only answer for us.” THE REAL ISSUE: EXPECTATIONS AND TRUTH In the meantime, she had, unfortunately, these bad thoughts about herself—why didn’t she have her life put together when all these other people on social media looked like they had their lives put together? And it was such a painful situation—to have everybody looking at her life thinking it was so perfect, and yet knowing that deep down inside there was real trouble. She didn’t know how to navigate it. She didn’t really like herself. She didn’t really know herself. She didn’t really love herself. And her marriage was unhappy—she was very unfulfilled in her marriage. She got involved with the Academy, and as she learned to see herself differently, as she learned these tools that I learned, as she gained knowledge about what truth is and how it makes us free, she came to understand a very important principle. That principle was that she was expecting her husband to meet needs that she could only meet for herself, and that she had been silently blaming him for many, many years for problems in their relationship where it was actually not his responsibility to fix those things for her. In fact, he couldn’t do those things for her. WHAT CHANGED EVERYTHING As she learned to think differently about herself, to think differently about her husband, and to think differently about their relationship—as she saw truth and practiced it—everything changed. Later on, someone in her life asked her, “How is your marriage?” And she said, “Oh, it’s night-and-day different. It is so much better, so much happier, and so much more fulfilling.” And they asked her, “Why? What changed?” She said, “I did this program, and I learned to see him and myself through the lens of truth.” She didn’t say it quite like that, but that’s essentially what happened. And she said, “I learned that I need to care for myself and not blame him when I don’t feel the way I want to feel.” So transformational. PRINCIPLES VS. INFORMATION That’s the difference between information and advice versus principles—because principles are timeless truths that work every time for everyone. And it’s so important that we understand the difference. That’s how we learn to discern. That’s how we begin to understand how we can actually transform situations permanently—because principles are timeless. They never change, and they always work. You and I are not above or below the truth. The truth is always available to us, and it will always make us free. WHY WE FEEL SO UNPREPARED We haven’t been given the tools. We don’t understand what they are. We don’t know how to identify them, how to latch onto them, and how to utilize them to be set free. Our modern education and self-help culture really focus on tactics. They focus on coping and symptom management predominantly. That’s not to say that these programs or therapists don’t ever say something that is true, timeless, and helpful. But their inability—and our inability—to properly identify principles, to call them out clearly, and to discern them for ourselves is crippling everyone. Because principles actually help us govern reality. And they work even when we believe they won’t. DISCERNING BETWEEN AUTHORITIES Most women have never been taught this because our education system doesn’t teach it anymore. And we are outsourcing all the pieces of our lives to authorities. We can’t be the experts in our own lives if we don’t know how to discern what we’re being told—even by the best authorities in the world. And I could tell you all kinds of stories. I think I recently told you—I can’t remember if I shared it on the podcast or not—the story of taking my daughter to two different professionals for her ankle when it was injured. One doctor told us she needed major surgery—a false ligament put in—with a year-long recovery. The other doctor said he could do a quick cleanup, do PRP therapy, and she’d be back in the gym. And guess what? The second doctor was right. And that’s the one we went with. That’s not to say the first doctor couldn’t have been right as well. But how do you discern as a mom? How do you make the decision? How do you know who to listen to? How do you sort through all these authorities? A CULTURAL PROBLEM And I’ll tell you what—I’ve mentioned this before, and we’re going to talk about this more this year, and I hope to get some experts on the show to talk to us too—but the feminist movement did us very few favors. You might make the case that it helped equalize some pay scales and opened up job opportunities for women. But fundamentally, it did a lot of damage to our psyche—to how we think about ourselves and how we manage ourselves in the world. THE REAL SOLUTION So that’s why I can tell you with absolute confidence: if you are feeling stuck and frustrated, it is not your fault. Even though you’re putting in all the effort and trying all these different resources, there are fundamental reasons those resources aren’t working for you. You don’t need to be more motivated. You don’t need to try harder. You don’t need to overhaul your life. You need to learn how to see and think differently. WHAT COMES NEXT In a few weeks, I’m going to be offering a free class where we’ll dive deeper into these concepts. We’ll have time for me to share key stories, teach important ideas, and show you how you can change your life—how you can really turn that corner you’ve been wanting to turn. You can begin to feel powerful and like the expert in your own life through some small changes that I’m going to show you. I would really love for you to be there. And if you’re not on our email list, make sure you get on it. You can get the free audiobook right now, or you can simply opt in so that when registration opens for this free class, you’ll be there. We can spend the time we need to deep dive into all of this, and I can give you the tools and resources you need so that life can be better and this pain can end. CLOSING Thank you so much for joining me today, and I will see you next time.
EP 139 Why the Empty Nest Is a Mission-Driven Season with Suzy Mighell
What happens after the kids leave home? In this episode of the Mission-Driven Mom Podcast, Audrey sits down with Suzy Mighell, founder of Empty Nest Blessed and Empty Nest Blessed: 60 Days to Finding Joy in the Empty Nest. It's available HERE. Together, they explore why the empty nest isn’t a destination—it’s a dynamic season of growth—and how women can move from loss and uncertainty into clarity, peace, and mission. Suzy shares the wisdom she’s gained from more than a decade of walking alongside thousands of women, as well as practical guidance for parenting adult children, releasing unhealthy expectations, and rediscovering who you are beyond motherhood. _____________________________________________________ Get Suzy’s Book Empty Nest Blessed: 60 Days to Finding Joy in the Empty Nest. It's available HERE. (Available in hardcover, ebook, and audiobook) Connect with Suzy Mighell Website & Blog: https://emptynestblessed.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emptynestblessed Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/emptynestblessed YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@emptynestblessed AI Generated Transcript Welcome + Introducing Suzy Audrey: Welcome back to the podcast. We have a treat for you today. I’ve got Suzy Mighell with me, and you’re going to find out what an incredible woman she is, because the more I get to know her, the more joy it is. She is the mother of Empty Nest Blessed. Suzy: You said I was the mother of Empty Nest. Audrey: The author. Yes. The author of— Suzy: I feel like I am its mother. I did birth it. Audrey: Yeah. The author of 60 Days to Finally Enjoy the Empty Nest. So we’re going to get into that. We’re going to talk about her experiences training parents. We’re going to talk about how she found her call as the mission-driven woman that she is, and other great tidbits. So if you’re new to the podcast, loop back and listen to some of those beginning podcasts so that you can better understand the frame of reference. Here we’re talking about the seven laws and how you can be a more mission-driven individual, so take advantage of that. So grateful to have you and ready to dive in and talk to Suzy. So, Suzy, just give us a little bit of introduction—things that you would like us to know about you. And we’re going to dive deeper, but just give us an introduction: where you’re at in life, and something a little bit about you and your family. Suzy’s Introduction: Family + Calling Suzy: Okay. Well, first of all, I am such a fan of yours, and now we’re firm, fast friends. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: And I’m so grateful. We are kindred spirits. We are so aligned, and I’m grateful. It’s such an encouragement to find the women that—there—that mission-driven mindset. And I even love that term: mission-driven. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And I’ve actually—I’ve plagiarized it. Is it copyrighted, Audrey? Audrey: No. It probably should be. Suzy: It should be, because I have—I actually used it on a TV show last week that I was on. I hadn’t met you yet, but I knew that I was coming on here, and really I was talking about helping women in the empty nest really be mission-driven and finding their purpose. Audrey: That is awesome. Suzy: All your time. Audrey: That just shows you how aligned we are. Suzy: So, that’s awesome. Audrey: We are, we are so aligned. Yeah. Suzy: Well, my name is Suzy Mighell, and I have been an empty nester for 10 years. I live in Dallas, Texas with my husband. We met at Baylor University and married not long after graduation. We’ve been married 38 years, and we have three grown children, two daughters-in-law—which, by the way, I’m a writer. I used to say “daughter-in-laws,” but it’s actually “daughters-in-law.” Audrey: Daughters-in-law, yep. Suzy: Trivia. And I have two precious grandbabies under three—a boy and a girl. And I have two crazy grand-dogs all in the same family with the two children, so they need a lot of help when we’re available. And then my youngest is a daughter. She is single and precious. And so, yes—so that is us. Bob and I have been married, as I said, 38 years. I have always been involved in discipling women, teaching women, speaking, sharing my story, encouraging. I thank God I knew early on that even before the love languages were, like, a thing, God had given me the gift of encouragement. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: I do think the biblical term “exhortation” is deeper and richer than just encouragement. I think it encompasses inspiration. I hope it encompasses persuasion—exhortation, encouragement—all those things. So I really see myself more as an exhorter than an encourager. Becoming an Empty Nester: Listening and Obeying Suzy: When I became an empty nester 10 years ago—took my last child to college—I knew before that time I had been serving on nonprofit boards. I was, you know, the PTA president. I was speaking and doing some training on parenting and things like that—character-driven parenting as my kids were growing up—teaching on that and traveling some, doing that. And I knew I wanted to do something of significance in the empty nest. I wasn’t sure what it was. And gradually the Lord just steered me in the right direction. And I can say that the most important thing I did was listen and obey. Audrey: That’s— Suzy: So that involved, on my part, Him prompting me somewhere and me saying, “Okay,” and pursuing it. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: You know, we live in a time where it’s so easy to get information, and so many people are willing to share. And I found myself in a situation of doing what I called informational interviews. So I was like, “Well, you know what? I’ve always kind of liked fashion, so maybe I should sell cabi clothing. They seem like a great company.” So I went and talked to some girls who were doing it and followed them around, and I was like, “Uh, I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s great. I love fashion. I’m not sure it feels significant enough on its own. I think that’s really what the Lord’s calling me to.” So, different things. The Blogging Era and Noticing a Need Suzy: And I knew 10 years ago was the advent of blogging—when people were starting to blog. It was not the influencers. It was not the content creators. People were just blogging. They were getting these websites, they were writing down their feelings, writing down their thoughts, and sharing it with the world. And people were reading blogs. Much like with podcasts today, people were like, “Oh, do you follow this blogger? Do you need to read this blog?” And so I thought—because in college I was a marketing and PR major. Journalism. Audrey: Oh, wow. Suzy: Triple major. Audrey: Triple major. Suzy: So I was like, “Why? I mean, I’m always going to write, and I feel like I have something to share.” So I was thinking about that—thinking like, “Yeah, things for me.” But I know—what do I have to talk about? So at the time I noticed, as many of my friends were dropping off those last children in college, that many of them were feeling lost. I think all of us—me included—felt that sense of grief that accompanies that huge transition, but also a sense of loss, a longing for purpose. Audrey: Yeah. I would think you would call that just a longing for mission. Suzy: Yeah. And a need to see, “What does God have for me? How can God use me?” Starting Empty Nest Blessed Suzy: And so I started looking, praying—as I said, informational interviews. If I’d known you then, I would’ve been like, “Oh, we’re going to have a series of informational interviews, Audrey.” Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: Anyway—so really just talking to people and following the Lord’s leading. And I had this idea to start a blog for empty nesters that had an encouraging, joyful take on it. And I thought, “You know what? All it’s really going to take for me is the willingness—and really the courage—to put myself out there.” Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: As I looked at what empty nester blogs were out there, many of them were sad. They were like, “I was curled up on his bed in the fetal position crying,” and I thought, “Okay. Okay. This is not what the Lord wants for you.” I’m married to a very financial husband. He is very financial. He is a CFO. He’s a CPA. He thinks very bottom line. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so he was like, “You know, we’ve got a third of our life left.” That’s basically the bottom line. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: I was like, “Okay. That’s a good way to put it. We have a third of our life left. How does the Lord want to use us, and what is the purpose?” And so I just felt like, “I’m going to go on this journey and discover God’s purpose for me, and see if I can just take women along with me.” Serving the Whole Woman in the Empty Nest Suzy: So I started this blog and started doing things like—I would write a blog post about cooking for two rather than cooking for five, and here’s how you use a little two-quart crockpot instead of like the eight-quart one you used for your big family, and here’s how you modify your recipes. And then I would make these videos and put them on YouTube or Facebook, and people would be like, “Oh, that’s great. Did you get that recipe out of a certain cookbook?” Or, “Hey, by the way, tell me about your earrings.” And I thought, “What’s going on?” At first I was like, “This is not the point of what we’re talking about.” But then I thought, “You know what? People want to feel resourced. They just want to be resourced.” And I realized that so many new empty nesters—because we really gave ourselves into that sacred calling that is motherhood— Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: —that is precious, and that calling from the Lord to raise up this next generation, to raise them well—feel like moms set themselves aside during that period. And many, many moms then get to the empty nest stage and they are behind. They maybe don’t know how to do tech. They maybe have neglected their health and wellness. Often this coincides with perimenopause and menopause. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: So there are issues there. Maybe they have fallen out of the habit of exercising as they were busy with kids. Sometimes marriages suffer as there’s an over-focus on the children. Maybe their relationships— So many of us at that 50-ish age are in the middle of that sandwich generation. We may have elderly parents that need attention— Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: —on down to those younger generations. Sometimes we don’t know how to dress our body at 50. “I still want to look fashionable, but I don’t know how to dress this 50-year-old body,” or how to translate the trends to be what I would consider age-appropriate. You know, all those things. “I’ve got wrinkles on my face.” So I just decided there was room to speak into just the empty nest woman, because that’s what I was. So it’s just made it really easy to be authentic. I just needed courage to say, “Okay, y’all, I’m having these wrinkles right here—now you see them—here’s what we’re going to do about that.” Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And share what I was using or what I was doing—whether it was fashion or beauty. So I decided to really focus Empty Nest Blessed on the whole woman, because women are so beautifully multifaceted. We love our families, but we love a good bubble bath. We love beauty products, we love cute clothes, and we love our husbands. And so I thought, “I’m going to talk about all those things.” Empty Nest Blessed Mission Statement Suzy: So that is how I ended up with Empty Nest Blessed. My mission statement with Empty Nest Blessed, right from the beginning, has not changed, and it was to encourage, inspire, and bless empty nesters. And to me, that blessing encompasses serving them. So if I can help you find a Target sweater that makes you feel cute, I am thrilled. Because I feel like I’ve served you—because you don’t like to shop, or you don’t get out there, and you’ve never seen this Target sweater until I put it on. This is, by the way, from Target—little puff sleeve, short sleeve sweater. Audrey: Cute. Suzy: Thank you. So that is the approach that I took. And I just started writing, and women responded, and it’s been 10 years, and I’m still going. Audrey: That’s so great. Suzy: And during that time, you know, I’ve expanded as my life’s expanded—as my boys both got married, as I became a grandmother. My topics have expanded. The Empty Nest Isn’t a Destination Suzy: And I think it’s so funny, Audrey. I’d love to know what you think about this, because I feel like when we’re younger, don’t you feel like we talked about the empty nest like it was a destination? Like you and I are going on a plane and we’re going to Paris, and then we are in Paris. No, this is more like an around-the-world cruise. You more like got on a boat and then it took off, and you’re just in all kinds of different—it’s not a destination. It is a dynamic journey that you just embark on. Audrey: Yeah. Do you feel that? Suzy: Yeah. Audrey’s Response: “I Wish I’d Thought About It Earlier” Audrey: Yeah. And you know, for me—I mean, we’re not quite there. We’re pretty close. But I just didn’t think about it enough. And we’ll get into Suzy’s book here in a minute, but one of the things I said to her when we were talking yesterday—just about things—she mentioned, “Well, I really feel like women need the book who might be struggling in empty nesting or maybe they’re just entering it.” And I said, “No, I think they need it 10 years before.” It would’ve helped me to have interacted with some of these ideas earlier—to have put more thought into this stage of my life, because I just thought about the go-to-college, get-married, have-the-kids part. I didn’t really think a lot about the parenting-of-adult-kids thing, and frankly, I thought it would be a lot smoother. And that’s not—you know, I have great kids. That’s mostly my problem, not theirs. But just thinking about each phase of life—thinking about what the future might bring and what you might want in that phase—is so helpful. And we’re thinking more about it now. I mean, we’re doing a better job now, but it’s going to happen. It’s imminent. It’s in your future. And so the more you can think about what that will look like—and for many women it means many years that their husband is still working full time. And sometimes these women work. Sometimes they find work that’s meaningful for them, and that’s wonderful if they do. But I know plenty of women whose husbands have retired young, or they’re in their fifties, they’re empty nesters, neither of them is working, and they’ve said to me that they aren’t sure how to use their days. They’re becoming really kind of overbearing grandparents—some of them—because they don’t know how else to use their time. And I’m always like, “There are so many ways God could use you.” So I do really agree with you that it’s—and you’ve walked it—but I think because of your attention to it— Your intention to understand it—and then all the interactions with however many hundreds of thousands of women that you’ve had and their feedback—has made you such an expert in this area, and able to reflect back. Because this is what I’ll say: as I was reading your book, it was like almost every page I felt like, “Oh yeah, that’s totally me,” or “I have exactly felt that way,” or “I have had that exact problem.” So you really have hit on what some of those key pain points are and given some beautiful solutions. And another thing I really love about the book is that you give journal prompts—I think for every day, or most days. And so you’re providing your insights and you’re providing some answers, but you’re also encouraging us to be really self-reflective, which is so therapeutic and helpful, and helps us come to our own conclusions around that thing. And some of them, it’s addressing pain points, but mostly it’s being optimistic—looking at the future, focusing on the good—which I think is so vital. So I want to go back, if you don’t mind, to when you were a little bit younger. What caused you to study the things that you studied in college? And what did life look like for you as a younger mother? Simply because we have moms of all ages listening, and I would like them to get a little bit clearer picture of what led you to that moment—and you said it was on your birthday—of dropping your last child off at school and hitting that wall. Wow. So what, in your growing up years or your college years, gave you some insights on who you are? How did your own self-discovery journey—what did that look like for you in figuring out, “Oh, this is what I’m interested in,” “I’d like to know more about that”—that self-knowledge that aided you in your life? Suzy on Intentionality and Being Called by God Suzy: I think that’s a great question. And I think one of the things, as you were just talking, that I love—and that I think we’re so aligned in—is the idea of intentionality. Being very intentional. The people that I see just willy-nilly wandering through life and just kind of going with their gut and reacting with their gut and not pausing to listen to the Holy Spirit—just not being intentional, not being thoughtful about responding. And listen, I’m an impulsive talker as much as the next person, but I think that desire to live with intentionality— So honestly, Audrey, I can remember from an early age, when I really came to know the Lord, just having an overwhelming desire to want to glorify Him, and yet not knowing what that was going to look like. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so I remember just thinking this very—like—all I have to really offer is this thing. Audrey: Yep. Suzy: And all I have to offer is me. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: But I had a strong sense of what, of course, is throughout scripture: He equips whom He calls. Audrey: Yes. Yep. Suzy: And I don’t just mean that like, “You’re going to have a podcast, so you got a microphone.” I don’t mean equipped that way. I really felt like He gifted me the way He gifted me. He put the desires in my heart. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: If we’re truly given over and surrendered to the Lord, and our heart’s desire is to honor and please Him in all we say and do and think, two things are guaranteed. Number one: we will fall short. We will live for ourselves. We will sin. We will gossip when we shouldn’t. We will make mistakes. We must repent and turn from that sin and do our best. The second thing that’s guaranteed is that He will be faithful. Audrey: Mm-hmm. Suzy: If you desire to please Him, He will equip you to please Him. Audrey: Yes. Yeah. Suzy’s Upbringing, Gifts, and Learning to Say Yes Courageously Suzy: So I think my own natural abilities and instincts—my upbringing. My family moved about every two years when I was growing up. So I was always in a new environment, always meeting new people. So I got good at just being warm, being friendly, being— Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: —I can talk to anybody, and I’m not intimidated. I’m not shy, because you couldn’t be. You won’t survive. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so I think I saw the way the Lord brought my life circumstances to shape me, as well as my spiritual gifts—exhortation, discernment. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And my desire to encourage others, to build them up, to help them see what I could see when I looked at them—which is, “You just have so much to offer. Please share your gifts with others.” Audrey: Yes—please. Suzy: And I think I could see things—or that maybe it’s just the spiritual gift of discernment—but I could see that in them even if they couldn’t. So that combined with this desire to exhort. The five love languages—my primary one is, guess what: words of encouragement. So it’s just about who He made me, who He called me to be. And what I added was just the desire to honor and serve, to live in His will, and do what He wanted. So I think being open, and then listening to His voice and being obedient—and when He put an opportunity before me, not saying yes to everything, but thinking very carefully before I would say no. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: Making sure it wasn’t a no because I was afraid. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: If it was a no because it was a little outside my comfort zone, or I’d never done it before, or it sounded a little scary and big—that’s not a reason to say no. God Doesn’t Waste Anything Suzy: So really, as I’ve done Empty Nest Blessed and as I’ve seen the Lord work in my life, I saw that He would bring me time after time into situations where I would learn, and He was setting me up for the future. He literally—hear me on this—He does not waste a thing. Not a— Not a miscarriage that I had. Not a sin that I committed that I regret. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: Not a conversation. Not a night of sleep where He woke me up—and it says in the Word He speaks to us in the night—and that He’s speaking to me, and I’m listening. He doesn’t waste a thing. And if you truly live with that mindset, you will listen and you’ll pay attention. And you will see Him. If it’s your desire and you pour out and ask Him, you will see Him everywhere, and you will see Him preparing you. And so when an opportunity comes and you think, “I don’t know,” but then you just can fall back and go, “He’s equipped me. He’s prepared me for just such a time as this. He said, ‘This is the way—walk in it,’ and my job is to walk.” And it’s such the sweetest way to live. I cannot tell you. It brings peace. It brings joy. It brings a sense of purpose and mission. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And it’s not perfect. My life is not perfect. I make mistakes. I misspeak. I sin. But I am sold out to my Savior—honoring Him with my life’s calling and my life’s work—and committed to serving others. I think if I had one message that I want your precious audience to hear, it’s that if you desire for Him to use you, He will do it. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: If you desire—oh yes—and He’ll do it. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: He will do it. And your job is to take courage, be obedient, see what He’s done. Practical Identity Work: “Describe Me in Three Words” Suzy: And, you know, in a really practical sense too—let’s get practical—because one of the things I talk about in my book is moms come to the empty nest and they go, “I don’t know who I am anymore. Like, I studied these things in college a long time ago.” Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: I mean, you know, I told you my major was PR, journalism, and marketing. So I was in journalism—let me tell you, there was no internet, girl. Audrey: There was no internet there. Suzy: We were typing. Audrey: Yeah. I tell my kids all the time, we went to the typing lab. Suzy: That’s what we did. Audrey: We did. Suzy: We wrote papers. Audrey: We did. Suzy: And we were just grateful that we had automatic typewriters. Audrey: Oh, yes. Suzy: And they weren’t— Audrey: Yep. Suzy: Isn’t that funny? Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And just so grateful. So anyway, I think it’s very, very important. I open my book this way because I think no matter where you are in life, the most important thing is to figure out who you are—and most importantly, who God says you are. So I open the book with a chapter that tells you to do something kind of weird, and that is: text 10 people and ask them to describe you in three words. Audrey: Oh, I love this exercise. Suzy: And I did. I texted my kids. I texted my parents. I texted—And I shared this story about how I thought they were going to be, like, real bossy. And especially my mom was going to be like, “You’re wealthy,” you know, “bossy, opinionated, strong,” you know—whatever. I was expecting to hear all of these negative terms. Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. Suzy: And I already had tried to do this—as I went through the exercise. The first part of that exercise is really: write down what you think you are—like how you hope that you are, and what you are, and what you think your gifts and abilities are, skills, all those things. So then when I get these words back, I hear words like “encouraging,” “motivating,” “persuasive,” “inspiring,” “confident leader”—all these things. It was shocking. It just reframed everything for me. And I thought, “Lord, if this is what people think they see—I mean, I know I’m a hot mess or whatever—but if they think they see this, this is like a little bit of me and all You. So I can walk in that.” Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And He says, “This is the way—walk in it.” I can walk in that way. I can be that woman that people think I am because of my faith. Who God Says You Are Suzy: And then we go on in the book to talk about the importance of what God says about who you are, and I have a list of 50 things right from His Word. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: That He says you are beloved, and accepted, and—peaceful—and He rejoices over you, and you’re a daughter of the King—all these things. So it’s a sweet, sweet list that you can camp on as your daily devotional for hopefully weeks and months. Audrey: Mm-hmm. Suzy: I hope so. Audrey: Mm-hmm. Suzy: I hope it’s encouraging. The “Who I Was + What I Learned” Formula Suzy: But I think too—I don’t know if you’ve gotten to the part in the book—but we take those words—things that you feel like you were, the gifts that you had before maybe you even had kids. Audrey: Mm-hmm. Suzy: Because you were a woman before you were a mama. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: So you take who you were as a woman before—what you were good at—and you think that through, work through that journal, through that—however you need to do it. Then you take these words you got from others. You take what God says about who you are in Him. And then you start thinking about, okay, how long was I parenting? You know, if you have one child, you’re talking 18 years—you were actively parenting. If you have multiple children—like we do, you and I—it’s maybe 25-plus years that you are actively parenting. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: So literally write down: what skills and abilities did you add or enhance during that time that you were fulfilling that very, very important role of a mother? You probably became a better counselor. You definitely became a better driver. You probably became a better cook. All the things. If you were a flower arranger, you probably became more organized—what did you add? So it really is like a formula: who I was before I had kids, what I learned during that time, equals who I am now. And if you can identify that, you are well on your way to figuring out your purpose and your mission. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And add to that all the beautiful things that you share with The Mission-Driven Mom about the seven laws and natural law and really understanding the great works—and you’ve got a woman that can contend. Audrey: The World Needs These Women Audrey: Yeah. And one of the things that kind of makes me sad when I talk to some of these women who are in that empty nest phase and feel lost is I just always think, boy, the world needs you so much more than you know. And what I find—and maybe you find this too—is so many people selling themselves short. And frankly, I know that this false humility thing—where we conflate beating ourselves up with somehow being humble—those are definitely not the same things at all. But also, alongside what you were saying, Suzy, I think sometimes we’re selling ourselves short, and actually the real problem is just a lack of faith—because we don’t trust the God who made us, and we don’t trust that He can use us. And that He understood that equation from the beginning. And so, in a very practical sense, echoing what you said: if someone comes up to you and says, “Is there something I can do to help you?” and they stick around long enough and let their will be known, you’re going to find a way to use their help. This is exactly what God does with us. This is why the first principle in my book—the first thing we talk about in the Academy—is just the concept of being willing, being submissive. Submission comes before mission. And it’s just recognizing that as clumsy and as awkward as you feel, you still are useful. You are irreplaceable in the space that you live in, and there is so much room for you to grow into more. Audrey’s Pottery Story: Discovery Can Happen Later Audrey: One of the stories that I love to tell: I went to a Fourth of July celebration in a park where they had little setups from colonial times, and one man was there busy with a potter’s wheel and showing kids how he threw pottery. Then he had a bunch of his work displayed, and you could purchase it. And it was beautiful. He did gorgeous work, and he was clearly in his retirement years. And so I said—well, I just assumed—“How long have you been doing this? You must have been doing this for a really long time.” He said, “Oh, just three or four years.” So what happened? He said, “Well, I always was curious about pottery. I thought it would be fun to take a class. And so I finally just went ahead and did it. Turns out I’m really good at it.” And he never would’ve known. And here he was—60, 65-plus—when he discovered this incredible gift that he has. And now he travels around and shares this with children. It’s an income source. It’s a source of joy and relaxation for him. It’s a way to teach and give back and serve. It’s all these beautiful things—mission-driven things—wrapped up in one. And that self-discovery never has to end. And so I’m sure in your work—and I can ask you this question—what are you still discovering about yourself and about what God can do with you even in these empty nesting years? Because it looks to me very much like you’re still facing fears, you’re still engaged in personal growth, and you’re still showing up every day, letting God use you. So what’s that giving to you personally? We know that your work is blessing other people, but what’s it doing for you—how you see yourself and your relationship with God—and those kinds of things? Suzy: God Doesn’t Need Me, Yet He Wants Me Suzy: That’s a great question. Thank you for asking that. I think more than anything, I am struck by the fact that God—who created the universe, who made mountains out of nothing, put the stars in the sky and the sun and the moon, and created my hand—He does not need my help. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: But He truly—this is truly how I feel—He literally lowered Himself to want me to help Him. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: It is such a supreme act of love. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And yesterday you and I got on the topic of talking about the sovereignty of God, and I think either you truly believe He’s totally sovereign, or you’re doing some sort of weird form of idolatry where you’re making God into the image of man and you’re putting limitations on Him. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And He’s totally sovereign. You can’t comprehend the sovereignty of God, truly. And it’s called a great mystery in scripture. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so I think to answer your question: the older I get, the more grateful I become that He is choosing to use me. He does not need me. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: He can raise up out of stones. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: He can raise up another person to do my job. Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. Suzy: But He loves me so much that He wants to use me and partner with me. He is about my growth—my conforming into the image of Christ—my becoming more like His Son. That’s what He is about. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: The mission He can do— Partnering With God and Believing You Have Something to Offer Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: So—nothing. I am just—yes—nothing. I am just so, so grateful. And so I love what you’re saying about partnering with Him. I actually think that He’s like, “Okay, I will use you.” Audrey: Yes. Suzy: It’s almost like He said, “I choose you.” Audrey: A hundred—okay. A hundred percent. Suzy: Exactly. Yes. And He does not—I mean, this is not a partnership. This is like me going, “Really? Oh, wow. You’re—okay.” Well, yes, of course, but I know exactly what you mean. You’re not alone in it. You can’t even begin to understand the load and the weight that He’ll carry, and the resources that He’ll provide that will show up. And like you, the most heartbreaking thing I see—and you and I are so aligned in this—is women who do not feel that they have something to offer. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: As we are called to love others as we love ourselves, and consider others more important than ourselves, and to serve others through love—anyone can do that. Audrey: Yep. Suzy: If you come to the Lord palms up and say, “Do this. Show me how,” how things will fall into place. If that is truly the desire of your heart, He will give you—sorry, I keep hitting my microphone—He will give you the desires of your heart. He says that in scripture, and He will provide the way, provide the path. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: If you don’t feel equipped and ready, take Audrey’s course. Go through my book. Go through Audrey’s book. Be open, do the work, and see how the Lord has been preparing you and equipping you all your life. You didn’t see it, but you’ll start—the light bulb will go on. You’ll go, “This is it.” Audrey: Yeah. This is it. Yeah. Continuing Growth and Refining Over Time Suzy: So how am I continuing to grow? Learning new things all the time. I’m curious. I’m learning new things. He puts challenges in front of me. It’s like when you have a fingernail and you take your nail file and—you know, you don’t file the top where it’s already smooth. You file the edges where there’s like a pointy thing. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so I feel like that’s what the Lord is always doing in my life. He’s like, “You’ve got a little pointy thing here, and it’s kind of a problem, and so we’re going to file on that for a little while.” It’s funny too, because I’ve realized with writing this book—so I just turned 60 this year, and 60 feels super old. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: Like the number. When I was young, I always thought, “60. Now that’s old.” Like, that’s grandma age. Well, I am a grandma. But I didn’t think 60 was like this. And I’m very aware and trying to be very thoughtful of the example I’m setting for my children and other young people I meet when I get to speak at colleges or whatever. I just want to set this example of this is what the last—according to my husband—third of your life looks like. Where you are making a difference. And really the number one thing to make a difference is just be surrendered to God and trust Him to bring you the thing. Audrey: Mm-hmm. Suzy: And remember—when I was younger—did you do this? I remember being afraid that if I really surrendered and submitted, He was going to send me to Africa. Audrey: Oh yeah. Suzy: Scary, in solitary confinement, like Corrie ten Boom or something. Audrey: Yes, yes. Suzy: And it was going to be terrible. The Lord knew that this delicate flower could not handle that. It was not going to be my calling. There’s no mascara in Africa. Anyway, I just—I was like, “No, I cannot.” And sure enough, the Lord equips whom He calls and He loves us enough to prepare us and prepare the way for us. And that’s what He did with me. Audrey on Comparing Callings and Trusting Your Assignment Audrey: Yeah. It’s funny—the hang-ups we have. There’s a woman actually that came through my Academy, and the women that come through, they go on to do incredible things. This particular woman has bought some land in Mexico and she’s trying to establish an orphanage for Mexican orphan children—like a boarding school for them. And it’s really amazing. And I remember a couple years ago having a conversation with her about her work, and getting off the phone and being like, “What am I doing?” Like, I just feel like I’ve got such a cushy life. And I mean, we’ve gone down there and served an orphanage—I try to give back in those ways too—but I really had to do some soul-searching and make sure that I knew, “This is where I needed to be.” And finally, I just—Lord and I talked it out again—and He was very clear: “You are to be the one that stays where you are and inspires the women where they are.” And so it doesn’t seem hard enough or enough of a sacrifice. And then you have people on the other end, you know? So it—we all have our hang-ups. Suzy on “Toggling” and the Danger of Comparison Suzy: Yeah. And I think there’s a little graphic that’s in my book—I don’t know if you’ve gotten to it yet—where I talk about toggling. You know how your iPhone, all of a sudden, is messed up, and you’re like, “What is happening?” And you investigate, and then you find one little switch was toggled the wrong way. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: This happened—I’m toggling things. So anyway, I talk about: toggle on kindness. Toggle on compassion. Toggle off comparison. God is working on you individually—remember, Creator of the mountain, sun, moon, all of that—so working in the lives of individuals. When you think of how many individuals there are, working in the lives individually of that many people, that’s nothing. