Reinventing Church
Derek Sanford
Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Episodes
46: Civic Engagement as Ministry
What counts as church? If you've heard "nature is my church" or "my coffee group is my church," this one's for you. (Also, this is not a sleep podcast. Huberman we are not.) Derek traces the word from Jesus' ekklesia, through the scattered believers of Acts and the house churches a pagan critic mocked, to the Reformation, John Wesley's field preaching, and the attractional model most of us grew up in. Then Derek and Danielle meet Amanda Maphis, the first of this season's everyday influencers. For five years Amanda has advocated for her husband after a car accident left him disabled. When she took Grace Church's Handcrafted Calling class, her two words were "advocating opportunities." She was a little disappointed. Then one afternoon, putting groceries away, she heard a news story about a new governor's advisory commission and thought, "I could totally do that." In this episode: Why ekklesia named a people long before "church" named a building The unnamed believers who planted the church in Antioch (Acts 11) How the word "parish" started out as an exile's address (1 Peter) The volunteer who couldn't stand up on Volunteer Sunday, and what our scoreboards miss What Amanda did when strangers asked what qualified her Why "the only Jesus someone sees" is smaller and more doable than it sounds Your one-week experiment: By Monday night, write your parish down in one sentence: the place or group of people where you spend your week. Under it, write the name of one person in it. Before Saturday, give that person one more degree of patience, listening, or kindness than you gave them last week. Links & resources: Show notes and full transcript: https://dereksanford.com/what-counts-as-church/ Watch Amanda Maphis's full interview: https://youtu.be/CWDrZa_83eMGet The Ordinary Altar, Derek's weekly email: https://dereksanford.com
45: Why Great Preaching Isn't Making Disciples
Is the Sunday sermon carrying more of your church's discipleship than it was ever meant to? Season 4 of Reinventing Church starts with the practice most churches build their whole week around. Derek traces preaching from Nehemiah's wooden platform to the modern weekend experience, and Dave Rhodes of Clarity House joins Derek and Danielle to talk about what a sermon that trains people actually looks like. This season, we're going looking for evidence that a better way already exists. Every other week, Dave Rhodes or Shane Stacey helps us rethink one core church practice. In between, you'll hear from everyday influencers, ordinary people bringing their faith into their workplace, neighborhood and friendships. In this episode: Why Scripture makes preaching central but never sufficient What Luther did after discovering his parishes couldn't recite the Lord's Prayer George Whitefield's "rope of sand" and the moment sermons shifted from formation to decision Dave's "say it, see it, try it, tie it" model, borrowed from coaching soccer A two-minute change any church can make after the sermon this Sunday Your one-week experiment: After the next sermon you hear, take two minutes before you leave. Write one sentence for each question: What is God saying to me? What am I going to do about it this week? Put the second sentence where you'll see it on Wednesday. Links & resources: Watch on YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB6NR8YPZETl2eSJnjTzsTth_sccfJFXQ&si=MiueutcJG-ssLGj9 Clarity House: https://clarityhouse.us Get The Ordinary Altar, Derek's weekly email: https://dereksanford.com
BONUS: Real Stories of Personal Calling
In this bonus episode, you'll hear snippets from interviews with real people who have walked through our "Handcrafted" training, discovered their two-word God-given calling, and are in the process of learning what that means wherever they live, work, learn, and play.
BONUS: Grace Church Dream Disciple Sermon 2 of 2
In this bonus episode, we are sharing part two of Pastor Derek's sermon to Grace Church on what it means to be a "Dream Disciple" in our specific context at Grace Church. This sermon will give you a deeper glimpse into our overall vision as we continue to reinvent church.
BONUS: Grace Church Dream Disciple Sermon 1 of 2
In this bonus episode, we are sharing part one of Pastor Derek's sermon to Grace Church on what it means to be a "Dream Disciple" in our specific context at Grace Church. This sermon will give you a good look at the practical discipleship principles and markers we are calling each person to as we continue to reinvent church.
BONUS: A Conversation with Dr. John Dickson
In this bonus episode, we sit down with Dr John Dickson, host of the podcast "Undeceptions," to talk about the state of the church in America and evangelism today. We also take some live Q&A with a studio audience.