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: That’s nothing. Audrey: Yeah, yeah. Suzy: Truly, totally sovereign. He can do that. So He is at work, and there is no comparison. Do not compare. But we tend to do that. And I think we are in a situation and environment with social media where that is very common. Managing the Message and What Silence Communicates Suzy: And I notice that the things that I talk about, I can talk about, and people have opinions about. And sometimes they push back or tell me that’s awful, or they don’t agree, or they think it’s fabulous—whatever they think. And then there are others—if it’s an area of life where I stay silent, they tend to fill in the blanks. And that’s the thing you learn in PR: beware of silence. Because when you’re not controlling the message—when you’re allowing silence—you’re giving permission to other people to fill it in. And so there are things I’m just not going to talk about on social media. I’m pretty honest about a lot of things, but I don’t show my grandbabies’ faces because the parents have asked me not to. And I don’t talk about their names or who they are. We just don’t talk a lot about that. Same with my parents. My parents have asked me not to talk about them or where they live or anything like that. So I honor that. And so there are things I’m not going to talk about. But even things in my own life—people make assumptions based on what you don’t say. And what I’ve noticed is usually they assume you are up here and they’re down here. Audrey: Yep. Just because you’re sitting in front of a mic. Suzy: Oh yeah. Or they think, “Surely I have it all together,” and they are a hot mess. And I’m like, “Oh no. It’s probably the opposite. Opposite. But thanks.” Audrey: The Adversary Attacks the Call Audrey: Yeah. Honestly, as soon as I start—when I have really big challenges—the first thing that the adversary wants to say to me is, “Who are you to be The Mission-Driven Mom? Who are you to hold yourself up like you’ve got it together?” And I shrink from the call. That’s the way he gets me, right? That I shrink from the call, like, “Yeah, you’re right. I don’t have any right to be doing this.” And I’ve never claimed to have it all together. It’s not like I claim that. Definitely we are still struggling along. I have to live the principles I teach every day, and when I do, they help me. And when I don’t, then I struggle. I totally, a hundred percent agree. It’s just—all that you and I are doing is trying to proclaim the message we feel in our hearts. That’s really what this is fundamentally about. And I talk about that in the book. All these people that I studied—it’s fascinating—because they always end up talking about a message they feel they’re called to convey from God. They’re messengers. And messengers don’t have to have it all figured out. And they don’t have to have all the answers, but you’re accountable for the message that you feel called to. So I have to deliver it or I’m not going to be able to live with myself. I’m going to feel like I’ve fallen down on what I was meant to do. Suzy: Naming the Fight and The Screwtape Letters Suzy: I love what you said about the adversary. And do you know the book that helped me so much identify the adversary in my life? It’s C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters. Audrey: So good. So, so good. Suzy: And that being said, in 2 Timothy, Paul does speak very frankly to Timothy, his son in the faith, and really explains to him that the three things that we really contend against as believers are the world, our flesh, and then it’s the adversary. It’s the devil. Audrey: Yes. Yeah. Suzy: Those are the three things. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: I find that very helpful to call it out. Like, what happened here? Was it the world? Was I tempted to fall into something I shouldn’t have? Was it my own flesh—most of the time that’s it—was it my own flesh? Or was it truly the adversary? Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: What was it? So anyway—Screwtape Letters. So good. Audrey Shares Favorite Quotes and Transitions to Parenting Audrey: Okay. Before we finish, I want to do two things. Because so much of this really spoke to me, I’m just going to read a couple of my favorite quotes. Suzy: Oh, okay. Audrey: And then I want to talk for a minute before we finish about the parenting sections and your journey in teaching parents before this all came about, and your journey in parenting your own adult children. And maybe, as we finish up, some counsel for empty nesters—but maybe other moms too—about what it’s important to remember. And then of course, I’m just going to say it again: just go get her book. Even if you’re not there—get the book. You don’t have to do all the journaling. You could, you couldn’t, but it’s going to help you think about some things that you should be thinking about now that I wish I would’ve been thinking about 10 years ago. Okay. One favorite quote: “Remember, just like any other season of life, the blessings of the empty nest accompany the challenges.” And I know that’s born from all of the pain you’ve seen in so many of the women that you’ve worked with, that you’ve influenced, because there’s so much about it that seems so painful. I mentioned to you—I don’t know if I mentioned this or not—but I was recently on a podcast and we started talking about our families. And before we got on, he mentioned to me what so many people say: that they have grown children, and those grown children aren’t doing some of the things they want them to do, and his wife is constantly beating herself up about it. And that is such a common tale. And when my first child started telling me they were struggling with their faith, I turned it inward. I just beat myself up like mad and tried to think of all the reasons it was my fault and all the things I had done wrong—even though we read scripture and prayed daily and went to church every week. It’s not like we didn’t do the things. It’s not like I wasn’t trying to set a good example. And their journey is their journey. But again, I really related. And it’s so simple, but it’s so profound and important to remember that there are so many blessings that accompany those challenges, that heartache. And frankly, maybe a lot of those blessings are the personal growth that you’re going to experience as you work through some of your things—because that’s what’s happened to me. And then another favorite quote is in this great expectations section—because that resonated with me: “I’m just going to come right out and say it: unrealistic expectations will steal your joy.” Suzy: Steal your joy. Audrey: I talk so often about how comparison steals your joy. It’s like a quote we use in the Academy. We talk about that—stop comparing, you mentioned that—stop blaming, all those things. But I really didn’t get it until the last few years how much I was setting up expectations without even realizing I was doing it—how I was laying those on other people in very unfair ways. And it was stealing the joy that we could have been having in our relationship. My own personal—anyway. Nailed it. Totally nailed it. So those were a couple of my favorite quotes. Suzy on Expectations, Faith, and Parenting Adult Children Suzy: Thank you. Yes—expectations and disappointment are huge. I’m actually really working on a blog post about that right now that’s going to come out in the next couple weeks on emptynestblessed.com, because I felt like I needed to write more about this. We are expectant. And I love that hymn, “Come Thou Long-Expected Jesus.” And we are taught to be expectant. There’s so much prophecy in scripture—being expectant. I do think that is in our hearts. And the Lord baked that into our DNA, and we are to be expectant. We look forward to heaven. We have expectations of what heaven will be like. It’s not going to be like what we think, but we still live in that hope of expectancy—of Christ’s return, or of our life in heaven, or whatever it is. So I do think we’re hardwired to be expectant— Audrey: And we’re future-oriented beings. Suzy: We are. And that’s for a reason. And that’s a good thing—to have goals, to be intentional, to think about the future. So expectations—when they are accompanied by disappointment—that’s when they can get you in trouble as a parent. So I talk about: be very careful about not putting expectations on your children. Your job is to really say, “Lord, here they are. We did our best. You are right with us. We tried to be obedient sinners raising little sinners, and we give them to You, and You love them more than we do. You have a plan, and I trust You.” And so it’s really an exercise in your own faith and trusting. And really, if you’re going to have expectations—let me tell you—put them on yourself. And I talk in the book about: I have two expectations for myself every time my kids come home. One is that our home would be joyful and fun. That they would feel welcomed—loved, loved on, hugged—happy, excited to be home. I’m not going to compete with the in-laws for who gets you at holidays. I’m just going to make our house super fun so you want to come. That’s one expectation I have for myself. The second is: when my kids come, they will leave loved up. They will feel encouraged. They will feel happy. They will feel heard, listened to. I will not go in with my own agenda. I’m not going to go in with my own agenda. I’m going to be others-oriented. And I’m going to support them and be all about them—not shift the focus onto myself, but instead be in that support mode, being that joy booster in their life, not the joy buster that’s critical, or gives suggestions or advice that is not asked for. Audrey: Yeah. It’s inappropriate. Suzy: And let me tell you—you’ve got to be kind of hard on yourself when you become a parent of adult children, because you cannot—I cannot say this strongly enough, and I’m trying to be cute and fun about everything—but hear me now on this: You cannot continue parenting your children the way you always parented them. You are not to give advice without being asked. Do not give a suggestion, because that’s just another form of advice. Because they hear that as: you are incapable. You do not have the ability to handle this. I have to, and I don’t trust you. Instead, it should be: “I feel like, with all you’ve gone through in your life, you have the ability to figure this out.” And what you can bring to them as a parent—what their tribe, their friends don’t bring—is you raised them. We were with our daughter a couple weeks ago and she was giving me this example: something happened with this friend and she tried to be a really great friend, but she wasn’t really reciprocating, and she wasn’t sure if she went too far. And I said, “You know what? You have always been a good friend.” And I was like, “Back in second grade you…” And she was just like, “Really?” She didn’t remember that happened. So you can tell these stories from their childhood and bring into the conversation: “Yeah, you were always like this. You were always fun-loving,” or “You were always so empathetic to others.” And yes—you are a good friend. So in the book, at one point, I give 50 traits you can encourage in your adult kids. And so I said to her, “You’re a good friend, and you are always a good friend. It is good to be a friend of Becca’s. It is good. And I hope I’m a friend of yours, honey, because you are such a good friend.” And so that’s the second expectation. When they’re with you, they leave built up—feeling stronger, empowered, prayed for, loved on. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And so expectations—put them right here. Take them to the Lord and put them on yourself. Do not put them on your children. He’s theirs—I mean, they’re His. And He is more than capable. And if you keep taking them back, I would challenge you to work through that with the Lord, because it is a faith issue. It is a lack of trust in Him and His sovereignty and His love. And you need to work through that. So that said, I’m not perfect. You’re not perfect. We all struggle with that. When we’re with our kids, we see things and we do tend to blame ourselves—whether it’s as simple as, “I didn’t teach them to be a very good cook,” or you see self-centeredness or impulsive speech or something that you’re like, “Darn it, we worked on that. How did this happen?” And yet the Lord will work in their lives. And I’m sitting here before you saying I’m 60, and you’re sitting where you are, Audrey—much younger than me—but we can both say the Lord is still at work refining us. Audrey: Yes. Suzy: And refining is hard work and it’s painful, and He uses fire, and it’s humbling—but He’s refining us. So He has that same plan for your children. And you have to work—switching the way you parent. I’m telling you this strongly: you’re going to lose your children. You’ll lose them if you cannot change the way you parent and stop giving unsolicited advice. And guess what? If you do that with your grandkids and start talking to them about the way they parent, you’re going to lose the grandkids too. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And this is serious. This is serious as a heart attack. You’ve got to work on this. And do the work. Audrey’s Closing + How to Find Suzy Audrey: Yes. Amen. Amen and amen. Such good advice. So many great things. Ugh. I haven’t been able to finish it. I’m just going to keep going through it, doing the exercises—such beautiful advice. So, Suzy—where can our moms find you? Where can they get the book? What are some of your offerings? I know there’s a blog, there are other socials. Just tell us all the ways that they can be blessed by your ministry—which it really is a ministry. Suzy’s Resources and Where to Get the Book Suzy: Oh, thank you. I hope that it is. I hope all of life is our ministry, truly. And I think living with that mission-driven, ministry-driven mindset is so powerful. And He can use that. And I pray He does every day. Audrey: Yeah. Suzy: And I know He is using you, my friend. You can find me—my home base is emptynestblessed.com. When you get there, do not expect that you’re going to have some sort of deep conversation that we just had. You will find that, but you’ll also find the fun fall fashion. You will find my favorite beauty devices. You will find my travel adventures. You’ll find 68 great date night ideas for empty nesters. Audrey: Oh fun. I didn’t see that one. Suzy: Wow. That was on my Instagram today—five fun fall date night ideas for empty nesters. And then I offered a freebie that you can get, which is 68 great date night ideas for empty nesters. So you’ll see things that are for the total woman. And that does include parenting. It does include finding your purpose in the empty nest, but it also includes all these other things that we love so much—taking great care of our bodies, staying healthy and getting all your checkups and all those things. So emptynestblessed.com. You can sign up for my newsletter there. I do a Friday fun newsletter. We do have a lot of fun on Empty Nest Blessed. I will mostly tell stories about myself doing dumb stuff—stuff like we closed on our house last Monday. This is the house we built in 2004. We raised our kids in. I’m embarrassed to say that I was in there with my very manly husband or two very manly real estate agents, and I cried through the entire thing. Audrey: Aw. Suzy: Did not plan to. Didn’t think I was going to bawl through the entire thing. I mean like messy cry, not pretty. So I told that story in my newsletter this week. So I’m always telling crazy stories about myself that hopefully people feel better about how they are. Anyway, so sign up for my newsletter. I’m on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube: @EmptyNestBlessed. Audrey: Perfect. Suzy: Embarrassingly easy to find—@EmptyNestBlessed. Emptynestblessed.com. The book is emptynestblessed.com/book, or it’s on Amazon—audiobook read by me, or ebook, or hardback. Audrey: Nice. Suzy: Makes a great gift. But as you said, it’s new empty nesters all the way to longtime empty nest. Audrey: And honestly, it’s going to be a Christmas gift to several people I know. Suzy: Oh, thank you. Audrey: And in this case—I mean, I’m sure the audiobook is wonderful, but the hard copy’s great, because there’s journaling pages all the way through. I mean, I’m a hardback kind of a girl anyway. Suzy: I get it. Yeah. The audiobook does come with a workbook, so you will get that as well. Audrey: Oh, nice. Suzy: Well, and so that’s a helpful thing, I hope. Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Final Thanks and Goodbye Audrey: Suzy, it’s been a joy. I am so grateful that you came today and spent the time to talk to us and share your wisdom. There’s so much more we can learn. Go follow her blog and get her newsletter so you can participate in all of the wisdom that she has to share. So grateful for you and for your work. Thank you so much for being with us today. Suzy: More to come with you, my friend. We will do some fun stuff—we’ve already talked about—on emptynestblessed.com. Audrey: Yeah, that’ll be great. Suzy: See you there. And praising the Lord for a sweet friendship with you. Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. Grateful. Suzy: Yeah. Audrey: I feel the exact same way. Thank you.
EP 138 Beyond "Just a Mom" to a Mission-Driven Mother
Have you ever felt like you’re “just a mom”… even though you’re doing one of the most important jobs in the world? In this episode of The Mission-Driven Mom Podcast, Audrey Rindlisbacher speaks to the quiet identity loss so many mothers experience and why modern motherhood often leaves women feeling unseen, depleted, and unsure of who they are becoming. This episode explores: • why so many moms feel invisible and exhausted • how culture and education failed to prepare women for motherhood • what it really means to move beyond “just a mom” • the six traits of a mission-driven mother • how to reclaim purpose, confidence, and identity without leaving motherhood If you love your children but know there must be more than burnout and self-sacrifice, this conversation is for you. Listen now and begin the journey from “just a mom” to a mission-driven mother. ___________________________________________________________________ Join Us for Mothers of Creation We want you to be a Mother of Creation ALL YEAR LONG! So we're offering something special we've never done before... "Sneak Peek" Workshop & Private Community! From now until the September event, when you sign up you'll have access to this in-depth introduction to the Mothers of Creation content and you'll be mentored all year in a private community as you learn and practice some of the principles we'll cover at the event. Learn More Here ___________________________________________________________________ AI GENERATED TRANSCRIPT Introduction Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. Did you know that one in four moms feel they’ve lost their identity outside of motherhood and feel like they’re “just a mom”? This feeling increases the longer they are parents, and there’s a much larger majority—79 to 94 percent—who feel that their identity beyond motherhood is minimized or invisible. Many mothers struggle with putting themselves last, with a third of the group deprioritizing self-care, leading to burnout where their identity feels reduced to “just mom.” If you sometimes feel alone in this journey—if you feel like you are not affirmed by the world around you for the incredibly hard work that you do as a mom—if you don’t know how to fix this for yourself, how to move forward in a way that allows you to show up with optimism and energy for yourself and your family, and also feel like you’re making headway as a woman—if you worry that your own hopes and aspirations are getting lost in your motherhood—then this podcast is for you. This is for you, Mission-Driven Mom, and especially this episode about going beyond “just a mom” to becoming a mission-driven mother. A Look Back: Why Modern Motherhood Feels Empty Last week, we talked about why modern motherhood can make us feel empty. I shared three reasons why that’s the case, the problems it causes, and how it makes us feel. I also gave you some solutions for how to move forward. Today, I want to tell you three things. If you feel like you’re “just a mom,” if you feel like your identity as a woman is getting lost in the motherhood shuffle, if you are not making your needs known or acting on them, if you aren’t sure how to move forward—if you are like Valerie, who I quoted last week, one of our students who said she had a wonderful, beautiful family but wasn’t happy and didn’t know why—if those things resonate with you, then there are three really important things that you absolutely need to know. Leanna’s Story and the Power of Becoming a Creator Before I get into that, if you tuned in last week, you heard a short story about Leanna and how learning to be a creator—understanding drama and teaching that to her family—literally revolutionized her home. I’m not exaggerating. She shared a beautiful story about how this work restructured her relationships, elevated her motherhood, and empowered her children and her entire family with a shared language. Announcing the Return of the MDM Celebration: Mothers of Creation Because of stories like that, we are reinstituting our MDM Celebration. We are bringing it back. This year’s theme is Mothers of Creation. It will take place in the fall, but we’re starting the conversation now, and we don’t want you to miss it. I want you to be there on Thursday the 29th—coming up very soon—for a workshop. After that, you’ll be added to an exclusive community. This will be a sneak peek for the event. From now on, anyone who signs up for the Celebration event will be able to attend this live sneak-peek workshop or view the recording, and then be part of this mentored, exclusive community all year long. Why We’re Starting the Work Now Throughout the year, we’ll do a drip experience on concepts and principles from the event. We’ll practice them. We’ll deep dive. One of the reasons we decided to do this is because as I was reviewing all the content we’re going to cover in the fall, I realized there is so much. I kept thinking, “This is such an important concept—we could practice this for months—but I only have time to gloss over it.” I can teach the concept, but then we have to move on. If you’re part of this exclusive community—if you attend the workshop, learn the kickoff material, and then engage in the community all year—you will literally be becoming a Mother of Creation throughout the year. And it will culminate in our in-person event, which I believe is the last Saturday in September. So go to themissiondrivenmom.com, head to the conference page, and sign up. The sooner, the better—because every day you wait is a day you’re not being mentored, supported, and lifted by this community of women, and a day you’re not becoming a Mother of Creation. What We’ll Cover in the Workshop Here are a few things we’re going to cover in the workshop. We’ll go over the origin of the Drama Triangle, which is actually fascinating. We’ll talk about what the Drama Triangle is and why it matters so much. We’ll help you understand the victim role in particular—how you show up as a victim in everyday life and what that looks like. Then we’ll talk about the different types of victims. This is a key element that we will not have much time to explore in September, so I’m especially excited for you to get a jump start on this. We’ll talk about the types of victims, why they matter, and which one you tend to show up as. We’ll discern how that becomes your way of being and give you the antidote—so you know how to get yourself out of victimhood. Then Lindsey Wright—who we all know is one of the most incredible mentors in the world—will guide you all year inside the community. You’ll practice these concepts, read together, discuss them, and grow. It’s going to be incredible. Think of it as a mini Academy experience—small, digestible pieces of information you can practice all year, with community support around you. What This Experience Will Do for You This experience will do three things for you. It will jumpstart the content so you’re engaging with it all year long. It will give you a deeper dive into the material we’ll cover at the event. And it will provide mentoring and community support so you can become the creator you want to be. Going Beyond “Just a Mom”: A Personal Story Now, as we talk about what it means to go beyond being “just a mom” and step into becoming a mission-driven mother, I want to share a personal story—one I think many of you may relate to. Hopefully you haven’t experienced it the way I did, but I believe you’ll understand the feelings behind it. To the mom who sees herself as “just a mom,” here are the three things you need to know. My Early Marriage and Motherhood Reality As I’ve shared many times—because it’s part of my story, and it was a very painful part of my story—my husband struggled with a pornography addiction. It was particularly severe early in our marriage. Two weeks after we were married, I had surgery, and the doctor told us to get pregnant right away. My pregnancies were brutal. I was completely laid up. I lost a lot of weight. I was hospitalized with my second pregnancy. It improved somewhat with the last two, but overall, they were incredibly difficult. On our first anniversary, I was eight months pregnant, and we continued having babies. My husband went straight into real estate—a 100 percent commission-based career—so our income was very unstable as he learned the industry. Meanwhile, I had surgery, got pregnant immediately, became very sick, quit school, and quit work. I had spent several years at a good university, but I never finished my degree. I didn’t have strong marketable skills, and I didn’t want to leave my babies anyway. The Accumulation of Pressure We already had one child, and I didn’t want them to grow up alone. It mattered deeply to me that my children be close and become friends. So we kept going. Our children ended up being spaced about two to three years apart because the pregnancies were so hard. At the same time, finances were difficult. Our marriage was difficult. Becoming a new mom was difficult. And both of our extended families were struggling. My parents were separated and going through a very hard time. Blaine’s parents divorced during our early years of marriage. It was layer upon layer of difficulty. Eventually, I reached a breaking point. I felt depleted. I felt brain-dead. I felt overwhelmed. I hit a wall and realized how unprepared I was—to manage my emotions, my thoughts, my time, my finances, extended family relationships, and the addiction we were dealing with in our marriage. The Breaking Point One day—honestly, I don’t even remember what triggered it—I think Blaine may have acted out or something had happened between us. He came out one morning ready for work, we exchanged words, and I followed him into the garage. When he turned around and questioned me, I slapped him across the face. That was the only time I’ve ever struck someone, and it was a huge wake-up call for both of us. He was stunned. He just stood there staring at me. I couldn’t believe what I had done. He got in the car and left. The First Step Toward Change To his credit, he loved God deeply. He loved me. He loved our children. And he truly wanted things to be better. When he arrived at the office, he got on his knees, begged God for guidance, opened the phone book, and called a therapist. That therapy wasn’t particularly helpful. Many of the therapies, support groups, and books we tried weren’t helpful either. I searched relentlessly for answers, and nothing seemed to work. Then I found this education. That’s when everything began to change. Transformation Over Time Within a few years of that moment—of slapping Blaine across the face in utter desperation—I was running a book club in my home with over fifty people attending every week. Our marriage was in a much better place. We were in our own home. Our finances had improved. We still had rough patches. We still had growth to do—and we still do—but within a few short years, that transformation occurred. The book club led to building a homeschool organization, which eventually served over a hundred families. Why I’m Telling You This I’m telling you this because you might look at me now and think, “Well, Audrey has a podcast, she built an academy, she mentors women—I could never do that.” First of all, that might not even be your calling or where your gifts lie. But that’s not the point. The point is that the things we teach women are the same things that changed me. I know they work because they transformed my life. Over time, those tools led to other projects, and eventually to founding The Mission-Driven Mom. Today, we’ve helped over 600 women. The Three Things You Need to Know And what I want you to know—I’m going to tell you these three things because no matter how stuck you feel, and no matter how much you feel like “just a mom” right now, there are three things that are absolutely true that you need to know. Truth #1: Motherhood Is Courageous The first one that you need to know is a quote by Gilda Radner. She said, “Motherhood is the biggest gamble in the world. It is the glorious life force. It’s huge and scary. It’s an act of infinite optimism.” I’m going to read it one more time: “Motherhood is the biggest gamble in the world. It is the glorious life force. It’s huge and scary. It’s an act of infinite optimism.” If you listened to a podcast that I did recently for people who are thinking about not having children, you heard in that podcast a lot that I have to say about how courageous it is to be a mother. It is one of the most courageous things that you can ever do. I want to read you some things that I wrote about you. You took the risk of engaging in the messy business of raising children. Only you know how incredible and frightening this journey is. You give it your all. You are determined to see your children become individuals of faith and virtue and character and courage, and you are willing to sacrifice anything to build the best world possible for your children to inherit. I know that that’s who you are, and I know that what you need and want is balance—because you want to be an excellent mother, and you want personal development. You want self-acceptance and courage. You want to be seen and matter and belong, but you also want to grow and thrive and succeed. And all of these desires are the kinds of things that we open the door for at The Mission-Driven Mom. Even if you just listened to this podcast and read the book and got serious—and you can get the book for free at The Mission-Driven Mom—and got serious about living those 7 Laws of Life mission and got serious about being a truth seeker, you can become more than you are. You can find that balance. A mission-driven mom is a movement of mothers who are working together to create a better world for our children and grandchildren by gaining the education which we never had, which ennobles us to lead ourselves and our families and our communities with truth. That is what we’re doing here. We are linking arms and we are working together. We are gaining the right kind of education, which we never had. We are pushing back on the culture that tells us that what we do isn’t of value, and we are ennobled by these choices to lead ourselves, to lead our families, and to lead our communities. What It Means to Be Ennobled When I started thinking about these concepts—and we have some rebranding coming for The Mission-Driven Mom, which I’m super excited about, and we’re going to talk more in detail about what that branding means—the word ennoble is part of that rebranding, and I want to talk to you about what being ennobled means. To ennoble someone is to lead them to greater dignity or nobility of character. It means to elevate them—make them more honorable, dignified, or excellent. Often through a great deed or by imparting a higher moral quality. It signifies making someone better or more worthy of admiration, whether through suffering, talent, or virtuous actions—elevating their character or status. That is what we do for each other at The Mission-Driven Mom. We ennoble each other. The things that we read, the actions that we take, the accountability partners that we have, the workshops that we attend, the discussions that we engage in, the community service work, the read-alouds with our children, the things that we do in the community, in the MDM Academy, on this podcast, in our events—they are all structured to ennoble all of us, for all of us to be elevated in these beautiful, rich ways. And if we are going to be ennobled to lead ourselves and our families and our communities with truth, it’s important to remember that truth is the quality of being in accord with reality. It’s what is actual, genuine, and honest—the opposite of falsehood and deception. This is who you are. So the first thing I want to tell you is: you are this kind of woman. I know that’s what’s in you. I know those are the things that you want and need. I know those are the things that you’re looking for. I know that you’re like us and you want to be ennobled, and you want that balance—but I also know that you already have a high moral quality because you’re here, because you’re listening, because you’re seeking, and because you want more. And there’s that hope that things could be better. And that hope comes from knowing that there is truth, and that it can make us free. And as we are truth seekers, we can find the truth, and it will make us free. Truth #2: You Can Become More Than You Feel Right Now So the second thing I want to tell you is the result of that—of knowing the quality of woman that you are and the desires that are in your heart. You may feel just like a mom, but you can do all sorts of things that right now might feel impossible to do—but you really can. And I’m going to list some of these things that I have seen women do, that I have done myself, and that I know that you can do. You can learn to solve your significant problems. You can restore your closest relationships. You can gain deep self-knowledge and self-acceptance. You can love and like yourself. You can link arms with moms and make a difference. You can discern the truth in our confusing culture. You can be enlightened and lifted out of your problems and into your dreams and potential. You can become the example you want to be for your children. You can help us restore virtue to our communities. You can make unique and meaningful contributions. You can discover your unique gifts and use them to serve. You can belong and flourish in a community of noble women. I know that you can. I have seen hundreds of women do this—women just like you and just like me. In that moment where you’re slapping your husband across the face because you’re absolutely at your total and complete wits’ end—you have no idea how to move forward in your life. You have no idea where the answers are. And I know there’s all kinds of garbage out there that’s telling you that it has the answers. And I know you’ve tried things, and some of them might have worked a little bit and some of them haven’t worked. And if you’re feeling like “just a mom” and you’re feeling discouraged, I want to tell you that you are an incredible woman, and you can become more. If you have the right tools and resources, you can become the kind of woman I know you want to be. Truth #3: You Can Become a Mission-Driven Mom The third thing I want to tell you is that as you take actions to be a truth seeker, as you plug into the 7 Laws of Life mission, as you seek truth, as you grab classics, as you engage in self-knowledge and self-discovery—you will be moving toward the six traits of a mission-driven mother, and you can become a truly mission-driven mom. What is a mission-driven mom? How do we go from “just a mom” to a mission-driven mom? We understand that our dreams are the most noble part of us. That the things that we want are attainable. We latch onto that hope and we take steps in faith, and we take the actions to live the 7 Laws of Life mission that help us to become mission-driven mothers. Here are the six traits of a mission-driven mom. The Six Traits of a Mission-Driven Mom Trait #1: She Draws Worth From God Number one, she is connected to God and draws her sense of value and worth from Him. You are not taking the cue from your own terrible self-talk—because I’ve had all the terrible self-talk, and I know the way that we talk to ourselves, and it’s a bunch of lies. You’re not going to draw your worth from your spouse, or from your friends, or from our culture, or from your children or their choices, or from your talents, or from the money that you earn, or from where you are in your career—none of that matters. Your worth is being drawn from the infinite Being who created you, who knows and loves you, who accepts you completely and entirely, and loves you completely and entirely as you are in this moment—and who wants to walk with you on a journey of self-discovery, where you figure out how much more you can be, because you’re doing it for you and you’re doing it to be the example that your children need. If you need to say that you’re doing it for your children, go ahead and say that. I’ve said it plenty of times—because they need a mom who’s on fire. They need a mom who knows who she is, who leads herself and her family, and who leads in her community using her gifts with confidence, who has like-minded friends with like-minded families, who links arms with them and goes out there and confidently shares truth. Trait #2: She Has Confidence Rooted in Truth So the second trait of a mission-driven mom is that she has confidence in herself and her choices because of the truths that she learns and lives. You do not have to have all the answers all the time in order to be a great, confident leader—in order to make decisions that you feel good about. You just need to understand what truth is. You need to know what principles are, and then know how to discover and lean into them, and you will be able to make decisions and move forward and lead yourself and others. Trait #3: She Is Intentional With Time and Energy The third trait is that mission-driven moms are intentional with their time and energy, and they utilize them to love themselves and others. We talk about this a lot in the Academy—that love is an action. It’s something that you choose to do, and the feelings of love follow the actions of love. And so no matter how you feel about yourself or someone else in your life, you choose love—and you understand that everything that you do in the name of love, or that other people do in the name of love, is not loving. So you pay the price to become acquainted with the true nature of love, and you love by living principles, and you’re intentional in using your time and energy to love. Mother Teresa said, “Our mission is to convey God’s love,” and these truths are His truths. And so as we disseminate them and align our lives with them, we are actually following God and partnering with Him in our lives. And then it enables us to love properly, instead of doing all kinds of unhealthy things or having unhealthy things done to us and not knowing what to do about them. Trait #4: She Develops and Uses Her Gifts The fourth trait: a mission-driven mom knows her greatest gifts. She actively develops them, and she uses them in the service of others. You can do this. I was on so many podcasts the last few months, and often the host or hostess would say at the end, “Well, what do you want to leave with our audience?” And I almost always said the same kind of thing: You are way more gifted than you think you are. Because I was where you are. I had 15 years of formal education—and I said this last week—and I just didn’t have any idea what I was good at. I knew I had some special interests. I loved studying art history, but I wasn’t an artist. I loved listening to great music, but I wasn’t a musician. And I wasn’t a great accountant, and I didn’t think I could be a great attorney—so what was there for me to be and do? And there are so many things. That’s why there are so many self-discovery activities all throughout the MDM Academy—because it’s so important that you know yourself really well. Mission-driven moms know what they’re good at. They’re developing their talents and using them to serve. And can you imagine the rich example this sets for your children? Like, motherhood is awesome and womanhood is awesome and adulthood is awesome. And sometimes my parents fight and sometimes my mom cries, but she picks herself back up and then she’s stronger for the trial, and she figures out new ways to problem solve. I know that’s what you want. That’s who you want to be. That’s what you want to give your family. Trait #5: She Lives With Purpose and Goals The fifth trait is feeling a strong sense of purpose and fulfillment every day as you work toward predetermined goals. This is where, you know, being a mother—I don’t know, can anything outshine that sense of purpose that motherhood brings? Probably not. But it doesn’t fill up every single space in our hearts and minds. We have a responsibility to do that for ourselves. We have a responsibility to ourselves—to know ourselves and to find deeper meaning and purpose by setting and working toward goals, meaningful goals that enrich us and the people around us. And the Academy also helps you do that. We talk a lot about not only finding and writing actionable principles, but we talk a lot about application of principles and tool sets for living them out—for what we call practicing principles. And as you learn how to find principles and practice them, then your goals become very obvious, and you work toward living those principles more fully. Trait #6: She Brings Her Family Along The sixth trait of a mission-driven mom is that she teaches her family what she’s learning as she grows and leads them on their mission-driven journey together. She understands the importance—like Leanna from last week’s podcast, and like so many other testimonials we’ve received from our moms—that you bring your family on this journey. That’s why we have read-alouds in Level One—so that you can pick a really awesome book off the shelf, and we know that it’s saturated with the principles that you’ve learned, and you can, through storytelling and bonding and snuggling and time together, pass those principles on to your children and create discussion points and all of that. But in the end, a mission-driven mom continues to teach her family. I remember being at an event a few years ago with one of our moms who was, I think, partway through Level Two or something. And at this event, it was fascinating—because one of her biggest takeaways was that she had not been teaching her family all of the things she had been learning. And so her big plan—her way of having greater purpose and being more intentional with her time and energy and loving them more—was to go home and teach them more of what she’d learned. That’s what mission-driven moms do. Closing Encouragement and Invitation So I want you to know three things: that you are courageous, incredible, and that those deep desires that you have to chase your potential while you level up as a mom are the best part of you. They’re noble, and I know that that’s what you desire. The second thing I want you to know is that you can do that. It’s not just that that’s what you want. It’s not just that even though you feel like “just a mom” and you feel stuck, and you just hope that you could become that—you can. I have watched women do all of those things. You can. And I want you to know that those six traits of a mission-driven mom are the goalpost for you. That’s where we’re all headed, and we’re all doing those things—inculcating those traits into our character line upon line, bit by bit, day by day. That’s the aspiration that we’re all striving toward, and we become ennobled and we ennoble each other as we strive to become a more mission-driven mom. And so as you set those six traits in front of you, and as you make a determination to become not “just a mom,” but a mission-driven mom, it will transform you. So as we finish up here, I want to end with reinforcing again that yes, you can become a noble, virtuous, intentional wife and mother. Yes, you can be a great mother and woman. Yes, you can put yourself and your family first. Yes, you can discover and use your gifts to serve in your community. And yes—you’re the only one that needs to change. And what’s so great about that is that you’re the only one that you can change. And you have so much more power than you think you do. You can transform yourself and your family—and believe it or not, your community. I hope that those words of encouragement sink down into your heart. Listen to this again and again if it helps you. And remember that we believe in you. We know what an incredible woman you are, and we are here to help and support you in any and all of the ways that we possibly can to help you become more of that mission-driven mother that you want to be. Make sure, if you’ve not already signed up, that you head over to themissiondrivenmom.com, go to the conference page, and sign up so that I can see you at the workshop on the 29th, and you can become part of that community and become more of a Mother of Creation—more of a creator in your own life—all throughout this whole year. It’s going to be a phenomenal journey, and I don’t want you to miss any of it. Thank you so much for joining me here today. Next Week: Interview Preview I have great news. Next week, you can look forward to an interview with a woman named Suzy Mighell, who I was very honored to meet. This one is especially for empty nesters, but I want every one of you to listen carefully, because I wish I would’ve known what she was teaching 10 years ago, and I wish I would’ve known how to prepare better for moving toward adult children and empty nesting—because I was not well prepared enough. And it has been a bumpy road for me. And we’re going to smooth that road with this interview. You can go grab her book as well: Empty Nest Blessed. You can check her out—her name is Suzy Mighell. We will be talking next week all about how to prepare for that time period, what’s so beautiful and rich about it, and how you can continue to level up as a woman and as a mother all the rest of your life. Looking forward to that discussion with her. I will see you then.