40: MIC DROP Moments from Season 3 | Pre-holiday musings | Key Systems for any church | Personal retreat ideas
In Episode 40, Derek and Danielle unpack their top leadership “mic drop” moments of the season and turn them into simple, actionable practices for pastors. They also pull back the curtain on essential systems, a unique cultural moment of spiritual hunger, and a practical tool for planning meaningful half-day personal retreats.
39: From EVENTS to ENVIRONMENTS | Christmas Confabulation | Strategically Using Meetings | Auld Lang Syne...15 end of year questions
In this episode, we explore how churches can shift from event-driven ministry to environments where real discipleship happens. Hear from Shane Stacey, Andrew Silbert, and Sarah Burtt as they unpack practical ways to design worship spaces, mid-size trainings, and small groups that actually produce transformation.
38: From HERO PASTOR to HEALTHY CHURCH | Testing our Telekinesis | Programming Buildouts at Grace | Staff Values/Performance Matrix
If you’re longing for a healthier way to lead your church, this episode will encourage you. Dave Rhodes calls leaders to become hero-makers, and Pastor Jamaal Williams shows how everyday disciples can own real ministry in their own spaces. It’s practical, honest, and full of next steps you can use this week.
37: From SEEKER to SENDER | Pilgrim’s Progress | Exploring Development Roles | The Now to Next prayer tool
What if your church became known less for who it gathers and more for who it sends? This week’s Reinventing Church episode unpacks Dave Rhodes' challenge to move from seeker to sender, rethinking what we celebrate, track, and multiply. Then Derek talks with Chris Bellinger about how churches can train and release everyday missionaries right where they are. Plus, a behind-the-scenes look at Grace’s new development roles and a practical “Now to Next” prayer tool for friendship and discipleship.
36: From GROWTH to DEPTH | Lessons from the eurythmics | Mindmapping Job Descriptions | A Team Development Tool.
In this episode, Derek and Danielle, along with Pastor Sarah Burtt and the Clarity House team, tackle the shift from growth to depth. They unpack how to design discipleship environments that form people, not just fill rooms, share a behind-the-scenes look at mind-mapping job descriptions, and introduce four simple practices any leader can use to develop people, not just delegate tasks. Perfect for pastors and church leaders ready to rethink what “success” looks like in their ministry.
35: From CUSTOMER SERVICE to COACHING | Two truths and a truth | Brainstorm Buddies | Tool: Turning Complaints into Clarity
In this episode of Reinventing Church, Derek Sanford talks with Stephen Hay about how churches can shift from customer service to coaching, from keeping people happy to helping them grow. Learn how to spot consumer Christianity, create feedback-rich coaching cultures, and lead with courage instead of comfort. Plus, behind-the-scenes updates on Grace’s Awake the Lake vision and a new Tips & Tools on turning complaints into clarity.
Ep 34: From ASSIMILATION to ACTIVATION with Scott Michel
Instead of plugging people into roles, call them into purpose.
33: From ATTENDANCE to APPRENTICESHIP | This vs That | On-Staff Mentorship | And Taking on the Keyboard Warriors
From Northern Lights and “read-minds-vs-fly” debates to deep reflections on what truly counts in ministry, Derek and Danielle explore how churches can move from attendance to apprenticeship. Dave Rhodes redefines success, and guest Jeremy Adelman shows how an old Minneapolis church found new life by focusing on training disciples who multiply. Perfect for church leaders ready to measure growth by transformation not turnout.
32: From TEACHING to TRAINING | Falling into Autumn | This week at Grace | And how to have difficult conversations - yay!
Most churches are great at teaching but weak at training. In Episode 32 of Reinventing Church, Derek and Danielle kick off with fall vibes in Erie, then dive into Dave Rhodes on building training centers. Derek sits down with Pastor Mark Canada of Parkway Bible to talk about shifting from passive content delivery to active, experiential discipleship. Expect practical tools, a fourth grader’s gospel story, and a conflict tip you can use today.
31: From STAFF DRIVEN to LEADER MULTIPLYING | Have we gone too far? | Tapping the Untapped | 10 Recruitment Barriers
Is your church’s leadership pipeline multiplying or just maintaining? In this episode of Reinventing Church, Derek and Danielle sit down with Brent Minter, Lead Pastor of Keystone Church, to talk about making the critical shift from staff-driven ministry to leader-multiplying culture.
30: From COMPLEXITY to CLARITY | Must see TV| It’s Christmas time in the city | Livin on a prayer
Is your church’s discipleship pathway clear or just crowded? In this episode, Derek and Danielle talk with Phil EuBank of Menlo Church about moving from ministry complexity to clarity. Discover how to simplify your discipleship strategy, build shared rhythms, and guide people with a multiplication map instead of a ministry menu.
29:From SUNDAY to EVERYDAY | the most accurate personality test of all, becoming Influencers, and empowering team members with a 1:3:1 Tool
Sunday is important, but it’s not the finish line. In this episode, Derek and Danielle talk with Trey Taylor, Lead Pastor of City Hope Church, about the critical shift churches must make—from Sunday services to everyday discipleship. Trey unpacks how his team is reframing vocation as ministry, equipping everyday missionaries, and training leaders through tools like Dust: A Disciple’s Journey.
28: Season 3 Launch! | Cruel Summer | Shifting 11 Gears | Behind the curtain at Grace | Tips and Tools and we tango with The Terminator…but WE’LL be back.
In this kickoff to Season 3, Derek and Danielle set the stage for an exciting new chapter of Reinventing Church. They revisit the five original mind-shifting insights that sparked the whole podcast. They preview this season's theme of 11 pivotal shifts every church must make. This episode also introduces a brand-new Ministry Tools and Tips segment. Derek explores the theological boundaries of AI, offering both cautions and practical guidelines for church leaders
27: From Vision to Action: Crafting Our Future
This special audio-only bonus episode of 'Reinventing Church' features Danielle, Derek, and Aaron discussing the critical components of their church's vision frame for the staff and broader community. They delve into the mission, values, strategy, and measures that guide their ministry, all aimed at aligning with their 'Awake the Lake' 10-year vision. The episode outlines the mission of following Jesus and living out God's story every day, the core values that drive their decisions, the four-part strategy for discipleship, and the specific measures used to gauge success. The speakers emphasize the importance of each staff member and churchgoer understanding and embodying these ideas to achieve their vision of mobilizing 30,000 people by 2035 to bring gospel influence into everyday life.00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Episode00:55 Vision Frame Overview05:05 Mission: What Are We Doing?07:47 Values: Why Are We Doing It This Way?10:57 Strategy: How Are We Doing It?13:19 Measures: When Are We Successful?15:11 Vision Proper: Where Is God Taking Us?16:20 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
26: Season Finale! What have we learned so far in our transition to a missional model? | Televangelists | Lessons from a 40-Day digital fast | Holy Week Reflections
Derek and Danielle reflect on six lessons they've learned this season as they transition from a church growth model to a missional multiplication model. For full show notes, visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
25. A New Approach to Developing People | The Tape Ministry | A simple format for staff trainings | A Unique Approach to Baby Dedications
Beyond hopping people from program to program and calling it discipleship. How can the church actually devleop people into Christilikenss. Join this fascinating conversation with Diane Wright. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
24: How to make the shift from church programs to relational discipleship | Christian Woodstock | Defining a Multiplying Church | Considering a hot-off-the-presses Strategic Planning Tool
Dave Rhodes and Shane Stacey from Clarity House talk about how churches can unintentionally lead with programs and how to pivot to a relational disciple-making approach. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
23: Helping Churches Transition from Teaching Center to Training Center | 90’s “Contemporary” worship | Our Preaching Calendar Process | Roundtable Training Benefits
Dave Rhodes and Shane Stacey from Clarity House discuss the major shift happening in disciple-making churches to adopt an approach of training over teaching. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
22: Reimagining worship gatherings through a missional lens
How should we think about our worship liturgy if we have a room full of missionaries vs. a room full of consumers? A conversation with Andrew Silbert. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
21: Unleashing the Church Beyond Sunday
For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
20. Focusing a Big Church on Front Yard Missions, a Fixation on Choreography, Teaching Leadership vs. Training Leadership, and Leadership Meta-Metaphors
Focusing a Big Church on Front Yard Missions: an interview with Pastor Dan Nold. And how his role as a pastor and the focus of his church shifted through COVID.For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