EP 137: Why Modern Motherhood Leaves Us Empty
Modern motherhood can feel like a loop: endless meals, endless messes, endless decisions… and somehow, you end the day feeling more empty than when you started. If you’ve ever wondered, “Is this all?” This episode will put language to what you’re carrying, and give you a real path forward. In today’s podcast, I walk you through three specific reasons modern motherhood leaves moms empty and the solutions that actually work. You’ll also hear personal stories (including my homeschooling journey and what it taught me about confidence, truth, and courage), plus practical, actionable steps you can take immediately, starting with what you read, what you surround yourself with, and how you begin the journey of self-discovery with your children beside you. Important invitation: If you’re coming to MDM Celebration in Utah on Saturday, September 26, your ticket now includes something powerful: ✨ a live sneak peek workshop on January 29 ✨ and a mentored community that carries you all the way to the event Grab your ticket and join us (and invite your sisters, friends, mom, grandma, nieces—everyone who needs shared language and real tools). Go to themissiondrivenmom.com and click Conference. And tell me in the comments: Which of the three are you working on first: culture, education, or self-discovery? ___________________________________________________________ 📚 Recommended Reads Cure for The Common Life by Max Lucado ___________________________________________________________ 💛 Join us for the Mothers of Creation Conference, Sneak Peek Call, & Mentoring Community ___________________________________________________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Introduction: Why Modern Motherhood Feels Heavy Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, the author of The Mission Driven Life, and the founder of The Mission Driven Mom. I am so excited for you to join me today. We are going to talk about a topic that’s a little bit heavy, one that weighs on our hearts as mothers: why modern motherhood leaves us empty. And I have some really important things to talk to you about—three specific reasons why modern motherhood leaves us empty. I’ve also got some results of that emptiness and some solutions for you. And we’re going to get into that in just a minute. I want to tell you a couple of personal stories, tell you about some of our students’ experiences, and give you some tasks—some actionable steps you can take—when we’re done here. Announcement: MDM Celebration, Workshop, and Community But first, I have to tell you about this opportunity I don’t want you to miss. If you’ve been around for very long, you know that for a few years we did what’s called the MDM Celebration, and it’s been in Utah and it’s been in Texas. We’ve reintroduced it. It’s going to be in Utah again. The venue there is fantastic, and we have quite a large following all along the West Coast, so we’re going to be back in Utah on September 26th—that Saturday. We started selling tickets, and they’ve been selling well, and I’m super excited to see you there. But we added something additional, and some of you may not know this, so I want to make sure you’re aware of it. We have added a sneak peek workshop and a year-long community. This is a mentored community that’s going to be available from the moment you sign up all the way through the event in September. This is important because as Mothers of Creation, it’s not just going to happen overnight. We have so much content, and as I was going through it, I thought, wow—what if we could get a head start on this? What if we could start learning it now? What if we could be practicing some of the key concepts all throughout the year, becoming Mothers of Creation? Then when we get to the event, we’ll just hit the ground running and put our plans together. We’ll have our declaration statement—our creator declaration statement—all tied up by the end of the day, and you’ll be off to the races. So what we’ve done is this: on January 29th, Lindsay and I are going to give a workshop in our MDM community, and there’s a private, exclusive-access group in the community for those who are coming to the celebration. All you have to do is get a ticket to the celebration, and this workshop and the mentored community—all throughout the rest of the year leading up to the event—are available to you. Some of the things we’re going to cover in this workshop are the origins of the drama triangle, what drama is and why it matters, how drama shows up in your everyday life, and the types of victims. This is really unique. I don’t know anyone else who teaches this, aside from a few places where you can get a little bit of information in the TED community, but we’ve put our own spin on it. We’ve also come up with antidotes. We’re going to help you identify the type of victim you show up as, how you show up as that type of victim, the antidote for that, and how to snap out of victimhood. Then you’re going to be in this mentored community with other attendees. You’ll meet them, collaborate with them, and be mentored. Lindsay is going to mentor that group for the rest of the year and take you through additional content in the community. You do not want to miss it. I’ll put the description below the podcast, or you can go to themissiondrivenmom.com, click on “Conference,” and sign up so you don’t miss that Thursday night, January 29th workshop. If for some reason you can’t make it live, don’t worry—it’s recorded, so you can hop into the community anytime. Whenever you sign up for the event, you can watch the recording and join the community. And you are going to want your girlfriends, your sisters, your mother, and your grandmother to participate in this opportunity. It will give you shared language, help you support each other, and help you really infuse your home with a creator mindset. Student Story: Leanna and the Power of Shared Language I want to tell you about one of our students, Leanna, and what she shared with us a few years ago. Of course, she had a deep dive in creator orientation, as well as many other awesome principles in the Academy, so she’s coming from that perspective. But we are covering this content at this event. Here’s what she said. She said it’s given us a common language. She’s talking about the Academy and understanding drama and creator orientation. She said the principle that is the opposite of victim is creator. It blew my mind wide open, and it blew my relationships wide open with my children. Just the other day, I was having a hard day. I was tired, stressed, under pressure, and I was being impatient with my children—and they could feel it. My oldest came to me and said, “Okay, Mom, I want to create right now. I want to be a creator.” Why could her son say that? Because she had been teaching them the principles. She had taught her family how to be creators instead of victims. Her son said, “I want to be kind and find someone to serve. I’m going to give you a big hug.” He came over, gave me a hug, and asked, “Can I make you some breakfast?” I said yes. What was so powerful about that—this is still Leanna talking—was that it was really sweet, of course, but the power behind it was that I had learned that principle and that language, and I had taught it to my kids. It gave our whole family a common language we could use. They knew I wasn’t perfect. I could talk to them about my struggles, and then they could come help and serve me when I needed it. Right away, it melted me. I thought, I’m being a victim right now, and because I’m being a victim, I’m also being a persecutor to everyone around me. Instantly, I thought, okay, how am I going to create? I hugged my son back and said, “I’m going to make breakfast with you.” We turned on music, had a dance party in the kitchen, and it changed the entire day. That’s the power. Every day I’m trying to apply those principles, and it’s been really life-changing. Setting the Stage: Why Mothers Feel Empty Alright, let’s talk for the next few minutes about why modern motherhood is leaving mothers empty. I was reading an article the other day, and I want to read you just the first part because it really sets the stage. This is from the blog of Sarah E. Frazer. “As we left the kids with my parents and in-laws—we now have to divide them up, since we have five kids—I felt a sense of relief, like a burden was being lifted off my shoulders. My husband and I were going out of town without the kids. Freedom. We both giggled like newlyweds. As we drove off, we spent our vacation sleeping in each morning, relaxing by the pool, and talking with no interruptions. I didn’t have to cut up food or get five other plates ready before sitting down to my cold meal. When we wanted to just sit, I could close my eyes and enjoy the quiet without having to keep an eye on a little one for seven days. We enjoyed talking to each other, reading, and eating together in peace. Only, that’s not my regular life. In fact, my house is pretty loud and crazy in this season right now.” Motherhood is not for the faint of heart. Amen. For you new moms out there, I feel you. The routine of it all is enough to make our hearts restless. Did we really sign up for this day after day? The same seemingly empty tasks feel incomplete, leaving us feeling empty. Endless meals, dirty clothes, and constant decisions can make us feel useless. All we want is an escape. I’ve felt this. I’ve been guilty of surfing the internet, flipping through social media, and watching pointless videos just to escape the moment. Motherhood can leave me empty. The natural tendency of my heart is to feel empty and immediately want to fill it—frantically. I look around thinking maybe buying more things, planning more trips, exercising, or having a job will fill the emptiness. But it doesn’t. That’s exactly what we’re talking about. And I’m going to give you three reasons why this is happening to modern women. It’s not that women in the past never felt emptiness or struggle, but there are specific things that have been taken from us—ways our culture has shifted—that are making it harder. Cultural Pressure and the Loss of Validation The culture is not proud of us. In fact, sometimes it thinks that we are not doing enough. Sometimes even our husbands think that if we don’t go out into the workforce and earn a lot of money, we are not doing our job. We are not doing enough. Now, not that you can’t be a working mom—it’s just that we feel unappreciated. We feel invalidated. And really, one of the only rewards for us is the love of our own children and the fulfillment we feel from doing that job. Sometimes we wonder if we’ve even done the right thing. We feel pressured to perform in the marketplace, earn money, or justify our choices because of what the feminist movement did to our culture. So the solution to this first problem is for us to link arms and change the narrative, and that’s what The Mission Driven Mom is doing. That’s our mission and message—that motherhood matters, and that we can link arms as we build principle-centered homes. We can also lift our culture, make it more principle-centered, and rewrite the story of what femininity is, what motherhood means, and why it matters so much. And we have a vested interest—maybe more than anybody else—because we know we are building the world our children will live in. So we can push back. We can reaffirm the incredible courage it takes to be a mother, how vital it is, and what it means to be the best mother you can be. I talked about this last week—what it does for you in so many meaningful ways. Student Story: Valerie and the “Problem That Has No Name” One of our students shared this—her name is Valerie Kinkcaid. This is what she said: “I’m almost done with Level One of the MDM Academy. I’m just finishing up the last little bit of it, and before I started, life was good. I had a good marriage and cute kids, but I wasn’t feeling happy, and I didn’t know why.” Again—that Betty Friedan “problem that has no name,” right? So what’s the prescription? If that’s the problem, what’s the prescription? We have to get the prescription right, and then we have to follow it if we want the results. Valerie goes on: “I had every reason to be happy, but I felt like there was something I needed to change, and I didn’t know what. I didn’t know where to start or what was wrong.” That’s exactly how women were feeling in the sixties. But now, going through Level One and learning things like the drama triangle and being in the box—and she lists several of the principles she learned—all of those things we teach in Level One have totally changed how I view myself. It’s changed everything, and it’s been a huge help for me. So we don’t say in the MDM Academy that you need to go get a job in order to feel fulfilled, in order to be proud of your motherhood, or in order to thrive as a woman and a mother—to be a mission-driven mom, which we’ll talk more about next week and being on that mission-driven journey. That’s just not what you need to do. And I know this is a shameless plug for the Academy, but it is—because we know it works. And even if you don’t join the Academy, I hope you’ll learn all about what being a mission-driven mom means. I hope you’ll go to the website, get the free audiobook, and come to our celebration to become a Mother of Creation. Personal Context: When Education Failed Me Now, before we talk about the second reason modern motherhood leaves us feeling empty, I want to give you some context about where I was. As I’ve shared on this podcast and in many other places, when I was a young mother of three small children, I was struggling in every conceivable way. My husband had a pornography addiction. We had one income, and it was sporadic. Both of our parents were divorcing or separated. There were extended family issues. I was trying to figure out how to be a mom to young children. Our finances were troubling. There were so many things in my life that felt incredibly overwhelming, and I didn’t know how to manage them. I remember sitting with myself one day, thinking, I just feel awful. I feel unmotivated. I don’t know how to do this right. I was angry. I was frustrated. I was overwhelmed. And something snapped. I realized in that moment: wait a minute—I went to fifteen years of formal education, and it did not prepare me for this moment. What in the world were we doing? Why was I in school all those years if it didn’t teach me how to be a wife, a mother, or a fulfilled individual? If it didn’t show me how to manage extended family relationships, finances, or career? What in the world? I felt so cheated. And then one thing led to another, and I started searching for answers. Discovering Liberal Education I searched for a year, and then I found liberal education. This is the story I always tell—my sister-in-law told me about this small college, and I went to their website. It listed all the readings. It said they were reading Plato. I thought, what in the world? I can’t believe I read Plato. That sounded so different from anything I had ever tried—and maybe something that might work. I didn’t know what else to try, so I went on that journey. I learned that liberal education used to be the go-to. It was always done—reading original writings, looking for true principles, focusing on the good, the true, and the beautiful, and virtue as the fundamental end of education. These educational truths were so rich and fulfilling. I found them as a mother of three, then four, then five, then six, and over time I earned a liberal arts bachelor’s degree and a liberal arts master’s degree. I’m incredibly grateful for that. But this education has been robbed. I could give you a whole history of American education and explain how Charles Eliot at Harvard, in 1899, introduced the elective system. Once he did that, all the other Ivy League schools followed suit, and eventually we lost the foundation of liberal arts. Even in the forties, people noticed it—C.S. Lewis noticed it. Mortimer Adler noticed it. Robert Hutchins noticed it. That’s why they created the Great Books of the Western World. The point is: you and I were robbed of this education. Not just formal education. Not just what we would have received in American schools. And I know not as many women went to university, but it didn’t matter, because education at younger ages used to be rich, intentional, and principle-centered. We were one of the first countries to institutionalize free education for children. But the context, the conversations, the Socratic method—we didn’t get it. And on top of that, we didn’t get proper training. The Loss of Preparation and Discernment There are many reasons for this. If you’ve ever read the book Laddie by Gene Stratton-Porter—who also wrote the Limberlost books—it’s her autobiography. She describes how, in the mid-1800s, girls in her family couldn’t even be courted by a man—let alone married—until their mother left home for a month and they ran the entire farm themselves. They had to prove they knew what they were doing. So here you have rich formal education—not about earning money, but becoming your best self—and practical training to succeed as a wife and mother at a much higher level. We have to try to get that back. The net result of losing this is that we weren’t raised with the skills to discern truth. And so motherhood feels inevitably overwhelming. We’re responsible for these little ones, but we don’t know how to recognize truth. We don’t know how to discern in this culture. We don’t know how to level ourselves up or put our families on a foundation of principles. So of course, the solution is education. I know that sounds crazy, but it’s true. You can train your mind. You can learn to live according to principles. Choosing Better Inputs Someone reached out to me just today and asked, “Where can I learn to live according to principles?” And I had to be honest—I don’t know where else you can get this. For twenty years, I’ve been learning, studying, practicing, teaching, and mentoring. Other women have joined me, and together we’ve built something truly special. But if you’re not ready yet, go grab a classic. Start asking better questions. Have conversations with the authors. Get my book, The Mission-Driven Life, the free audiobook, and start living those seven laws of life mission. Start reading better things. Surround yourself with what is true, good, and beautiful—right now, today. You can choose that every minute of your day. Read good children’s classics. The Narnia series. The Little House series. The Little Britches series. Mine them for truth. Read Little Women. Pay attention to the mothers. These are things you can do right now to uplevel your game. A Shift in Thinking Carolyn Marriott, one of our students, said this: “I’ve learned that I just need to think better and differently. Instead of trying to do more, I need to think differently and seek to understand and find truth.” That’s why it’s so important—if you don’t want modern motherhood to leave you feeling empty—you must change how you think. There’s a lot of good material out there about affirmations and positive thinking, and we cover that too. But this is deeper than that. Thinking critically. Analyzing well. Understanding the nature of truth. Knowing how to mine for it. That’s vital. Max Lucado’s Story: Discovering God-Given Gifts Max Lucado shares this story: “I recently met a 20-year-old who needed to hear this, just discharged from the military. He was pondering his future. He bore a square jaw, a forearm tattoo, and a common question. He didn’t know what to do with the rest of his life. As we shared a flight, he told me about his uncle, a New England priest. ‘What a great man,’ the ex-soldier sighed. ‘He helps kids and feeds the hungry. I’d love to make a difference like that.’ So I asked him the question of this chapter: What were some occasions when you did something you loved to do and did it well? He dismissed me at first. ‘Ah, what I love to do is stupid.’ ‘Try me,’ I invited. ‘I love to rebuild stuff.’ ‘What do you mean?’ He spoke of an old coffee table he found in the garage, seeing its potential. He shaved off the paint, fixed the broken legs, and restored it with great pride. He presented it to his mom. ‘Tell me another time,’ I prompted. ‘This one is really dumb,’ he discounted. ‘But when I worked at a butcher shop, I used to find meat on the bones others threw out. My boss loved me. I could find several pounds of product just by giving the bone a second try.’ As the plane was nosing down, I tested a possibility with him. ‘You love to salvage stuff. You salvage furniture. You salvage meat. God gave you the ability to find treasure in someone else’s trash.’ My idea surprised him. ‘God did that?’ ‘Yes. God. Your ability to restore a table is every bit as holy as your uncle’s ability to restore a life.’ You would’ve thought he’d just been handed a newborn baby. As my words sank in, the tough soldier teared up.” Heed Your Desires, Don’t Suppress Them And my message to you today on this third point is Max Lucado’s message right here: “See your desires as gifts to heed rather than longings to suppress, and you’ll feel the same joy.” I have a quote up on my vision wall that says something like, the dreams you nurture in your heart are the most noble part of you. So pay attention to what you do well, what you like to do, and why you love to do it. Student Reflection: Discovering Strengths Here’s another one of our students: “I didn’t think I had a lot of gifts, but through MDM Academy, I’ve really discovered my gifts and talents and come to appreciate them on another level. I feel like I use them with more respect and reverence for myself and the gifts I’ve been given. I discovered myself in a new way and how to focus on my strengths. I now see the power of being focused on the things I’m good at.” And that’s what you can do. Start with this book, and then go on a journey of trying things you’ve never tried before. I say this on the podcast often—I give this as a solution often—because I know these are the things that work. Bringing Your Kids Along the Journey These are the things that turn you back on. They make you feel alive again. And you can do them right there with your kids. Years ago, my husband had always wanted to take karate. So you know what he did? He took karate with my two younger kids. They now have all these incredible memories together—doing karate, serving in that space, helping with events, and being a force for good in the community. They did something they loved, together. And you can do that too. I promise. You absolutely can. Final Encouragement and Invitation So remember—let’s push back on the narrative of who mothers are and what we mean. We’re going to talk about that in more detail next week. Get the education you deserve by picking up a classic and surrounding yourself with enriching things. And then get to know yourself and develop your talents. I would love to hear in the comments below which of these three you plan to work on and dive into. Next week, we’re going to talk more in depth about going beyond being “just a mom” and becoming a mission-driven mom—what that looks like, the six traits of a mission-driven mom, and why they matter so much. Thank you so much for joining me here today. And again, remember—I want to see you and your friends, your sisters, your mom, your grandma, and your nieces at our January 29th workshop and in that private, exclusive community for celebration attendees. I will see you there.
EP 136: If You Think You Don't Want A Family, Think Again!
Are you questioning whether you want a family, marriage, or children? As more women choose to be single and childfree, conversations about feminism, happiness, and personal fulfillment are everywhere. By 2030, nearly half of women ages 25–44 are projected to be single and without children, and many are celebrating this as freedom, empowerment, and choice. In this episode, I offer a thoughtful pushback. Not to shame, not to judge, but to invite deeper thinking. Drawing on decades of experience working with women and families, long-term research on happiness and wellbeing, and my own deeply personal story, I walk through four essential truths every woman deserves to consider before deciding she’s “out” on marriage and family. We talk about why relationships matter more than we’ve been told, why feminism hasn’t delivered the happiness it promised, how meaning is inseparable from responsibility, and why wanting something isn’t the same as needing it. This conversation may challenge you, but if you’re willing to stay with it, it might also change how you see your future, your relationships, and your own potential. ______________________________LINKS MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE What is a good life?https://youtu.be/8KkKuTCFvzI?si=S6Q101owT9uVaw9D Books ReferencedThe End of Woman by Carrie Gress https://a.co/d/3Sdsh0a Mere Christianity by CS Lewis https://a.co/d/gMuVf98 The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey https://a.co/d/gP6X4bU Reforming Education by Mortimer Adler https://a.co/d/2OvbaY0 What Our Mothers Didn't Tell Us by Danielle Crittenden https://a.co/d/bFGTxkk _________________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life, founder of The Mission Driven Mom, and I’m so glad you’re joining me today. This episode is a pushback to a recent phenomenon circulating on social media. It centers around a statistic that claims that by 2030, an estimated 45% of women ages 25 to 44 will be single and child-free. There are many young women saying they are choosing to go without family—that it’s not what they want, that they want something else, and that they know what they want. They believe that what they want will make them happy. I’m going to give you four really important things to consider if you are in this camp. I’m pushing back on the assumption that this is all fine and well—that you should “do you,” that this is your truth, and that it’s automatically the right thing for you. This podcast will probably make some people mad. Some of you will say, “Audrey, you’ve been married over 30 years. You haven’t been in the dating market. You stayed home and raised kids. You don’t get a voice here.” My argument is that this is exactly why I do get a voice. I’ve worked with thousands of women—especially mothers. I know women. I know what many women want, and I know many of the problems this life choice creates. If you think you don’t want a family, you need to think again. Point One: Relationships Are Everything I’m going to keep this tight. I’ll link resources in the description if you want to go deeper. One of the most important talks you could ever watch is Robert Waldinger’s TED Talk, What Makes a Good Life. It explains—objectively—what creates long-term happiness. At Mission Driven Mom, we believe in truths that are always true. One of them is this: relationships are everything. Waldinger presents the longest scientific study in history—a Harvard study spanning over 85 years and multiple generations. Researchers tracked hundreds of men, their wives, and now their children, collecting extensive physical, emotional, relational, and neurological data. After decades of analysis, the conclusion was clear: good relationships keep us happier and healthier, period. They determine physical health, mental health, longevity, memory retention, and overall life satisfaction. People without quality life partners experienced earlier cognitive decline, poorer health, and shorter lives. Warm, supportive relationships are protective. Conflict is normal, but trust is essential. If you want the best health, fulfillment, and happiness, you need a partner you can rely on. Every great thinker across history agrees on this: growth requires risk. And the greatest risk is giving your heart. Many women respond by saying, “There are no good men,” or “We can replace family with friendships.” I’ll address that shortly. C.S. Lewis once said that children playing happily in a mud puddle will reject an invitation to the sea because they don’t know what the sea is like. That’s what happens when we reject marriage and family without fully understanding what we’re walking away from. I don’t doubt your pain. I don’t doubt your bad experiences. I know there’s luck involved, loss involved, abandonment involved. I’ve experienced abandonment myself. I’m not saying you control everything. I am saying you deserve better information before making one of the biggest decisions of your life. Point Two: The Feminist Movement Did Not Make Us Happier By many objective measures, women’s lives have improved. But multiple studies—including Yale Law and the National Library of Medicine—show that women’s subjective happiness has declined, both absolutely and relative to men. Women today report being less happy than women in the 1950s. I’m not saying feminism caused all problems or brought no benefits. I am saying it deserves honest scrutiny. Second-wave feminism taught women that vulnerability—especially motherhood—was the problem. The solution? Become more like men. Eliminate dependency. Erase patriarchy. But vulnerability is not a flaw; it’s part of being human. Authors like Carrie Gress and Danielle Crittenden document how feminism misdiagnosed women’s suffering and prescribed a fix that ignored womanhood itself. Instead of healing women, it slowly erased them. Even popular culture revealed the cracks. In the 1980s, Cosmopolitan published maps showing where women could move to find husbands due to a “man shortage.” Sixty years later, women are still unhappy—and still being told to lean in harder. I’m not advocating a return to the past. I’m a business owner. I value progress. But rejecting family entirely is not progress—it’s confusion rooted in incomplete information. Point Three: Meaning Comes from Responsibility Jordan Peterson and others articulate what we intuitively know: careers—even dream careers—cannot meet all human needs. Meaning comes from responsibility. Independence feels good, but interdependence is the higher principle. You want responsibility on steroids? Raise a child. You can’t quit. You can’t walk away. You can’t outsource it. Rights and duties are two sides of the same coin. The deepest joy comes with the greatest responsibility. We grow when we’re challenged. Family forces empathy, forgiveness, patience, humility, and selflessness—virtues that make us fully human. Point Four: We Don’t Always Know What We Need Alfred Adler taught that needs are absolute, wants are relative. We often want things that harm us and avoid things that would help us thrive. Our culture glorifies “do what you want,” yet the most fulfilled people consistently do what they need. Maybe we need family. Maybe we need deep partnership. The Harvard study strongly suggests we do. Loneliness is now a declared epidemic. Humans are social beings. Relationships are not optional. A Personal Word I’ve been married nearly 32 years. My marriage has been incredibly hard. We’ve faced addiction, betrayal, financial devastation, parenting challenges, and loss. We made it not because it was easy—but because we both wanted it and committed to learning how to love better. I’ve watched my sons do everything possible to save their marriages—therapy, books, humility—only to be left. There are good men. Many women can’t see them because culture has taught them to fear vulnerability and expect fantasy. Final Encouragement Don’t decide yet. Comfort today does not equal fulfillment tomorrow. Every woman—single or married—should work on herself and learn how to build healthy relationships. Love is action. Boundaries teach. Forgiveness frees. Humility begins all progress. You don’t get to rewrite human nature. You don’t get to ignore truths that have worked for millennia. If you’re scared, I get it. If you’ve been hurt, I get it. But you don’t know who you could become if you commit to growth. Relationships are everything. Thank you for listening. I know some of you will be upset. Others may feel seen. I’d love to hear your thoughts. If you want to learn more about Mission Driven Mom, visit themissiondrivenmom.com and download the first three chapters of The Mission-Driven Life. I’ll see you next time.
EP 135: Holiday Stress? Escaping the Trap of Feeling Shame
In this episode, Audrey unpacks the difference between healthy shame (guilt tied to real wrongdoing) and unhealthy shame (false beliefs about our worth) and explains how confusing the two leads to emotional pain—especially during the holidays. Using real-life examples, she shows how unhealthy shame damages relationships, triggers emotional overreactions, and keeps us stuck. Audrey teaches listeners to recognize the source of their feelings, take responsibility only for true guilt, release false shame, draw their worth from God, and use empowering questions to reframe difficult interactions. Through daily self-care, preemptive reflection, and intentional communication, we can transform holiday stress into opportunities for healing, confidence, and deeper, more loving relationships. How to Conquer Worries: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/how-to-conquer-worries The Miracle Morning app: https://miraclemorning.app/ Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ _________________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher. I'm the author of The Mission Driven Life and the founder of The Mission Driven Mom—and happy holidays. I'm so excited for you to join me. Listen to this fascinating quote. It says, “Peter Sheehan: that deep fear we all have of being wrong, of being belittled, and of feeling less than is what stops us from taking the very risks required to move us forward.” That's what we're going to talk about for a few minutes today: what is going on with us when we're worried and dreading, maybe even a little bit, the holidays? Because we’re worried about these relationships where we might feel bad interacting with certain people. Last week we spent a little bit of time talking about what to do if we’re worried about the holidays, if we're dreading interacting with these people. I gave you three tools. We talked about why you might be dreading it and three tools that you can use to better manage it. One really important one was taking time for yourself every morning. I gave you the recommendation of the Miracle Morning app so you could visualize and pray and do all of those things each morning to buoy yourself up. And we talked about what to do in specific situations with certain types of worry, and then I gave you another tool: asking empowering questions. I also gave you an opt-in of a mini-training that you still need to go get because it's going to help you with this week's tools as well. So by the end of this podcast, you are going to understand the two types of shame, and you are going to have a little toolset for knowing what to do when you get into that really uncomfortable situation that you don't want to be in with someone, and you're just not sure how to manage yourself because you're not feeling the way you want to feel. So first, let's talk about these two types of shame. I'm going to give you the framework of a very simple scenario—you may have experienced it; I've experienced it—of what might happen to you as a mother in terms of a simple, everyday experience with shame. Then we're going to break it down. This is what one woman explained: “One time I stopped to get gas and my credit card was declined. The guy gave me a really hard time. As I pulled out of the station, my three-year-old son started crying, and I just started screaming, ‘Shut up.’ I was so ashamed about my card. I went nuts. Then I was ashamed that I yelled at my son.” Now, in a normal situation, or kind of an average explanation you might find online, somebody might say, “Well, you shouldn't feel ashamed like she did. You should never be ashamed. You need to affirm yourself. You need to tell yourself that you are incredible,” and all of that. Well, it is the case that there are different kinds of shame, and not understanding that is going to make you either really struggle to overcome the shame or handle it in all the wrong ways. And so just understanding that there are two types, that they are both at play in this scenario, and that they happen to us all the time, is going to empower you to know what to do better. Healthy shame is a voice from your true self. We could also say it’s a voice from God. If you want to go back and listen to the “Two Consciences” podcast I did a few months ago, that's a really nice companion to this one because that’s what I talked about there—how you have a divine conscience, and it's different from the social conscience. And there’s some dovetailing and layering between shame and the conscience, which is really, really important to keep in mind. So healthy shame is coming from that divine place—the true sense of what is really right and wrong, the morality. It's something deep inside you that says, “You're better than this. I should not have done that. That was not the right thing to do.” Here are some examples of ways we experience shame—but healthy shame: We overspend without talking to our spouse and break the budget we agreed upon. We consistently harbor bad feelings toward someone and think badly about them, maybe even say bad things about them. Maybe it's worse than that—maybe you have an addiction. Maybe you struggle with lying or fudging the truth. Maybe you have betrayed others in the past. These are instances where you legitimately did something wrong, and you feel ashamed about it because you really did something wrong. You've betrayed your conscience. You've broken principles and natural laws. You've done something you know to be wrong. The point here is that you did something wrong. It is behavior-focused. Healthy shame is only about actions—things we actually did. This is super important to remember. Unhealthy shame is a voice from the false self. This is the tempter. This is how we don’t tell ourselves the truth. This is a lie we are believing. Louis Smeeds said this about unhealthy shame: “The pain from this shame is not a signal of something wrong in us that needs to be made right. Our shame is what is wrong with us. It is a false shame, or an unhealthy shame, because the feeling has no basis in reality.” I'm going to say that again: the feeling has no basis in reality. It is unhealthy shame we do not deserve because we are not as bad as our feelings tell us we are. It’s so important to remember: your feelings can lie to you, just like your thoughts can lie to you. Just like we all lie to ourselves sometimes—and other people, unintentionally or sometimes even with good intentions, lie to us. It is our goal, our mandate as mission-driven moms, to be truth seekers who want the truth wherever it is, whatever it is, and whatever source it’s coming from. Unhealthy shame tells us that we are bad. It is person-focused. You didn't do anything legitimately against morality. You didn't even necessarily disobey your conscience. You've honestly tried your best and something bad happened—or something you don’t like—and you feel like, “I am wrong. There's something broken about me.” Some examples of unhealthy shame might be: You overpromise without thinking or making a plan, and then you can't follow through because you simply have too many commitments. You constantly obsess about the things you “should” be doing and feel guilty for not doing them. You look at others’ accomplishments and believe that you should be like them. You were abused or neglected as a child, and now you struggle with trust or vulnerability. Yet in both healthy and unhealthy shame, whatever the source, you feel yucky. You feel guilty. You feel awful. It feels like something is wrong. And I think this is why it's so easy to conflate the two and just think, “Well, if I ever feel ashamed, then that's never me.” And this is something the world gets wrong. It tells you that anytime you feel ashamed at all, you should deflect it, tell other people they're wrong, play the victim, or ignore the changes your conscience is lovingly trying to help you make. But when we recognize there are two different kinds of shame, then we can put them both into proper perspective. When it’s unhealthy shame, then you are the shame. And because you can't stop being you, you feel wrong at the core. You feel helpless. You feel despair because you can't stop being you, and you don't know a way out. You feel trapped and broken. That's why unhealthy shame is always bad. It's always the wrong perspective, and we need to reframe what we’re thinking and what we’re telling ourselves when we get caught in unhealthy shame. This is where we have to be better discerners. This is where principles can really come to our aid. When we understand natural law properly and understand how to delineate a principle, it's so much easier to parse out the lies and the truths we’re telling ourselves—to identify the unhealthy and the healthy shame. But I'm going to give you some tools you can use right now—some really valuable questions—and then we're going to use that same tool from last week: empowering questions. What's really important to recognize—and I’ve already mentioned it—is knowing the difference between unhealthy and healthy shame. Healthy shame is more appropriately called guilt: “I did something bad, and I feel guilty.” Shame, in the unhealthy sense, is: “I am bad.” There are some people who are just intensely shame-based. It becomes their identity or worldview. And often those people do have enough trauma in their past that they just have to do more work. They can definitely see who they really are, but it’s more work. Let's be clear: we all experience unhealthy shame. We all experience both types. We all conflate them. We all feel confused by them, and we all want to run away because whatever situation we’re in feels super embarrassing. So let's go back to the beginning scenario. This mom is trying to get gas. Her credit card isn't working. The guy is “shaming” her—telling her something is wrong with her because her card won’t work. There's something wrong with him that he’s shaming her. We can't let other people's perspectives get us hung up. Remember, she said, “I was so ashamed about my card. I went nuts.” This is important to recognize because if we have a relationship with someone that's already uncomfortable, or if we have scenarios in our family that are emotionally complicated—where for some reason we feel less than—then simple events trigger deep reactions. For me, especially with my husband's family, there was a time when I felt embarrassed and ashamed because we didn't have as much money as many people in his family. They had nicer things, they gave their children more, and I experienced a lot of embarrassment and shame over that. They were not doing anything wrong. They were just living their lives and having success. It had nothing to do with me. They liked me just fine. But I was creating complications in my relationships with them because of my unhealthy shame. And I was creating that unhealthy shame by comparing myself to them and telling myself I was less than—that something was wrong with me because I wasn’t giving my children the same things or having the same success. I decided we must not be as smart. Then I went all the way down the rabbit hole to my worth. That is what lies at the heart of unhealthy shame: we have our worth tied up in something that has nothing to do with our worth. We’re no longer drawing our worth from God, and we’re no longer telling ourselves the truth. We're caught up in lies. We're not asking good empowering questions. So we turn normal everyday situations—just like going to dinner with extended family—into our own torture chambers, beating ourselves up and making ourselves miserable simply because people are living their lives. Then maybe someone says something teasing or slightly judgmental, and suddenly I'm down in that awful place of “I'm broken. I can’t be fixed. Something is wrong with us. Why can’t we get the same results?” So with the woman at the gas station: why was she ashamed about her credit card? Because her worth was wrapped up in it—because she believed something was wrong with her that her card wasn't working. She could have said, “This is so frustrating that my card isn’t working, but this happens to everyone. I'm going to pull over and figure it out.” Or if she’s standing in front of the guy—even if he’s berating her—if her worth wasn’t wrapped up in her money or credit card, she might have said, “Sir, you’ve probably had a time in your life when your credit card didn’t work. I’m not sure what the problem is here, but let’s figure it out.” Even if there truly wasn’t enough money in her account—embarrassing, sure—she could say, “Lots of people have been in this situation. I’m sorry I didn’t check beforehand. Let’s come up with a solution.” Then, instead of staying in a problem-centered space, she would be in a solution-centered space—where she should be as a true creator, which is what we want to be as mission-driven moms. We deep-dive into this in the Academy because your worth should not be tied up in any of that stuff. That’s where unhealthy shame comes from. But we can see these situations clearly. We can parse them out. We can see the unhealthy shame from the healthy shame. We can recognize when it’s guilt and when it’s shame. Let me read you this quote about unhealthy shame from Brené Brown: “If you roughly divide the men and women I've interviewed into two groups—those who feel a deep sense of love and belonging and those who struggle for it—there’s only one variable that separates the groups: those who feel lovable, who love, and who experience belonging simply believe they are worthy of love and belonging.” Because this woman's worth was tied up in her money and her credit card and how she looked to other people, she wasn't drawing her worth from the proper places. She wasn't having a healthy perspective and telling herself the truth and asking empowering questions and being solution-focused. Well, then she had this shame. Here's what I really want you to recognize and take away from this, because this, I think, is really at the heart of some of the reasons why we're dreading the holidays and some of the issues that we have around these complicated relationships with other people—just like me with my extended family and me creating all of this shame around just a normal family interaction. Instead, I could have been proud of who I was and proud of the choices I was making and recognizing that I was a really good mom and that my kids didn't need stuff in order to feel loved. I could have been affirming myself and telling myself the truth and asking myself empowering questions when I went there, like, “How can I love them better? How can I find out more about their lives? How can I see what we have in common?” All those things that I could have been doing—the tools that I didn't have then that I have now, which I'm so grateful for. It was the original unhealthy shame that helped instigate the healthy shame. She said she was also ashamed that she yelled at her son. The healthy shame was that she felt guilty because she yelled at her child, and that's a legitimate thing that she actually did wrong. Her conscience was like, “You shouldn't yell at your kid.” Why is she yelling at her child? It's because she feels awful. Now, we're always responsible for our choices, no matter how we feel. But if we already feel ashamed, we're more likely to act out in shaming ways. We're more likely to do things that cause us more shame because we do things we know to be wrong that we legitimately feel guilty about later. So I hope that really sinks in. Think about that. If you allow yourself to engage in unhealthy shame, you are more likely to cause yourself guilt and more shame. So what we have to do is we have to tackle who you have troubled relationships with. You've interacted with these people before. You know what stuff might come up. You know the comparisons that you might make. You know the unhealthy things you might be tempted to say. You know the kinds of things they might say to you or what might go down, so you can prepare beforehand. I love the quote, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” This is why you're going to do your Miracle Morning every day over the holidays, because you're going to keep yourself in a good place. You're going to take care of yourself first. You're going to meet your needs. You're going to envision what you want these holidays to look like and how you're going to show up. You're going to journal and be grateful and exercise for a few minutes and just do those things that are going to center you. You're going to draw your worth from God, and you're going to remind yourself that there's unhealthy shame, and you are not going to let other people make you feel ashamed when you shouldn't, because you haven't done anything wrong. This is so, so, so important. That clerk participated in this woman's sense of shame by the way he was treating her, but she had the power to stop him. She had the power to tell him that she refused to feel ashamed for something she didn't do wrong. So this is why you're going to take care of yourself first. If you did not get that mini training, you're going to go grab it. It's in the description again this week. You're going to really practice those empowering questions, and you're going to let your brilliant mind think on those empowering questions. You're going to pray over them, you're going to ponder them, you can maybe ask other people them, and you're going to let your marvelous mind find new, creative solutions to old problems. Because you're going to be solution-focused, right? And you're going to be the person who is not going to feel guilty for something that she didn't do wrong. But you're also going to be the person who is the first one to have the courage to own up to what you did do wrong, because both of those things nurture your self-image. Both of those things help you feel in control of yourself, in control of your life, and centered and worthy. So the first thing that you're going to do when you have an interaction is prepare ahead of time. You're going to use those empowering questions. You're going to use that training to start jotting down where you might get caught up this Christmas—what might happen over the holidays that might be an issue for you. You're going to write your empowering questions, and you're going to carry them around with you. You're going to do that prevention with Miracle Morning and with empowering questions to prepare you. Now we're going to talk for just a minute about what you're going to do in those situations that might arise in the moment. You have an interaction—or you don't even have an interaction. Maybe this is all going on in your head. My husband and I can have so many conversations and give so many examples to you of ways that we've done this together and individually, with many, many people in our lives, of “horriblizing” them and putting ourselves on a moral pedestal or demeaning ourselves and just not seeing ourselves and others honestly. That's what we have to learn how to do. So let's say that you just notice that you're feeling these bad feelings that you don't want to feel, and you're especially feeling them even just toward yourself. You find yourself demeaning yourself or feeling like you don't like yourself, or telling yourself things that you don't want to hear—things that you wouldn't tell somebody else that you really love. Or you have this bad interaction, and you're in this negative place. The first thing that you're going to do is check in on your healthy shame. You're just going to ask about good old-fashioned guilt: “Is there something in this relationship that I am legitimately responsible for fixing? Have I potentially done something to hurt this person in the past?” This is preemptive work you can do as well. You can anticipate the experiences that you're going to have with these people at the holidays. You can anticipate what's going to happen by actually trying to repair relationships before the event happens. That's also some of the ounce of prevention that you can do. The point I want to make here is that what we tend to do at the holidays is make it all about the external stuff. It's all about the parties and the decorations and the gifts and the cookies and the caroling. And the traditions matter—do not get me wrong. You're creating beautiful memories that your children will cherish. But actually, the only reason you're doing all of that external stuff is to enrich the relationships, to build happy memories for yourself and your family, and to build bonds. So I don't want you to tell yourself this holiday season that you don't have time to sit with yourself and negotiate relationships—that you're too busy and you'll “handle it after the holidays.” That is a lie. If you do a little bit of preemptive work—if you will write down some empowering questions, if you'll just sit with yourself tonight when you go to bed and spend an extra half an hour before you fall asleep and do a little bit of preemptive work—the holidays will be a million times better. Even if Uncle Joe shows up and says the thing he always says, even if everybody else is exactly the same, because you are different, it will be different for you. And when you show up different for people because you're different—because you've worked on you—then it always forces other people to respond differently. Maybe their initial reaction won't be exactly what you want or expect, but it will heal. You have the power to initiate the healing. Sometimes you just are responsible for stuff. I was responsible for feeling jealous. That was something that I was doing that was 100% on me, and I owed myself and God—and probably them—an apology for building up a wall between us with my own negative feelings, with my own jealousy. So I want to encourage you to evaluate beforehand and even in the moment. Leave the room for five minutes. Go sit in another room and just ask yourself—maybe even pray and talk to God about it. Maybe even bring in somebody that you trust—and really try to be honest: “Is there something in this relationship that I can take responsibility for that would actually help it move forward? Have I hurt this person in the past? Have I created walls? Have I been judgmental or comparing or negative or crabby or whatever, and do I genuinely need to fix this?” Then write them a card or call them on the phone or give them a short visit. You can write it down beforehand so that you remember what you wanted to say, and it can be really simple. If it's not that big of a deal, I don't want you to blow it up into something that it doesn't need to be. But you can definitely initiate healing. You can go to someone and say, “Look, our relationship has not been the best, and I'm the first one to admit that I have this part in that. I have not reached out to you as much as I could have. I have not been there for you in times when you needed help. I have been jealous of you, and I have—I'm sorry to say—talked badly about you sometimes when you weren't around. That's all on me, and I am very sorry. I want this holiday season to be better. We're going to spend time together, and I want it to be as beautiful as it can be. If you can find it in your heart to begin to forgive me, then let's start over. Let's see if this can be better.” I'm not here trying to give you one more thing to do. I don't want you to listen to this and do that unhealthy shame thing again: “Oh, Audrey's giving me one more thing to do and I don't have time to do it. She's telling me to take time at the holidays and there's too much stuff going on.” I am giving you a gift, and the gift is the understanding of what's causing you pain and tools to begin to create healing and to make this holiday season better. So if you can hear that, if you can accept that gift, if you can take it into your heart and recognize that in the relationships in your life that are not the way you want them to be, there might be something that you could genuinely apologize for—even if it's just a genuine misunderstanding—then you manage your unhealthy shame. You use those empowering questions. You stop and do your gratitude. You take yourself out of the room and get yourself right again. You do not let other people shame you. You do not internalize that. If someone says something to you like, “You shouldn't be this way,” or “You shouldn't be that way,” or “That was the wrong thing,” or they don't like your decorations, or that wasn't what they wanted for Christmas, or you are just wrong in some way that they don't like, then you're going to take a few minutes and ask some questions like, “Is this just me, or does this happen to other people?” Like with the credit card—does everybody sometimes not have money on their credit card? Probably a lot of us. Is that a normal human thing to happen? Yes. “I don't need to feel shame about that because that's a normal thing that happens to people.” Then you can also ask yourself some other really good questions, like, “Why am I feeling ashamed for something I didn't do wrong? What is the truth about this situation, about this relationship, about me that I can focus on that's good? How can I see myself and this person more honestly?” You can write those questions down. You can carry them around in your back pocket, and you can make this holiday season better. Even if it's just 1% better, that's better. And then it can be 1% better next year. If you'll go get that mini training on how to stop worrying and start thriving and use those empowering questions and do the work ahead of time and do the work in the middle of these interactions—most of the time your presence isn't “do or die.” Most of the time at these Christmas gatherings you can step away for a minute. You can say, “Let's take a break. Let's pause gifts for a minute and come back after we've had a break,” or “You guys eat a piece of candy; I’ve got to go to the bathroom”—whatever you need to say to take a break and to renegotiate yourself, to reframe the situation for yourself, and tell yourself the truth. So what are we going to do this holiday season? It's the week before Christmas. You've got a couple of weeks of interacting with people and attending parties. It's coming to a close, and now you're going to be with these people—maybe on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve, or whatever the case might be—or even just with yourself, and you want to be different. You want to show up differently. So you're going to do the maintenance stuff and remember that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And you're going to take care of yourself every day and ask empowering questions about how you can show up differently. When you start feeling ashamed, embarrassed, or negative, you're going to pull away and ask yourself, “Is this healthy or unhealthy shame?” Then you're going to take responsibility for what you've done. If you yelled at somebody, if you were critical of them—whatever it might be—you’re just going to go apologize. Then you're going to use empowering questions to reframe the unhealthy shame and remind yourself that your worth is infinite, that you matter, that people love you, that you are lovable and loved, and that you just need to see everybody a little bit more honestly. What you're practicing doing—these are just good principles that you're going to practice. Taking care of yourself every single day is a really important principle. Looking for whether it’s unhealthy or healthy shame is a really important principle. Taking responsibility for what you've done, with healthy shame, is a really important principle. And getting rid of the unhealthy shame is a really important principle as well. A couple final thoughts. Remember that quote I gave you at the beginning? “That deep fear we all have of being wrong, of being belittled, of feeling less than is what stops us taking the very risks required to move us forward.” Admitting that we were jealous, saying we're sorry to people—those are the risks we have to take to move forward. Taking full responsibility for the guilt for what is ours, then reframing all the unhealthy shame—that’s what we've got to do. And this is just such a beautiful thought to remember. This is Louis Smeeds: “There is a nice irony in shame. Our feelings of inferiority are a sure sign of our superiority, and our feelings of worthlessness testify to our great worth.” In other words, we could not feel less than if we were not truly superior and noble creatures. We could not feel unworthy if we did not have great worth. We are daughters of God who can end the unhealthy shame, take action where there's genuine guilt, and rise permanently above any unhealthy shame and begin to work toward our real potential. And in the case of this holiday season, begin to have more of the loving, beautiful, connected, meaningful relationships that we long to have. Go get that mini training. Use it all through the holidays. Come back and tell me how it went—what insights you had, how you reframed your unhealthy shame, how you took responsibility, and what was better this holiday season because of these really valuable principles. And remember, next year we have some great things cooking for you. We will be back at the first of the year, and look for some really great stuff coming into your inbox over this Christmas holiday about the Mothers of Creation Celebration. It’s coming back. We haven't had this celebration for a few years. It’s back. Please join us this fall and look for those emails coming into your inbox about that. Make sure to subscribe and leave a review. It helps others find us and know that quality content and true principles are taught here and that they can be blessed by those. Have a very, very, very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I will see you in 2026.
EP 134: To the Mom Who is Dreading the Holidays
This episode explores why so many moms feel overwhelmed and stressed during the holidays, despite wanting to create meaningful memories for their families. Audrey identifies three main causes of holiday dread—unrealistic expectations, feeling responsible for everything and everyone, and constant worrying about future problems. She explains how simple mindset shifts and daily practices can dramatically reduce stress. Audrey invites listeners to reflect on their own childhood Christmas memories, reminding moms that what children remember most are the feelings, the connection, and the simple traditions—not perfection. She introduces the “Miracle Morning” routine as a transformative tool for grounding, gratitude, and emotional resilience. Finally, she teaches the power of turning worries into “empowering questions,” helping moms shift from fear and overwhelm to clarity, capability, and peace. The episode encourages moms to simplify holiday expectations, care for themselves daily, and approach challenges with empowered thinking so they can create truly joyful, meaningful experiences for their families. How to Conquer Worries: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/how-to-conquer-worries The Miracle Morning app: https://miraclemorning.app/ Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ _________________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life and Founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. I'm so excited for you to join me today as we talk about dreading the holidays—so to all you moms who are really not looking forward to it and are struggling with that. I read this statistic the other day: 80% of millennial moms are overwhelmed by the mental load of the Christmas holidays, and 65% are feeling pressured for perfect celebrations. And when I saw those statistics, I just knew that we needed to talk about this for a few minutes today. So if the holidays are a stressful time of year for you, take heart. What you may not realize is that you’re actually stressed for specific reasons, and that there are ways you can manage that stress much better. So by the time we get to the end of this podcast, you will have a clearer understanding of exactly why you are stressed, why you’re dreading the holidays, and some simple tools for managing that much better and making the holidays a much more joyful experience for you and your family. Now, first of all, why do you dread the holidays? I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but I have a recurring nightmare, and the nightmare goes something like this: it's Christmas Eve, and I’ve just realized that it’s Christmas Eve and I have no gifts for anybody. I don’t know what to do about this. I don’t have any money. I don’t have any gifts, and I don’t know what to do. And so I frantically run to the thrift store—that’s always my go-to in my dreams. And I get a cart and start loading things into the cart to try to get people on my list some Christmas presents, especially for my kids. Now, I don’t know exactly why this is a recurring nightmare for me, but when I get really stressed, this is something that I often dream. And it’s funny, but it also expresses that I feel like so many of you do, and the holidays can be unbelievably stressful, and we dread them for many different reasons. So let's talk about some statistics. We mentioned that 80% of millennial moms are feeling overwhelmed by the mental load. Sixty-five percent reported feeling pressured. And twice as many moms as dads feel the load. They feel stressed about the shopping, the family gatherings, the finances, keeping everybody healthy, and this kind of really weird ethereal expectation to create a magical Christmas—to build perfect memories. In fact, a study from the American Heart Association found that 79% of people overlook their health, and more than a quarter of moms say that it takes a month or more to recover from their holiday stress. Okay, this is bleak. This is no bueno. We do not want this. So there are basically three reasons why you would feel stressed about the holidays—why you would be dreading them. And we’re going to go through each one of these, and as I’m talking about them, I want you to self-identify. You might feel stressed about all three. You might just identify with one or the other. And for each one, I’m going to give you a tool that you can use to manage that specific stressor. The first one is setting unrealistic expectations. We're going to talk about this more in a minute. You can just imagine what it is, but I'm going to take you through a little activity that's going to help you. This is a big reason that we feel unhappy going into the holidays—because we think we have to show up for everybody else, and we have to make everything magical and perfect. We have these super high expectations, and I think we know deep down inside that we're just never going to meet those expectations, but we don't really know what to do about that. The second reason that you would feel stressed at the holidays is that you feel responsible for everything, and the pressure is immense. You feel like it's all up to you. You are going to be the one that everyone’s finger is pointing at if Christmas isn't perfect. And so you feel really just dreading not making it perfect and someone complaining, and you giving your all and then it not being enough for somebody. And the third reason why you might dread the holidays is that you're just worried. You're worried about the money, the gifts, the parties, seeing people that you don't want to see, helping everybody get along. These are all big reasons to dread the holidays, even though it's supposed to be this wonderful, beautiful time. And it can be. Okay, so let's talk first about these unrealistic expectations. When I was a little girl—I can't remember exactly how old I was—but I wanted an Easy-Bake Oven so badly. I begged and begged and begged for this Easy-Bake Oven. And literally the only thing I remember about that Christmas is that I got an Easy-Bake Oven. The ingredients came in these little box sets, and the dish was just this tiny little thing, and you would mix it up with water. It was basically just sugar and flour, I'm sure. And there were a couple different flavors, I think. You mixed them up, poured them in the little pan, and put them in your little oven. And I think I baked all of them on Christmas Day, and we ate them all up, and it was great. Frankly, I think I got a replenishment of those once or twice. I don’t even know how much I used the Easy-Bake Oven, but I got my Easy-Bake Oven and it was great. Another year, I really, really wanted a little gumball dispenser. I wanted my own gumball machine. I mean, you just think if you could eat all the gumballs you ever wanted to eat. And of course, I also remember we had a tradition that I carried into my family and now we're still doing it: we would get robes and towels and other things from around the house, and we would read from the Bible and act out the Nativity story. And as soon as we got video cameras—when those started to be a thing, because we didn’t have one when I was really young—and then we did. And we would videotape it. And now, of course, today we can record it and watch it immediately and laugh at ourselves and have a good time. I remember dinners with family. I remember putting up the tree. Our tradition was to go get a real tree. I loved picking it out. We sometimes strung popcorn. We sometimes put on icicles. Just really fun times. I remember the Christmas music playing. Every year we watched Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and The Grinch Who Stole Christmas. And being out of school and being able to sleep in—those are all my memories of Christmas. And so, when you're trying to deal with the stress and the overwhelm and the dread of unmet or unrealistic expectations, I want you to do this. I want you to take a minute—you can do this right now—and I want you to do what I just did. I want you to think about your favorite gifts that you received as a child, your favorite activities that you did with your family, and the time that you spent with loved ones. And my guess is that your experience is going to be pretty similar to mine. You're not going to remember every Christmas, and you're not going to remember most of the gifts that you received. There's just a feeling of music playing, lights going up, being out of school, being with your family, and looking forward to things—maybe a Christmas party that you always had. And you know what? It's so important to remember: it wasn't complicated. You probably don't remember very many details. You probably remember the feelings—a handful of key memories, the time together, the way that you felt, and a few gifts. And the reason this matters so much is because we as moms are really just trying to make something special for our families. Now, the parties are fun, the extended family dinners are fun, and sometimes we have to host those and it's a bit of work. But really, it's just that we want our children to have a good experience. Frankly, there were plenty of Christmases when my kids were really little that they loved the boxes the toys came in. They would make them into forts, color on them, and play hide and seek in them. Small children especially are easy to please. And maybe you have teenagers and it's more complicated—I get it. But the point here being: you're just trying to please a few people. You're trying to give them traditions and memorable experiences, and it can be simple. You want to have a happy Christmas. You want your children and your husband to have a happy Christmas, and that's really all that matters. And it's not complicated. They're not going to remember most of the gifts that they got, and they're not going to remember most of the things that you do. They're going to remember you being with them. They're going to remember a good feeling in the home. They're going to remember the smells. They're going to remember baking with you, cooking Christmas dinner with you. They're going to remember laughing. They're going to remember putting up the tree and putting the lights on it. They're going to remember little movies that you watch or other little traditions that you have. That's it. And frankly, you can pull that off in a pretty short period of time. You can get each child a few simple things—maybe one thing that they really, really want. You can put on some simple traditions the day of. You can bake some cookies one or two nights and carol at the neighbor’s home. It can be so simple. It does not have to be complicated. And every time you start to overcomplicate it and you think that the décor has to be perfect and the food has to be perfect and you have to make everybody happy and solve all the problems, I want you to remember your own childhood. Think about what you remember, try to pass that on to your children, keep it very simple, and remember that all of that is enough. Okay, now what do you do if you're feeling responsible for everything? You're dreading Christmas because you feel responsible—like you have to do it all. What you're going to remember is that you can’t, and that no one expects you to. And if they expect you to, you can kindly tell them they're wrong. You're not responsible for everything. I think if you’ll remember your own childhood experience—and you’ll take this next tip that I'm going to give you—it’s going to help you be more centered and see everything in a more balanced way. Because one of the things that we do is we have unrealistic expectations, and then we think we're responsible for all of the expectations, and then we don't take care of ourselves. And so we're going to reverse that this Christmas—this holiday season. We're going to start, we're going to lead, by having simpler, clearer expectations that are more realistic and that match the kinds of memories you have from your childhood that you want to pass on to your children. And then we're going to take care of ourselves so that when we're tempted to feel responsible for everything, to fix it and make it better for everyone, we don't stress out, we don't get overwhelmed, and we don't start crying or yelling—because we are taking care of ourselves. The American Psychological Association said that holiday stress has a particular impact on women. Moms take charge of many of the holiday celebrations, particularly the tasks related to preparing meals and decorating the home. And what we want to remember is that if we can show up every day with energy and optimism—if we can be in a good mood and happy and positive—it will make all the difference for us and our families. And I'm going to give you a really simple tool to do that. I'm going to ask you to set aside 10 minutes a day. Now, it would be better if you would do an hour, but you can do this activity in 10 minutes. If you will do it every day, what that will do is—if you’ll start your day out by doing this thing I'm going to ask you to do for 10 minutes—it’s going to set a new tone. And you are going to be taking care of yourself, which is going to recenter you, and you are going to be making connections and working on gratitude and all these things so that when you come out of your room and it’s time to start working on Christmas, you are going to be in a better place. And when you're in a better place, everything is going to go better. You're going to remember your realistic expectations, and you're going to stop taking responsibility for everything because you are going to take care of you first. So I want you to go get this app, and it's called Miracle Morning. When you open it up, it's free. It's going to look like this. For those of you watching on YouTube, you can see that it says “Good Miracle Morning,” and you can set it to wake you up. There are six activities you're going to do every day, and you can click off that you've done them. The first one is silence. That is some kind of spiritual connection. It is prayer or quiet or meditation—connection with the divine. Now, for Christians, this is going to be a meaningful prayer, but it’s going to be some way that you just sit with yourself and breathe and be quiet. The next one is what they call affirmations. In the MDM Academy, we call these truth statements, where you're going to remember your realistic expectations, the memories you're trying to build for your children. Remind yourself that you can't do it all and you don't want to, and you're not going to, and it’s going to be enough for you to give your family a beautiful day, a beautiful experience. You can write these right in the app and just read them for yourself, or they have generic ones you can use. You’ll just say or read a couple little truth statements for yourself—they call them affirmations. And then you're going to visualize. You're going to sit with yourself and calmly think about how you want this holiday season to look. You can think about specific events. You can think about Christmas morning. You can see yourself feeling the way that you want to feel. You can imagine yourself having a hard conversation, or imagine yourself enjoying the Christmas holiday. And then you're going to exercise in some fashion. Then you're going to read something that lifts you, and then you're going to scribe—you’re going to write what you're grateful for and just journal for a few minutes. And the reason I said you can do this in 10 minutes is because technically you can actually do it in six minutes. You can do each of these for one minute. You can do silence for a minute, affirmations for a minute, visualize for a minute, exercise for a minute, read for a minute, and scribe for a minute—one minute each—and you'd be done in six minutes. Or you can take a little more time with each of these. You take five or ten minutes each, and sure enough, you've spent an hour and you're really renewed. You have imagined the kind of holiday season that you want to have. You have told yourself the truth about who you are and what you're creating for your family. You've done some stretching or walked around the block or gotten on the treadmill for 10 minutes and moved your body and gotten your energy up and your blood flowing. You've read something that inspires you. This can be scripture, but it can just be any good book that elevates your soul and teaches you truth and makes you feel good. And then you're going to write something—a few things that you're grateful for, journal about why this day is going to be great, why you're happy to be alive, why you feel grateful for this holiday season, why it's going to be a wonderful one. So that's how you're going to stop being responsible for everything and everyone all the time—because you are going to prepare yourself every morning for a wonderful day by using that Miracle Morning app. And we will have a link for that in the description for you. Just literally take 10 minutes, go into a quiet room, tell everyone to leave you alone, get up early, whatever you have to do. Do it before you go to bed for the next day—whatever works. And I promise it will make a huge difference. Now the last thing that we need to manage in dreading the holidays is feeling worried. I worry about all the things, obviously, because I have recurring nightmares about that. And there have been plenty of years when I was really worried about the finances and I thought that it had to be perfect, and I thought I had to buy my kids all the perfect gifts and all this kind of thing. And you know what? Most of the time, I could manage to get all of my kids at least one thing that they genuinely wanted. I mean, sometimes it can just be some fish in a fishbowl, and that’s like 15 dollars. It can be something really, really simple that would be meaningful for them—something they can look forward to from their Christmas list. So I want to give you one more tool that's going to help you to not worry, because when we remember that worrying is simply projecting into the future something that we don't want to have happen—it’s assuming the worst, it’s expecting the worst—and it's not helpful because it's really focused on fears. Worries are just fears of future events that haven't even happened, that we're bringing into our present moment. And so we’re letting the future poison the present—the future that hasn’t even happened poison the present. And we do not want to do that. We do not want to let the future poison the present. So what we're going to do instead is we're going to turn every worry into an empowering question. I've talked about this on the podcast before, and in the notes below in the description, I'm going to give you a link to a little mini training. It's just a little audio—just a few minutes—and then a little worksheet. It's not going to take you very much time, but it will walk you in more detail through how to use empowering questions in your everyday life and how to use them to stop the worries. So make sure you go grab that mini training, but I'll give you just a glimpse into what it is and why it's so incredibly helpful. So I learned this concept from a book called The Top 10 Distinctions Between Millionaires and the Middle Class by Keith Cameron Smith. And this is the last distinction. It's the number one way, he says, that the wealthy think differently than other people, and it's the simple idea that they ask themselves empowering questions. But he taught me something really, really important about something Jesus taught. We know He said over and over again, “Ask and you shall receive.” But what Keith Cameron Smith helped me understand is that because our brains are brilliant problem-solving machines, every time we ask ourselves a question, our mind wants to solve the problem. So it gets to work solving the problem—finding the answers to our questions. So when we ask, we literally always receive. And when we start to worry, and we start to think about future events that we don’t want to have happen, and then that turns into negative thoughts—and we stew and let that ruminate in our minds—we become more negative, more fearful, more upset. And now suddenly we're taking things out on people before anything has ever even happened. Empowering questions are really simple. They're questions that ask you what you can do. Disempowering questions ask you what you can't do. Empowering questions make you feel good; disempowering questions make you feel bad. So, if you’re worrying about something—like maybe you're going to see Uncle Bob and he was really rude to you when you were younger, or maybe somebody betrayed you and you have to have Christmas dinner with them, or whatever the case might be—and you’re just dreading this thing that's going to happen over the holidays, and you're worrying and worrying about it, you're not changing it by worrying about it. And if it's making you feel bad and it's focusing on what you can't control, then you know it's a worry and you need to stop. So how do you stop? You stop by turning the worry into an empowering question. Okay? So if it's Uncle Bob and I'm going to see him at this family get-together, then you can start to ask yourself empowering questions about that situation. There are all sorts of them. You could say to yourself, “What could I say to him when I see him?” “How can I have a conversation that's civil?” You could ask, “How can I see the good in him and reflect that?” You can ask, “How can I forgive him and have better feelings toward him?” You can ask yourself, “How can I have the people around me, who love me, help and support me in this situation that I'm in with Uncle Bob?” And as you sit on these empowering questions—questions that are about what you can control, not what anybody else is going to do—your brilliant mind will start to come up with solutions. And you don't need to worry that the minute you ask the question you need to have an answer. Your brilliant mind will come up with an answer. And this puts you right back into a faithful, creator frame of reference. This gets you right back into a place where you are in the driver’s seat. You can make it be what it needs to be. And if the answer to the question is “I can’t go see Uncle Bob,” then you make provisions for that to be the case. But this is really what's going to make a huge difference for you. As a man thinketh, so is he. We read in the Bible that what you focus on is going to be your result, and what you practice is what you get better at. If you practice worrying, you will get better at it. If you practice turning your worries into empowering questions that your brilliant mind will solve, then you will get better at that. And because it's focused on what you can do, and because the question makes you feel good—because you feel powerful and in control and you're focused on solutions and not problems—well then, now you're practicing being a more optimistic individual who's showing up with more positivity for yourself and the people around you. And all of that is good. All of that is what we want, especially at the holidays. We want joyful, happy memories. And you know, your kids hear you and they feel your vibe. They feel your energy. They feel when you're stressed or negative or overwhelmed. And we’re doing that, moms—we’re doing that to ourselves with our worries, our unrealistic expectations, and feeling responsible for all the things. And it just doesn't have to be that way. So please remember, this is meant to be a happy time. For Christians, this is a celebration that the Savior was born. For others, it's a time to celebrate family and love. It's a time to remember each other by giving gifts. It's a time to gather, to eat yummy food, to talk, to laugh, to play games, and to make memories. And so try to focus on these three tools that I’ve given you. Let's remember to think back on our own childhood and keep the experiences for our children simple and fun and uplifting, because it doesn't have to be elaborate. They don't care about all the decorations. They don't care about all the fancy stuff. And they are the ones that really matter the most to us. They are the ones we’re trying to do this for. So bring those traditions forward. Remember to do your Miracle Morning practice every morning. Make sure you do those five—he calls them SAVERS. Make sure you take time for prayer, visualization, truth statements, gratitude, and a little bit of movement—all of those things that will lift you up and help you show up more optimistically. And then please, in the description, click on the link and grab your mini training. Listen to the little audio as many times as you need to. It will lift you up. It will inspire you. It will remind you how you can use empowering questions. And use the worksheet—carry it around with you and use it ongoing. Print it off as many times as you want to help you become someone who knows better how to manage her mom guilt, stop worrying, and be optimistic instead. Now, I'm really excited for next week's episode. We are going to carry this theme into next week, and we're going to finish out the year by diving a little deeper into managing holiday stress by talking about shame and the role that shame can play in the relationship—in the way we're interacting, in shaming, when we shame ourselves and when other people shame us. It won't be real long, but it'll definitely be something that will help us get re-centered on taking proper care of ourselves through the holidays, seeing things more clearly, and calling shame out properly—and not letting ourselves go down that rabbit hole so that we can have a better holiday season. And then we will take a couple of weeks off, and I'm so excited for the new year. I have so many guests I'm reaching out to that I'm super excited to bring onto the show. We have some new themes and some really great content that we are gearing up to share with you. It's going to be an incredible year. As you may already know, we have brought back our MDM Celebration, which is happening next fall. That's going to be Mothers of Creation. That theme—we’ve all been waiting for it. It's going to be phenomenal. And so 2026 is going to be an incredible year for The Mission-Driven Mom and the Academy with our new workshops we talked about recently, with the Celebration coming up, and all of that good stuff. But stay tuned next week as we spend some time on shame and staying out of that over the holiday season. And if this has been helpful for you, please pass it along. Please leave a review. Subscribe. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you next time.