19. Strategic Partnerships: Cooperation or Competition? Megachurch Merch, and a Theology of Life Experiences.
Cooperation instead of Competition among churches. An interview with Pastor Stephen explores the challenging dynamic of a big church and small church partnerships. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
18. Mega-church vs. Big church, How to be an embedded influencer, Zany youth group games, and giving new life to old ideas.
Embedded Influencer: We interview the energetic Angus Beibel about his exploits, reminisce about crazy youth group games, parse the differences between mega-churches and big churches, and resurrect some old church documents. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
17. Hollywood dreams, reassuring the team through the messy middle, How to Be a Savvy Follower, and honoring volunteers
Savvy Follower: Pastor Sarah interviews Steve Reisenauer while Derek and Danielle explore the church and pop culture, leading through the messy middle of a vision, and honoring volunteer leaders. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
16. Ripping phone books, bringing structure to deployed Christians, becoming a compassionate storyteller, and a quick but profound math lesson.
Megachurch memories of the greased-up power team and other evangelistice efforts. Then Derek and Danielle discuss some recent learnings from another church leader about how the church can support deployed Christians out side the church's walls. They welcome Pastor Sarah and Tracy Dailey to hear Tracy's amazing account of finding her tragedy in God's story and living out the Compassionate Storyteller discipleship role. Finally a quick lesson about ministry addition vs. multiplication. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
15. How to be an intentional friend, Are we actually making disciples of Jesus?, and releasing our discipleship vehicle into the wild.
Derek and Danielle continue to reflect on some cringey megachurch memories this time exploring the days of church skits and drama teams. The explore a Dream Disciple role of how to be an Intentional Friend in an interview with Pastor Scott and Dave Case. They discuss the value of stepping back out of the weeds and asking bigger discipleship questions and finally reflect on a recent training session with small group leaders. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
14. 3 Discipleship Lessons the Hard Way, Revenge of the Overhead Projector, and Making changes your leaders didn’t sign up for.
Derek and Danielle kick off Season 2 of the Reinventing Church Podcast. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
13. Six lessons from our Reinventing Church journey | What to do with "Let's Go Brandon" | Falalalala favorite Christmas songs
In this episode Derek and Danielle call to mind some of their favorite Christmas albums of all time. They field a listener question about leaving churches that become too political. They also reflect on 6 lessons they've learned so far almost one year in to their Reinventing Church journey. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
12. Helping Churches Find their Voice | Does a person need to be baptized to get into heaven? | Celebrating some wins.
In this episode Derek and Danielle explore Derek's weird fantasy football league, and talk about baptism and salvation and how they are different. Then special guest Stephen Hay talks about some recent work he's done in how to help big and small churches alike to find their voice in their region. Finally we celebrate some recent wins in our Awake the Lake vision. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
11. How can the church help marketplace leaders? | HOW to leave a church | A trick to aligning teams around core values
In this episode we react to the birth of Derek's first grandchild Ruby Jude! Derek offers 3 principles for HOW to leave a church. Then guest Mark Becker, an administrator at a large public high school, talks about his experience with the recent leadership intensive with a disciple-making bent. Finally, Danielle and Derek have a meltdown as they try to discuss aligning teams around Core Values. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
10. EQ in Discipleship and Leadership | Why to leave a church | And Derek’s PTSD over Annual Meetings
In this episode Danielle quizzes Derek on real Bible verses vs. AI pretenders. They explore good and bad reasons to leave a church. Then guest Pastor Justin Bleuer discusses the importance of EQ in ministry. And finally they reflect on the good and bad of annual meetings and Derek's lingering PTSD.For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
9. Discipleship in Different Sized Churches | Why don’t we do verse-by-verse preaching only?| What true ownership looks like on a team.