EP 133: The Case Against the Sexual Revolution
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ Audrey examines Louise Perry’s The Case Against the Sexual Revolution and challenges the cultural myth that the sexual revolution and modern feminism have been unqualified goods. Drawing on Perry, Leonard Sachs, Ludwig von Mises, and Alexis de Tocqueville, she argues that treating sex as a casual leisure activity and insisting that men and women are “the same” has largely benefited a small group of predatory men while deeply harming women, children, and families. The episode highlights strong scientific evidence that men and women are biologically and psychologically different, and that equality does not mean sameness. When society tears down moral “fences” around sex—chastity, modesty, marriage, and clear gender norms—women lose protection, family life breaks down, and freedom itself erodes. Audrey contrasts today’s confusion with Tocqueville’s description of early American women: educated, virtuous, respected, protected, and vital to the nation’s strength. Ultimately, Audrey calls mothers to push back against the lies of the sexual revolution, to teach their children to be ladies and gentlemen, to honor traditional sexual morals, and to defend marriage and family as the best system for taming male impulses, safeguarding women and children, and rebuilding a healthy, free society. ____________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life, founder of The Mission-Driven Mom. Make sure and go to themissiondrivenmom.com and get your three free chapters of my book The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World, because that will give you an overview of everything that we do here and how you can get started on your own mission-driven journey. Today, we're going to spend a few minutes with The Case Against the Sexual Revolution and Louise Perry. It is kind of, in our culture, an undisputed fact that the sexual revolution and the feminist movement were 100% good—that they changed the world for the better, that women are so liberated and so much better off. But lately, in the last two or three years, there have been quite a few books coming out by scholars and researchers and authors that are pushing back against that narrative. We are 60 years in—60, 70 years in—and now we have an opportunity to stand up and look around at the world that the sexual revolution and the feminist movement gave us. And I am pushing back on that as well with these authors. My plan is, in the coming year, to talk to more of these authors, to write more about this, and to make some of these tools and ideas and truths available to all of us as mothers and women, because it is imperative that we understand all of the damage that the sexual revolution and the feminist movement did. And, you know, you're just not allowed to say that in today's world. You're just not allowed to say that it wasn't all beautiful and perfect and roses from these movements. But it definitely was not. We are experiencing the damage done. So, we're going to touch on a few things today. I'll take you into this book and a few other books that I thought of today just to talk around this idea for a few minutes. This book is, as you can guess, Louise Perry's research on some of the damage that the sexual revolution has done. Now, she starts out the book by talking about Marilyn Monroe and Hugh Hefner. And what you might not know is that they’re pretty intimately connected. Marilyn Monroe was at a point of desperation. She was trying to be a model, and she went and had some nude photos done. She wasn’t paid very much money, and this photographer promised her that they wouldn’t be published—blah, blah, blah—all the lies that people say. And a few years later, when she had quite a bit more fame, Hugh Hefner decided that he was going to launch Playboy magazine, and he was going to launch it with a centerfold of Marilyn Monroe. The man who had taken the photos of Marilyn promised her that she would barely be recognizable, but she’s definitely recognizable in the photos. And because she was famous by this point, it definitely launched Playboy, and it was successful from that point on. Now, if you know very much about Marilyn Monroe, you probably know that she had a very troubled childhood. She spent some time in foster care. She didn’t really have a sense of self, and I don’t know at what point she was abused, but she was definitely abused by men. And then Louise says this: today’s female porn performers are far more likely than their peers to have been sexually abused as children, to have been in foster care, and to have been victims of domestic violence as adults. All misfortunes Monroe suffered too. “When it all goes horribly wrong, as it usually does, the public labels these once-desired women crazy and moves on. There is never a reckoning with what sexual liberation does to those who follow its directives most obediently.” And I would say, if I had to give you in a nutshell what Louise Perry is saying in this book, it's something like this: even though there are a few things we might be able to thank the sexual revolution or the feminist movement for, there’s a lot of damage that has been done. And it’s moved us away from meaningful sexual interactions. It’s moved us away from family relationships and bonds and commitments. And male predators have actually been the biggest winners. It’s actually women who have suffered at the hands of the small percentage of men who have a tendency toward violence. So, I want to read you a few things that Louise says early on in the book in regard to these ideas. She says that she used to be quite liberal in her frame of reference, and she says about the book—this is really fascinating—she says, “The sexual revolution of the 1960s stuck, and its ideology is now the ideological sea we swim in, so normalized that we can hardly see it for what it is.” And so, she’s trying to bring to the surface fundamental ideas and assumptions from the sexual revolution and ask—ask ourselves—why is that not okay? How did that play out in the real world? Why was that a bad idea? In fact, I’ll tell you really quickly before we dive into it, these are the chapter headings, which I think will compel you to maybe go out and get this book and read some of it for yourself: Chapter 1: Sex Must Be Taken Seriously Chapter 2: Men and Women Are Different Chapter 3: Some Desires Are Bad Chapter 4: Loveless Sex Is Not Empowering Chapter 5: Consent Is Not Enough Chapter 6: Violence Is Not Love Chapter 7: People Are Not Products Chapter 8: Marriage Is Good Conclusion: Listen to Your Mother And I am going to just float around some of the beginning chapters of this book and give you some other frame of reference from some other thinkers. I’m just going to give you some other quotes and ideas from other authors that I thought of while I was reading this and preparing this for you, just to give you some jumping-off places to start to think differently about the sexual revolution and where it has led us. For many of you, you’re God-fearing, conservative women. You already think it’s a bunch of nonsense or it hasn’t done good things, but it’s often so difficult to communicate why—what it is that’s actually wrong, what it is that you’re actually upset about—and that’s what books like this can do for you. Okay? So she goes into, “I used to follow this narrative and think it was a good idea. I used to be quite liberal,” and she says, to be upfront, this book is not an attempt to reckon with some of the changes from the sexual revolution. She says, “I want to avoid the accounts typically offered by liberals addicted to a narrative of progress and conservatives addicted to a narrative of decline.” She wants to try to land somewhere in the middle, but with the understanding that she has now become far more conservative in her thinking, the more research she has done. She says, “I’m writing in a more deliberate and focused way against a liberal narrative of sexual liberation, which I think is not only wrong but also harmful. “My complaint is focused more against liberals than against conservatives for a very personal reason: I used to believe the liberal narrative.” And then she goes on, “I held the same political views as most millennial urban graduates. In other words, I conformed to the beliefs of my class, including liberal feminist ideas about porn, BDSM, hookup culture, evolutionary psychology, sex trading, and so on. “I let go of these beliefs because of my own life experiences, including a period immediately after university spent working at a rape crisis center.” She says, “If the old quip tells us that a conservative is just a liberal who has been mugged by reality, then I suppose, at least in my case, that a post-liberal feminist is just a liberal feminist.” Okay? So that’s her position. That’s where she’s coming from, and I’m going to give you some fundamental ideas about what else she’s trying to do with this book. Now, one of the things that's happened in our culture—and in fact Jacques Barzun talks about this in his big, fat book on the history of the West—he talks about how there’s a handful of key ideas that we have glommed onto. We’ve made them our core values, and for 500 years since the 1500s, we’ve marched forward with those, and we get more and more eccentric, I guess, with these ideas, with these values over time. And we lean into them more and more and more, to the point of tilting in the other direction. And one of the points that she makes is that freedom is only good when it’s balanced with other values and first principles. What’s happened with this ideology of sexual liberation is that it hasn’t been balanced with other values. She says, “In this book, I’m going to ask and seek to answer some questions about freedom that liberal feminism can’t or won’t answer.” Here are some of the questions: Why do so many women desire a kind of sexual freedom that so obviously serves male interests? What if our bodies and minds aren’t as malleable as we might like to think? What do we lose when we prioritize freedom above all else? And above all, how should we act given all of this? And her argument is that we aren’t as malleable as we think we are—that we’re hardwired in some very concrete and important ways that we’re ignoring. One of the big ideas from the sexual revolution that is ruining people, ruining relationships, and ruining our culture is that sex is just a leisure activity. Just a leisure activity. That’s so important to understand, because when you pair that idea with the idea of unlimited, unbridled personal freedom, then you get what we’re experiencing today. She says this suits the likes of Hefner very nicely, since playboys like him have a lot to gain from this new sexual culture. It is in their interest to push a particularly radical idea about sex that has come out of the sexual revolution and has proved remarkably influential despite its harms—that sex is nothing more than a leisure activity. That it’s not special, that it’s not unique, that it doesn’t mean anything, that we should be able to just engage in that activity and walk away with no emotions and no attachments and no baggage. It’s a big fat lie, and it’s one of the reasons why sex has now become commoditized, and it is doing so much harm to so many people. In fact, she talks about how this led to the #MeToo movement, because men were given more and more access to women as women offered their bodies because they felt like they had to—because that was the new culture. She says the story of the sexual revolution isn’t the story of women freed from the burdens of chastity and motherhood—although it is that. It is also a story of the triumph of the playboy, a figure who is too often both forgotten and forgiven despite his central role in this still-recent history. And she talks about how Marilyn Monroe died young and was shamed and all of the things, and then Hugh Hefner lived to a ripe old age in his wealth and didn’t pay nearly as big a price. She goes on to say, “Everyone knows that sex is not the same thing as making coffee. And when an ideology of sexual disenchantment demands that we pretend otherwise, the result can be a distressing form of cognitive dissonance.” So a big reason why this kind of thing is happening is our new idea about the equality of the sexes. And one of the things that a lot of really important philosophers and thinkers have tried to point out, but which hasn’t made it into the mainstream narrative, is simply this: equality is not sameness. We can be equal without being the same—without wearing the same clothes, doing the same jobs, thinking the same things, and especially not being the same sexually. And there's a lot of evidence around that being the case. I pulled out this book Why Gender Matters. I thought I'd talk to you for just a minute about some of the things that Leonard Sax has to say. He’s an MD and a PhD. He’s absolutely brilliant, and he has written an older book and a newer book—Why Gender Matters. I’ve had both copies. They cover a little bit different things, both very good and valuable. But he has a few things to say about his story about why he got into this. It was because he was working with children, and parents kept being told to do gender-neutral parenting and to raise their children the same. And yet it wasn’t working, and they couldn’t figure out why it wasn’t working. So here are a couple of the things that he has to say about how biologically different we really are. He says, “After waiting a few years for somebody else to write a book about girls and boys based on actual scientific research, I finally decided to write one myself. But I made myself a promise: every time I make any statement about how girls and boys are different, I also state the evidence on which my statement is based. Every statement I make about sex differences will be supported by good science published in peer-reviewed journals.” And he does that. He goes through all of these biological differences—so many. And the combination of those factors and other biological factors also leads to very different priorities and very different approaches and attitudes about sexual behavior as well. He goes on: “There’s more at stake than the old question of nature versus nurture. The failure to recognize and respect sex differences in child development has done substantial harm over the past 30 years.” Such was his claim throughout this book. And this first one was written in 2005, and so it had been, you know, since the eighties. And his big focus is the damage that ignoring sex differences was doing in education—not the sexual act, but the genders, as we call them today. But the sexes, that we really are very different—that our gender does matter, that we need to be treated differently and educated differently and thought about differently. And the mindset of, in terms of the sexual revolution—on what Louise Perry is talking about—the mindset that sex is just a leisure activity that doesn’t mean anything, and that everybody’s exactly the same and there are no differences. In fact, she goes back to Rousseau and other philosophers before him that talk about the socialization argument, that that’s really ingrained. And Leonard Sax says he was indoctrinated with that at school as well. He was taught the John Money story as evidence that the genders were the same and you could flip-flop them in childhood and they would come out okay. And of course, we know how that story played out with John Money and the boys and their later suicides and all of that nonsense. So he goes on to talk about the first kind of key for him—hearing. The boys’ and girls’ hearing was very different. And he cites this study. It was a study done with newborn babies on the day they were born—102 of them. They were videotaped, and their eye motions were analyzed by researchers who didn’t know the sex of the baby. The boy babies were much more interested in the mobile than in the young woman’s face. The girl babies were more likely to look at the face. The differences were large. The boys were twice as likely to prefer the mobile. The researchers concluded that they had proven “beyond reasonable doubt” that sex differences in social interest “are in part biological in origin.” Surprise, surprise. There’s the anatomy of the eye, there’s the anatomy of the ear. There’s a lot of research around the brain and very large differences in the brain. We’re not talking about small differences between the sexes with lots of overlap. We’re talking about large differences between the sexes with no overlap at all. In this particular case, he’s talking about the eye. Every male animal had a thicker retina than any female retina due to the males having more M cells. So then he says here, talking also about the eye, the P cells send information, the M cells send their information via different pathways, etc., etc.—a region that is specialized for analysis of spatial relationships and object motion. And guess what? Every step in each pathway from the retina to the cerebral cortex is different in females and males. So it isn’t just that they have more of this or that. Every single step of the way—just in analyzing the eye—it’s different. It’s different with smell, it’s different with speaking, with language that’s used, when it’s used, how it’s developed. And even in adults we know there are large differences between communication styles and emotional awareness and all these kinds of things that are just incredibly hardwired. And so a big part of what Louise Perry is saying here is that we have to get honest about the fact that men and women are very different. And because they're different, their mindsets, their approaches, their attitudes about sex are different. And what’s happening with our current attitude is that the men are winning. The men are getting more of what they want, and the women are the biggest losers. The women want intimacy. They want connection. They want commitment. And they want families—as they always have. And the sexual revolution has given them far less of any of that. And some women have been so indoctrinated that they think that maybe they don’t want that, and then they realize later in life that they do, and then it feels like it’s too late or they’ve missed out, etc., etc. I have a book somewhere around here called What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us, and she makes the same case as well—that she was indoctrinated with the feminist movement ideological tenets and concepts. And she and other women her age realized too late that they actually wanted what was taken from them through the feminist movement. She says the blank-slate view—that socialization is everything, that all that matters is what society tells us, that we’re only playing roles as this Judith Butler idea, that it’s all… what’s the word she uses… like it’s all play-acting. We’re all just taking on the identity of a gender and playing it out. None of its innate. None of it is biological. And so because that’s the case, we can flip-flop between without much interruption or struggle, and society should just adapt to that, and none of this other stuff matters. And she says the blank-slate view gives ultimate authority to society in molding the human character for good or ill. But the truth is many things are very baked in, and we know this to be the case from science. And this is what I think really frustrates me the most—that those who claim to be so analytical and scientifically based throw out the science. They pretend like science is supporting them in these new worldviews and ideologies, and it’s just not. It’s just a different belief system. It’s just a different worldview, which we talk a lot about in the Academy. It’s just a different belief system. And the mindset that we’re completely the same, that sex is just a leisure activity and has no meaning and no emotional or psychological consequences, has basically opened the door to men who don’t want to and aren’t willing to suppress their impulses. That’s really the consequence that we’re looking at in today’s world. Perry says there is a more credible way of understanding the world, but it is one that offers much less scope for human perfectibility, and so it’s much less appealing to utopians. So people that are—and this of course reminded me of A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell and the whole concept that we see the world broadly through one of these two lenses. One is that it’s all socialization and we can perfect the human race, and this is kind of the post-humanist movement. And then the other one says we’re hardwired, there are some things we can’t change, we should go with many of the traditions and things that have gone on before because they work for the human race. Now, you don’t have to have a certain God frame of reference for either of those. Louise Perry talks a lot about evolution. Sounds like that’s her frame of reference, but of course I believe a lot of what she’s saying. One of the people that I thought about when I was thinking about all of these concepts was Ludwig von Mises, who is one of the founders of the Austrian School of Economics. That’s his Human Action book, which is basically an approach to economics that says we’re going to look at human behavior instead of numbers to start, because human behavior is actually what creates an economy, and it’s organic and it grows up on its own. And if we understand laws of human action—we talk a lot here at The Mission Driven Mom about laws of human behavior, laws of nature, the ideal way of being, the first principles we should follow. Mises talks about the laws of human action—the way people do behave, the way they make decisions. Also really, really helpful. We get into that in Level 3. The point is, one of the things that Perry goes on to say as she gets into the next chapter—and I want to find this section to read to you—she says she first came across a book called A Natural History of Rape by Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer, who had done extensive research to try to explain rape from an evolutionary perspective. And she said, “When I first came across the book, I read it compulsively all in one sitting and was left by the end feeling both disconsolate and oddly satisfied. “I was working at the time in a rape crisis center. My job was to work one-on-one with women and girls who had been raped, but I also had a teaching role, training volunteers for our helpline and going into schools to teach consent workshops. The ideology that I was expected to teach lent heavily on a very particular academic model of rape, and over time I had developed doubts about the model.” So again, she has this really unique history with the kinds of things that she’s done and the kinds of spaces that she’s been in. And basically, the idea that she was taught and that she was supposed to teach at this rape crisis center was Susan Brownmiller’s book Against Our Will—the claim that rape has historically more often been conceptualized as a property crime committed against a woman’s male kin rather than a crime committed against the woman herself. Basically, the idea that we have to end the patriarchy and then rape will go away. And she goes on to combat that, to give a bunch of studies to basically show that almost all sex crime is male, that almost all pornography consumption is male, that they have a different sex drive, that they have different sexual tastes, and that they are the ones who are driving those things in the culture—again, like the Hugh Hefner example of the playboy who gets his way. And the problem is that we’ve brought down the guardrails, and so at this point the only guardrail that we have in our culture is a man’s self-discipline. If he really wants to take advantage of a woman, then he just can, unless he stops himself. And so the only thing between him and this woman getting in trouble are him controlling himself, and that’s just not a good way to go. Of course, she quotes Chesterton’s fence, which I think I’ve quoted on this podcast before, which is the basic idea that if you’re going down a country road and you come across a fence and you want to get through to the other side of the road because you like the countryside and you want to keep going, then you shouldn’t just dismantle the fence and drive on. You should stop long enough to ask yourself why the fence is there. And once you understand why the fence is there, and it’s a reason that’s no longer needed, then you can dismantle the fence. And this argument is used a lot when conservatives especially are combating progressive ideas, to say: stop and ask, why are the guardrails there? Why is the fence there? Why do we have all this shame around premarital sex? Why are we discouraging people from getting into bed anytime they want? Why are we pretending like that’s okay? And let’s find out why the fence is there, why those guardrails are there. And one of the things that we said was, “Oh, the guardrails are only there because women can get pregnant.” And with that lead idea, we just proceeded to take down the fence and drive into the utopia of perfect sexual fulfillment for everyone. And actually that’s not what’s happening. You know, all of these kinds of violent sexual crime are way up, and porn use is way up, and men are having a lot of negative consequences with that, and it’s affecting all sorts of marriages. And marriage is down, and pregnancy is down, and birth rates are down, and yet 40% of children are born out of wedlock. And there’s only 20% of families where there’s a mother and a father and their biological children still in the home. And so there’s all this damage done culturally, and it’s breaking down the fabric of our society because we thought the only guardrail that matters is that women get pregnant. And then when we gave them the pill, there were more unwanted pregnancies because everybody decided that was going to save them. And so they just engaged in all this behavior, and then we had to have laws to legalize abortion so that we could get rid of those unwanted pregnancies. And then came the dissolution of the family and marriage and all those consequences that are now doing so much damage to so many people, because we started on the premise of these lies about what sex is, what matters about it, and why the guardrails are there. She says, “We see this play out in male and female sexual behavior. The research is clear. We know that men, on average, prefer to have more sex and with a larger number of partners, that sex buyers are almost exclusively male, that men watch a lot more porn than women do, and that the vast majority of women, if given the option, prefer a committed relationship to casual sex. “Sexual fetishes are also much more commonly found in men than in women, and although the cause of this difference is not well understood, men’s greater average sociosexuality seems to be a factor. All in all, the evidence demonstrates that the acts that have become much more socially acceptable over the last 60 years are acts that men are much more likely to enjoy. It is a good time to be a fetishist, a sex buyer, porn user, playboy. It is the highly sociosexual who have done best out of sexual liberalism, and these people are overwhelmingly male.” She even talks about, in almost all sexual crimes, if the woman is involved, she almost always has a male partner—that she’s assisting a male that’s engaging in that act. Now, I’m going to do something that’s going to be super socially unacceptable, something that people aren’t going to like. Well, let me do this first—I want to read you what Mises says about this whole idea, because she goes back to, “Well, let’s look at animals. Let’s see how animals behave,” and all that kind of stuff. But I don’t love that argument because we do see animals acting in ways that humans shouldn’t act. We are higher than the animals. We are better than the animals, and we shouldn’t be acting as the animals, even though as a very baseline maybe we compare and say we’re doing worse than the animals, but we have the potential to be better than, and even worse than, animals. So this is what Mises says. He’s talking about human behavior, about mankind, about human action and human action principles—how we make the choices that we make, and then ultimately how those actions drive an economy. But just in terms of those fundamental first principles that guide us, I love what Mises says here. “He who acts under an emotional impulse also acts. What distinguishes an emotional action from other actions is the valuation of input and output. Emotions disarrange valuations. Inflamed with passion, man sees the goal as more desirable and the price he has to pay for it as less burdensome than he would in cool deliberation. Men have never doubted that even in the state of emotion means and ends are pondered, and that it is possible to influence the outcome of this deliberation by rendering more costly the yielding to the passionate impulse. To punish criminal offenses committed in a state of emotional excitement or intoxication more mildly than other offenses is tantamount to encouraging such excesses.” So the first point that he’s making is that when we get highly emotional and we act out in that state, we are less self-governed, and we make worse choices that have worse consequences, and that from a criminal standpoint, in our judicial systems and our penal systems, if we give lighter sentences to people who did it because they were emotional, we’re encouraging people to be emotional and make decisions emotionally. He says, “We interpret animal behavior on the assumption that the animal yields to the impulse which prevails at the moment. As we observe that the animal feeds, cohabits and attacks other animals or men, we speak of its instincts of nourishment, of reproduction and of aggression. We assume that such instincts are innate and pre-emptively ask for satisfaction.” So in other words, we have human beings, and they act on emotion, and that makes their actions less valuable for them and others. It makes them worse in every way. And if we compare our behavior to animals, we make exceptions for them because they have impulses, and we say, “Oh, well, that was their impulse. They had to do that.” And then this conclusion: “But it is different with man”—or mankind or humankind. “Man is not a being who cannot help yielding to the impulse that most urgently asks for satisfaction. Man is a being capable of subduing his instincts, emotions and impulses. He can rationalize his behavior. He renounces the satisfaction of a burning impulse in order to satisfy other desires. He is not a puppet of his appetites.” So even though we do sometimes make rash decisions based on passion, we don’t have to. We are above the animals because we have reason and logic and self-control. We don’t have to act according to our impulses. We can stop and think, and we can decide what’s best for us and for others and choose those things instead. “A man does not ravish every female that stirs his senses.” And yet more men ravish females that stir their senses than they used to, because we keep bringing the guardrails down, because our society tells women that they should want to have casual sex, that it will be enjoyable for them, that they should participate in it to get a man’s attention, that they have to do it to compete for the men that they would want to marry, that they have to give men what they want in order to try to get them to make a commitment so that eventually they can have marriage and family. This does not mean women don’t have sexual impulses. It doesn’t mean that they don’t desire men, and it doesn’t mean sometimes that they don’t act rashly. But we know statistically, without a doubt, that even in the moment they often are second-guessing themselves, don’t want to continue with the action, and have way more regrets than men do when they engage in that behavior. It just isn’t how they’re made, and it’s not satisfying for them, and it degrades them. It hurts their confidence, destroys relationships—especially their relationship with themself. So then he goes on: “He does not devour every piece of food that entices him. He does not knock down every fellow he would like to kill. He arranges his wishes and desires into a scale. He chooses. In short, he acts. What distinguishes man from beast is precisely that he adjusts his behavior deliberately. Man is the being that has inhibitions, that can master his impulses and desires, that has the power to suppress instinctive desires and impulses.” So when you take a society and you say, “All the guardrails are down. Do whatever you want. Take this pill. If it doesn’t work, go get this abortion and you’ll be fine. You’ll be fine socially, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually—everything will be fine,” and that’s not what we find. It’s not what’s happening at all. And so clearly that’s not what can work. Now, one of the things she talks about in chapter three is that some desires are bad. Obviously. But when, again, you strip it from its moral context, you take God out of the picture, you don’t have societal mores and structures and guardrails, then what is right and wrong in that instance? And you can make almost anything right. You can justify almost anything in your mind. And one of the things that I wrote down about that whole thing is that the reason why unbridled sexual behavior is so damaging to society—aside from the millions of things that I’ve already mentioned and all the things that you can think of—is this simple truth. And that is that society is made up of individuals, and individuals are harmed when they do something immoral, even when they do it alone, even when they do it with no one looking, even when no one ever finds out about it. Their character is damaged. They aren’t as confident, they aren’t as faithful, they aren’t as trustworthy, they aren’t as generous or kind, or all the things that you might want to say about someone who’s ignoring their conscience and engaging in behaviors. Or even if their conscience is deadened and they think it’s okay, it’s not okay because it damages them. And when individuals are harmed through their own lack of self-control and deviation from their conscience or from truth—whether or not they know that truth—society is harmed, because society is nothing more than a collection of individuals and families. And when individuals are damaged and families are damaged, society is damaged. And so this is why we have to push back on the sexual revolution. This is why we have to tell ourselves and other people more of the truth. And I am going to do something—I mentioned this a little bit earlier—I’m going to do something that’s going to sound socially unacceptable. And that is, I’m going to pull out my Tocqueville. Okay. This is Democracy in America. This is Alexis de Tocqueville. He was French. He came to America to study the penal system in the early to mid-1800s. He went home, he wrote this big fat book, Democracy in America. France is in trouble. They’ve just come off their revolution and their time with the little guy that was in charge, Napoleon. And now they’re trying to remake their civilization. And Tocqueville is like, okay, well, what’s it like in America? How’s this democracy experiment working out? And he goes through and catalogs—I mean, he is here for, I think, two years. He goes all over the country, he goes out in the sticks, he talks to people in their cabins. He gets a really good sense of what people are like in America, of what the culture is like, of how they interact and all of that kind of stuff. And he’s mostly praising. He’s also contrasting: this is how they do it in America, this is how we do it in France. And there’s this little section where he talks about women and the role of women in—now, this isn’t to do with slavery, this isn’t to do with Native Americans. He’s talking about the Europeans that came to America that were leading in the society and how they’re interacting—the colonial people, just the average citizen in America. And I’m not going to speak to the fact that yes, minorities were taken way more advantage of and that needed to be handled and all that kind of stuff. I’m just going to talk to what Tocqueville says, which I think may surprise you about how women were treated in America, because one of the points that Perry makes—and in fact, I’ll give you this. Okay, so one of the points that she makes early on, which is also part of this whole discussion about what’s gone wrong in the sexual revolution, is that what the culture does is it demonizes the past in order to justify the present. She says, “Within living memory, we have witnessed a very sudden break with the norms of the past, and the necessity of this break is constantly justified in the liberal media through reference to the bad old days.” This kind of present-criticism is parodied beautifully in a 2020 TV adaptation of Huxley’s Brave New World, in which the Savage Lands—more like an Indian reservation in the novel—are reimagined as a theme park devoted to a 21st-century American decline. Okay, so she goes on talking about how they talk about these Savage Lands, blah, blah, blah. And then she says, “This regime encourages the citizens of New London”—this is in the book—“to visit the Savage Land theme park because demonizing the past serves to justify the status quo. Highlighting the evils of the past also serves to distract from the evils of the present.” So what we’ve done in our modern culture, in order to push this feminist movement and sexual revolution forward, is that there’s been this narrative that everything in the past was awful, nothing good was going on, and everything is so much better now. But what I’m going to read to you right now from Tocqueville points out the fact that it wasn’t all worse in the past and better in the present. Okay, so this was originally published—1840. So that’s kind of the timeframe that we’re looking at. So he’s talking about women, and he came from France, and so he’s like, wow, things are so different in America in terms of how they treat their women. So first of all, he talks about how it’s his opinion—and not just his, but a lot of other philosophers have said—that women really are the moral anchor in a family and in a civilization, and that in America, in this time, women were really that for their society, that they got a better education than pretty much anywhere in the world because most women were taught to read, which was just not even happening anywhere else. He says, “Long before an American girl arrives at the marriageable age, her emancipation from maternal control begins. She has scarcely ceased to be a child when she already thinks for herself, speaks with freedom and acts on her own impulse. The great scene of the world is constantly open to her view; far from seeking to conceal it from her, it is every day disclosed more completely, and she is taught to survey it with firm and calm gaze. Thus, the vices and dangers of society are early revealed to her, and she sees them clearly. She views them without illusion and braves them without fear, for she is full of reliance on her own strength, and her confidence seems to be shared by all around her.” And he kind of beats that drum. He talks often about how the women in America are incredibly educated and courageous. They’re trusted and respected by the men in their culture. He says, “As they could not prevent her virtue from being exposed to frequent danger, they determined that she should know how best to defend it, and more reliance was placed on the free vigor of her will than on safeguards which had been shaken or overthrown. Instead, then, of inculcating mistrust of herself, they constantly seek to enhance her confidence in her own strength of character. Far from hiding the corruptions of the world from her, they prefer that she should see them at once and train herself to shun them.” This is just very different than what’s going on in France, where there’s all this overprotection of women. “Although the Americans are a very religious people, they do not rely on religion alone to defend the virtue of women; they seek to arm her reason also. In this respect, they have followed the same method as in several others. They first make vigorous efforts to cause individual independence to control itself, and they do not call in the aid of religion until they have reached the utmost limit of human strength.” This is something—if you’ve read the Little House books, I can’t remember which one it’s in, maybe Little Town on the Prairie. There’s a Fourth of July celebration, and Laura Ingalls goes into town and hears the Declaration of Independence read, and it mingles in her mind. And she comes to understand at 14 or 15 or 16 years old, however old she was, that pretty soon she would be an adult, and no one was going to tell her what to do, that her parents were already letting go and letting her make her own choices. And she says, “I’m going to have to basically make myself mind myself. I’m going to have to be a woman of virtue and self-discipline if I want to be free and have a happy life.” And she says specifically that virtue and freedom are so intimately connected, and you cannot have freedom unless you have self-discipline. They are two sides of the same coin. And that’s one of the reasons why private and public duty were so talked about in that day. It’s one of the reasons why there’s a breakdown socially in our day, because we think that unbridled freedom is what makes us free. It’s the same with the sexual revolution. It’s just this fundamental principle that freedom must be disciplined. I love—one of my very favorite quotes is by Mortimer Adler, and he says, “Liberal education frees our minds by disciplining them.” And so this is why the sexual revolution isn’t working. Because we are not disciplining ourselves. We have decided that anything goes, and we keep making more and more things legal. And what that has meant is that sexual acts have become a commodity, because people think they own their own body and what they do with their body doesn’t matter. And then they destroy their body, or they harm their body and their character with their behavior. And that demeans our society overall, because every individual matters, and every individual character is part of the fabric of the cultural character. It also means that we’re telling ourselves that in this realm, as in others, we don’t have to have discipline, which is so fascinating to me, because we’ll still talk about how much discipline we should have as parents, or how much discipline we should have in professional sports, or how much discipline we should have in whatever area of life. And we just keep wanting to take shortcuts, like all the people that are on pills, you know, to shortcut whatever thing they want to have happen in their life, instead of adhering to the principles of that thing in order to get what they want in the more permanent fix—the fix that gives them what they want while it builds their character. So it’s, he says here, “I am aware that an education of this kind is not without danger. I’m sensible that it tends to invigorate the judgment at the expense of the imagination, and to make cold and virtuous women instead of affectionate wives and agreeable companions to man. Society may be more tranquil and better regulated, but domestic life has fewer charms. These, however, are secondary evils which may be braved for the sake of higher interests. At the stage at which we have now arrived, the choice is no longer left to us.” A democratic education—and this is an education for freedom. This is what we would call a classical liberal education, the traditional education that we used to have that has been stolen from us, that many of you moms that are listening have never had the opportunity to have. And it is what made these women of the past so disciplined and virtuous and the upholders. Anyway. “Democratic education is indispensable to protect a woman from the dangers with which democratic institutions and manners surround them.” So as freedom is increased, women need to be more and more virtuous. Okay, so then he goes on, talking about women in different ways, about how courageous they are. And then he has a few things to say like this: “Although the travelers who have visited North America differ on many points, they all agree in remarking that morals are far more strict there than elsewhere. It is evident that on this point, the Americans are very superior to their progenitors, the English.” So this morality undergirds the civilization. It makes for the incredible freedom, and if you go back and look at records, you can see that it corresponds with other elements of growth and success. Okay, now I’m going to talk for just one minute before we finish up about how all of this plays into, going back to the beginning, about equality of the sexes. Because what we’ve done is try to eradicate self-discipline, eradicate virtue, pretend like personal character doesn’t matter, pretend like everything—like it’s not the case that every action we take is building the kind of person we’re becoming and that that doesn’t matter at all. All of those things matter. And also that we’re different. We can be equal but different. And what we’re doing in our society—what the feminist movement has done, what the sexual revolution is doing—is trying to create equal and same. And what we had earlier in America was equal but different. And although that meant certain consequences for certain people, certain limitations of what they could do, they had incredible autonomy. Basically what you find in earlier civilizations and in earlier America is almost complete autonomy in the private realm for women, where they ran the private sector almost without men interrupting or butting into their business. They ran the charities, they ran the bazaars, they helped give birth to the babies and put on the weddings, and they did a lot of educating at home. They did a lot of the charitable work and the giving and all of that because they didn’t have to worry about the public sector, because the men ran the public sector. And I can see why women would want to be more involved in the public sector and why they would want to have more freedom in that way, be able to vote and whatnot. And I’m not saying that that is a bad thing. I’m just saying, let’s stop pretending like everything today is peachy keen and everything in the past was terrible. So I’m going to read you a couple things as we finish up here. “There are people in Europe who, confounding together the different characteristics of the sexes, would make man and woman into beings not only equal but alike. They would give to both the same functions, impose on both the same duties and grant to both the same rights. They would mix them in all things—their occupations, their pleasures, their business.” And isn’t that where we’ve arrived? Isn’t that what’s happening? Aren’t we trying to be equal and same? I mean, didn’t the feminist movement tell us that we should dress like men and act like men—even sexually—that we should do what they do and go where they go and be in the same positions that they’re in, and that every time something like that happens, we call it a triumph? While, in the meantime, fewer and fewer babies are being born to a two-parent family and being cared for full-time by their mother. And that’s not always possible, and I’m not blaming anybody or calling anybody out. I’m just saying society is suffering by some of these changes. And so we have to be careful in how we talk about the past and how we talk about the present and the kind of solutions that we think we want. He goes on, “It may readily be conceived that by thus attempting to make one sex equal to the other, both are degraded.” Men don’t know who they are. Women don’t know who they are. We can’t even define what a woman is because we’ve made them the same. He says, “And from so preposterous a medley of the works of nature nothing could ever result but weak men and disorderly women.” Now he goes on to talk about how men and women have very strict divisions of labor, more so than a lot of other places. He says, “There are two clearly distinct lines of action for the two sexes and to make them keep pace with one another, but in two pathways that are always different. American women never manage the outward concerns of the family, or conduct a business, or take part in political life; nor are they, on the other hand, ever compelled to perform the rough labor of the fields or to make any of those laborious efforts which demand the exertion of physical strength. And no families are so poor as to form an exception to this rule.” So even though there are limitations on the kinds of things women can do, they also are never forced to do any particular thing, especially anything that is a man’s role. And they also have complete freedom within the realm in which they’re stationed. They contribute economically to the family, they run the family, and they have a lot of autonomy. And he says, a lot of people look at this and they’re like, “Oh, isn’t that too bad?” And he says, “I never observed that the women of America consider conjugal authority as a fortunate usurpation of their rights, or that they thought themselves degraded by submitting to it.” So his experience in America was that women felt respected. They felt loved. They felt taken care of as a general rule. They enjoyed the role that they held in the home and in the family, and they were happy to submit to good men who took good care of them. And what you find today—and this isn’t popular to say—is that a lot of women want to be stay-at-home moms, and a lot of women want to be taken care of. There’s this new trend—in fact, someone was telling me that members of my family are engaging in this new trend of “stay-at-home girlfriend.” They also have the “trad wives.” All these kinds of things are looping back. So now he’s going to compare it to France. “It’s often been remarked that in Europe a certain degree of contempt lurks even in the flattery which men lavish upon women. Although a European frequently affects to be a slave of women”—so in France and in Europe, men will pretend like they worship women and they think women are all of that and they’re incredible—“but it may be seen that he never sincerely thinks her his equal.” Now again, you have to take time periods, where they’re at in so many ways. In America in 1840, we were way ahead of the curve. Women were treated with way more respect, with way more equality, given way more education, way more frame in which to work and have autonomy than many, if not all, other places in the world. He says, “In the United States, men seldom compliment women”—so they don’t do this thing like in France where they’re always talking about how gorgeous they are and being flirty—“but they daily show how much they esteem them. They constantly display an entire confidence in the understanding of a wife and a profound respect for her freedom. They have decided that her mind is just as fitted as that of a man to discover the plain truth and her heart as firm to embrace it; and they have never sought to place her virtue, any more than his, under the shelter of prejudice, ignorance or fear. “Americans rarely lavish women with these eager attentions which are commonly paid them in Europe, but their conduct to women always implies that they suppose them to be virtuous and refined. Such is the respect entertained for the moral freedom of the sex that, in the presence of a woman, the most guarded language is used, lest her ear should be offended by an expression.” So they honor and respect her virtue. They watch their tongues. They’re careful in their behavior. They treat her with incredible respect, but they listen to her. They care about her opinion. They take it into consideration, and they give her freedom and autonomy in her role. And then it says, “The legislators of the United States, who have mitigated almost all the penalties of criminal law, still make rape a capital offense, and no crime is visited with more inexorable severity by public opinion. “They consider nothing more precious than a woman’s honor and nothing which ought so much to be respected as her independence. They hold that no punishment is too severe for a man who deprives her of them against her will.” So if you committed rape, you were killed. And we don’t even have those strict of laws today. So we’ve loosened up our laws. We’ve made it harder and harder to convict, because there’s more and more sexual acts being committed, and even sometimes the women aren’t sure if they were consenting. And consenting is not the way to have a guardrail around sexual behavior. It just doesn’t work. And Louise Perry goes into why that’s the case. It says, “Thus, the Americans do not think that men and women have either the duty or the right to perform the same offices, but they show an equal regard for both in their respective parts; and though their lot is different, they consider both of them as beings of equal value.” So there was good stuff going on. His impression and experience in America was that, as a general rule, women were content with their role. They felt educated, intelligent, respected, loved and honored in their role, and their virtue was protected—and physically as well. And then he says, “Thus then, while they have allowed the social inferiority of women to continue”—in other words, she doesn’t have a lot of authority in the public space, she can’t hold public office—“they have done all they could to raise her morally and intellectually to the level of man; and in this respect, they appear to me to have excellently understood the true principle of democratic improvement.” And then he goes on to finish, “I have nowhere…”—and this is so important—and, in fact, before I finish that out, I want to tell you a couple things about this other book by Leonard Sax. One of the things that’s really fascinating that he goes into is bullying in this other book, and he’s talking about the difference between boys and girls and the difference in how they bully. And then he talks about how he has worked with over 400 schools. Let me see—I think he says he has worked with over 400 schools on this area of bullying and this issue, and how to handle it. And he says, “Sexual harassment is a form of bullying, but the motivation is different. The most common form of sexual harassment is a boy harassing a girl who has rejected his advances. To my observation, at more than 400 schools, the schools that are most effective in preventing sexual harassment are those that teach girls and boys to be ladies and gentlemen. A gentleman does not harass a lady, and a lady will not tolerate harassment.” So they build up character. They inculcate the children with virtue and confidence, and that solves the problem more than posters or awareness or trainings or shamings or punishments. It’s by elevating those boys and girls, by lifting them to a higher plane and helping them understand that they can be more noble, they can be better, they can be more self-disciplined, they can rein in their passions. And so that leveling up of their character stops the problem. He goes on to say, “Gender is more fragile than we knew, though perhaps we should have known better. Most cultures have taken great care in teaching gender norms. We no longer do. On the contrary”—and contrast this with what I just said was going on in America almost 200 years ago—“on the contrary, our learned professors now actively deconstruct and tear down every gender guidepost in the name of individual liberty,” which is what I’ve said throughout this podcast: that we think that it’s unbridled freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want, with no self-discipline. And that is not true. When you lose self-discipline, you lose freedom. Period. Personal liberty: you lose discipline, you become an addict. You’re not free when you’re an addict. So then he goes on, “When you tear down every gender guidepost in the name of individual liberty with no awareness of the costs, we need to be careful about the norms we teach. Of course, we don’t want to perpetuate stereotypes like the dumb jock or the dumb blonde. We need to create new ideals of manhood and womanhood that make sense in the 21st century.” We still need women that are women. We need to explore what femininity means, why women want to be protected and cared for, why they still want to have families and children, what it is in our makeup—whether you defer to a God-creation story or an evolution story, it still comes down to the same hard wiring—and we need to be honest about why, like Chesterton’s fence, those guardrails have been up in society for centuries and centuries, and why they’ve worked. He goes on, “Personhood won’t fly. Boys don’t want to be persons. Neither do girls. Boys want to be men. Girls want to be women. We have to teach them what that means.” And so you teach them to be ladies and gentlemen. They rein themselves in. They have greater discipline, which creates greater freedom, and then everyone in the school respects each other more. And so I’m not saying that the guardrails and the male–female roles in 1840 America were perfect, and I’m not saying there wasn’t room for improvement, but I’m saying there were clear lines and clear divisions. It was very clear what you did to be a man and very clear what you did to be a woman. And women were protected. They were safe. He talks about how a young woman could go on a long trip alone and be safe. You can’t even do that now. It was safer for young women in America in 1840 because of the laws, because of the self-discipline, because of the culture, because of the protection of virtue. And now women are—the MeToo movement, I mean, just look around—they’re getting violated all the time because they’ve been fed a bunch of lies about who they are, about everybody being the same, about unbridled passions and sexual behaviors. So I’m going to read you two last things really quickly as we finish up. This first one is at the end of the book by Louise Perry. I’m going to tell you a couple things that she says and then take us back to Tocqueville for a beautiful cap, and what he said was going on in 1840 and his opinion about the role of women and women and moms. Listen. It’s okay to teach your children to be gentlemen and ladies. In fact, it’s important. You should protect their virtue. You should encourage waiting, if not till marriage, waiting a long time. You should talk about the importance of living according to traditional sexual mores. I mention this some in my new book when I’m talking about the natural law and how quickly that broke down from the sexual revolution, and even the churches participated, and how damaging that is. We can’t just go with the flow. We have to stop and think, to look at Chesterton’s fence and say, why were these the guardrails, and were people better off as a general rule? Were people better off in 1840? That’s worth thinking about. So Louise Perry says, “A monogamous marriage system is successful in part because it pushes men away from cad mode, particularly when premarital sex is also prohibited”—again, particularly when premarital sex is also prohibited. If women don’t give it to men, they’ll have to marry them and make a formal commitment, where they will have to be in a covenant of marriage with a spouse and be responsible for the babies that they bring into the world, and they can be held accountable legally if they won’t do that. And women and our daughters are participating, unfortunately, in this premarital sex culture that is just doing so much damage. “Under these circumstances, if a man wants to have sex in a way that’s socially acceptable, he has to make himself marriageable, which means holding down a good job and setting up a household suitable for the raising of children.” And by the time you’ve gotten through all of Louise Perry’s arguments and studies and statistics, hopefully a lot of people agree with her by the end, because women are incredibly unhappy in this culture and their virtue is not being protected or honored at all. They’re being taken advantage of, and they’re very unhappy and unfulfilled, so many of them. And this is—I mean, what I just read you was 1840. That’s what happened. No premarital sex, guys. And you’ve got to make yourself good marriage material so that a valuable woman will want to be with you. “He has to tame himself. In other words, fatherhood then has a further taming effect, even at the biochemical level. When men are involved in the care of their young children, their testosterone levels drop alongside their aggression and sex drive. A society composed of tame men is a better society to live in for men, for women and for children.” Because discipline brings confidence, and it brings character, and it brings a better society. Then she goes on: “For some women, paid work outside of the home is a joy and a privilege. For many more, it is a responsibility, and often an onerous one.” And she knows, because she’s talked to a lot of women. “Even those women who enjoy their work are physically incapable of performing it during the early months of a baby’s life. I should know. I began this book at the beginning of my pregnancy and completed it when my son was six months old. Writing is probably one of the easiest jobs to combine with motherhood, but even so, there were weeks on end during which I didn’t write a word because I was too busy caring for my baby. “And while I could be practically supported by other people, including my husband, I was irreplaceable as mother—not only because I was the only person who could breastfeed, but also because children have a relationship with their mothers that starts from conception, and that relationship cannot be handed over without distress to both mother and baby.” And there’s a lot of good research around that bond as well. It’s irreplaceable. There are certain chemical things and mental, psychological things that happen to a child who’s bonded to their mother in that first year, connected to them physically and being with them almost all the time, that builds a sense of security and stability that you can’t otherwise really get without it. “I have just one piece of advice to offer in this chapter, and you’ve probably already guessed what it will be. So here it is: get married, and do your best to stay married, particularly if you have children and particularly if those children are still young. And if you do find yourself in the position of being a single mother, wait until your children are older before you bring a stepfather into their home.” And then she goes on, “I know that lifelong marriage, in a sense, is unnatural. It’s not the human norm,” blah, blah, blah. But then she says, “The marriage system has prevailed in the West up until recently. It was not perfect, nor was it easy for most people to conform to, since it demanded high levels of tolerance and self-control. Where the critics go wrong is in arguing that there is any better system. There isn’t.” And to cap us off, I’m going to read you this last quote that I absolutely love by Tocqueville that speaks to the very heart of who you are. I know this is who you are—what he says right here: “I have nowhere else seen women occupying a loftier position. And if I were asked, now that I am drawing to the close of this work in which I have spoken of so many important things done by the Americans, to what the singular prosperity and growing strength of that people ought mainly to be attributed, I should reply: to the superiority of their women.” Mothers and women who are listening to me, know how irreplaceable you are. Your virtue matters. Your character matters. Your commitment to motherhood and womanhood and femininity matter. Your commitment to proper roles, to teaching boys to be gentlemen and girls to be women, teaching your children to be abstinent sexually and to wait until marriage—all of these things make a better society for us. I believe they’re also spiritual in nature. I believe they nurture us in our relationship with ourselves and with God. I believe they make our world a better place in a myriad of ways we can’t even tangibly understand. But just from the social–economic perspective, it’s invaluable. It’s critical. It’s mission critical. And we have to push back on the sexual revolution and the feminist movement in meaningful ways and say, “No, we’re not doing that. We’re going to make a different world for our children.” We are on a mission to find our missions and to use them in the service of our families and communities. And we’re partnering. We’re linking arms with each other and with men and women of good faith who want to reinstitute and restore better systems, better virtues to our culture. I’m here. We’re doing this together. Let’s link arms and make our world a better one for our children and our grandchildren by being the stalwart women of character. Work on your education. Learn how to push back properly. Develop your skills of identifying and living according to principles. Learn the worldviews that will help you build bridges. Discover your gifts and talents so that you can use them to serve your fellowmen, and we, together, will make this world a better place to live. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I’ll see you next time.
EP 132: The Truth You’re Missing—and Why It Matters: An Overview of My New Book!
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ In this episode, Audrey Rindlisbacher introduces her new book How Truth Makes You Free, the culmination of 25 years of studying the meaning of Jesus’s teaching that “the truth shall make you free.” She explains how objective truth—known historically as the natural law—governs every aspect of human life and cannot be broken, only broken against. Audrey outlines how understanding first principles, governing principles, and their applications creates a reliable formula for solving even the most difficult personal, relational, financial, and health challenges. She shares examples from her own marriage, family, health, and business, illustrating how aligning with truth leads to permanent freedom, personal transformation, and lasting success. Part One of her book defines truth and freedom; Part Two provides actionable steps for applying principles to any area of life. Ultimately, the episode teaches that anyone can live a principle-centered life, discern truth, and experience real liberation. _________________ Transcript (AI Generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I am Audrey Rindlisbacher. I'm the author of The Mission Driven Life and Founder of the Mission Driven Mom, and I have been thinking for probably 25 years about what Jesus meant when He said, “The truth shall make you free.” Now, I don’t know if you’ve put very much thought into that, but I’ve asked myself thousands of questions around that concept. What is truth? How does truth work? How would we be made free? What does it mean to be free? And this has sent me on an incredible journey through thousands of books, trying to really get to the bottom of what this could mean for me. I think that religious people hear this phrase, and it means that Jesus can free them and liberate them in a myriad of ways, and I think that’s probably true. That’s probably a lot of what it means. But I have just spent the last year putting everything that I’ve learned about this principle—which I believe is a true principle, a first principle—and I’ve been putting it into my new book, How Truth Makes You Free, and I finally finished writing it on Friday. Yay. So excited. And I thought it might be a fun idea today on this podcast, this Thanksgiving week when we all have some downtime, if I spent a couple of minutes walking you through how the book is outlined and some of the things that you can expect to find in this book when it’s released in the spring—some of the epiphanies that I’ve come to about what truth is, what it means to be made free, and why it matters so much. Because this is not just the culmination of everything I’ve learned, although that's definitely one of the major things it is. It’s a guide. It walks you through. It’s a proven formula. I have now been teaching this for a decade or more. I have worked with thousands of students, even just in my Academy. We've had over 600 women come through there to this point. And so these are concepts that have proven to be freeing in my own personal life as I came to understand truth and true principles and why they matter so much. And then we became free in very concrete and meaningful ways. And then, of course, I found so many answers in so many of the great readings that I spent time in, and with great mentors that I spent time with, and then, of course, being able to share it out with all of our students. So let me just walk you through a little bit of what you’re going to find in this book when it comes out—some of the things that you can look forward to. I hope that I can shorten the learning curve for you. I hope that I can present—or have presented now; we’ll edit, we’ll figure it out, we’ll get a cover, all of those things will be coming—and I can talk to you over the next few months as we put those things in place. But what is this whole thing that is basically my life’s work, that I’ve spent the last 25 years working on? Why does it matter so much to me? Why does it matter so much to other people? And what can you expect to find in this book when it comes out? Because I hope that in the same way it has revolutionized my life and completely transformed me, and so many of the individuals I've worked with, I hope it can do the same for you. And that’s why I’ve condensed so much of what I’ve learned into this book. And let’s just get into it. I’m going to spend the next few minutes walking you through what you can expect to find—the concepts that I’ve covered and how this book can be of use to you. So the book is divided into two parts, and Part One is all about what truth is and how it makes us free. It walks you through the meanings of those things and how you can understand them properly. And then Part Two is a practical guide. It takes everything that you’ve learned in Part One and gives you very actionable steps that you can take to actually practice the things that I’ve taught you. Now, the first chapter gets into how we all have problems, and sometimes we have problems that we just legitimately do not have the first idea how to solve. And sometimes those problems have been around for a really long time, and maybe we've tried lots of things. Maybe we've been to therapy, maybe we've read books. Maybe it's even an addiction and you’ve been to rehab. You know, the book starts out talking about my and my husband’s challenge with his sexual addiction and the difficulties that that created in our lives—and how much pain and anguish, and after such a long time, having the struggle since the time he was a child and now bringing it into our marriage and all of those kinds of things. And so we know a little bit about problems that seem unsolvable. But then I mention many other problems that I was facing—other marital issues, trying to parent my children, big problems with extended family, really big career problems, business problems, financial issues. We went through a lot of those, and even in the last few years, more health issues than we'd ever had before. And in every case, we have been able to use this formula, to use this simple concept that there is truth and it can make us free. Jesus taught us that, and He isn't the only one to say it, but He is the one who made it the most famous—that there is truth, and it can make us free. And so the first chapter of the book is just to introduce you to this and help you understand that I get it. I’ve been there. I've worked with many people. They have been there. And the formula I'm going to lay out for you in the coming chapters does work, and there’s lots and lots of proof around the fact that it really does work. Then the second chapter dives into this concept of truth. What in the world is truth? What do we mean by that? There are a lot of ways that you could potentially define truth. There's one particular way that I am taking you on this journey around truth, and it is objective truth—things that are always true, whether we like it or not. Things that, as Cecil B. DeMille said, are laws—immutable laws of this world, at least—that we cannot break, but that we can only break ourselves against. And I give you some analogies to help you have some visual images, some mental images that will help navigate your thinking process around truth. And I hope these analogies will provide some anchors for you. They will help you have some comparisons that you can make, because the things that I need to share with you when I'm helping you understand what truth is—they’re abstract. You know, they're kind of high-level. And I understand that they can become overwhelming or difficult. So I want to make this as simple as possible. So I've given you these images, these analogies, so that you can walk through what I'm telling you about objective truth. And the way that it’s been talked about all through Western history is the natural law. I take you back to the Greeks, and I take you back to where I found out about the concept of natural law and why that matters so much and how it revolutionized my life and made all the difference for me as I came to understand it. How it’s been talked about traditionally as a framework of natural law and first principles, and how the natural law is also something that is known to all humankind. It is something that many people today will say isn’t real. They'll try to talk you out of it. They'll tell you that the natural law framework isn't legitimate, it's not objectively true. That's just not the case. I present a lot of research that I did in finding the resources that really do champion the natural law and demonstrate and prove definitively that it is a worldwide concept—that it is known all over the world, that it is honored all over the world, and has been all back through history. Our belief systems about truth as human beings have been consistently pretty similar, and like C. S. Lewis says, far more similar than they’ve been different. So I give you all of that rich evidence and context to help you really get your mind around this thing called natural law. And I think even for women who have been in the Academy, there will be some new ideas, some nuances, some concepts around it that maybe you haven't put together or that haven’t been presented to you in quite this way. And so I’m really, really excited for it to get us all on the same page using the same language and understanding these concepts the same way. Now, there are many books that talk about natural law that I have studied and could bring out, but many of them are pretty scholarly. And probably one of the most common ways that it has slipped into something that might be more like a modern read—something more understandable—would usually be in the government or economic space, because we’re talking about law and what law is and all those kinds of things. So I help you understand objective truth in the format of natural law, and that natural law is immutable. It has always been around. We can only break ourselves against it; we cannot break it. And so we must align ourselves with it. In the next chapter, I walk you through that framework as it’s been delineated by the American Founders in the Declaration of Independence. I walk you through the concepts of first principles and principles and applications. I give you other examples, give you more evidence, and help you really get your mind around why it matters so much—how they build on each other, what they mean. And of course, this goes all the way back. Aristotle was talking about first principles. This is nothing new. One of the things that I think is really—I don’t know—interesting maybe about me or about what we do with the Mission Driven Mom is just that I really don’t say much that’s actually original and authentic just to me. Mostly, I go out and grab the best resources for you. Mostly, I read what the great people have said all the way through time, and I collate them, and I put them in an order and a format that’s helpful for you. I'm mostly always trying to give you shortcuts. I'm always trying to get you to the best content that will help you right now, but also level up your way of thinking and help you have new mental maps that will expedite your path forward. Because what happens when you really understand these three chapters that I’ve talked about so far—when you really get there, when you really arrive at an understanding that there’s objective truth, that it’s in the form of natural law, that there are first principles and applications, that they are immutable, that we can only break ourselves against them, we cannot break them, and that what we must do is align our lives with them—you have really the most beautiful formula for success. One of my favorite—I don’t know if you want to call it definitions or quotes—is by Stephen Covey, and he said that “the internalization of correct principles is the foundation upon which all lasting success and happiness are based.” That is absolutely 100% true. I have found that to be true for myself and for all these other people that I have worked with. But I also find it over and over again in some of the oddest places, even among men and women who wouldn’t necessarily agree with each other on many other things. It’s undeniable that there are things we intuitively know, that there are principles that govern the key areas of our lives, and that when we go out and seek those out and live them, everything changes for us. And that is the foundation upon which success and happiness are based. So then I start talking about what it means to be made free. That does not mean that problems always disappear. It means that we change in our relationship to that problem. We understand the governing principles over that area of life, and so then that is no longer an obstacle to our personal growth. Things in our lives that are blocking us, that are damning us, that are standing in our way no longer stand in our way. We are given the tools to break free of whatever is chaining us, whatever is keeping us stuck, and we know how to move forward in our lives. In other words, if you have a handicap, to be made free doesn’t necessarily mean that the handicap goes away. It doesn’t necessarily mean that your husband is suddenly different or that your child stops rebelling. It means that you know how to break through that thing that’s got you stuck, and you know how to move forward in your life in productive and helpful and healthy ways because you are armed with truth, and that truth makes you free. And so in this chapter, I give you some really incredible examples of the four different areas in which you can be made free—the four different types of problems that we have. I did a podcast a few months ago on those four types of problems drawn from the book. And I give you examples of those and demonstrate what it means to be made free and what you can expect now that you understand that there are these truths. When you embrace these truths, what's going to happen to you? What’s the outcome that you can always be guaranteed? Then I talk about the mechanism of how we recognize truth. What does it mean to be able to identify truth? That is a lot about the conscience—the divine and the social consciences—how they’re different, why that matters so much, and how the mechanism of the divine conscience is the vehicle through which we can identify truth. And as we do that, and as we hone that, we become better and better and better at identifying those truths that will make us free. And that whole framework gives you the foundation for knowing what you need to do to move forward in your life. You need to latch onto first principles, and they will tell you why you are doing what you are doing. They will give you the purpose, the meanings, the motivation, and they are intuitively known. They will intuitively reach the hearts of others. And then you need to seek out the principles that govern that area of life you want to work on. You want to work on your finances. You want to work on your health. It doesn’t matter what you want to work on—there are principles you can go out and find. And then you apply them. And there are a myriad of ways that you can do that. And so Part Two is just that. I walk you through the steps. How can you identify first principles? How can you then take those first principles and go out and seek for principles? What are the many different ways that you can begin applying those principles to infuse your life with new tools and truths that will liberate you permanently from the problems that you face? So I’m about to send this off. I'm going to do one last read, and I'm going to send it off to my editor, and we are going to keep sculpting it and shaping it and making it exactly what it needs to be for you and for anyone else you want to pass it along to. We plan to create a book cover, obviously, get it all edited, and do a big book launch in the spring, which I'm super duper excited about. But I can tell you this is a proven formula. I can tell you now, on this side of things, that the truth has made us free. My husband has permanent sobriety. Our finances are stable and flourishing. My health has—I wasn’t walking last spring, and now I’m walking. And that’s a whole other story of finding the principles that would make me free in regards to my hip and my back. And I hiked three miles about a month ago. And so, whether it’s business—this is MDM 2.0, and we're excited for some new rebranding that’s coming in, better marketing and better systems—and we’ve up-leveled the Academy like we talked about last week, and learned the business principles that will make this succeed at an even higher level. Our marriage is unified and close and vulnerable and beautiful, and our relationships with our children and our friends and our extended family are doing well. So my life is far from perfect. I just have to say that. I know you might get the wrong message. I still have really unhealthy mental patterns and lots of problems that I face and issues and worries and all of the things. But what I can tell you is that I’m only doing as well as I am doing—I only know my way forward—because I know that principles will make me free. It's only because I understand that this framework is the true framework of reality, and that I have the mental maps and the skill sets for discernment because of the education that I've given myself. I mean, those principles of education—that's what we follow in our Academy. That’s what we give to our moms: the tool sets to be able to live this way, to have a principle-centered life. And it is just far more peaceful. You don’t feel like you have to figure everything out all the time. You don’t feel like you have to be the expert or you have to just listen to the experts blindly. You are the authority in your own life because you understand what principles are and how to find and delineate them. You can recognize truth regardless of the source, regardless of the delivery. And this book is going to be a big piece of the puzzle for helping so many of us be able to live this way. Now, I do think you need to go on to give yourself the education that will really transform the way that you think permanently, but that’s Part Two. And you can do that in our Academy, or you can do that in a myriad of other ways. I highly recommend that you get serious about giving yourself that education that will help you discern and live in truth. But this book will be a big part of that formula, and I hope that the work that I’ve put in—the countless hours over the last 25 years of finding the resources and finding the proof and testing it on myself and helping others to walk this path and then putting it all together in this book—will be a great blessing to you and to many others who are lifted by this one beautiful truth: that the truth can make us free, as long as we identify it and infuse it into our lives. Everything changes. We can be genuinely transformed. We can find permanent solutions for the significant problems we face, and we can have a different life than we’ve ever had. So thank you so much for joining me today. If this podcast is blessing your life, please pass it along and give us a review. That really helps us to grow. And I hope all those listening are having a wonderful and beautiful Thanksgiving Day, and I will see you next time.
EP 131: Why we came back: How the NEW MDM Academy is even better at transforming moms!