In this episode Derek and Danielle discuss favorite vacation spots. They wrestle with the inbox question about why doesn’t our church always preach verse by verse through the bible? Then we're joined by special guest Dr. Dan Nichols to talk about Pursuing discipleship in different-sized churches, and finally helping teams to own organizational change. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
8. Pursuing your calling in different seasons of life | Why does hell exist? | Reflections on our first discipleship orientation class
In this episode Derek and Danielle have another local theater experience to discuss. They also tackle a deep question from the pastor's inbox about the existence of hell. Then longtime pastor Mike Watson discusses his calling from the Jesus Movement days, through the megachurch era, and how he's helping struggling fathers in his retirement. Finally, they have some initial experiences with the new discipleship orientation exeprience at Grace. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
7. Understanding Your Church’s Local Predicament | Why do we do video preaching? | The launch of a new find-your-calling experience
In this episode Danielle and Derek talk about the difference between sportsy families and artsy families. They discuss the merits and struggles with video preaching. Then guest Aaron Lundberg talks about how churches and individuals can define and address the local predicaments in their community. Finally, they talk about Derek's nervous launch of a new "find your calling" experience. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
6. Redefining what it means to be “Called to Ministry” | Should the church tell people how to vote? | The rise and fall of vision Sunday
In this episode, after talking about their top 10 movies, Derek and Danielle get into the great American debate about how people should vote. Then, guest Andrea Bierer talks about an upside-down way of thinking about pursuing your calling in the workplace. Finally, we reflect on the good and the bad aspects of our recent vision on Sunday. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
5: How can churches measure the right things? | Is it a sin to buy and sell things in the church lobby? | Reminding people of the "why"
In this episode we discuss buying and selling things inside the church and wouldn’t Jesus be flipping over some tables? Then we welcome Pastor Scott Michel to the podcast to discuss sports medicine, outcome measures, and how these experiences can help to measure discipleship in the church. Finally, Derek and Danielle discuss the importance of finding the “why” when meetings go off the rails! For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
4: The Church as a Training Center | Why won’t the church announce my favorite cause? | Levels of Learning
In this episode Derek and Danielle talk about their personal coffee journeys, and answer some tough email questions about why the church doesn’t include every cause or ministry in their weekend announcements. The main conversation with Pastor Sarah Burtt focuses on the adjustments needed to make the church a training center and not just a teaching center. At the end Danielle and Derek reflect on a recent misstep and the proper order in which to innovate. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
3: Is loud worship music unspiritual? | How to know if God has released you to move on to something new | and Piloting new things.
In this episode we'll talk about why kids these days like their worship music so loud. The main conversation with Pastor Stephen Hay centers on how to know when it’s time to move on from a ministry and when it's time to stay and double down. We also reflect on the importance of piloting new things before rolling them out. Bonus: we get breaking news on Derek's preferred grandpa name. For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
2: Should we sing worship songs from churches we don’t agree with | How to know if it’s time to make big changes at your church | Setting short-term goals
In this episode, Derek and Danielle dive into some NFL and Swifties controversy, we cover why we sing songs that come out of churches that we might not totally agree with theologically, how to know when it’s time to reinvent YOUR church, and a look at how we’re setting short-term goals to accomplish big things at Grace. For full show notes, visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
1: CS Lewis or Taylor Swift | Do Christians have to side with Israel? | 5 mind-shifts about Re-Inventing Church | How to design LOVE in
In this episode Danielle tests Derek to see if he can tell the difference between Taylor Swift song lyrics and quotes from his favorite author, CS Lewis. They also tackle the hot topic of how to respond to people in the church who believe that the church should be more focused on the events happening in Israel that they currently are. Are Christians obligated by their faith to support Israel no matter what the cost? Then Derek reflects on 5 Mind-Shifting insights about Reinventing church that he’s learned over the past year of strategizing about a whole-church overhaul. Finally, they talk about a recent church baptism experience and consider what it might look like for churches to design love into all they do.For full show notes visit: https://dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
INTRODUCTION | Reinventing Church
Join Derek Sanford and Danielle Hartland as they kick off the Reinventing Church podcast, exploring their church’s shift from an attractional model to a disciple-making ministry.