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ Today’s podcast discussion --Inside the New Mission Driven Mom Academy! This episode provides an in-depth update on the transformation and relaunch of the Mission Driven Mom Academy (MDM 2.0) and highlights the purpose, structure, and impact of the Academy’s three-level curriculum based on The Seven Laws of Life Mission. Audrey is joined by longtime collaborators Lindsay Wright and Tracie Hyde, who share why they returned to serve as mentors and leaders after several years away. Their stories emphasize the Academy’s ability to transform mothers' self-understanding, leadership capacity, spiritual grounding, and family culture. They outline how the Academy helps mothers build foundational self-knowledge, articulate principles clearly, and understand worldviews and servant leadership in order to influence their families and communities for good. They describe new features—including a community platform, workshops, accountability partnerships, mentoring support, and a member directory—designed to provide deeper connection, structure, and real-world application for women seeking to grow. Throughout the episode, the women share specific transformations they experienced personally: overcoming victim-thinking, discovering strengths, developing leadership, improving family relationships, and guiding their children more intentionally. They also share updates on the upcoming Mothers of Creation conference and new opportunities for both new and returning Academy members. The episode ultimately conveys a clear and passionate call for mothers to step into mission-driven living, deepen their education, and join a supportive, principle-centered community devoted to renewing culture through virtue and truth. __________________ Transcript (AI generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Audrey Rindlisbacher, the founder of The Mission Driven Mom and author of The Mission Driven Life, and thank you for joining us. If this podcast is bringing enlightenment and aid to your life, please share it out and give us a review—that helps us grow our reach. Today I am really lucky to have Lindsay Wright and Tracy Hyde to talk to us for a few minutes about all things Academy. Those of you that have been with us for a little while are going to be familiar with their faces. They’re incredible women who’ve been here from the very beginning. We were getting up at five in the morning and talking about the books that should be in the Academy. It was hard, but it was great fun—really rewarding. And we launched together and did a bunch of events together, and they mentored for a long time in the Academy. They’re incredible mentors and guides. We are all products of everything that we teach. It's blessed our lives. It's changed the way we think. We want to keep giving it back out and guiding you through those seven laws of life mission. And so the Academy is kind of new and improved. We spent a little bit of time moving it to a new platform. There was a period of time when mentoring wasn't available, but we know there are a lot of you out there who own lifetime access to the Academy, as well as, of course, many women we want to reach—women we'd love to bring into this beautiful environment to become friends with and to walk together on our mission journeys. So we just want to update you on some of the things that are new and improved. And I want to start by talking to Lindsay and Tracy. There was a time when they weren't involved with MDM, and they've come back this year on our invitation. And so I want to just ask them first: what prompted them to come back? Either of you can start—why you’re here and what you're hoping to give to moms. So for me, the reason I came back is because I do believe in the message and the vision of The Mission Driven Mom. The vision has become so clear of what it is that we're trying to do—that we want to create a movement of mothers and of women that can influence the culture. Yes, there's so many things—there are a lot of good things happening in the world today, but there's also a lot of things that I would like to change, and I would like to have some friends on the journey with me. And I just know—we’ve seen it so many times—that if you change a mom, you change a family, you change a community. We just have so much influence as mothers. So I just believe in the message. I believe in the vision. I know that it's changed my life for the better. I am not the same person that I was. And in fact, I'm not the same person that I was even a few years ago. I have continued with my education, continued to try to live the laws of life mission, and it just feels good to be back and to be able to offer the skills and talents that I've developed over the last few years—to offer that to The Mission Driven Mom community. Oh, that's awesome. Before we move on to Tracy, Lindsay, I have a follow-up question, just based on what you said. So tell us a little bit about what you did for those couple of years when you weren't as involved with MDM. How did you continue to grow? What projects were you working on? So the biggest project was teaching an online humanities class, and it's one of my favorite things to do. It's a four-year cycle. We go through ancient Greece, we read The Iliad and The Odyssey. We move through ancient Rome. This year we’re studying the Renaissance up through the American and French Revolutions—principles of government and natural rights, some of the things that we learned about in the Academy. And then next year we'll do modernism and postmodernism. What's been fantastic is that I'm still in the classics. So my education has increased just by reading these great books and being able to discuss these great ideas. I love mentoring, so it’s a class for high school students, and I have loved mentoring them. I can see the change that it makes in their lives. This used to be the standard education that everybody would get, right? Reading the classics, discussing and asking questions—and it's not anymore. We've been robbed of a great education. So I watch these high school students, and they struggle with the readings, but they grow so much. These ideas, just like with the moms, are lighting a fire in their minds and their hearts. It's so fun to see the transformation even over a semester or over a year. Some of them have been with me two years now, and they've taken the class longer than that. They’re just outstanding students who are going to bring that into the things they do in the world. So it's very rewarding in that way. Oh, that's awesome. And you've done some stuff with moms too. What’s that other great books… something… what’s it called? We did the Gateway Project. Gateway—that’s what it’s called. That’s right. So I took moms through… so behind me, I’ve got the Great Books of the Western World set by Mortimer Adler, and he wrote a ten-volume set called The Gateway to the Great Books, which was meant for high school students to prepare them to read the great books. The readings are a little bit shorter and a little bit easier—although they’re plenty hard enough for all of us. But it was a good mix for moms. We would read a selection and discuss it for an hour a week, and it was the same thing. It’s just so fun to see what this kind of education does for anyone. And I know some of those, at least, were Academy students—Academy graduates who are also continuing their lifelong learning and continuing to dig deeper into principles. So great. So much to learn. It’s great. All right. Tracy, how about you? I want to echo a lot of what Lindsay said. I think she really summed up why I came back as well. I just believe in this cause and want to uplift women and give them the opportunity to have this education. And I knew that I could fill a place that Audrey needed filled because I come with a lot of experience—years of building the Academy with Audrey and Lindsay and Julie Greenman, which was a wonderful experience for me, and then several years of mentoring Level One and Level Two and working on Level Three with Audrey. And we hope to have that out. Yeah, that'll be out next year. But I just felt like—it wasn't like it was a duty—but it felt like that was God’s call to me: to come back and insert myself into the things I had been doing already with MDM, knowing that I could make a difference with that. And what I’ve been doing in the meantime: actually, I’ve been spending a lot of time with Lindsay doing the humanities course. Julie Greenman started that class and then handed it off to Lindsay last year. So I’m a four-year graduate. This year I'm really sad that I'm not taking humanities because I finished. And we were doing the Gateway Project together and continuing our education together. I just love learning with women, and I wanted to keep doing that. So I'm really excited to be back and excited to get this off the ground and to more women. That's awesome. Well, anyone listening can appreciate that these women come with so much experience. They’ve been mentoring for a very long time. They know this material inside and out. And as Tracy said, she was running the Academy at one point previously and is our Academy Director again. Lindsay is a mentor with us but also helped with some of the restructuring of the Academy. Again, we've done this so much and so many times—we just keep getting to make it better, which is really a joy. Tracy has been taking all of the… we used to have a workbook that we would mail to you, and now the program is in a course platform that actually comes on an app, and it’s attached to a community, and it’s the cleanest, simplest way to consume the Academy we've ever had. But then you still get a journal that we mail to you so that you can have that hard copy to take with you, and you can use that “All About Me” section as you go through the self-discovery—I'm getting ahead of myself there, but… So that’s what Tracy’s doing for us—directing the Academy—and Lindsay’s mentoring for us, helping build and run workshops. And we’re really excited for the two projects coming up in the new year: we’ll finish building out a mentor training program, which first will be available internally for our students to take so they can turn around and mentor in the Academy. Then we hope at some point to offer it to other people who would like to learn how to mentor better. We all have a lot of experience with that, so we’re excited to offer that for women and mothers who would like to improve their skill set there. And as Tracy mentioned, we'll be offering Level Three next year. We did two pilots of it, but it's never officially been done, and so it’ll be done officially for all of you who have been waiting for that. All right, so let’s just talk logistically for a minute about some of the changes and improvements to—well, let's start with the basics. For those who aren’t really familiar with how the Academy works, let’s just give a basic overview. If somebody wants to walk us through the basic structure… Tracy, would you mind doing that for us? Sure. Do you mean in Kajabi or the whole… just how it works? Just like, if you're not familiar with the Academy—how does it work? Okay. So the Academy is built off of Audrey's book, The Seven Laws of Life Mission. And in her book she outlines the first law, which is love God and love self, and then love truth, and then love humanity. And the Academy is built to help moms get their education in the first four laws of life mission. So Level One is love God and yourself. Level Two is love truth, and Level Three is love humanity. And so how it works is: you sign up and you start with Level One, and you go through the course material in Kajabi. We have a community that's attached to that where we hope to help you find an accountability partner or accountability group that you can discuss with regularly—keeping each other moving through the Academy so that you do get this rich education and finish. We also have mentored workshops that are built into your journey through the Academy, through Level One, where you will prepare certain sections and then come to the workshop prepared. We want it to be a time where you discuss and get to articulate the things that you're learning, and we as mentors want to do as little talking as possible because we want this to be a time for you to really bring to the table what you've been learning and have that discussion opportunity. And so we hope it to be an experience like that—something you come prepared to. But then we also have bonus workshops as well to help with sticking points, like study skills and writing a mission statement. And then we also have bonus experiences where Audrey will come, and it will be a live meetup with Audrey where she'll introduce a topic of her choice and then take a question-and-answer session. And then as well, we are available as mentors to answer any of your questions in the community feed. For Level Two it's just the same process, but it's with love truth. And so you'll learn to articulate principles—specifically thinking in an orderly way, thinking in first principles and applications—which will really give you flight in your ability to discern and to lead yourself, your community, and your family. And then in Level Three, which we still need to build out, that's love humanity. So it's worldviews and also servant leadership. You'll learn details about the major religions and also other secular worldviews. And you'll also learn public speaking and how to help people but not hinder them—how to be a multiplier, not a diminisher—and just learn leadership principles. And so yeah, we're excited to offer that to you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Tracy. Going back to the big picture, I guess with all of that in mind, a couple things I'll add. We always had—for those of you who are thinking about getting involved or have been involved—the curriculum, the concepts and principles that we learn, and the books that we run through have not really changed much. It still is all that same great stuff. Level One is a really heavy focus on loving God and loving yourself, and what does that mean, and why does that matter? And how are those core relationships the foundation for all your other relationships? And how getting those right is so vital to enabling you to correct and lift the other relationships in your life. And loving yourself encompasses proper self-care and proper self-leadership and proper self-discovery. When you combine those three things—which I talk about in the book under the second law—you really start to have… in fact, there are so many testimonials. You can go to the website and see a lot of them. You can go to the YouTube channel and see a lot of testimonials. But Lindsay and Tracy, just tell those who might be listening and curious: what are some of the outcomes that you've seen with Level One in particular, and then with just the Academy in general, for yourselves and for other women you've worked with? So I really… I love all of it, but the self-discovery sections—learning about what my strengths are, focusing on strengths instead of focusing on weaknesses—has changed a lot of things. But realizing what are the things that I'm good at, and then developing those… I think it was through the self-discovery sections that I came to realize that I've always wanted to be a teacher. And so now I just take every opportunity I can to teach and to become better at teaching. It's something that gives my life so much meaning and purpose, and it's so satisfying. And that was an insight that I had going through the self-discovery sections, and then to see how all of my other strengths and intelligences work in tandem with that. So that was really powerful. And then for me, the other concept was just that we have needs and we're responsible to meet them. Just knowing that I have physical and spiritual and mental and emotional needs has centered me so that I can do the things that I want to do. I have the energy that I need to do the things that I want to do. So that was powerful too. Yeah. Yeah. Any thoughts around some of the results you've seen for yourself or others, Tracy? Yeah, for me, I think the victim mode that I didn't realize I was in was huge for me to learn about in Level One. And when I read about the victim cycle, or the victim triangle, I thought, “I'm not in that.” Like almost 90% of my thoughts… wow, that's like a personal tendency, I think. Yeah. And so that was really helpful for me, and I still have to continue to help myself—remind myself—to be in creator mode. Yeah. But I think the way the Academy is structured was so easy to bring my husband along. He didn't read all the readings, but we talked about a lot of the things. And then just my children over the dinner table… One of my children did go through the whole Academy book by book and did everything. But with the rest, I tried to do it with my boys, and we were on our own—we didn't have a group. And so I just talked about it at dinner. And I talked about it in our meetings that we would have together—just the principles I was learning. And I had a son who went abroad to serve a mission for our church, and he wanted a refresher on a lot of those things that we learned, because he knew to survive that he needed some of those principles. And so it's been incredible to see my children go into their adult life well-equipped to know how to handle themselves and how to handle relationships. And also, like Lindsay was saying with self-discovery, I can help them find… it's been a wonderful skill to be able to help them find their sweet spots and to guide them—and to let go of some of my preconceived ideas of what I thought they should be doing, but to really look at what they love to do and to go off of that as a springboard. So it's just helped me be a greater, more effective mom. And, as Lindsay was saying for her, it stabilized her, and it did that for me as well. But it also stabilized my family, I feel like, and I think it will reverberate through the generations, and I'm really excited about that. And so I'm just excited to infuse that into other families, and it will be a whole movement. And I have to say, with Lindsay finding her sweet spot with teaching, she really is an excellent mentor. And I think the whole program’s worth it if you can just have Lindsay as your mentor—she really is amazing. You've really found a gem. And I'm really excited to have her mentoring with us. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Tracy, but it's… you know, it would be so fantastic if this was the kind of education everybody was getting. And we're just not. And so we needed this opportunity to learn these truths. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I first found classical liberal education, the transformation that I had for me, and then being turned on to principles… and it was so funny because, you know, I'm there and I'm reading the classics, and I'm in Locke, and he's talking about the natural law. I'm like, “What is this? This is so amazing.” And I was learning all these things. But as time went by, I remember going to… I spoke at a conference that was based on all of this—and it was classical liberal arts and all of that—and attending some of the speeches and talking to some of the presenters and things… Even in that environment, I felt—even back then—concerned that there wasn't enough emphasis on principles, and that we were still thinking in terms of applications. And so just feeling like this drive—I don't know why I care so much about it, but just this… we've got to figure out how to make this accessible to more people. You know, I would go and read Susan Wise Bauer, Mortimer Adler—and they're brilliant and they're geniuses—but they would talk about this type of education and they would say, “Okay, so what you need to do is read the book three times, and the first time through do this, and the second time through…” And every time I engaged with one of these brilliant people who understood the value of this type of education and wanted to promote it, I just was like, “Moms aren’t going to do that.” They're just not going to do that. They need it vetted down. They need the best stuff as quickly as they can get it. They need a shortcut. They need to be able to get to the best information and have the principles laid out for them, and they need community. Women need each other. They need safe, vulnerable spaces where they can talk honestly about what their roadblocks are. They need support and accountability. They need to lift each other. And so that's what we've been working on creating. Some cool inclusions now that didn't used to exist—we used to get on Zoom and that kind of thing. In the community, it's everything for us. So you go into the community and it's as robust as Facebook or any other platform. You can post videos or articles or images. You can share all the types of things that you would want to share on a social platform. And it's really robust and interactive. You can DM anybody in the community that you want to—and that's one of the things Tracy was talking about. You have access to the mentors anytime you need them for that kind of thing. And then there are these workshops that happen regularly. You show up—it's right there inside the community—and you just follow the link, and it's just like a Zoom experience. And we go into breakout rooms, and we can share our screens, and we can get in and use all the different technologies that are available. And every time we post one, it automatically sends you an email. So you always know what's going on. And then we've added an extra layer that actually isn't in the platform itself. We have layered this onto it, and it's our directory. So you can actually go into the members area and see where everybody lives on a big map, and you have access to the emails and the names of women in the Academy. Just to keep their locations safe, it only has their city, so you can't track them down—it's not dangerous—but you have to be in the Academy to get access to that directory. And you can email somebody and get to know them, you can get on Zoom with them, and, like Tracy was saying, we work hard to help you find someone who can be your accountability person, who can be your friend, who can walk this journey with you in an even more intimate way. But as mentors, we're there as often as you need us, as much as you need us. And you get some goodies when you sign up—a book bag, bookmarks, we send you The Mission Driven Life book, a journal, some fun things like that. But it's kind of… we keep calling it MDM 2.0 because it's just that much better, having taken everything that we learned before. And we watched hundreds and hundreds of women's lives be transformed through this content. You know, marriages were healed, and women felt like they were settled into this deep level of self-acceptance, and that they had control over themselves, and their families, like Tracy was saying, were lifted. And this self-discovery and understanding the culture and the ability to discern… we have a group chat of some women who are graduates, and just this week they were texting each other, “Well, what's the actionable principle for this, that, and the other?” And I was just blown away at their ability to take what we've provided and to build on it and use it out in the real world, and use it to improve themselves and their family ongoing for the rest of their lives and beyond. So that's really fun. And, of course—and I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before—we have graduates that are doing lots and lots of amazing things out in the world, trying to make the world a better place. And we want to better support them. We want to be there for them. And there are lots of other exciting things that we could mention that are coming. I have not announced this or sent any emails out about it, but the celebration is back next year. It's Mothers of Creation. And so if you want to join us, you can go to the website, to the conference page, and sign up to be there with us live, in person, in Provo, Utah. We will probably add another location as time moves on, but for now, that's where we are next fall. But for those of you who have lifetime access—if there's an even funner offer, I guess—we would invite any and everyone who wants to hop on this train with us, who wants to be on a mission-driven journey with us. We welcome you. We would love to have you in the Academy. For those of you who already have lifetime access to Levels One or Two, you may not know that you can hop back into the community and take advantage of the workshops that we're building out. They're quite robust, they're well thought through, and Tracy—bless her—has actually gone through the content and built out a structure where you know exactly what you need to do to prepare for those workshops. And we can make you the promise that in 30 minutes a day you will be ready for those workshops, and you will get through the material in nine months. And if you didn't finish the level that you were in, or you had a good experience and you want to go through it again, or you want to move on, or whatever the case might be, you can have access to that community—the workshops, the mentoring, the directory, all of that good stuff—for just a small monthly fee. So just go to The Mission Driven Mom login. Go to the end of the course that you have access to—at the end of Level One, for example, it'll say “Continue Your Journey.” And that's right—you can sign up for Level Two right there, but you can also sign up (cancel anytime). You can sign up to join us in the Academy on a monthly basis. Just pay monthly until you feel done, and then move on to the next level of the Academy. So that's also something that we want to offer those who miss being part of the Academy and want to rejoin us. Again, we'd love to see your beautiful faces back in the Academy with us. Is there anything else that—Lindsay or Tracy—you'd like to add? What are you excited for in this coming year? I guess we can end on that question. I'm excited for the workshops. Oh—go ahead, sorry, Tracy. Oh, it's okay, I'll be short. Something that I'd like to add is: this really is the education I wanted when I talked with Audrey years ago. We were at a retreat and happened to meet each other. She asked if I wanted a degree. I said, “Not really. I just want to be able to think better and manage myself better.” And I couldn't be more pleased with what Audrey has created and what Lindsay and I and Julie Greenman have helped Audrey create. It really is just the shot in the arm—what moms need—and in the minimal amount of time, because time is so precious for moms. But it really is the foundational education that will just propel you into years of enriched living. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Tracy. So I totally agree with that. I'm just excited for these opportunities in the workshops and in the events to meet each other, to form those relationships. The workshops are not intended to take the place of your accountability partners or your accountability groups—they're meant to add an additional resource, an additional refinement to the things that you're learning so that we can truly become mission-driven moms and influence the culture for good. I think the workshops are a big part of being able to do that. Yeah. A hundred percent. If you have not read the book The Mission-Driven Life, you can also go to themissiondrivenmom.com and get three chapters for free, and you can grab a hard copy of the book if you're so inclined. We would love for you to learn more about who we are and what we're doing. We really do—we're going to do everything we possibly can to educate as many women as we can, thousands of women, and help empower them to lift our culture, because it needs to be renewed with virtue. It needs to be reinfused with the principles that founded this nation. And we need mothers who can discern, who can live out and teach truth, and lift our culture with us, hand in hand. If you're not on our email list, go get on it. There’s a lot of—I didn't want to tell you all the exciting things we have scheduled for this coming year, but lots of super exciting things scheduled. So we'll stay in touch. We'll let you know about all those things. But in the meantime, this is a perfect time to come back as we re-infuse the Academy with these beautiful workshops that are being built out. We're ready for you. We would love to see you again in the Academy. Whether you're new or coming back, we are excited to spend time with you again and to lift each other and move forward in lifting the culture. So thanks for joining us today, and we will see you next time.
EP 130: What We Lost When We Abandoned REAL Education
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ Why did school feel boring or pointless? …because you were robbed of a true liberal arts education—learning that forms free people. We decode what “liberal” really means, chart how American education drifted into vocational training, and show how to revive the Great Books, the Socratic method, commonplacing, oral exams, and meaningful leisure. Drawing on Hayek and Mortimer Adler, it shows how this tradition was lost—and how reclaiming it can transform your thinking, purpose, and lifelong learning. __________________ Transcript (AI generated) There is a reason why you were probably dissatisfied with your education—why you felt frustrated and unfulfilled, why you couldn’t find the meaning or purpose behind much of it. Why you felt bored, why you felt unfulfilled, why it felt brainless or pointless or full of frustration. If you’re like me, when you were in school, you probably had some thoughts like: “This is really dumb,” or “This is really boring,” or “Why do we have to be at school so long?” or “What is it that we’re even doing? What’s the point of all this?” I don’t know if you ever thought deeply about it, but I remember a consistent sense of dissatisfaction. It grew as I got older—especially in high school—until I finally thought, “Okay, well, high school education isn’t all that great.” I mean, there were some classes, like my psychology class—it was so easy. Everything was straight out of the book. I think it was the gym teacher who taught us, and as long as I memorized some answers… that was back in the Scantron days, where we’d just fill in the bubbles and they’d run it through the machine. I would get out early basically every time we had a test in psychology. Or there were times when you’d pour your heart into a paper or project and still get a bad grade because you didn’t check certain specific boxes with your formatting, or your teacher didn’t like how you phrased something, or whatever. It was just not a great experience on a lot of levels. I was always waiting for it to get better and better. And I’m here to tell you: there’s a reason why you were probably dissatisfied with your education—why you felt frustrated and unfulfilled, why you couldn’t find meaning and purpose behind a lot of it, why you felt bored or unchallenged, why it all felt brainless or pointless. It’s because you were not given a liberal arts education. That’s the type of education that existed in Western civilization for over a thousand years. This was how education was done for a very long time. When I tell people that I have a liberal arts education, they usually have no idea what I’m talking about, because those terms have been hijacked. I’m going to explain that to you in a minute—what this really means, how education used to be, and how you were genuinely robbed by people who decided a hundred, hundred-twenty years ago that you weren’t smart enough to get the kind of education people had been receiving for hundreds of years. They said all that information was just “unimportant dead white men” that you couldn’t learn anything from. That is so arrogant—because this is the very foundation we stand on. Anyway—obviously, I have feelings about this—but when I tell people I have a liberal arts education, they usually think it means something like being an artist, or doing something in the arts. They don’t even understand what these terms mean. So, I’m going to break this down and give you a brief introduction to what this is—and what has been taken from you. Because I’m passionate about learning, lifelong learning, and becoming better—about living the 7 Laws of Life Mission that I talk about in my book—we’re going to keep talking about this. I’ll keep putting out information about the history of American and Western education so you can understand how we got from there to here. But for today, I just want to give you the basics of what this means. The word liberal—as in liberal arts—comes from the Latin root liber, which means “free.” It’s also the root of liberty and libro (which means “book” in Spanish). So, there’s this connection between being educated and being free. It was the educated classes who were free, and you received an education to be a free person. That’s what it was about. Now, this might surprise you. In today’s culture, the word liberal is often associated with people on the political left—Democrats, progressives, whatever—and so in conservative circles, “liberal” has taken on a negative connotation. Liberals are seen as more open or generous or kind, and so on. But liberalism is actually a Western cultural philosophy. Let me read a little about it: “It’s a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual—liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, equality before the law, private property, market economics, individual rights, civil rights, and human rights.” We actually have liberalism to thank for our freedom and our ideas about human rights. It sought to establish a constitutional order—meaning that those in power (the king, aristocracy, or any tyranny) were subject to the law, and that there was a natural law above all mankind. We derive those rights from God, not from government. And government must submit to its own laws. That’s a liberal idea. It prized individual freedoms such as freedom of speech, freedom of association, independent juries, public trials by jury, and the abolition of aristocratic privilege. The fundamental elements of modern Western society all have liberal roots. So what is this “liberal” that some people identify as—what does it really mean? It’s actually social liberalism. In Europe and North America, “social liberalism,” often just called “liberalism,” became a key component in expanding the welfare state. That’s why the word was hijacked. Now, F.A. Hayek—an incredible thinker who wrote The Road to Serfdom and won the Nobel Prize—wrote about this back in 1944. He said the word liberal was already being hijacked in America even then. In the preface of his book, he wrote: “Throughout this book, I use the term liberal in the original nineteenth-century sense in which it is still current in Britain. Its current usage in America often means nearly the opposite of this. It has been part of the camouflage of the leftist movements in that country—helped by the muddle-headedness of many who really do believe in liberty—that liberal has come to mean the advocacy of almost every kind of government control.” So this word was stolen—from a form of education that had, for centuries, enabled people to gather, organize, and learn from the great thinkers—mostly men, but some women—throughout Western history. That’s the foundation we stand on in the West, and especially in America. This is a liberal country, built on the principles of liberty. Hayek goes on: “I am still puzzled why those in the United States who truly believe in liberty should not only have allowed the left to appropriate this almost indispensable term, but even should have assisted by beginning to use it themselves as a term of opprobrium.” So he’s saying that people started using it negatively—even though it defines the very civilization and nation we aspire to be. Mortimer Adler said, “The chief difference between ourselves and our ancestors is that they, for the most part, talked sense about liberal education, whereas we, for the most part, do not.” That’s fascinating—that a word and an idea so foundational to our civilization could be so misunderstood today. If you read American Higher Education: A History by Christopher Lucas (which is really good), and look up “liberal learning” in the index, you’ll see row after row of citations. That’s how predominant liberal learning was in America—until recently. This is what you’ve been robbed of: liberal learning for the sake of learning itself—learning to be free—the education of a free people. That’s very different from vocational learning, which is learning for the sake of earning. Those are the two kinds of learning. What we’ve done is take a liberal foundation and replace it with vocational learning—through apprenticeships, trade schools, and job training. But originally, everyone received a liberal education so they could be free. After the American Revolution, as the founders built the nation, they said, “Now we need an education system to match our form of government.” They knew people needed to understand what creates freedom in order to stay free—to preserve a free nation and a free people. That’s why they valued a liberal education: it teaches people how to be free. Adler said, “For anyone to become an educated person, it is necessary for his or her learning to continue throughout the lifetime that follows graduation from college or university. The most crucial contribution these institutions can make is in the field of the arts—the liberal arts—which are the arts of learning, and the arts which discipline our creative powers.” He also said, “Education frees our minds by disciplining them.” Our education is supposed to discipline our minds—to help us find, hold to, and adhere to truth. Mortimer Adler (I’ll talk about him more in another video on The Great Books and how we lost liberal learning in America) was one of the key figures who tried to preserve liberal education in the United States. He often argued that the best education happens in adulthood—and he was right. Because it’s only as adults, with real-life experience, that our education takes on its deepest meaning. I could read Anna Karenina in college, but ten or fifteen years later—after I’d had a troubled marriage myself and been through much more life—Anna Karenina means a whole lot more to me. Right? So, we need the tools for lifelong learning, and that’s what liberal education was giving people. There was a very specific way this was done, so let me explain it quickly so you understand what the “liberal” part is—and what the “arts” part means. Liberal Arts are not Fine Arts, and they’re not Vocational Arts. They’re not arts for the sake of earning, and they’re not fine arts for the sake of beautifying. They’re the liberal arts—for the sake of being free, for disciplining the mind, for learning how to use our intellectual and rational powers to their fullest. The fine arts are totally “useless,” and that is their glory—because the fine arts are meant to move the heart and to move the culture toward beauty and goodness. The liberal arts, on the other hand, are useful. They consist of the Trivium and the Quadrivium, which in their modern forms include reading, writing, speaking, listening, and all the mathematical and scientific disciplines. So, this hangover that we have in our schools—where those are still our focus—is a remnant of the liberal arts. We’re still trying to do the liberal arts, but we’re doing it without the same medium or methods used in the past. We’re doing it in a textbook model—which doesn’t work—and we’re doing it without the full toolset for liberal learning. We still teach that people need to write, read, and calculate, but we’re not bringing it home. The liberal arts are meant to help us live a robust life of truth—to be the search for truth itself. That’s why Harvard’s motto was Veritas—“truth.” These colleges and universities were founded upon the liberal arts: the pursuit of truth, living the good life, and seeking real happiness in harmony with God’s natural laws. The fine arts were meant for those who would go on to create works that inspire humanity. The liberal arts were meant for everyone—so that they could perpetuate a free society. The vocational arts were training for earning a living in a particular trade or profession. Today, we have remnants of what liberal education was meant to be. Sometimes we call it “the humanities” or “general education,” but at the college level it’s often turned into social indoctrination. It’s money-driven now, because these are no longer private schools making independent decisions—they depend on government funding. The government dictates what’s taught, and that independence is gone. The priority to help us be a free people has disappeared. I could give you all kinds of examples from American and Western history that you’ve never heard—because they’re not taught in school anymore. Here’s how it used to be done—it was very simple. You would choose a text of broad and deep significance, what we call a great book. That’s where the Great Books of the Western World and the Harvard Classics came from. These are books that have stood the test of time—books that have spoken to people across generations, cultures, and circumstances. But in our modern, technological society, we’ve begun to think we can leave those behind. I’ll tell you—authors like Plato and Aristotle, whom I’ve studied, are completely relevant today. The things they discuss are the very things on my mind now. The way they reason and write—it’s often over my head. It’s hard for me to understand, even in modern English translations. I’m limping along to really grasp it. But I love this quote by Mortimer Adler, one of my favorites: “Whoever passes by what is over his head condemns his head to its present low altitude, for nothing can elevate a mind except what is over the head.” They chose deep, rich works. I did another video on the five types of questions, and I talked about St. Thomas Aquinas’s Treatise on the Passions. That’s the kind of reading we’re talking about. We all have passions, right? He explained that the passions follow a certain order, and he explored how they work. That’s exactly what you and I think about today: What are my emotions? How do they work? How much should I listen to them? These are timeless questions. They’re relevant, important, lasting, and world-changing. We need to understand what these thinkers said—why their ideas had such impact and how they changed the world. So, they would choose a truly rich text—often in the original language. These men (and sometimes women) would learn Latin and Greek. Then they’d study those works in small sections, reading and writing in a commonplace book. Books were rare and expensive, so you didn’t write in them. You’d copy long passages into your commonplace book—your favorite quotes, insights, questions, and reflections. That’s how you internalized what you read. Then you’d meet in a small group, or “pod,” with a tutor or mentor. You’d discuss what you’d read. The tutor would question you deeply, guiding you with thoughtful questions. If you want a better picture of what this looks like, go watch that video on the five types of questions—I share an example from one of Mortimer Adler’s classes. Those discussions were powerful. That’s why book groups were so popular in early America. Benjamin Franklin, in his Autobiography, describes how he started the first public library and made book clubs fashionable. It elevated the educational level of that generation and those that followed. Eventually, when you were ready, you’d have an oral exam. That’s how they knew you’d truly absorbed what you studied—when it had become a part of who you were. You could articulate it clearly, discuss it thoughtfully, and apply it wisely. You gained skills of discussion, negotiation, reasoning, and the search for truth—honed and refined over years of dialogue with your peers and tutors. The last part of a liberal arts education was about the use of free time—what was called leisure. Mortimer Adler argued that you can tell the quality of a person’s education by how they choose to spend their leisure time. Do they play instruments? Do they get involved in their community? Do they serve in government? Do they volunteer? Do they practice the fine arts? Do they build strong relationships? Do they read great books? Do they find ways to elevate themselves and those around them? The quality of that leisure time is the mark of a truly educated person. Someone with a real liberal education will always use their free time for the most enriching things. Adler said, “A good human life is one that is enriched by as much leisure as one can cram into it.” So, you’re always finding ways to elevate yourself as a human being—and to elevate humanity—through what you do when you don’t have to work. If you were dissatisfied like I was—if you felt frustrated with the kind of education you received, or sensed something was missing—you were right. You were robbed. Over the last century and a half, bits and pieces of this education were eroded away until now. You can expect low-quality textbooks, many steps removed from original sources. You can expect not to engage with great minds or great ideas. You can expect not to hear about the pivotal moments of Western history. You can expect to write papers for a professor instead of for yourself—to aim for “the right answers” instead of deep understanding. You can expect to stay stuck at the level of knowledge questions, instead of seeking meaning, truth, and personal application. So I hope that clears up what you’ve been robbed of—and helps you understand that a liberal arts education is the education we all need to become the best human beings we can possibly be. I spent fifteen or sixteen years in structured, formal, traditional public education. Later on, I discovered liberal education—and it absolutely changed me as a person. It changed the way I live, the way I think, the way I use my leisure time, the way I teach, and the values I hold most dear. It’s the great minds I’ve interacted with and the tools for lifelong learning that have completely transformed my life. If that’s something you want more of, we do learn these skills—we do engage with great minds and study the classics and great books—at The Mission Driven Mom, through the MDM Academy. Check that out, and tell me in the comments below about your experience with school—what you wish you’d had, and what you feel you missed out on. If this message was helpful for you today, please pass it on. Go ahead and subscribe and leave a review—that really helps us grow and reach other moms who we might be able to serve. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I’ll see you next time.
EP 129: WHY Are You A Mom? Reigniting Passion and Purpose in Motherhood
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ In this heartfelt episode, Audrey shares a powerful reflection on rediscovering purpose and reigniting passion as a mother and mission-driven woman. After hitting a personal “wall” while relaunching The Mission Driven Mom, she realized that clarity of purpose—knowing her why—was the missing ingredient. Through honest journaling, prayer, and reflection, Audrey reconnected with her deeper motivations, finding renewed excitement for her work and calling. She invites listeners—especially mothers who feel unfulfilled or weary—to pause, reflect, and ask themselves: “Why am I a mom? Why did I choose this life? Where do I want to take my family?” By rediscovering their “why,” moms can reclaim gratitude, purpose, and joy in their daily lives, and begin shaping the kind of family and legacy they truly desire. _______________________ Transcript (AI generated) Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited that you have joined me. When I was at the James Lindsay event—who I recently interviewed—there was an app we could use at the event to connect with other people attending. You filled it out and told a little about yourself, so I decided to do it. I put some information in there, including a link to The Mission Driven Mom website. About halfway through the event, I got a message on the app from someone who was in attendance. He said, “Do not leave before I talk to you.” Near the end, we finally connected, and he took me out into the hall. He said, “I have combed over your website, and you have perfectly described my wife. I’m a young attorney. I have a wife, and I can’t remember if he said two or three young children. We have arranged our lives so that my wife could be home with the children—that’s what we both wanted. And yet here we are, a few years in, and she is so unhappy. She’s struggling to get out of bed in the morning. She’s struggling to find joy in the day-to-day activities of mothering these small children, and I’m really, really worried about her.” It reminded me of something one of our students said about her experience before she joined the Academy. She said, “I felt there was something missing. I kind of felt like I needed a little something more. I had a good marriage, cute kids, but I wasn’t feeling happy, and I didn’t know why. I knew I had every reason to be happy, but I felt there was something I needed to change—and I didn’t know what, or where to start, or what was wrong.” So if you feel like these women did—if you are struggling to make it through your days with optimism, hope, and excitement; if you are feeling the drudgery that can sometimes come with lots of demands on your time and energy—and if you’ve been at this for a while and you’re starting to feel discouraged or lost, or if you feel like you have what you need to be happy and should be happy but you’re not—and you just can’t figure out why— I want to tell you what happened to me recently and give you a tip—something that you can do that I think might turn things around for you. Before I do that, I want to welcome you to the podcast and let you know that I’m the author of The Mission-Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World. If you head over to themissiondrivenmom.com, you can grab the first three chapters of that book for free. I’d love to give those to you so you can learn all about the Seven Laws of Life Mission that we take moms through to help them overcome this drudgery and unhappiness—to rise above their circumstances, to ground their lives in truth, and to begin having influence in their communities. It’s a beautiful process. So thank you for joining me today. Also, if you’re brand new to the podcast, you may want to go back and start at the beginning and listen to some of those early episodes where I go in-depth about the Seven Laws of Life Mission. You’ll also hear lots of mission-driven stories about great men and women who lived those seven laws, and there are many other podcasts that may interest you. Recently, I hit a wall with The Mission Driven Mom. I hit this wall a few years ago when we slowed things down and I stopped podcasting for a while—we kind of went quiet. But now we’re back, and we’re doing the things. It’s been really exciting as we’ve been relaunching the podcast and the Academy, and we’ve relaunched our yearly in-person event. You can actually sign up for that on the website as well—just click on Conference. This year the theme is Mothers of Creation, so you can head over there and sign up before it fills up. We’re relaunching, right? We’re in this phase, doing this—and I just hit this wall a few weeks ago. As I thought about it, I realized, “Oh, this looks very much like the wall I hit a couple years ago, which caused me to really go quiet and not know how to move forward.” I was frustrated, overwhelmed. I didn’t feel up for the task. I didn’t really know how to proceed. So I paused. I moved everything to a new platform and thought, “Well, I’ll make this program available, and I’ll write books, and we’ll just see what happens,” because I didn’t know how to crack the code on letting more students in. We had a bottleneck with mentors. Our business model wasn’t right. There were lots of problems. So now, as we’re going through this 2.0 launch, everything’s going fine—but new opportunities keep coming, and I’m hesitating. My husband sat me down and said, “Why are you hesitating? We’re all in. We’re doing this. We’ve been putting all this energy in—we’re gaining momentum. Why are you hesitating?” And you know, I felt frustrated. I felt worried. I felt overwhelmed. I felt all those feelings. Then I did something that I’m going to recommend you do—something that has made such a huge difference. This isn’t the only time I’ve done this in my life, but it’s the most recent, and it’s made such a big difference that I really believe it will help you. I decided to pause for a minute and dig deep—do some journaling, do some praying, a lot of pondering. Maybe go back to some of the things I’ve read, definitely spend time in scripture, and just ask myself the question: Why? Why are we coming back to this? Why are we relaunching? Why do I want to do this? Why does it matter? And the secondary question was: Where am I trying to get to? What is my why and what is my what? What is the goal? What is the objective? What does success look like? Where are we headed? At first, it was really exciting to relaunch the Academy—to have women signing up again, coming into the community. We have this better platform, and it’s really exciting. And then we’re doing more things, and more is being asked of me—and more, and more. More responsibility is on my shoulders. And I found that there are things about this new space that feel familiar—and worrisome. So I took time—a couple of weeks. I still did all the things in life that needed doing, but instead of focusing on a bunch of MDM tasks, I just paused to be with myself and with God, and to really explore why this mattered. Because for me, it’s not enough to just... I’m not in this to sell the Academy. If women do the Academy, that’s wonderful—and that’s why I put it on this new platform, so it would be available and anyone could sign up. But that alone doesn’t fill me with passion. It doesn’t light me on fire. One of the things I noticed is that I’ve been interviewed on quite a few podcasts recently. A few of them have been released, more are coming up. The conversations were beautiful and meaningful, and I meant everything I said—obviously, moms need to meet their real needs, love themselves better, discover their gifts, and recognize their God-given mission. All of that is meaningful and beautiful—and the conversations were wonderful—but I recognized they weren’t full of passion. In most instances, I wasn’t on fire. And that meant that the person interviewing me wasn’t on fire either. And I’m just going to be straight with you: I don’t need to be doing this. My kids are about to finish leaving home. I have time and resources. I could do whatever I want for the rest of my life. And I knew that going back in—but I kept needing to evaluate: Why am I hesitating? Why am I not full of passion—excited to be doing this? That doesn’t mean there can’t be stress or some down days and disappointments—it just means that overall, I had to ask: What’s wrong? Where am I trying to get to? What is my end game? And I want to tell you—it was incredible. I dug so deep that I discovered things about myself, about this organization, about where we’re headed, and about why I’m doing it—things I didn’t even know before. As I gained more clarity about what actually changed my life, what I’m truly trying to do for women, and how we as moms are really going to make a difference— I can just feel the passion bubbling up again as I say this. There are a lot of exciting things coming, and I am on fire about what we’re going to be releasing. But with all that being said—what you can do right now, if you’re not feeling it as a mom—if you know you have every reason to be happy, if you live in comfortable circumstances, you’re not starving, you have resources, you can educate yourself, you have beautiful children… Maybe your marriage isn’t perfect, but your husband’s a good guy—and yet you just aren’t feeling excited to be alive each day. You’re not full of passion, and you don’t have clarity. I would invite you to do what I’ve done—this time and many other times in my life—and really start journaling and asking yourself the question: Why am I a mom? Why did I want to become a mom? Why is this the life that I’ve chosen? And where am I trying to take us? What’s the destination I’m trying to reach with this family? I really believe you’ll have some amazing breakthroughs if you just sit with that. Let your beautiful, marvelous mind percolate on it—however many days or weeks it needs. Keep asking God. Keep asking that question as you read scripture, as you go through your day. Maybe talk to your spouse, maybe talk to your friends—but most of all, be with yourself. I was at a marriage retreat, and several good things happened there, but probably the most impactful was when they asked each of us to go off alone—with a pad of paper and a pen—and answer the question: Why do I want to keep living? One of the things we do in The Mission Driven Mom is learn how to get to fundamentals—to get to the first principles, the truths by which we can govern our lives. First principles tell us why—and when we know why, it’s much easier to find the energy, the motivation, and the passion to go discover the how. That’s part of what I needed to do. I have found an even bigger why—something I’m even more excited and passionate about sharing with you—and concrete ways in which I can show my love for the women I serve. It’s so exciting. It’s so rewarding. I’m ready to level up—to go learn principles that I haven’t yet known or haven’t been living in certain areas and facets of this movement. And I can do that because I know why. Because I’ve outlined those first principles and meanings for myself. So if you want more passion around your mothering, then go find out why. Why did you want to become a mother? Go back to those moments when you made those choices—the excitement you felt to have these children—and ask yourself: Where am I trying to get to? And journal, journal, journal—until some things become clear. When we were at that marriage retreat and asked to journal about that question, it was incredible. As we reentered the room, there were these grown men—strong, tough guys—who had been weeping. Because when they thought about why do I want to keep on living, the beauty of the life they were already sitting in became really clear. And you are sitting in the middle of a beautiful life. You are incredibly blessed. There are beautiful reasons why you chose to be a mother. If you can get back to some of those whys, it will start to clear the path for you. If we can be a resource and a help—if this podcast or our Academy can help you on that journey to find the principles that will help you be the mom you want to be and get where you want to go—then I’m grateful. But no matter what you do after you find your why, it’s vital that you dig deep and start asking yourself: Why did I sign up for this? Why am I a mom? Where do I want to take my family? It will reignite your passion. You’ll become far more clear. You’ll be much more grateful. Just sit in it long enough—it will bubble up. God will answer you. Your marvelous mind will come up with clear answers, and you’ll find that you really are grateful to be where you are—grateful for the opportunities that surround you today. And you may feel a little bit worried or overwhelmed about where you want to go—but there are answers when you have that why. When we’re clear about first principles, it’s so much easier to go out, search for those principles, practice living them, and use them as the gateway to develop the kind of family and life we can be proud of. So that’s my challenge to you: Think about why you’re a mom and what success looks like for you. Journal about it. And if you’re so inclined, share your thoughts below if you’re on YouTube, or send us a message. I would love to hear why you’re a mom and where you’re trying to get to. I would love to know why this is the life you’ve chosen and what beautiful things you’ve discovered about it. Because we’re in this together. We’re going to uplevel ourselves—and by doing so, uplevel our homes and our communities. It’s a beautiful journey that we’re on together. So thank you for joining me today. Please take the time to journal about those questions and share your answers with me. I would love to hear more about that. And if this message was helpful for you today, please pass it on—go ahead and subscribe and leave a review. That really helps us grow and get the word out to other moms we may be able to serve. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I will see you next time.
EP 128: My 5 Takeaways from the Controversial Trans Bestseller “Irreversible Damage”
Get Your FREE Audiobook Chapters from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/. Want to get at the meat of what's wrong with the trans movement? In this episode Audrey outlines her 5 biggest takeaways from her extensive research into the trans movement and her study of the controversial book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters by Abigail Shrier. If this craze has boggled, confused, or upset you, listen in for a synopsis of the biggest issues around this cultural trouble and how to look at it with more clarity. _____________________________ PODCAST TRANSCRIPT (AI Generated) Years ago, at my organization The Mission Driven Mom, I was running a leadership retreat and decided to do a presentation on the sexual revolution in the United States. I had already done quite a bit of research, but I dug even deeper before the retreat. When I presented all this information to the women there, I was honestly shocked — almost everything I shared was completely new to them. Some of the things they had never heard before, and most of it they knew little to nothing about. That experience really opened my eyes to a serious problem in our culture. We live in what’s called the information age — which would make you think we all have access to high-quality knowledge about all sorts of topics. But that’s actually not the case. There’s a tremendous amount of misinformation out there, and it’s difficult to sift through the noise and find reliable sources. Because of that, I’ve spent years reading some of the best books and research available on issues that are affecting our culture — topics that seem to have gone completely off the rails. The transgender movement is one of those. So I picked up Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. I wanted to understand why there’s been such a sudden surge — this flood of young girls seeking testosterone, top surgery, and beyond. We know the numbers are climbing at a shocking rate. Historically, we actually have very good data — at least a hundred years’ worth — on gender dysphoria. For most of that time, over 90% of those who experienced it were male. It usually appeared in early childhood, and in the vast majority of cases, the feelings resolved naturally by early adulthood. Of those who continued to experience it, many became homosexual men, and a small percentage transitioned — what used to be called “transsexuals.” But even among that older generation, they never believed they could literally become the opposite sex. When you talk to trans individuals from those earlier decades, they often describe simply feeling more comfortable presenting as the opposite gender. Some had surgeries to help them do that, but they didn’t claim that changing clothes or undergoing surgery actually made them women. So for a century, this pattern held steady — until around 2006. That’s when things began to flip. There are reasons for that, rooted in the broader history of sexual identity movements in the West, but 2006 marks a turning point. The number of girls identifying as the opposite gender — and seeking hormones or surgeries — began to rise dramatically. By 2016, Shrier reports that natal females made up 46% of all gender reassignment surgeries in the United States. Just one year later, that number jumped to 70%, and it has continued to climb since then. Now, one reason we struggle to understand what’s happening — even in the so-called information age — is that we don’t always do our homework. On this channel, I try to share tools and strategies for how to research well and think critically about the sources we use. Another reason is that many people simply don’t know where to look or who to trust. Lots of experts have impressive credentials or bios, and it’s easy to assume that means they’re reliable. But in reality, good information is often hidden, misrepresented, or outright suppressed. In Irreversible Damage, Abigail Shrier shares an interesting example. In November 2020, after the book had been selling well for about four months, a Twitter user posted this message: “@AskTarget, why are you selling a book notorious for its harmful rhetoric against us? Historically, harmful products have been pulled from your shelves — and this should be too.” And that was all it took. Based on the complaints of just two Twitter users, the book was pulled from Target.com. It was banned and protested in other places as well. There are also numerous YouTube videos denouncing it as “transphobic.” So, I thought today we could spend a few minutes on this topic, and I’d share my five big takeaways from the book. I’ve got to say right from the outset — I didn’t see a lot of transphobia in it. In fact, one thing that made reading it especially interesting was that I went through it with a book club. One of the women in our group identifies as quite a bit more liberal and left-leaning than the rest of us. She’s very supportive of LGBTQ+ causes, and she was nervous about reading the book. Her circles had warned her that it was going to be transphobic and problematic. And yes — there are moments when Shrier uses a bit of tongue-in-cheek or sarcastic humor that can come across as a little distasteful. But beyond that, even this woman in our group ended up really enjoying the book. She saw the value in what Shrier was saying, and it led to some great conversations about what we can do — both individually and as a society — in response to this transgender craze. Shrier makes a striking point in the book: “A remarkable thing about the continuous campaign against Irreversible Damage is that it came amid additional confirmation that the book’s claims were true.” And that’s exactly what we’ve seen. The book is only two or three years old, but time has already proven many of her concerns to be valid. We’re now seeing several countries passing legislation to restrict certain practices or to slow them down. And while the transgender movement is still growing — and the majority of mainstream voices continue to promote it — evidence keeps emerging that supports what Shrier argued. Her main claim is this: the sudden rush of girls seeking hormones and transgender surgeries — what’s being called “rapid-onset gender dysphoria” — is not actually gender dysphoria in the traditional sense. It’s a craze, a social contagion, and rushing these girls into medical transition is not in their best interest. So, in light of all that, my first big takeaway from the book is this: 👉 We can only fight with truth. Right now, we simply don’t know the full truth about the transgender craze. We don’t have enough solid, unbiased information — and it would really benefit us to read books like this one. I have a couple of other books on the topic sitting on my shelf, and I’ve watched dozens of detransition videos and interviews with experts in this field. And I’ve got to say — if you’re only paying attention to surface-level information, the kind that shows up in your social media feed or the headlines — you’ll end up being pro-trans in ways that are actually harmful to young people, especially those under 18. So takeaway number one: we don’t yet have the whole truth, and we can only stand for what’s right if we’re willing to seek it. As I was watching all of these detransition videos, I started noticing some common themes — and I want to talk about a couple of them. One thing that really stood out to me was this: sometimes, it’s easier to change what’s on the outside than it is to change what’s on the inside. And that’s not unique to the transgender movement — that’s something all of us struggle with in different ways. It’s part of being human. But in these stories — mostly girls transitioning to boys — this theme came up over and over again. Now, Abigail Shrier highlights the same thing in her book, and it matched exactly what I was seeing in these videos. In almost every case, there were preexisting mental health conditions — depression, anxiety, self-harm — and often social struggles as well. Many of these girls were on the autism spectrum or had traits associated with it. So these girls were already struggling. They already felt like outsiders. They already felt broken or “different.” Shrier gives a few statistics about the number who were cutting, the number who were clinically anxious — and the pattern was striking. Here’s what parents consistently reported: their daughter had social struggles and anxiety but no signs of gender dysphoria in childhood. Then she enters high school, makes a group of new friends — and several of those friends come out as transgender. Soon after, she makes the same announcement. And from that point on, her mental health actually worsens. In other cases, it wasn’t the school friends but the online communities influencing them. These girls felt so lonely in real life that they turned to the internet, where they were quickly immersed in circles that reinforced the idea that they must be trans. There are even online quizzes or “tests” where they’re asked questions like, “Have you ever felt uncomfortable in your body?” or “Have you ever struggled to fit in?” And of course, those are universal experiences! Every one of us could say yes to those. But for socially awkward, already hurting girls looking for answers, this becomes a new label that feels like relief — a new identity that promises to fix what’s wrong inside. And again, it’s easier to change the outside than the inside. So my second big takeaway from Shrier’s book is this: 👉 Virtually all of these girls have preexisting mental health challenges and social struggles — and that makes it tempting to focus on outward change instead of inward healing. And in their defense, many of them don’t even know what’s wrong or how to fix it. They just know they’re unhappy, and transitioning looks like a solution. Add to that the fact that there’s a huge amount of social validation that comes with coming out as transgender — especially online. Yes, there’s still bullying in schools. But overall, many of these girls suddenly receive an outpouring of support, encouragement, and praise. They’re told they’re brave and courageous. That kind of affirmation is incredibly powerful for someone who already feels invisible or broken. Now, as I mentioned, I’ve watched a lot of these detransition stories — and everything I saw was echoed in Shrier’s research. It was like reading a well-documented version of what I’d already found on my own. One thing they all talk about is how easy it was to get the medical interventions. In most cases, on their very first visit to Planned Parenthood, they were prescribed testosterone. One girl said she even asked for the maximum dose — and they gave it to her right away. It’s not just Planned Parenthood. Many psychologists and psychiatrists now approve medical interventions after a single visit. Parents of younger children are often told that if they don’t affirm their child’s new identity, the child will commit suicide. Puberty blockers are offered extremely early in the process. This whole mindset is called affirmative care — the idea that if someone says they are something, you simply affirm it as truth. But if you stop to think about that for even a minute, it doesn’t line up with how we treat any other medical or psychological condition. In every other area, there’s testing, diagnosis, and careful consideration before prescribing serious medication or recommending surgery. I remember watching a Jordan Peterson interview where they were analyzing the case of Chloe Cole — a detransitioned young woman I actually met a few weeks ago at the Capitol in Austin. Peterson said, from a professional standpoint, that before such a life-altering decision, a person should have at least a year of weekly or biweekly therapy sessions to truly unpack what’s going on. Of course, that didn’t happen for Chloe — and it doesn’t happen for most of these girls. In any other situation — whether we’re talking about cancer or bipolar disorder — we would never give medication or perform major interventions without solid evidence and diagnosis. Yet, in this space, we’re skipping all those steps and making irreversible changes based solely on self-identification. And that’s deeply concerning. Building on everything we’ve talked about, it actually gets even worse — because not only is the affirmative care model being used, but in most cases, there’s also no real informed consent happening. So many parents have shared that they didn’t understand even the most basic facts — like what puberty blockers actually do. They were told these medications were “safe” or “reversible,” but no one explained that they stop normal puberty and physical maturity, and that this can lead to long-term psychological and physical consequences. Many of these kids end up developing osteoporosis — that’s something most parents never hear about beforehand. They’re also rarely told that puberty blockers can cause permanent sterilization, or that cross-sex hormones can significantly increase the risk of heart disease, cancers, and other serious medical issues. I’ve personally met several of these young people and watched dozens of their stories online. Almost all of them said they never truly understood what they were signing up for. No one explained what these treatments would mean for their fertility, their long-term health, or their ability to experience sexual function later in life. So my third big takeaway from all this research — and from Abigail Shrier’s documentation — is this: 👉 Affirmative care doesn’t work, and there is essentially no informed consent happening in the transgender movement. Now, another thing that really hit home for me while reading Irreversible Damage was just how lonely this generation of teens is. Across the board, people are lonelier than ever before — but Shrier goes into great detail showing how isolated and sheltered today’s teens have become. In the past, teens were often seen as reckless — they’d push boundaries, do things like drink, smoke, sneak out, or drive too fast. And while those behaviors aren’t healthy, they at least represented real-world experiences. Kids were learning through trial and error, interacting face-to-face, and navigating relationships. Today’s teens are missing that. They’re living largely online. They’re anxious about in-person interaction, and many of them are struggling with depression and social anxiety. Instead of developing healthy romantic relationships, many are turning to pornography — which completely distorts their sense of intimacy. And if that’s what intimacy looks like to them — something degrading or violent — then it’s understandable that they would say, “I don’t want any part of that.” So when someone tells them, “Transitioning might sterilize you,” they shrug it off. They don’t care, because their concept of real love and real connection has already been damaged. In fact, some of these girls explicitly say that their desire to transition came after watching disturbing pornography that left them afraid of men and unwilling to ever be intimate with one. Shrier cites some powerful statistics: In 1994, 76% of 17-year-olds had experienced some kind of romantic relationship. By 2014, that number had dropped to 46%. And we’re almost another decade past that — so you can imagine how much lower it is today. So nearly half of our 17-year-olds have never had a real-world romantic relationship. They feel anxious about human interaction, spend up to nine hours a day online, and experience the highest rates of depression, anxiety, suicidality, and loneliness we’ve ever seen. Now, one thing I really appreciated about Shrier’s approach is that she’s not saying these girls aren’t in pain. She’s saying the opposite — that they’re in deep pain. She simply believes — and I agree — that transitioning isn’t the right answer to that pain. Most of these girls will end up regretting these irreversible decisions because they never addressed the real source of their suffering. So my fourth big takeaway is this: 👉 Teens today are lonelier than ever, and because they lack deep, real-world relationships, they’re unequipped to make major life decisions like transitioning. They’re already too young to fully grasp the consequences — but their emotional and social isolation makes them even more vulnerable. This loneliness and lack of connection is a huge source of pain for these girls, and it’s one of the driving forces behind this movement. Finally, my fifth and last takeaway has to do with how all of this is being promoted and reinforced by powerful institutions — the medical establishment, the psychological establishment, the government, and the schools. Shrier gives several examples from each, and I have to admit, I had a sense this was happening — but I didn’t realize the extent of it. We’ve already talked about how the medical community is allowing these interventions without informed consent, and how therapists are labeling kids as trans after just one or two sessions. That’s the psychological establishment’s role — cooperating with, and in some cases outright promoting, the rush to medicalization. Then there’s the government, which is increasingly cutting parents out of the process altogether. In Canada — and now, increasingly in the U.S. — there have been cases where parents have lost custody, been fined, or even jailed for refusing to go along with their child’s transition. And the manipulation starts early. Parents are often told things like, “Would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?” — an emotionally manipulative statement that pushes them to comply. In some situations, they’re even legally forced to comply or threatened by professionals if they don’t. And then there’s the school system — which I honestly didn’t realize was as involved as it is. I assumed this was mostly student-driven, maybe supported by a few activist teachers. But in many liberal states, it’s actually institutionally promoted — a very aggressive push. Some universities now even include gender transition surgeries in their student health insurance, making it not only accessible but almost free. And, of course, there’s tremendous social and institutional support for those decisions at the college level. All of this adds up to a perfect storm: emotional vulnerability, misinformation, social isolation, and institutional reinforcement. Now, you’re an adult—you can make all your own decisions. But even in elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools, the schools are beginning to—especially in California and along the West Coast—put policies in place that intentionally create a break between the child and the parent. In fact, the NEA has a policy stating that when a trans-identified student comes out at school, the parents don’t need to be informed—in fact, they usually should not be informed. There’s even a place where the child can check a box that says, “Do my parents know?” And if the parents don’t know, then the school’s policy is not to tell them. So what happens is that schools create a separate set of documents with the child’s new name and gender on them, while holding onto the originals with the legal name. The parents only see the legal documents, so they have no idea their child is literally living a double life. There are many stories about this happening—parents have come to the Capitol to testify about it. Schreyer gives several examples in her book, including interviews with parents who experienced this firsthand. The NEA says, “Privacy and confidentiality are critically important for transgender students who do not have supportive families. In those situations, even inadvertent disclosures could put the student in a potentially dangerous situation at home. So it’s important to have a plan in place to help avoid any mistakes or slip-ups.” It’s absolutely mind-blowing that these practices are becoming more and more commonplace. So my last big takeaway is this: 👉 The profound loss of parental rights! We are no longer seen as the ones ultimately responsible for our children. And I don’t mean “owning” them, but who does the child belong to? Is it the doctor’s child? The psychologist’s child? The school’s child? The government’s child? It’s complicated, I get it—there are laws to protect children from abuse, and sometimes that gets gray and sticky. But this is different. These children are not capable of making such major life decisions, especially when parents genuinely believe it’s not right for them. Parents should have the right to stop that process. Once a child turns 18 and is a legal adult, they can move forward however they choose. But parents shouldn’t have to go through the anguish and heartbreak of cooperating with something they know is deeply harmful for their child. In one interview I watched, parents described the process as a kind of grief—they’re losing their child as that child transitions to another gender. And they’re often ostracized for it. Nobody’s on their side. Nobody sees their pain, because the focus is all about “celebrating” the child and condemning the parents if they hesitate or struggle emotionally. I want to end with something C. Scott Miller said. He’s the Equality California liaison to the California Teachers Association—the one who gives recommendations and works on policy. Here’s what he said: “Even parents that come in and say, ‘I don’t want my kid to be called that’—that’s nice. But their parental right ended when those kids were enrolled in public school.” So parents, this is a call to you: rise up. Do whatever you can to educate yourselves. Read this book, read others, watch interviews, learn what laws are active in your state, and fight for your right to do what’s best for your child—whatever that looks like. Because you are their parent, and you have the right to make those decisions. You shouldn’t be left in the dark while your children are working with Planned Parenthood, the government, or the schools without your knowledge. Thank you for joining me for this overview of my five takeaways from Irreversible Damage. I’ll see you next time.
EP 127: All About Life Mission Series - How Does Mission Driven Living Work?
Get Your FREE Chapters in Audio format from The Mission Driven Life: Discover and Fulfill Your Unique Contribution to the World: https://www.themissiondrivenmom.com/ “Your mission, should you choose to accept it…” These are words meant not just for Ethan Hunt but for YOU, right now! God divinely fashioned you to make a difference where you are. Your level of commitment to preparing for the calls God has for you will make all the difference for you, for your family, for your community, and beyond. And all you have to do is say “YES!” Through the lens of the Mission Impossible movies, Audrey demonstrates just how mission driven living works. Then, taking those same ideas into the life of George Washington and her own personal experiences, she paints a picture of a beautiful life cadence from one call to the next—full of self-discovery, personal development, and blessings to those around us. If you’re ready to say yes and begin the adventure of life mission in your own life, this podcast is for you! ________________ Transcript AI Generated: Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I’m Audrey Rindlisbacher, author of The Mission-Driven Life, founder of The Mission-Driven Mom, creator of the MDM Academy, and I’m your host today to talk about this series of questions we’re answering—what is a mission-driven life, what is mission-driven living, how does it work, and how can we be more mission-driven individuals? I want to thank you for joining me today. If you’re brand new, you can head back to the beginning of the podcast and listen to some of those first episodes. They’ll give you some backstory. We talk in detail about the Seven Laws of Life Mission. You can listen to some mission-driven stories, and in the meantime, you can also keep up with our most recent podcasts. You can expect a variety of different types of podcasts here. We tell mission-driven stories about great men and women—or sometimes men and women living today—who are living according to these Seven Laws of Life Mission. We also talk about what mission-driven living and a mission-driven life look like, which we’re going to dive into today. We also talk to some of our students and graduates about the amazing things they’re doing in the world today in their mission-driven lives. And I also interview individuals—authors, influencers, and others—who have important things to teach us about how we can be more mission-driven in our own lives right now. So thank you for joining me. It’s a joy to be here. If you haven’t headed over to themissiondrivenmom.com to get your free audiobook chapters, I encourage you to do that. We’re giving you part of The Mission-Driven Life book so that you can hear the backstory and framework of the Seven Laws and get acquainted with them easily. While you’re there, if you want a hard copy, you can grab a copy of the book as well. So thank you for being here today. We’re going to answer the question: How does mission-driven living work? And if you stay until the end, you’ll hear a little about my own path along this mission-driven life that I’m attempting to lead, and some of the stories of how I got started and what it’s looked like for me. But I want to start out by giving you a frame of reference for mission-driven living that we’re all probably familiar with—and that is the Mission: Impossible movies. You guessed it—Ethan Hunt enters stage left. In fact, I was reviewing one of the movies recently so I could say this more intelligently to you. It’s just so funny how he’s always on a plane or a mountain or something, and then something gets dropped and it says, “This is your mission, should you choose to accept it.” And it’s always insanely difficult and basically impossible. But in the one I was watching recently, he’s talking to his superior and says, “Well, that sounds really hard.” And his superior replies, “This is Mission: Impossible. ‘Hard’ should be a walk in the park.” So, we aren’t going to do Mission: Impossible when we try to live a mission-driven life, but sometimes it can feel like “Mission: Pretty Hard.” You’ve probably seen one or more Mission: Impossible movies. You know who Ethan Hunt is—you have some context. So, keeping that in mind, let’s think about how those movies always start: he’s given the opportunity to choose to do something. There’s a need in the world. The world is calling to him: “Will you come and save us?” in some specific way. The one I watched recently was Mission: Impossible 2. In that story, there’s a deadly virus that kills within two days, and a corrupt company has been building both the virus and its antidote so they can create the problem and then sell the solution. The scientist working on it tries to get to the United States—probably to work with the U.S. government—but he’s killed along the way. So the call that Ethan Hunt gets is: “Will you save the world? Will you find where this virus is? We have an agent who’s gone rogue—he has both the virus and the antidote—and we need to stop him before he starts a global epidemic.” Now, the calls that you and I get aren’t going to be to save the world in such a literal way. But I want to break down what goes on with Ethan so that you can better understand how this applies to us. If you’ve read my book—or even just parts of it—you’ve seen how, in everyday ways, we can hear and answer calls all the time. There are also larger, encompassing elements. In my last video in this series, I shared an analogy about a king who sees all the needs of his kingdom, and when you make yourself available, he sends you where you’re needed. Today, I want to talk more about the tactical side—what it actually looks like and how it really works. In Ethan Hunt’s case, there have been years and years of preparation. These are what we call the foundational laws: loving God, loving yourself, loving truth, and loving humanity. We’ll return to those laws all our lives. We can always get better at loving ourselves, loving God, loving truth, and loving humanity. But until our home is in good enough order—until we’re out of victimhood, our relationships are more stable, and we’re living some solid financial and personal principles—it’s very hard, when things are messy and out of control, to go out and serve others. That’s why, when we see ourselves as children of God and treat ourselves as such, we can first be of service to ourselves and our homes. That’s where it starts. We work on ourselves and our homes first, and then we can begin serving in our community. Now, Ethan Hunt probably doesn’t believe in God, and I don’t know if he’s lived all these laws, but he’s definitely prepared. And those foundational laws encourage us to prepare as well. There are two ways we prepare for the calls God has for us: We say yes right now to the things we already know we should do. We prepare as we go. We’re intentional about our preparation. We gain knowledge and skills, we work on ourselves and our homes first, and we recognize that preparation leads to calls—and calls lead to more preparation. As we execute calls, we develop new skills and gain more experience, which makes us more capable of answering larger and larger calls. We don’t know much about Ethan Hunt’s backstory—maybe there’s a book series somewhere—but what we do know is that he shows up with massive preparation, education, and skill. He’s done a lot to become the person capable of answering a call that big—one to save the world. Here are some practical skills he’s clearly developed: He’s proficient with guns, explosives, and other equipment—an expert-level operator. He knows which weapons to use and when. He’s also incredibly good at hand-to-hand combat, with strength, agility, and endurance at the top of his physical game. In Mission: Impossible 2, he’s even free-climbing a rock wall at the beginning! There are always car chases, too—and he can manage all kinds of vehicles: cars, motorcycles, helicopters, and more. He can operate them under high-stress, high-stakes conditions with incredible precision. He also works with a team. He handpicks his people, depends on them, trusts them implicitly, listens to their advice, and surrounds himself with those who can help him accomplish his mission. He’s an excellent team leader—he sees what needs to be done and coordinates everyone effectively. He’s also an expert in secrecy, stealth, and spy work. Now, of course, not everyone could reach his level of proficiency—and honestly, his abilities are “impossible” because it’s Hollywood—but there are real people, like Navy SEALs or special agents, who train and develop high levels of these same kinds of skills. He also has access to a vast network of resources. The heads of his organization are plugged into the world’s top leaders and intelligence networks. In the story I watched, they’d discovered the virus threat and were coordinating with top agencies globally. They trust Ethan completely—he’s earned that trust—and they give him everything he needs to succeed. They provide him with other agents—in that movie, a woman whose trust he had to earn because of her relationship with the villain, which allowed her to infiltrate. He can also choose the rest of his team, and they’re all experts in their respective fields. They back him up with tech, surveillance, and intelligence. He has access to all the equipment he needs—explosives, technology, flights, secret identities, passports, travel arrangements—whatever it takes. They also cover his living expenses and provide financial resources and global connections. If you listened to my last podcast, this probably sounds familiar—it’s the same analogy I used before. And finally, his personal character: we admire Ethan Hunt because he puts his life on the line for the good of others. He usually has little to gain and a lot to lose when he accepts these missions. Sometimes it’s his wife’s life at stake; other times, it’s the whole world. It’s definitely over-the-top praise for him—but it’s also inspiring. But the fundamental issue is, he doesn’t have to be this guy. He doesn’t have to risk his life—and he does. And we know that. Sometimes his life might be at risk, but sometimes not. Sometimes it wouldn’t affect him much not to do the mission, but he’s the type of person who has been willing to do all the work to get himself in this position where he can do this kind of work. And he’s always willing to risk himself for the greater good. He keeps himself in top condition. He accepts the mission. He has a passion for the work. He has the natural talents and abilities—in addition to the preparation. Obviously, he had interests in that direction, and he was willing to do the work to be that kind of person. In many ways, he doesn’t always have the same moral compass that I would have in different aspects of his life. But he definitely knows some key, fundamental aspects of right and wrong. He really respects life. He tries not to kill people, even if they’re very evil, unless he absolutely has to. And it’s those traits that he has that cause us to like him, trust him, want to follow him in his adventures, and to cheer him on when he’s trying to make the world a better place. And of course, all of us can choose to be Ethan Hunt. We can choose to live a mission-driven life, where we hear calls and we answer them. So I’m going to give you the example of George Washington, and we’re going to walk through and talk about what mission-driven living looked like for him. And then I’m going to tell you a little bit about me. He, of course, was born in 1732 in Virginia to a slaveholding family, and they were pretty well off. I don’t know all the details—I didn’t go research everything about why he didn’t inherit and how that all went down—but when he was eleven years old, his father died. And when this happened, basically his formal education ended. If you’ve read much about Washington or from Washington, you know that he was very self-conscious about this. He was surrounded by men who had the most elite education available, probably in the world at that time, but definitely in the United States. And he felt inferior to them because he tried to be a lifelong learner. He tried to always keep reading and educating himself, but he hadn’t learned all of the other languages, and he hadn’t read all of the great classics that they had. And so he felt a little bit inferior, and it was because his dad died and he didn’t get to finish that formal education where he would’ve received that tutoring. So time goes by, and he’s working, he’s learning, he’s doing the stuff. And when he’s seventeen years old, he’s appointed to be a county surveyor for a frontier county called Culpeper. It’s really interesting because this is where his interests, his natural propensities—his strengths—really started to show. He was a very tall man, a very strong man. He was more inclined to tactical things rather than abstract ones. Someone like Thomas Jefferson was interested in tinkering with things and inventing, but definitely way more of an intellectual. George Washington loved to be outdoors. He loved the rough and tumble. He loved to do things with his hands. So when he was seventeen years old, he accepted this post to be a surveyor, and he did really well at it. He really, really liked it—and it was rough work. I mean, he was out living in the middle of nowhere on his own, living off the land, and trying to survey this county by himself. It taught him a lot of lessons. And the question I’m going to ask as I go through this example, and my own, is—was this his mission? Was the call to be a surveyor? Well, yeah, he felt like it was the right thing to do. It matched his interests, and like I mentioned before, it developed certain traits, certain gifts, certain skills that he used later. The more he did this kind of thing, the better he got at it, and the more everything he learned could be of use. It’s this cumulative effect in our lives when we say yes. And he keeps saying yes—to the next call, to the next opportunity. He faces his fears. He steps out courageously. He does something he’s never done before. Sometimes with minimal mentorship, sometimes with minimal financial aid—he just does it. He takes on the adventure. He says yes to the call again and again. A couple of years later, his brother becomes ill. So they travel together to Barbados—it’s the only time Washington travels outside North America. While he’s in Barbados, he contracts smallpox. Again, this becomes an opportunity to go do something adventurous, to see the world, and it’s also a call to take care of his brother. He travels with him so he doesn’t have to travel alone. And guess what happens? He gets really, really sick. But by virtue of the fact that he got sick, he was able to care for his soldiers and remain in the war later when smallpox broke out. So again, every time we take an opportunity to serve—he’s serving his brother, he’s developing his own skills—it comes back to bless him and many other people in the future. A year or so later, Governor Dinwiddie, the governor of Virginia, sends him on a mission to the Ohio Valley to deliver a message to the French. And when he goes on this journey, he keeps a journal and writes down everything that happens. When he’s done, it’s a successful mission, but again, it’s fraught with danger. He’s traveling through Native American territory to deliver a message to the French. It’s very dangerous—he could have lost his life—but it was important for Virginia that this happen. He had proven himself in the militia and through his work as a surveyor, so he was given this task. In fact, I think he may have even volunteered for it. He was just in his early twenties. By virtue of the fact that he ran a successful mission and wrote down his journal, which he later handed to Governor Dinwiddie, this journal was printed—and you can still find it online. It made him a local celebrity and earned him a lot of respect. A year later, he’s still a soldier—now a major—and he travels again to the Ohio Valley to fight for Virginia’s claim on some land. During that campaign, he has a combative confrontation with French soldiers. His men end up retreating and surrendering. It’s really embarrassing to Washington. But again, he’s on the front lines. He’s learning a lot from these experiences. He’s so embarrassed by this that he resigns his commission. That failed campaign ends up sparking the French and Indian War. He could’ve just decided he’d had enough—that he was too embarrassed, that it was over—but he didn’t. He didn’t slink away. He kept saying yes when new opportunities came. He recognized that he loved being in the military—that was where he performed best—and that he really wanted to be involved. He loved his country, the colony of Virginia, and he wanted to fight for and defend it. The next year, he returns to the Ohio frontier as a volunteer for General Braddock. He exhibits great courage and leadership, and because of this, he’s recognized for his conduct in battle and given command of the entire military force of Virginia. Still a very young man, just in his mid-twenties, he’s already recognized as someone with great courage and valor in the face of death. Of course, countless people in America—and around the world—owe the freedom they enjoy, at least in part, to this man. A few years later, he marries Martha Custis, the widow of a wealthy man and mother of two young children. George and Martha couldn’t have children together—it was probably George’s infertility, since Martha had already had children. He loved his stepchildren as his own. For the next sixteen years, they lived at Mount Vernon. He was a gentleman farmer, and he loved it. From the beginning, he was born into a slaveholding culture—he couldn’t change that—but he did try to live it differently. He was generous with his slaves. He kept families together and wouldn’t sell them off, even though it became a financial burden. He gave them opportunities to innovate on the property and lived in relative harmony with them. Obviously, they were still enslaved, so I’m not trying to sugarcoat it—but within the time and place he lived, he elevated his circumstances. He lived a higher level of truth at a time when he didn’t have to. That tells us a lot about his character. Then, of course, in 1775, he’s appointed Commander of the Continental Army. For eight years he risks his life over and over again, taking care of his soldiers who often had nothing. If you study that war, you’ll see the struggle and the heartache—how they went without supplies, how the states didn’t always send soldiers or money. It was awful. And when the war was over, he resigned his commission and gave his power back to the people. He was declared a hero around the world because that kind of humility and integrity were rare. Finally, I said yes. Okay, I’ll try it. You’re gonna get what you’re gonna get—I just made sure they understood this was going to be whatever it was going to be. I wasn’t making any promises. But they wanted me to come, so I did. I found out that I’m a pretty okay speaker naturally. Then I got asked to be on a panel, and then to speak more at conferences. So for over twenty years, I’ve been public speaking simply because I said yes when people asked me. They saw something in me that I didn’t see in myself, and I responded to that feedback. So this book club grows and grows. By the end of that year, I’m homeschooling, and I realize we don’t have the kinds of things I want—we don’t have a science fair, we don’t have group outings, we don’t have family events. I really wanted an annual Shakespeare dinner for couples where we could read Shakespeare together and enjoy a traditional dinner. I wanted a family ball. And I knew other people wanted these things too. I saw a need, and I answered the call. I gathered a few friends, we met over the summer, brainstormed how we could do it together. We booked a free room at the library, sent out invitations to people we knew, and asked them to invite others. They came, they paid a small annual fee, they volunteered in the community, and we connected online. It grew and grew until we had over a hundred families in this community. We had an annual ball every year. Later I moved, but it outlived me—it kept going. And all I did was say yes—like George Washington, like Ethan Hunt. Every time I said yes, I learned, I grew, I developed. I found more gifts. I made mistakes and learned from them. And over time, I was able to have more and more influence—really until now. Today, I’m on this podcast. I’ve had the privilege of talking to people like James Lindsay and Susie Mighell, who will be on soon, and others I’ve been reaching out to. I’ve been able to work with Richard Paul Evans, a number one New York Times bestselling author, who helped design my cover and endorsed my book. I’ve had the privilege of amazing experiences—meeting heroes, taking pictures with them, and hoping to meet more. When I was bumping around that college campus years ago, I never imagined I’d be doing what I’m doing today. I’m not famous. Most people don’t know who I am. I’m not Ethan Hunt or George Washington. But in my own small way, in the circles I move in, I’m trying to serve. I’m trying to see a need and answer a call—to give people something that I believe will bless their lives. And in many cases, it’s blessed mine too. In every case, I bring my family with me. I’ve taught them the things I’ve learned, read books aloud to them, and built a family culture of great literature. They saw the book club in our home. They saw me taking risks and facing fears. They’ve come to hear me speak, and when I was on the radio or speaking at big public rallies, they could be proud of a mom using her gifts in the world. I’ve had the privilege of serving over six hundred women in the academy and watching their lives change through the curriculum I’ve built—which happens to be one of my gifts. And you can do these same things. You are so much more gifted than you think you are. You can truly live a mission-driven life—where, over time, as you see a need and say yes, as you grow in your love of God, you love yourself better. You take the actions of love for yourself—self-care, self-leadership, self-discovery. Then you love truth. You build a principle-centered life and a principle-centered home and family. Then you go out and learn about the people in your community. You understand the bridges you can build through shared principles. Then you see needs and start to answer them—as many of our graduates are doing right now. And as you listen to their stories on this podcast, I hope they’ll inspire you too. This is you. This can be you. You are amazing. All you have to do is say yes. Just say yes right now. Offer yourself to God. Tell Him that you’re willing to learn and grow—to face fears, to take personal inventory, to strive to overcome, and to grow as an individual. He will show you the first step. If my book can help, I’m grateful. If our academy can help, I’m grateful. But most of all, what I really want you to know is that you are divinely fashioned—that you are irreplaceable, that your worth is infinite, and that you can make a difference right now, where you are. You’re already leading. People are already following you. They’re watching you level up, improve your game, improve your skills. Go practice more. Be willing to fail faster. Be willing to take risks. Be willing to face your fears. You will be shocked at the person you become, the opportunities that open up to you, and the positive influence you get to have—right where you are, in your own world. So please, become that servant leader God means for you to be—because the world misses out if you don’t become who you could be. Thank you so much for joining me today. If this podcast has been a help or inspiration to you, please pass it along and leave us a review. Thank you for joining me, and I’ll see you next time.